http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#75e37c6f-ac40-44c8-9763-dde52f885e83 on the playa this year...just to clarify... Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:25:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#75e37c6f-ac40-44c8-9763-dde52f885e83 hannah 2007-01-24T13:25:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#94cd3f32-d5c1-4275-819c-546473d97b04 did i imagine it or did i encounter employees from starbucks in their uniforms giving out free shots of wheatgrass... erm.... anyone...? Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:24:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#94cd3f32-d5c1-4275-819c-546473d97b04 hannah 2007-01-24T13:24:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c2f40795-097c-4117-aae6-3a9d978fea80 yep, and thanks for going over that. Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:47:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c2f40795-097c-4117-aae6-3a9d978fea80 spectabilis 2006-11-07T22:47:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4ab3d811-41fb-4197-913a-24ebcd1b2cf7 Do you know where a clip of this ad is? I'd love to see it. A thorough search of YouTube showed up empty... Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:41:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4ab3d811-41fb-4197-913a-24ebcd1b2cf7 Tedward 2006-11-07T22:41:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#55f6e06d-65e0-4456-9278-042fc608ab71 if youre talking about _my_ post re: a lexus commercial that has been seen by a few people on the east coast +the northeast, this commercial apparently contains playa footage of the uchronia / waffle, not of the flower. im pretty sure this is what ladybee is talking about, as well. Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:59:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#55f6e06d-65e0-4456-9278-042fc608ab71 StacycatS 2006-11-07T21:59:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1c7b6631-ff7c-4980-9527-be975c576d47 I got a little confused too, but I swear i saw the Flower in chicago in some onlin video clip, maybe on Jupiter's site or something. That scould be where some people are getting the idea that the flower was in a commercial. And just to clarify something you said, the flower wasn't built For a one time event in chicago, it was built For burningman, it was Set up in chicago for a one time event.... Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:12:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1c7b6631-ff7c-4980-9527-be975c576d47 Tedward 2006-11-07T21:12:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6fec0e8b-bdaf-4d3c-be89-27ec73390ee5 spectabilis wrote: "my guess is you missed the "and it is yours to do what you want" part. and where did i imply that i thought you personally owed me something, and what was it?" it was when you wrote this: "like it or not, its not going to gather the best reception when people put time and effort into an event they believe is non-commercial and it somehow gets used for commercial purposes. despite what you intend to do with your art, and it is yours to do what you want, it sometimes comes across as inconsiderate and using the event to your own purposes, that are very different from what most others want." I mistakenly inferred that you were talking about the flower as an event that you put time and effort into and I apologize for my misunderstanding of your words. thank you for calling me on it and now that I am reading it again I see that you meant Burning Man as the event and that you feel either the flower or Uchronis used the event for commercial purposes. I dont' know why there are images of the waffle at Burning Man being used at a Lexus presentation, but people are starting to lump things together when one has very little to do with the other. to clear up any misunderstanding, the flower was built for a one time publicity event in Chicago. someone blogged about it. burning man wasn't mentioned or used in connection to the event. There is no footage of the flower on the playa or off the playa being used for any Lexus commercial, website or slide show. I keep hearing people on this thread get huffy about some Lexus ad they have never seen, probably because it doesn't exist. and it's not that I'm surprised, but I am tired at the kneejerk reaction that most people have expressed in this thread over seeing playa art out in the default world. To me that represents an emotional attachment to something that we don't own (which I can sympathize with but don't feel it's fair to blame artists for betraying an attachment we create for ourselves) or a naive belief that the playa and everything in it can exist in or is born out a neat little bubble, completely separate from the default world. hope that clears things up. Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:35:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6fec0e8b-bdaf-4d3c-be89-27ec73390ee5 Irenie 2006-11-07T19:35:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#51ac4ca1-601b-47f9-9d66-83bf47cd697d what? my guess is you missed the "and it is yours to do what you want" part. and where did i imply that i thought you personally owed me something, and what was it? my second guess is you missed my point, entirely. you are talking more about the considerable time and effort that went into the work, personally i think thats admirable. i guess i wont get sidetracked with a discussion about the strange sense of obligation you might think others should feel when they do it, and wont go into the huge ammount of effort others put into things themselves because i personally dont do it for some sense of entitlement. but i will go into my point, again, about doing something that naturally runs against what many people at the event value and believe, then reacting like its some sort of surprise and automatically dismissing criticism as invalid... .. if you want. although something tells me you are not honestly interested. Tue, 07 Nov 2006 07:39:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#51ac4ca1-601b-47f9-9d66-83bf47cd697d spectabilis 2006-11-07T07:39:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a0ef5aa4-f8a7-40f0-94c3-be120b92fc5c spectabilis wrote: "like it or not, its not going to gather the best reception when people put time and effort into an event they believe is non-commercial and it somehow gets used for commercial purposes. despite what you intend to do with your art, and it is yours to do what you want, it sometimes comes across as inconsiderate and using the event to your own purposes, that are very different from what most others want." excuse me, spectabilis, i'm not quite sure if your directing this message at the Do Lab... no, must be my mistake cuz I don't believe I saw you putting any time and effort into the flower this year or last year.... in fact I'm not quite sure what, if any personal investment you yourself put into either flower at all besides hopefully enjoying its presence on the playa. so let me assure you that I am absolutely one hundred percent certain that every single person who volunteered their time, poured their money, sweat buckets of perspiration putting this flower together does not in any way feel used or trivialized by the fact that Lexus wanted to use the flower in one of their promotional events. In fact I promise you that every single person that invested more time and energy than you sir, have personally contributed to the creation of the flowers, feels nothing but gratitude and appreciation every single time that these guys have the opportunity to show off our flower on or off the flower and be rewarded for their hard work in any way possible. let me get this straight for people that don't quite get it. any art that we see on the playa that we did not create ourselves - it is a GIFT. we don't own anything but our experiences. i find it offensive and rather arrogant that you imply you somehow are owed anything by ANY artist because you have your own beliefs and ideas about what Burning Man means to you. We owe the artists our gratitude and our thanks if we enjoyed their work. and that is what YOU have to accept. Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:00:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a0ef5aa4-f8a7-40f0-94c3-be120b92fc5c Irenie 2006-11-06T10:00:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#410593c0-4dbf-4cd3-8275-ee61d73d55ee I know what you mean re: pseudos and trolls, I just don't see anybody in this discussion that fits that description. Mon, 06 Nov 2006 01:07:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#410593c0-4dbf-4cd3-8275-ee61d73d55ee Neon 2006-11-06T01:07:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#cd29560a-c632-4b09-9d08-1571cda7999a >>I'm referring to the image used on the lexus site of Uchronia<< Okay, i just found them, sorry, they're dang hard to locate from lexus.com. I had to follow the original links in this thread and click through broken links to get there. But, yeah, they even put BM in the text. Doubtless this will see action from the board. Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:15:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#cd29560a-c632-4b09-9d08-1571cda7999a Tedward 2006-11-06T00:15:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#14fa7a29-087c-4fa5-ab9d-533ecfc609f6 Thanks LabyBee, we are awaiting your response. This is all very interesting & needs to be discussed. Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:05:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#14fa7a29-087c-4fa5-ab9d-533ecfc609f6 Karine 2006-11-06T00:05:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#ca15c26e-fd77-499b-8969-e639bb638081 Dear HiLife, please stop posting personal inquirys on public threads.... If you post in a public forum without prefacing your post with a NAME, you will get random responces. simple Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:52:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#ca15c26e-fd77-499b-8969-e639bb638081 Tedward 2006-11-05T20:52:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#039d1d20-8c2e-4634-af98-00ee4662d14f Actually, that was directed at the above mentioned "art trolls". The Pseudo phenomenon has been around since the early 80s. As soon as people discovered that there was no error checking on the information requested on computer communities, they started dodging questions, providing fake information, or creating several personalities. Without the possibility of real world feedback, these pseudos have taken uninhibited behaviour to whole new levels. This is not to say that anyone who doesn't have a phone number in their profile is a cretin, but the people being most abusive in this thread, are, predictably, without real info. Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:48:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#039d1d20-8c2e-4634-af98-00ee4662d14f Tedward 2006-11-05T20:48:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#48ef85f1-f6c4-4900-8239-a96f48883a2d Dear Ted, Please stop responding to an inquiry that is not directed at you, nor do you know the actual answer to. Thanks! Sun, 05 Nov 2006 18:18:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#48ef85f1-f6c4-4900-8239-a96f48883a2d $item.owner.firstName 2006-11-05T18:18:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7e1780c0-e96b-490c-9926-50b408837fd1 I'm sorry, Tedward, but I just don't think it's right or accurate to lump all us posters into a group of pseudos and dismiss us as if we're stupid or just complainers. I think this is a valid discussion that I, for one, am learning from. I care about burningman, I care about art, I am a thinking, growing person and I think this discussion is valuable and legitimate. I think it is especially important to hear the views from the creators of the flower. So I don't appreciate you trying to pacify them by discounting us. I'm sure you are doing it out of concern for their experience, and I can appreciate that, but please find another way to show that concern--it is not accurate that this is all silly, that none of us are real or have any brains, and that this topic has no real meaning or relevance. Neon Sun, 05 Nov 2006 17:39:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7e1780c0-e96b-490c-9926-50b408837fd1 Neon 2006-11-05T17:39:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#32540b12-34ab-49be-b602-7a3226988a22 not at anyone in particular Sun, 05 Nov 2006 07:15:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#32540b12-34ab-49be-b602-7a3226988a22 Jewel 2006-11-05T07:15:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#34e70cdc-4b49-4c62-97e7-ae9880181bc2 BMorg grants do not cover the total cost of art installations, period. Artists have to fund the rest on their own. "Selling out" is a snobbish concept, as if anyone is entitled to have a say in how soemone else pays their bills. So, whether Lexus, or any other corporation paid for any of it, is completely THEIR business. BTW - it's f&ckin hard to make real money on any of those events, cool as they sometimes are. You's be surprised how many of them end up only breaking even, or less, or WORSE, as in when they got shut down last year. And yeah, I am really tired of people criticising other people as not un-commercial enough, here and elsewhere, which was my point. THAT is being a poseur snob. If you think that's nasty, I really don't care. Sun, 05 Nov 2006 07:14:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#34e70cdc-4b49-4c62-97e7-ae9880181bc2 Jewel 2006-11-05T07:14:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2165ff4a-0fec-4167-861a-7acd09b6606d Good - if everyone who saw a Lexus thought of the flower, maybe they would smile a little, they would calm down a little, and the world would be a better place. I am sure at least some of the Chicagoans shivering in the cold February 2006 (which is hte EVENT that the flower peopel got paid for, NOT "taking it to BM") got a smile out of seeing a crazy 4 story flower wandering around, tweaking their brains, courtesy of Lexus (who by the way, also keep thousands more people employed...) Try this one: Radical non-judgment. BTW, I hope no one minds that I'm spending tonight cutting TV spots for Jeopardy to pay my bills --- but if they do mind, I don't care! Mwah, J! Sun, 05 Nov 2006 06:58:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2165ff4a-0fec-4167-861a-7acd09b6606d Jewel 2006-11-05T06:58:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d9d9ba35-95ce-4c55-b875-3e0e2dcb5b55 Okay, lemme get this straight first: rab's post says that he saw the Bm images in the gallery Shawn determines (incorrectly) that the images mentioned by Rab are being used in TV commerscial spots Lady Bee starts an investigation on the use of BM images for commercial use (TV or gallery) I got the impression that she was investigating Shawns alleged TV spots. But you're saying that it's only in the gallery. ...and you want to know it fhe gallery usage is part of what's controlled by BM? Is that about right? In which case, yes, I think so. the gallery is a sales tool and would fall under corporate use of imagery that is functionally the property of BM (or at least under their control). Heck, we got told by Alex Grey's lawyers that we had to pay for the rights to use his paintings as part of a promotional effort for a fundraiser we were hosting for him. This Lexus thing has GOT to be the same kind of thing or worse. Sat, 04 Nov 2006 22:11:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d9d9ba35-95ce-4c55-b875-3e0e2dcb5b55 Tedward 2006-11-04T22:11:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b5fb591c-d9b5-4a29-a31e-c456851d72fb that actually is NOT what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the image used on the lexus site of Uchronia on the playa and the loop of the building of the waffle that is in the actual exhibits. From what I know, all images taken on the playa are automatically considered copyrighted property of the Burning Man LLC and therefore tightly controlled for their commercial usage. So I am trying to figure out, is this usage that I would consider commercial on the website and the live exhibits, approved by the BMorg or are they getting around this by considering it purely artistic w/ a very present sponsor. Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:13:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b5fb591c-d9b5-4a29-a31e-c456851d72fb $item.owner.firstName 2006-11-04T21:13:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#23eda828-b0e7-4123-892e-4ec5dcc2397b I'd guess that the connection you're looking for here is that at least one person in Lexuz is a burner and is reporting art installations to the marketing department. But if you re-read lady Bee's post, you'll see that the footage used in thier latest commercial was an unauthorized use of BM footage. lexas is welcome to try throwing money at any burner artist they wish, but use of the BM logo and images from the event are a different matter (that's why Burning Gear got smacked). Sat, 04 Nov 2006 02:56:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#23eda828-b0e7-4123-892e-4ec5dcc2397b Tedward 2006-11-04T02:56:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#aa2c2dd6-7468-452d-b8d4-dafa1e1fbe8e I have a question. Since all of the media from BM seems to be tightly monitered in it's usage for commercial purposes (from what little I know). Is there some sort of direct connection between Lexus and the BMorg? Or is this something between the Arne and BM? Or is this not considered commercial usage and more of an exhibhit who's main sponsor is Lexus? I'm just curious. Sat, 04 Nov 2006 01:24:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#aa2c2dd6-7468-452d-b8d4-dafa1e1fbe8e $item.owner.firstName 2006-11-04T01:24:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b438612a-c6be-41f8-80a9-d31814968b8b Oooh, is that a corporate on corporate smackdown I see comin? Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:57:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b438612a-c6be-41f8-80a9-d31814968b8b Tedward 2006-11-04T00:57:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#049e0d71-31e2-4821-9786-e2a2b845b206 Our media department has spoken to Arne Quinze's partner, and apparently they gave permission for the gallery to use the images of Arne's past work at Burning Man online- but not for a TV commercial. We are trying to find out where the footage came from,and when we have more information we'll let you know. Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:32:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#049e0d71-31e2-4821-9786-e2a2b845b206 LadyBee 2006-11-04T00:32:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69102781-5282-41dd-8f2d-e3eba98d5752 "tomorrow morning when I wake up, as broke as I am, I am going to go downstairs and create something. I'm not going to look for a job..." Creation is the key to human existence. So much so I now live in and out of the wilderness. Sacrifices are made, but the return is 100 fold. The sunrises I get every day are enough to keep me from seeking a path back into the Matrix. Money flows through the filter of humanity and the corporations are the biggest filters. More than likely they will be the last ones to touch the money before it reaches you. No real point, just a couple o opinions. Fri, 03 Nov 2006 16:25:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69102781-5282-41dd-8f2d-e3eba98d5752 PUMA 2006-11-03T16:25:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5f232532-12a7-4060-9d6f-358782feb8fc i completely understand where you are comming from, but i hope you understand why so many people are going to be vocal against it. the non-commercial spirit is obviously one of the stronger and yet controversial beliefs at bman. like it or not, its not going to gather the best reception when people put time and effort into an event they believe is non-commercial and it somehow gets used for commercial purposes. despite what you intend to do with your art, and it is yours to do what you want, it sometimes comes across as inconsiderate and using the event to your own purposes, that are very different from what most others want. its getting hard for me to understand why people cant get that. if you disagree thats one thing, but to think you are not going to receive a certain ammount of criticism.. what better example of running against a non-commercial spirit do you need than picking ONE OF THE WORLDS BIGGEST CORPORATIONS? Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:21:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5f232532-12a7-4060-9d6f-358782feb8fc spectabilis 2006-11-03T10:21:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2e0d3f63-1279-49a0-b780-ddc525e92b1a thx for letting us know nice lady. Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:49:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2e0d3f63-1279-49a0-b780-ddc525e92b1a StacycatS 2006-11-03T03:49:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#da4b94a8-36a7-47be-a262-33b7d8599bb9 Wow! Well said Rab......really well said. So is this Lexus sponsorship promoted through television commercials or what. I had never even heard of it til I came across this thread. If that's the case, ya'll all need to turn off the T.V. more. I would hate to have that beautiful the flower tainted for me, the way it always shows up a the most auspicious occassions..... If it's on billboards and such, well, my bad. I know it can be more difficult to live in a commercial free zone for you city folk. I guess I will be more concerned when Lexus starts following me out onto the playa. *~S~* Thu, 02 Nov 2006 23:11:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#da4b94a8-36a7-47be-a262-33b7d8599bb9 Shawn 2006-11-02T23:11:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b85ff87b-f741-45f6-b140-f3c63c298f45 The Uchronia project was funded by Jan Kriekels - the the originator, director and funder of the Uchronians. Jan does global community art projects every year, and currently is seeking participants for his next project which will not be on the playa. You can learn all about them here: http://www.uchronians.org/ . Arne Quinze collaborated with Uchronia on the Message out of the Future, but he's not part of Uchronia - that's Jan's thing. Arne is an independent designer who is clearly promoting his work via the Lexus tie-in. I have just learned from Jan's communications director that they were not informed of Arne's connection with Lexus. They gifted Uchronia to the playa very much in the spirit of what we do: creating community through art-making. Apparently Arne has a different intent. We are looking into this; stay tuned. Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:31:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b85ff87b-f741-45f6-b140-f3c63c298f45 LadyBee 2006-11-02T22:31:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2627ab69-d253-4eff-a2a2-f55365074c0f This discussion is full of surprises. The world is full of contradiction. I'm actually the technical director for the 460 Degrees Gallery. We're traveling to 4 cities around the states and Arne Quinze's team is building mini-waffle at each stop to promote the new Lexus and two other international artists besides Arne. I took on the job only knowing that Arne's team was involved. The first time I turned on the media, I have to admit, it made me sick to my stomach. There it was: a time-lapse of burningman looping everyday on a plasma television in the corner. I questioned my own involvement, but slowly came to my current position. First, I've been a part of bringing the El Circo camp to BM since 1998. Every year we'd bust our asses and spend all our money and only received a few free tickets the last couple years. The truth is, we could not afford to do it last year due to financial lackings. Every year, BM makes us broke. Every year the people at the top of the BM Corporation are getting rich. This is not a community festival. This is a business. A damn good one, but still a business. Second, Lexus is paying me instead of making me buy a ticket. They've taken money from the sales of their cars and put it directly into my music studio, my rent, and plenty of groceries. Without another job, I'd be flat broke the way I've been after BM every year. Third, where does it say that the BM experience is an earth loving anti-corporate ceremony? The festival is born from the fat of the land. The entire experience is based on a foundation of waste, free time, and free expression in the shadow of a dying world. I doubt such a festival could possibly exist in a famine-ridden desert undone by gangs of greed and genocide. Thousands of generators burning fossil fuels into the night. Food, wood, and fabrics all smoking under the hum. We have all made a choice to coexist as humans. Natural participants in the cycle of the living experience. After a few nights of doubt over my involvement in this project, I've decided I have more important ideals than worrying about the defaming of this supposed Burner's Dream. I've decided instead to live a life of love. To appreciate this gift that is my friends and family. To take a shower and not punish myself with guilt over the last drop of fresh water. I guess I felt a need to express a few of my feelings, while at the same time not trying to defend Lexus or myself. We all have a personal choice to support or boycott any cause or business. Just gotzta make a livin. Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:10:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2627ab69-d253-4eff-a2a2-f55365074c0f Rab 2006-11-02T22:10:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#16f7d843-2b1a-42a6-b239-2527fbb180a1 the lexus promo at 460 Degrees Art Gallery is having a closing party tomorrow (Friday) at 7 PM, with food and drinks and another huge waffle installation that can be seem in a few of these pics running around tribe. The address for 460 Degrees is: 460 Degrees 269 Beverly Dr. Beverly Hills I will be there. I think it may go until 10 or 11 PM or so. Hi PUMA!! Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:43:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#16f7d843-2b1a-42a6-b239-2527fbb180a1 erica 2006-11-02T20:43:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8811e105-cd15-45af-8433-3c7accaee59f reports are being posted in to various regional lists on the east / norhteast coast about a 2 min lexus commercial where artists talk about creativity, etc... with PLAYA footage. i havent seen it myself as i dont watch much teevee. but its been seen by people in new york and chicago... this is a little different than creating a similar project for a commercial entity, or having a photo of a playa installation on the artist bio... rumors are also being kicked around the ranger list that the waffle was paid for by lexus, that this Arne Quinze acted alone and the other belgians are pissed. all unsubstantiated rumors. it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds... Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:25:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8811e105-cd15-45af-8433-3c7accaee59f StacycatS 2006-11-02T20:25:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8af79a43-e550-480a-9868-4fa307071f45 we could always just pave over the playa and call it blacktop city. Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:13:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8af79a43-e550-480a-9868-4fa307071f45 StacycatS 2006-11-02T20:13:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c936cc3-9764-4ab7-b40d-eec46bad168a My small company specializes in Dust Control. Can anyone help me get "sponsored" to control all that nasty dust on the main road into BRC? Can anyone help get me sponsored to control and end all that dust around Center Camp? That would be great! We could make a bunch of dough improving health conditions at BRC and then incorporate it into a major marketing campaign! DustDr Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:01:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c936cc3-9764-4ab7-b40d-eec46bad168a $item.owner.firstName 2006-11-02T20:01:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5471380e-2920-47ea-9f61-a4e3fe9f84c6 if 'the public' is at a regional burn, they are no longer 'the public'. they are burners. Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:35:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5471380e-2920-47ea-9f61-a4e3fe9f84c6 StacycatS 2006-11-02T18:35:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d69718b1-182f-42c7-a0b0-f529d2670742 corporations are owned by people who hold stocks, with everyday decisions beinng handled by hired help. what's the difference if stockholder money goes towards funding one artist, or all those stockholders visit a regional decompression party and pay at the door? you're still taking money from non-burners to fund burner activities. ---or should I use smaller words? Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:24:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d69718b1-182f-42c7-a0b0-f529d2670742 Tedward 2006-11-02T18:24:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0d5e622c-fb67-443e-a6f6-52fba6a7989e //Frankly, I don't see a difference between you guys taking Lexus money and our local regionals being open to the public.// congratulations, youve just made the biggest logic leap in this thread! wtf?! Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:17:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0d5e622c-fb67-443e-a6f6-52fba6a7989e StacycatS 2006-11-02T18:17:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7fbe844e-dab7-4c90-8c14-f55bd0e1c0c2 Jesse,Marsi, etal: Please don't take the art trolls here too seriously. If these people weren't here bitching about Lexus, they'd be watching a football game saying how they would have pulled off the Quarterback Sneak better. There's always gonna be people who are the "sit on your butt and kvetch" type rather than the 'get out and do it' type. Frankly, I don't see a difference between you guys taking Lexus money and our local regionals being open to the public. Instead of one entity shelling out money, several hundred are putting in much less. And instead of the money going to the artists, it's going back up the BM stream. The same people who thing the Flower shouldn't be "allowed" back should probably also be bitching that the regional burns should only be open to current ticket stub holders. further, those burningman fundraisers that everone seems to favor should also be available only to those people who have tickets. Face it, it's silly. Most of these people are pseudos with no accountability attached to their tribe personality. Heck many of them are just plain trolls looking to stir up s#!t. Just look around,half the people bitching are the same ones who support cutting cables at rave camps, ending shirtcocking, burning the man on thursday, etc. Just breathe.... I know it's tough to hear, but as personal as it feels, it's not directed at you. Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:10:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7fbe844e-dab7-4c90-8c14-f55bd0e1c0c2 Tedward 2006-11-02T18:10:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5b87a9da-8a2f-4ba4-83fc-89aab897b45c I would like to point out for the record that there was no flower commerical... what everyone is referring to is a video put together of the flower on the street of Chicago. The project in Chicago was a 1 day publicity stunt where we set the flower up on the busiest street in Chicago and ran it for an entire day. Lexus saw it as an opportunity to garner attention for whatever reason. We, the artists, saw it as an opportunity to put our art in front of thousands of people who would never EVER see anything this beautiful if we weren't given the opportunity by Lexus.. We poured months of blood, sweat and tears as well as all of our money into that project so forgive us if we want as many people to see it as possible. Especially non burners who are more likely to freak out because they have never experienced anything like that in their entire lives. You all know how it feels to see the flower rise and dance and open and close. Its breathtaking. It's awe-inspiring. It's just fucking amazing! So we will use every opportunity that arises to put it in front of more people, to show them that there is more to life than their day jobs and their tv shows, and to show them that anything is possible and their dreams can be reached. Cheesy as it may sound, this is the ultimate goal of the artists behind this project. And for the record, if any of you actually knew how broke all of us are, then you would understand why we need funding to do these sorts of things. If we were independently wealthy, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But tomorrow morning when I wake up, as broke as I am, I am going to go downstairs and create something. I'm not going to look for a job... So discuss all you want. Complain all you want. Either way, if you can't look at the flower and see past Lexus, I'm sorry. Look harder. The flower is still there. Jesse Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:48:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5b87a9da-8a2f-4ba4-83fc-89aab897b45c JeSse 2006-11-02T17:48:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3cee1780-1bb0-4f98-b4c2-5895d3b66af6 Art reflects life, people adapt and make over artistic things (copy) The Playa is basicaly a field test of ideas. those white tarp yerts that hold up so well in the wind and dirt.. (I now own one) Burners working out the details of how to make it work.. then sell the products. I ask you would it be better to support a Burner business or a corporate enterpise? Why are we eating our artists alive and spitting on their bones in this foram? would you be offended hiring a burner sheet rocker? who then goes out on the playa and builds a dance stadium out of 2 x 4 and sheet rock.. to then build one just like it for a bar in LA? What about that Opra star who belts out an ARia near the man and then returns to the stage in New York City? Just because it is big art and it costs a ton of money to get it to the playa and you think it is cool or even if you feel it is Gosh. The amazement of just seeing it there, isn't it worth it? Tons of Rock suspended from a few chains. A woman and Child standing over 100 feet tall with fire dripping from their hands. A fire cannon that singes your hair from 200 feet away.... ok been there done that own the tee shirt and am bored with it..... screams of "ENTERTAIN ME!" well sorry that is not what BM is about.. What are YOU bringing to contribute to the collective? What are you as a partisipant doing. It does not have to be much.. maybe stand on a corner of the city and do mime. walk with a drum and piper through the streets of BRC.. yes there is a difference between BIG art and performance art I would be amiss to say performance art was less worthy...... but it is cheaper to get it to the playa. Borg 2 was to be the end of the discusion of the personal Art vs the Supported Art.. Guess what? it was a flop.... nice idea, nice principal but reality wins out.. it costs money to get this stuff to the playa and back. The idea that Burning man is a NO Cash event or that it ever was is a myth .. without cash Burning man is just empty desert and dust. the Eleatests can afford to look down on the sponcered art and say "I take no money from anybody to make my art" fine! Make burning man an oligarchy that only the rich can come that they on their own funds make art.... I make a few extra bucks a year enough to pay for my gas, food, rent and time away from work by selling my creations. I am a corporate whore tramp artist who will be tossed aside as a bun when my work is no longer valued or wanted... I love my job.. I am doing what I have always wanted to do and get paid for it. You will not see me bitching about how much a fellow burner artist gets paid for a project I am just glad they are being paid and have food and shelter. Reality check.. it is better to be a Corporate whore tramp artist with a full belly and the lattidtude to make what ever I wish to make than sit behind a desk and madly smash puter keys because I am frustrated by my lack of effort to move out of a bad job situation. It is indeed sour grapes in the grip of all of this.. I know what I like... i walk away from the other stuff. the soluition is easy.. don't buy a Lexus.....(as if I could affford one in the first place ...) We all should be out trying to figure out how to move all that Coporate loose cash into burner hands.... :) just a thought... Mark Omyg the stonecarver Thu, 02 Nov 2006 01:41:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3cee1780-1bb0-4f98-b4c2-5895d3b66af6 Omyg 2006-11-02T01:41:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#62b2bd80-555d-4530-8899-ddba750f1c5e ... always a grey zone... Let's flip that over, there are TV shows dedicated to commercials, usually foreign ones, but highlighting the very best available (like superbowl ones). If the industry acknowledges them as something more than plain ad space, could they -become- art? Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:56:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#62b2bd80-555d-4530-8899-ddba750f1c5e Tedward 2006-11-01T21:56:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#24a95386-b403-45e7-86d7-c8b073339152 //Make them paint over the corporate logo at bm...to show? ya you bet.. But later on you may see that new tested cool image (logo) out in the default world and say..."I met that dude! whooooo hoooooo Burner making a change in the default world!!!" // in theory this sounds cool... but what if someone creates large scale art on the playa (self-funded, no grants) with the specific intent to use the project or its image in an advertising campaign after the event? not that anyone has done this successfully... yet. but it doesnt seem that far off from what is going on with the waffle. the intent seems a bit more... icky, to me. woudl you still tink it was cool then, or would you feel a bit used? Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:32:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#24a95386-b403-45e7-86d7-c8b073339152 StacycatS 2006-11-01T21:32:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0ae0fda-f7bb-47bc-89b4-4e838af33a6d BM is a Vaccume? Or is it a celebration? Is the art created for the moment and distroyed or kept and recycled? Are we as partisipants only allowed to express ourselves (what ever form) for those at the Man and suckle only from the titty of the BMorg? Many of us (artists) are fortuanatly coporate whores selling our skills our tallents to "The Man". We make the art for TV , The web, the opera, those messed up street signs for the Highway department. Our employers reluctantly give us up for two or more weeks while we dance and sing and make art to burn .. to live for that moment. The we slunk back broke, tired, subserviant to slave for a year until that magical week appears on the wall calandar. Even making art out of trash is getting harder to find material since the big push to recycle a lot of the really cool trash metal is being melted down to make engine blocks and new pop cans. I think it is reather cool we get to see the art first.. then know it is going to be messed up with playa dust and take a whole lot of cash to clean it up to be "viewable by corporate consumers" .. "the default world is what you get when you choose not to make a difference" my new learned statement for 2006. We as artists and partisapants are affecting a change in the default world, we are seeing our artists go mainstream and not kept in poverty in the side lines... Fire troups perfoming in Vegas. Big art off the playa on the docks of cities.. EVEN my home town of 15,000 now has burner are lining the sidewalks and in the courts of eateries and bars.. it blows me away... to see it now in the default world. Make them paint over the corporate logo at bm...to show? ya you bet.. But later on you may see that new tested cool image (logo) out in the default world and say..."I met that dude! whooooo hoooooo Burner making a change in the default world!!!" my two cents.. Omyg the stone carver (ya I have burner art being shown in the default world) Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:12:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0ae0fda-f7bb-47bc-89b4-4e838af33a6d Omyg 2006-11-01T17:12:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#748d4ea7-6ab3-47ad-90bc-8b67314e2173 >>At least now the poo is virtual.<< So that makes it all right to step into a community and start flinging, Right? Sheesh, Trolls everywhere nowadayz... Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:18:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#748d4ea7-6ab3-47ad-90bc-8b67314e2173 Tedward 2006-10-31T23:18:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8e391f3b-bc08-4667-ad75-55351e8266f5 Praise The Corporation All Heal! And Baby Jeebus too...for we would be but beasts in the wood without them - flinging poo. At least now the poo is virtual. Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:13:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8e391f3b-bc08-4667-ad75-55351e8266f5 orlando! 2006-10-31T23:13:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2929c4fa-2160-43c3-a828-04c0c30bcba2 Ya know, a lot of bad things have been said about burningman, too: satanism, ecological disaster, flagrant indecency.... Yes, corporations are in it for self interest, but I doubt any of them set about the day looking for a community to destroy. It's about bottom lines. If they don't make a profit, the shareholders (that's anyone with a 401k plan) will end their carreers. Simple. Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:08:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2929c4fa-2160-43c3-a828-04c0c30bcba2 Tedward 2006-10-31T23:08:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c9fbbac-eed4-4377-85bd-60cceedc0651 Not all corporations a are bad! Most of the big ones are. What bad? stripping communities of resources of an economic base underming soveirgnty as in when a state wants to protect its envinroment, corporations try to get laws past that make the public pay for 'future lost earnings' as if earning in capitalism are guaranteed somehwere.... laissez faire my ass.... underming labor laws using child labor in countries where workers get killed when they try to organize setting up regulation free zones so they can poison the envirnment and exploit humans with NO oversite... we're not talking merely of the economic form called a 'corporation' which covers very small operations... we're tlaking about the entities that Jeffereson feared as totally harmful to self determination of a nation and peoples...as in: I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. Thomas Jefferson Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:07:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c9fbbac-eed4-4377-85bd-60cceedc0651 orlando! 2006-10-31T23:07:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b3b658b9-0897-493b-b10d-29bd84489d38 The solution is simple: Corporate promotion teams should not be allowed to come to BM. Any group which is associated with a corporate promotion team should not be allowed to come to BM. Anybody who works for a corporation should not be allowed into BM Anybody whose income is dependant (directly or indirectly) on a business corporation should not be allowed into BM. Anybody who receives income from BMORG (which is a business corporation) should not be allowed into BM. Anybody who receives income from a BM related art project should not be allowed into BM. Only people who do not have any income should be allowed to come to BM. Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:07:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b3b658b9-0897-493b-b10d-29bd84489d38 Gypsy 2006-10-31T23:07:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4af62510-574c-4d4f-9ae3-7dcaef4d5d03 SO Marsi -I really dnop't mean this to be an attack, I am honestly curious. Do you want my first thought upon seeing the flower to be of a Lexus? That's how these things work. Lexus - the car of "fuck you capitalism of the 21st century" is now irretrevably connected to the flower in my mind, right next to the Waffle...I know I know Euchronia (which was supposedly about the destructiveness of our consumer culture....) I say that without snark as a simple statement of fact. That meme has replaced the awe I felt and a lot of the gratitude I felt for the flower...totally. Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:53:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4af62510-574c-4d4f-9ae3-7dcaef4d5d03 orlando! 2006-10-31T22:53:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#351e903b-a801-45da-b648-adc7cbf772be Is the Man an advertising icon... a visual idea... sure...is it used to mask a great deal of indecent behanvior and by that I mean what transational coporations do to peopl eand the planet...NO! I think there is a big distinction to be made. I think NOT making those distinctions or tryingto blur and sxay its all teh same and all good... belies a lack of critical thinking. All movements/communities use symbols. TRansnational Corporations use symbols to destroy human scale commuites and to rob those communites of thier resources and economic base. Looking jsut to one example the global move to privatise water... what an obscenety. Memes are tools for good and bad actions -- Its crititcal to know the difference. Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:32:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#351e903b-a801-45da-b648-adc7cbf772be orlando! 2006-10-31T22:32:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d777303f-3c7a-4938-9108-74381f3aa752 CTP and tedward - being deliberately obtuse is just another way to troll. ive been very clear with my intent, if you continue to insist on taking personal offense despite my clarifications then so be it. theres clearly nothing that i can say, so sit there and stew in it for all i care! Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:54:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d777303f-3c7a-4938-9108-74381f3aa752 StacycatS 2006-10-30T18:54:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#81dfb06e-f80d-46cc-bb55-885481645837 -+- I can't remember where we were. -+- We were debating the invasion of North Dakota to preemptively keep them from using the world's largest single stockpile of nuclear weapons. I think. Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:12:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#81dfb06e-f80d-46cc-bb55-885481645837 Reverend Zed 2006-10-28T18:12:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1618b687-f850-458d-abb0-faf49a2bd646 Lets take it back to Rootz. I paint bodies with wet Playa and my finger. I and m' Tribe create camp, car, and art from poachin junkyards. I cook my food on a stove I made from an olde stainless steel beer keg. I wear moccasins I made with m' hands. I share music I create with m' friends. B Man doesn't "need" to try so hard to impress. Uh huh! ;P or Unt uh! I can't remember where we were. Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:52:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1618b687-f850-458d-abb0-faf49a2bd646 PUMA 2006-10-28T10:52:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b723360c-5f7c-4d7e-9dc9-d524163ac018 I thought we did this cuz we want to. Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:45:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b723360c-5f7c-4d7e-9dc9-d524163ac018 PUMA 2006-10-28T10:45:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#64b7e8ca-57be-44f4-bc35-efb244124382 need? Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:44:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#64b7e8ca-57be-44f4-bc35-efb244124382 PUMA 2006-10-28T10:44:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#33457eb3-0afa-4eb4-aba2-e23d5504fbb8 Troll is as troll does. At least I'm self correcting. You're just perpetually wrong. Sas Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:14:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#33457eb3-0afa-4eb4-aba2-e23d5504fbb8 Sasquatch 2006-10-28T02:14:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4942a6fe-9f00-4167-9243-f5af86a836ba Who are you? Dr. Science of Deutschspreck? No, really, all of my German comes from Zappa albums. Naughty naughty naughty talk. Sofas, cyborgs...pigs... By the way, I am listening to Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 13 in E-flat major Op. 27, No. 1 Now, there was a good German with a penchant for taking things in new directions, yet I digress. My dad had a orange Audi station wagon in the early 70's. It was the only one around, and you always knew when it was coming up the block. Later, he had a couple of Audi 100 sedans. Also, germaine to this discussion of things German and advertisement, the film, Advertising Rules. Fucking hilarious! Victor Vogel is a young punk who winds up at a Frankfurt ad firm and doing a campaign for Opel. Now, that's a car you don't see much of in North America. Horch? I thought they were part of the Porche family. What if Horch was Porche and Porche was Horch? It would be a Horch Boxster or Horch Cayenne or Horch 944. Why the Cayenne anyway? The Tuareg is so much more of a manly SUV and even has a V10 diesel. All right, this is just getting plain silly and I have other things to do than debate foreign language idioms and Audi. Damn sweet cars, though. Ich bin Maroon! Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:23:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4942a6fe-9f00-4167-9243-f5af86a836ba tim, the mighty 2006-10-28T00:23:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b6acc62d-1dfa-4794-a075-fd485852b58f The wood was a corporate byproduct, shipped by a corporation, and assembled by corporate workers. No it wouldn't.... Further, if there WERE no corporations, we'd have no products polluting the environment, No cities, no factories and all the time in the world to do art for the sake of art (oh, and farming), so, no, it wouldn't exist because ther would be no need for it. :P Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:56:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b6acc62d-1dfa-4794-a075-fd485852b58f Tedward 2006-10-27T21:56:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8a81aeaa-5488-423a-8926-1bcb4308a604 "Puma, a corporation (probably two or three) provided the wood for the first man and all subseuent ones. No, there wouldn't.... :)" Yeah that was one option that presented itself, but the Waffle proved that a little resourcefulness can go a long way. Options and Choices are two VERY different things. Yes there would! Nyah! ; P Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:52:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8a81aeaa-5488-423a-8926-1bcb4308a604 PUMA 2006-10-27T21:52:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#26fdb845-96d6-45f3-a202-608525b32631 Puma, a corporation (probably two or three) provided the wood for the first man and all subseuent ones. No, there wouldn't.... :) We are the Corp, you will be assimilated. Resistance is encouraged, you will be filmed, filed and cataloged for future futility training. Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:46:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#26fdb845-96d6-45f3-a202-608525b32631 Tedward 2006-10-27T21:46:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b42af34-0f9a-4a0f-acf3-8d325052503a >>owever once the art is used in a mass advertising medium it really does not belong back on the playa<< You're right Kent, we should get rid of the flower, the Venus, the coleman stoves and camp gear, all the cars, RVs and Uhauls. Plus we should get rid of the Techno, rock and country music, heck the Turntables and speakers too. Let's not forget about the actors who've appeared in advertising, and the celebs that hawk products. Let's leave behind all building materials, foods that weren't hand grown, bottled water, alcohol, blah blah blah.... Think it through... get back to us.... Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:43:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b42af34-0f9a-4a0f-acf3-8d325052503a Tedward 2006-10-27T21:43:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1ec9f320-4d31-43ea-a046-2f20be0e87d6 "There would be no Burning Man without corporations, get over yourself, hippie!" Uh, yeah, there would. Get into it corprorate whore!!! Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:03:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1ec9f320-4d31-43ea-a046-2f20be0e87d6 PUMA 2006-10-27T21:03:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#51f793dd-f124-4074-adcd-58f7b770707e Sweet Jeebus, I can't believe this thread is still alive. Golly, they rented the flower to a corporation for a night - the horror! The shame! God forbid any artist ever take money for displaying their work. More power to them for accepting a fee for displaying the flower, too bad it wasn't enough to bring them out of debt. I personally welcome it's return to the playa - it's amazing art that they gave to *US*. Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:53:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#51f793dd-f124-4074-adcd-58f7b770707e Reverend Zed 2006-10-27T20:53:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#89b594e6-b1f6-41fc-afd7-f3f531a7ed9c Hello Timmah, Have had this argument with my girlfriend already (meaning the Uchronia/LEXUS connection) but I wanted to respond to your translation of "Audi." Audi is actually a Latin word that means listen or hark. The original name for the company was Horch, which is the family name for the founders of the company. Horch is German for hark. Sorry to fuck with what have been by far the most entertaining posts in this sometimes searing and uncomfortable thread but I had to be a word-Nazi and correct you. Mach's gut und Tchuss! Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:38:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#89b594e6-b1f6-41fc-afd7-f3f531a7ed9c Luis 2006-10-27T20:38:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0d3e955-6e8c-45ab-b601-8ccd61e4c1ef Early in this thread I posted a quote from Larry because I thought it was important to recognize that Burning Man is supposed to be an antidote to the commodification of culture, and I did not feel good about the flower and the waffle as corporate imagery. After reading through this thread I now believe these artist deserve whatever compensation comes there way after the event is over. However once the art is used in a mass advertising medium it really does not belong back on the playa. I just don't understand how art work that has been brand identified could possibly contribute to the Burningman ethos. Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:21:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0d3e955-6e8c-45ab-b601-8ccd61e4c1ef Kent 2006-10-27T19:21:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1f137eeb-9ead-4942-9af7-96810472e2d9 It pays $750 /day. Not kidding. Casting today. But I realize no one here wants to sully their bank accounts with cash from Toyota. Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:36:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1f137eeb-9ead-4942-9af7-96810472e2d9 Jewel 2006-10-27T18:36:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#27f754ae-18ba-45ae-a2db-0891c99177a4 I've had to learn to pretend that people aren't trying to sell me things. I go to street fairs and pretend the tents are theme camps and the people in them really want to exchange our common interests. I try not to feel that obligation to buy something because I'm wasting their time. I pretend they got as much out of our interaction as I did. Even tho they resorted to showing me a book they have for sale about their product when they finally realized I wasn't going to buy their product. I think that's the same thing I'll have to do with the flower now, try not to feel my imagined pressure to buy something. Because it's really not there if I don't let it be. They still made the flower for me to be awed by. Which I was, 2 years in a row. If I saw it next year, I'd probably feel like it was being forced on me, and I would want to block it out of my perception. But I don't want to do that at burning man. Thats what's so great about the place, I let everything in. But the flower, if I let it in, I might accidently buy a Lexus while I wasn't protecting myself. So I guess as long as they're not selling them there, I'll be ok. Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:25:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#27f754ae-18ba-45ae-a2db-0891c99177a4 :D'Nah 2006-10-27T17:25:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5cc6f896-1020-48da-9bdf-fa6530bfb3a4 << Corporations are colonizing our minds with their crap. And some of you are okay with it? >> Yup, every time my Ameritrade holdings get a dividend, I'm okay with it! That's why I can afford to pay $300 to see the man burn! There would be no Burning Man without corporations, get over yourself, hippie! Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:04:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5cc6f896-1020-48da-9bdf-fa6530bfb3a4 $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-27T17:04:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0fbe0be3-3e2d-4c9c-90ef-9c48100f015f It's so gross. I feel pimped. Now every time I see the flower I will think of Lexus. Every time I see a Lexus I will think of the flower. Corporations are colonizing our minds with their crap. And some of you are okay with it? Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:44:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0fbe0be3-3e2d-4c9c-90ef-9c48100f015f Ember 2006-10-27T16:44:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2f8f48ed-d233-485a-85fe-9d60924d3242 <<<gezus christ, CTP, why do you keep bringing the thread back to YOU.>>> Well, because you dropped this little broad-brush bombshell "keep in mind - burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves." and in 16 words insulted me and every one of my campmates, and 99.9% of everyone I personally know on the playa, and what we stand for. As far as bringing it back to me, I only use my situation as an example as it is the one I can speak authoritatively about. <<<why are you all obsessing on the words used in my original statement and not the intent behind it?>>> Ah yes - read your intent - not your actual blathering. If "all" of us are unable to read your intent then maybe your intent is obscure...or maybe your abrasive presentation sanded all of the visible intent away. I am left asking - why on earth would YOU travel all that way to spend a week with 40,000 self-righteous hippies who don't want to pay for anything? Fri, 27 Oct 2006 04:59:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2f8f48ed-d233-485a-85fe-9d60924d3242 CTP 2006-10-27T04:59:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b84be0cf-9f76-4a27-a7c4-9b774d70075a None of your examples address the point I was making...however, I have changed my feelings about the topic anyway, so everything i said is now moot... Fri, 27 Oct 2006 03:03:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b84be0cf-9f76-4a27-a7c4-9b774d70075a Neon 2006-10-27T03:03:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0a2b7a0-64cc-4a59-82a8-21f5c08c4f95 What about someone who learns to weld for burning man and goes on to be a welder professionally? What about a marketing person that quits thier job to promote burning man events for a living? What about someone in advertising that comes back from a burn inspired and gets ideas for commercials? Or a medical doctor that comes back from BM & decides to treat her patients with more respect? The whole purpose of burning man has always been to inspire and influence artistic creativity and alternative ways of living. God knows our american ideology has screwed up the planet beyond repair. Its time for a new global ideology, the people want it and need it. One day Lexus will produce a hydrogen car and every home will have el wire & led lights. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:43:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0a2b7a0-64cc-4a59-82a8-21f5c08c4f95 Les 2006-10-26T22:43:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#efefe1e3-ed24-41c8-a419-3a88fda82199 >>why are you all obsessing on the words used in my original statement and not the intent behind it?<< BECAUSE THE TEXT IS ALL WE HAVE!!! We cannot read your "intent" behind anything you type. There is not tonal inflection, and no body language. You must learn to elucidate your intent through WORDS. And even then, some people will appear to fail to get your point, choosing to deconstruct the argument through which you came to it. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:35:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#efefe1e3-ed24-41c8-a419-3a88fda82199 Tedward 2006-10-26T22:35:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bb0883b8-870f-4a38-8b6f-31286709f80e Hey, UncFB, Well, welcome to tribe... bacon wallet?! ha ha! enjoy! Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:01:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bb0883b8-870f-4a38-8b6f-31286709f80e Neon 2006-10-26T22:01:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e88e9b2f-7de8-4b49-9055-d000ab6a8dd7 touche'! Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:25:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e88e9b2f-7de8-4b49-9055-d000ab6a8dd7 StacycatS 2006-10-26T21:25:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9484a331-ac53-4047-add6-ee8ada02eafe You know, on another deep level, perhaps we are inspiring them more than they are exploiting us. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:40:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9484a331-ac53-4047-add6-ee8ada02eafe Les 2006-10-26T20:40:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2cee8ce-badb-46ef-89b1-a26c1064df5f I told you Neon, totally low blood sugar. I am brand spankin' new to tribe... so I am starting to learn to rein in the slobbering moron that reacts like a top when he reads someone's post.... it *IS* interesting, however... how much we lose without non verbals and other body language not existing in the writing. But boy to I get dumb. Sorry.. learning... time for soup. (I got my bacon wallet today too, so I am sorta in a fine mood) =) Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:40:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2cee8ce-badb-46ef-89b1-a26c1064df5f Fishbits 2006-10-26T19:40:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bb529159-cf6a-4e8d-b48b-63e5c684b696 OMG, Timmy, you're cracking me up... What I learned in school today: The difference between poseur snob and snob poseur. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:32:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bb529159-cf6a-4e8d-b48b-63e5c684b696 Neon 2006-10-26T19:32:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a021e7bb-1e26-4d85-981c-6fd7d17a2997 //I'm not really getting where I became a self-righteous hippy who doesn't want to pay for anything though. // gezus christ, CTP, why do you keep bringing the thread back to YOU. it comes from you stating how much $$ you spend and how youre not eligible for grants, like you want a brownie button or something. why are you all obsessing on the words used in my original statement and not the intent behind it? did the statement hit too close to home or something? what do you want me to say CTP, that you, specifically are not a hippie because you work oh so hard and you spend oh so much money, so clearly i am wrong, burners are the demographic the flower int he lexus commerical was appealing to, and not the product being marketed to a more profitable demographic? how many burners do you see driving a lexus? do you think more burners wil buy a lexus now they know theyve used the flower as a marketing tool? would that make you feel better? now. can we move on to / go back to the original subject of burnnig man art as a marketing tool? no one cares if i called you a hippie or not. trust me, im not that important. i would think the original topic was more important. PUMA seems to think so, hes got quite a few thoughts there. so long as you dont get hung up on him calling the entire nation worthless snobs. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:28:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a021e7bb-1e26-4d85-981c-6fd7d17a2997 StacycatS 2006-10-26T19:28:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d270b583-bc3c-417f-8b72-8ce957e843fd If you believe you're pickin up what I'm puttin down, please procede to light the edge of it on fire. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:35:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d270b583-bc3c-417f-8b72-8ce957e843fd PUMA 2006-10-26T18:35:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3bf97e6d-0862-422a-9769-f49f29a142dc Whew. Where to start. Life is art. We "choose" the "lines" we "draw" into the canvas of linear time with every breath. Ispired by what is, we add, change, and release. I'm speaking English for Pete's sake. I didn't make this shit up, but I slang, accent, and inflect to make it my own expression of my thoughts and emotions. Hopefully my audience doen't take the medium for granted and can appreciate my attempt to be understood. Options and Choices are two VERY different things. Every choice I make is a powerful tool of creation. Every OPTION I accept pops a hole in my ability to use my imagination. As I opted to cover my physical presence, clothes or jailtime for nudity, I again opted as to what I would cover myself with, Nike or Levis. I am an artist, but my resources are limited by those who "we" have already accepted as the choice makers of our commercial society. I now choose to make my own moccasins by hand as well as most the clothes on my back, the rest I trade for with the talents I have at the end of my arms for the same that others have chosen to offer me. Now that I know how to make my own shoes, I am a sellout everytime I OPT to purchase a pair of NIKES. I have brought this conversation to a root level that we can all feel guilty for now. I call it "Lightswitches and BigMacs". CHOOSE a creative alternative and you have changed the world. As we continue to opt for our "reality" at the detriment of our collective and personal evolution we can all take the responsibility for selling out. Ownership and Pride. We are Burning Man. It doesn't exist without us. The Playa is blank canvas 51 weeks out of the year. We ought to take pride in what we manifest. It reminds me of a Potluck dinner we used to have every Monday. It was awesome for a while. Good, creative people bringing amazing food to share. Musicians, massage therapists, etc. throwing down. Well, the word spread, sometimes on purpose by those marketing their own coolness, as to how great a time we were having. We were more than happy to share at first. Who doesn't want to make a change in someone elses mundane existence? Remind you of a big ass phenomenon in the desert? Well, we attracted those who were really searching for something to inspire them, and we did. Not unlike Christianity, when you MAKE something that works you will attract scavengers. So much so they returned every Monday to feed off of our generous light. Suddenly there was not enough food to go around, and people start complaining, and the really cool folks who truly produce stop showing up, then we supplement the loss by ordering a pizza or 2 and that brings us to Burning Man today. Is my relation to obscure? Ordering the Pizzas worked but it was not in concurance with our original intent. IS THIS SELLING OUT? Many root producers of B Man have overextended themselves to keep the event as "COOL" or "Phenomenal" to virgins as it was our first time. With more and more new blood showing up empty handed to "check it out" there is less Potluck to go around so the oldies are seeking outside supplements to keep the boat floating. IS IT SELLING OUT? My opinion is YES! If I can't cover it within my means then it is out of my reach and should by ammended, the way B Man used to be. This brings me to the main problem with our Nation. Financing. We are a country of worthless snobs, living so beyond our means. They call them third world countries because it takes at least 3 people to do what it takes for 1 rich american to exist. We have bred ourselves into utter dependance. Our everyday existence could be as, if not more, creative than BRC, but we have accepted the encroachment of regulations and licencing that actually make it illegal to be imaginative and creative. Try getting the permits to build a dwelling like the Waffle in a residential 'hood. I'm rambling. Did the Flower sell out? Only if THEY believe the effort and emotions they put into their creation is fully represented by the corporations they choose to receive $$$ from. It is my opinion that Lexus prolly isn't completely in step with what B Man has represented in the past but if we continue to OPT for those resources we will be the ones that shape the future of the event. As much as I believe everyone should taste B Man, if we leave the carcass on the field open to every coyote in the plains, it will be ripped to shreds before the predators that took it down even get a bite. Nothing wrong with gettin a little selfish with our beloved city. I say lock the gate for a while before it's gone. Meaning, We all sell out everytime we strap on some store bought shoes and go to the job we despise to trade our free time for $$$ then trading the $$$ back for our free time. CHOOSE with a little more reservation who you sell out to. Love, Grattitude, Respect. PUMA Every dollar spent is a vote for something. Do you stand behind your votes? Every dollar earned is a vote for you and your integrity. Again, do you stand behind your votes? This is OUR city and don't want to lose it in the name of $$$ like I have almost everything else in this "life". Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:33:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3bf97e6d-0862-422a-9769-f49f29a142dc PUMA 2006-10-26T18:33:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#cde75ec7-30a6-4021-9936-6ad72494ed41 Oh, CTP, don't worry about it. They're going up on the auction block next week and being sold to a more profitable market... :P Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:27:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#cde75ec7-30a6-4021-9936-6ad72494ed41 Tedward 2006-10-26T18:27:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69a7e622-bbbe-472d-9fc9-2f745e8953ad <<<its pretty rare that any of these people, myself included, say that they WANT to pay for their own project / art. and its even more rare that they dont get self righteous about it when they do! >>> Interesting. I've never even thought about whether or not I "wanted" to pay for it or not. I've done it 7 years in a row now, am currently planning the 8th, and all I have thought about is how to pay for it - not whether I want to or not. I "want" to fix bikes on the playa, and I work toward that goal in order to make it happen. I'm not really getting where I became a self-righteous hippy who doesn't want to pay for anything though. Oh, btw, all of my self righteous hippy campmates wanted to chip in for camp expenses - on top of their own. At least they said they wanted to....now I wonder if they actually "wanted" to or not. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:20:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69a7e622-bbbe-472d-9fc9-2f745e8953ad CTP 2006-10-26T18:20:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#98f9235b-a741-470e-9348-02e1c7d957c9 Why wasn't anyone mad that the flower was called "miracle grow"? Isn't there a product with that name? Do you suppose Lexus asked them to stop calling it that? Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:54:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#98f9235b-a741-470e-9348-02e1c7d957c9 :D'Nah 2006-10-26T16:54:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a8172ef1-6fcd-4c8f-897d-6523f0c63e1d //Oh, pardon me. The 'tard/troll is a girl. // haha, nice! a self righteous hippie on a soap box, accusing people of speaking before thinking, yet not having any idea who hes talking about. good times, yo! good times. Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:08:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a8172ef1-6fcd-4c8f-897d-6523f0c63e1d StacycatS 2006-10-26T16:08:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1682f743-6bb8-491a-b3a3-61c3e33a7c80 Thanks for posting an example of thinking about the 'grey' areas that are in every issues or subject... Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:07:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1682f743-6bb8-491a-b3a3-61c3e33a7c80 HarveyNormal 2006-10-26T04:07:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#196b7d4c-41d5-4656-953d-6698d11dcbac Oh, pardon me. The 'tard/troll is a girl. Sas Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:06:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#196b7d4c-41d5-4656-953d-6698d11dcbac Sasquatch 2006-10-25T23:06:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#93fc2337-c46d-4682-abca-d1321a00e9bc "<<<keep in mind - burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves.>>> Wow. My first reaction was to say go fuck yourself...but that's not very productive." Now now CTP, if it pleases him to believe that simple shit, let him. Spouting stuff like that is it's own reward after all. Pretty soon you're surrounded by 'tards just like yourself (rhetorical "you"). Gotta be a comfort to not actually think before spewing such drivel, no? Sas Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:05:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#93fc2337-c46d-4682-abca-d1321a00e9bc Sasquatch 2006-10-25T23:05:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5eb09392-ec86-42ba-8463-6bf43a431e3c If a person is trying to imitate a snob, one would assume that would define a "poseur snob" and, therefore, the person is not really a snob, only a poseur. Now, if the person was truly a snob and a poseur at the same time, that would not be a "poseur snob", yet more aptly, a "snob poseur". Here, the emphasis is on the snobbery begetting the poseury, not the contradiction in terms of the former. Now, I for one, would hate to be a snob for real, yet imitating one can be fun. Kind of like pretending you're independently wealthy and with reason to throw up your nose, just for fun, like at an Edwardian party or something like that. You know, Gary Cooper, and all. Or the scene from Time Bandits when the little funny midgets are all of the sudden on the Titanic... Pianos. Not enough pianos in the world. All of this is making me want to move into my next phase of geurilla ops: depositing unwanted pianos in places where they will be wanted or learned to be wanted or at least played upon. A few could be brought to the playa as a crescendo to such a campaign, yet they ought to be reasonably tuned enough to distinguish between, a flat 9 and a sharp 9 or a major and dominant 7th. Then, sacrificially, they will be burned in a symphony of acoustic orgasms. Yet, what would happen to all of the sound boards and wire? Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:21:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5eb09392-ec86-42ba-8463-6bf43a431e3c tim, the mighty 2006-10-25T21:21:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b1af4ff6-ead0-4687-b04a-7cdf754f0800 //We (BYB) get no money from the org// of course you dont, borg grants are a privilege only awarded to installation artists, silly! i see that you do pay for stuff yourself, but it is clear that you feel a little self righteous about it by the tone of your response. :) which means my statement "burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves." still holds true. ive spent thousands of dollars on my project too, which is not eligible for a borg grant as it is not an installation piece. there are many people out there in the same position - the BRC post office spends thousands of their own $$ each year as well... and they certainly perform a noble service to the citizens of BRC! its pretty rare that any of these people, myself included, say that they WANT to pay for their own project / art. and its even more rare that they dont get self righteous about it when they do! its truly unfortunate that through all the online bickering, no one has commented on what i consider to be the most important sentence in my original post - the one about burners not being the market, but the product sold to a more profitable market. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:33:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b1af4ff6-ead0-4687-b04a-7cdf754f0800 StacycatS 2006-10-25T20:33:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6ca977c4-a514-46b1-912c-d15bbd4cae40 Well, those are all good, but I've just now changed it to Halloween. It's now Jesus Happy Halloween Christ: Jesus H. Christ for short. MmmmmmKaaaaaaay? Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:49:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6ca977c4-a514-46b1-912c-d15bbd4cae40 Neon 2006-10-25T19:49:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c9ce986-6979-4f44-ae2e-344f10a05635 You spelled fnord wrong. just kidding.... what is fnord? Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:44:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7c9ce986-6979-4f44-ae2e-344f10a05635 Neon 2006-10-25T19:44:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#addb85ad-86b0-4fab-b028-a4994dce845f <<<keep in mind - burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves.>>> Wow. My first reaction was to say go fuck yourself...but that's not very productive. We (BYB) get no money from the org - we get no money for bike parts, or tool replacement, or discounted tickets, or anything. We get a spot of playa. We pay for everything we bring to fix bikes every year - thousands of dollars worth. And all of my friends running service camps on the playa are the same way - they all pay for the whole thing out of pocket. But we are all burners, no? Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:03:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#addb85ad-86b0-4fab-b028-a4994dce845f CTP 2006-10-25T19:03:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#279416c6-904b-4b93-b188-369811e537d5 WHAT! SCREW YOU BUDDIE!!!! ahhhh...Just kidding! Actually, I concur! This is a crazy protective discussion and I wish it wasn't even something to talk about. But, it is. Once again acceptance seems to be the deal here and honestly, it kinda hurts. Kuddos Neon! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:57:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#279416c6-904b-4b93-b188-369811e537d5 $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-25T18:57:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b22fcd42-8c93-45a7-a701-72f14b84f510 Okay, I'm over my original emotional moment. I have come to appreciate the flower in all its resplendent beauty moving out into the bigger world of mainstream corporate media. Blooming where it's planted. Thank you all for your thoughts, I have learned a lot. I really appreciate the minds in this tribe and at burning man. This is sincere...not kidding or sarcastic... I think it is sooo important to have a place where we/I can think about things out loud and learn from the wisdom, experiences and creativity of others. My only wish is that people not go on ballistic attacks when they hear something they disagree with ...teaching...discussing...articulating opinions...do more to change a mind than attacking does. Appreciations to Uncle...for turning it around... Thank you all. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:49:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b22fcd42-8c93-45a7-a701-72f14b84f510 Neon 2006-10-25T18:49:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#edd3d6de-2df1-495a-88b1-d781d8fd297e WOW.... I made it to the bottom of this thread...can't believe it but here I am.... So, this is what I'd like to ask.... HELLO??? Are you not seeing that Burning Man is coming into mainstream? As someone pointed out we are being studied. We are on cartoons and TV shows now. Because the Google guys go and there was an article on them and how it is cool to hire people who go now my frinkin' CEO is "WOWED" how I work for her. YEAH! This shit surprises you? This is it fellow Burners...we have to accept that we are the "cool kids" of this media circus we call the "real world" now so of course they are going to approach something like "the flower" to be in commercials. AND this brings up the other point.... It is kind of like when we are doing a local event and someone says we don't want any "yahoos" at our event staring at the girls and not particapating.... (ME at times being one of those people) BUT, is this the Burning Man spirit? Shouldn't we be proud to say "Come on in" Let me share" and shouldn't we be proud to say "HEY, that is one of our art pieces" What great memories...what a great piece of art! I guess what I'm trying to say is Burning Man is becoming the mainstream whether we like it or not. AND coming upon my 6th year (to some I'm just a baby) I'm not exactly that happy about sharing my beautiful playa with the real world but I don't think I have much choice. Also, most main streamers think we are NUTS to do what we do but think of maybe those one or two people who do not know about BM and will find out and will have to most incredible adventure like we have done just because they saw a TV commercial, show or read an article...yadda yadda yadda.... I just sayin'..... thanks for reading.... Cheers! POST NUMBER 1,111,169,696,969,6961 Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:19:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#edd3d6de-2df1-495a-88b1-d781d8fd297e $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-25T18:19:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#f0f90512-4f53-4c1e-86c6-37bd08504597 Okay, a real websearch turn this up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_H._Christ Some of the speculations are histerical... Jesus Horowitz-Christ Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:54:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#f0f90512-4f53-4c1e-86c6-37bd08504597 Tedward 2006-10-25T17:54:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b4feb039-32bf-4dfb-b33e-93e7a18ee6bd Actually, I just did a webserarch, and apparently, it's Hootie... Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:48:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b4feb039-32bf-4dfb-b33e-93e7a18ee6bd Tedward 2006-10-25T17:48:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#20eb90d5-3fa1-4c7d-881e-aafc30eabee2 Stella Artois beer batter Belgian Waffles are tasty. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:36:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#20eb90d5-3fa1-4c7d-881e-aafc30eabee2 Flecka 2006-10-25T17:36:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2cdc8e8-0ae9-48f7-8145-50dfcdb43b51 <<It's Howard.>> Oooooh, hate to correct you but I believe it's Harold... Hehe, that's for you Silverman ;) Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:34:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2cdc8e8-0ae9-48f7-8145-50dfcdb43b51 Flecka 2006-10-25T17:34:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#49865a20-5f0d-41ba-9db4-449d65b21aa6 No, people just use the letter to represent the sound, it'a a Yiddish word "ahech" roughly translated here as "the", but it's full meaning is more like "the one who has become the" (j/k) I have no friggin idear Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:17:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#49865a20-5f0d-41ba-9db4-449d65b21aa6 Tedward 2006-10-25T17:17:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7e88aa22-0bcc-4d17-942a-efcdab046474 It's Howard. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:24:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7e88aa22-0bcc-4d17-942a-efcdab046474 Neon 2006-10-25T16:24:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c5b2796c-4f87-463e-9821-1b522aece0de You spelled Tyrrany wrong. KK Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:07:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c5b2796c-4f87-463e-9821-1b522aece0de Kamikaze 2006-10-25T16:07:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#37a2b692-87e5-4b92-91ab-18f5328b9eb0 ...but when I'm around her, everything I tell her is counted, trumted, and contradicted, while I defile and exploit every tennant that defines our relationship... (...is what I meant to to write. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:04:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#37a2b692-87e5-4b92-91ab-18f5328b9eb0 Goatt 2006-10-25T16:04:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4fdf2dfc-7fea-4b8c-832a-a8722c4933ac Simmer, I feel the same way... When I'm with my girlfriend, I'm totally into her-into the song and dance of lovin' her, committing myself to the ideal of there actually bein' a 'her and I', ...but when I'm not around her, everything I tell her is countered, of every tennant that defines our relationship. Burnin'man is the exact same way for me... and I qoute (you): "It's one thing to adhere to the main principles of the event *while at the event*, and it's another thing *entirely* to...fund art, make logos *away from* the event." [essentially and implicitly takin' from the event in way that contridicts the tennants of the event]. Yeah, we agree: Integrity is way over rated!!! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:02:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4fdf2dfc-7fea-4b8c-832a-a8722c4933ac Goatt 2006-10-25T16:02:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a5026d33-166c-4f4f-a50e-1315c6b6f2f7 I've always wondered what the 'H' is for... Horseshit, Hossanah, Heritic, Holy? Inquiring minds want to know... KK Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:01:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a5026d33-166c-4f4f-a50e-1315c6b6f2f7 Kamikaze 2006-10-25T16:01:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d62fda4d-f3b5-4ae2-8629-b9f799afdd45 Jesus H. Christ. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:39:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d62fda4d-f3b5-4ae2-8629-b9f799afdd45 ♪James 2006-10-25T15:39:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0ae859a-f9b5-4867-abee-c108ae60a04a Tedward... "I think the real point is intent" oh man you are with it man... great point! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:18:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0ae859a-f9b5-4867-abee-c108ae60a04a Fishbits 2006-10-25T09:18:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0da5ca92-282f-4e47-a371-38f5395bf36c NEON.. I know I know. Low blood sugar in the afternoon. =^) It wasn't PC so much as the blind arguments I here from others. You back it up somethin' fierce and fine.... no one is acting righteous and spoiled AT ALL... I was just turning into a gnarly troll. ick. but the intent is still the same... it is just very complex... and *you* don't have to go into debt, but alot of people do.. and work hard.. so that the circle of art cars on saturday night around the man is the most SURREAL AND WONDERFUL experience you could imagine! Okay... I am in a better mood. Sorry to be all pissy. But some of these people are simply quick to jump on the very complex issue with a blanket frankenstein growl, "corporation BADDDD!!!" which they are... sorta.. but it is *really* complex. Admittedly, seeing the flower in any context off the playa was sort of surprising. I don't hold it against them... I just never thought I would see it. It is super frickin cool tho. NEON.. sorry... but my meaning is still relatively the same. But not a personal attack at you. Okay night! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:17:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0da5ca92-282f-4e47-a371-38f5395bf36c Fishbits 2006-10-25T09:17:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2e8ab8ae-9f31-4863-8ee2-6645d31728d3 I think the entire BM community has exacted enough revenge on these unsuspecting Belgians by referring to their project, almost universally, as "The Belgian Waffle". Now, does that advertise something? Yes it does. Belgian Waffles. Whose Belgian Waffles? The Belgians. Are they really waffles over there or are they more of a "anytime snack"? It is a cultural distinction. They eat them over there like they were cookies, whilst, we here in the Americas almost universally eat them at mom's or the local greasy spoon only for breakfast. Which leads me to believe that just because the Belgians make waffles for anytime snacking, it doesn't hold that their beer is the same. In fact, their beer is somewhat bitter, yet not all of it. And what do we see advertised from Belgium of their beer aside from Stella Artois? Fat Tire, yet that is merely a Colorado brew, and there are many others of the same litter, and on top of that, there is Chimay. Chimay is pricey, and so is Duvel, yet both are worth it. Would we wince if only stylish European products were allowed as advertisement, much like they seem to stylishly blend into football (soccer) and cycling jerseys? What if Burning Man were brought to you by VW/Audi's Next Generation BioDiesel Hybrid that gets 120miles per gallon? Audi is German (for "auto") and it stands to say that it is much more fiscally secure than GM, even though Toyota has outplayed everyone in it's shrewd "marketing" tactic of changing it's entire fleet to hybrid by 2012. Looks like that vertically integrated Japanese conglomerate is playing it's cards right for the "Earth Changes". But, back to waffles. Waffles, like pancakes, are a wholesome way to start your day and can be enjoyed anytime, yet it is not something we are ready to admit. Now, Lexus, which sounds like a porn star name, is trying to get into the "cooler than SoHo" art racket. Ok, that's fine. Artists sometimes have to sleep around in order to pay the bills. Or, think of a better acronym than "BM". What if it were "Burning Man World"? BMW... maybe. We at the Hookahdome have secretly been taking bribes from North African and Persian rug dealers around the West Coast in order to feature their fine rugs on our Magic Flying Carpet (tm) and in our splendid Hookahdome (tm) in order to bring you the best possible semi-indigenous healing and chill space ever conceived on the playa. Not really... though we would certainly love to talk to someone that would gift us nice $20,000 rugs. All of which leads me to this sordid guerilla marketing tactic: Please, come support the HD on Nov. 4th! http://soulcandy3.com Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:55:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2e8ab8ae-9f31-4863-8ee2-6645d31728d3 tim, the mighty 2006-10-25T07:55:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c3f2713c-c527-448f-b971-1fa41b5bc962 Here's my thoughts on the whole idea, love em or leave em, I don't really care which. If the big flower people want to make art and take it to Burning Man, that's their deal, nobody's arguing with that. If Lexus thinks the big flower would make an interesting centerpiece for some ad campaign, that's cool too. Artists getting recognized and paid to do what they do best is always good. If the big flower people want to bring their art(which was also in the Lexus ads) back to the playa, yay for them. What's the big deal if it was in a commercial? Is everything that was at one point in a commercial somehow supposed to be banned now? If that's the case, we're all screwed. I seem to remember an ad for Mike's Lemonade that had a guy getting impaled on a piece of rebar. Does that mean that since the rebar was the centerpoint and punchline of the Mike's ad that it should no longer be allowed at the burn? After all, isn't every piece of rebar we see now going to remind us of that Mike's commercial? If that's the case, this just might be the last burn because there's no more rebar to hold everything down when the wind kicks up. Then there's the famous 'lightsaber battles' I keep hearing about. Do I really have to explain this part? Point is this - If the flower or whatever else is in a commercial, who really cares? It means that they finally got recognized by someone other than the burner world for making kickass art. Instead of getting up in arms over the whole thing, go congratulate them for a job well done. Instead of seeing the 'image of the corporate world' or the 'antithesis to everything burning man stands for' see the thing for what it is... a piece of art that got recognized for being damn good. A constant reminder that there are people out there who recognize talented artists and builders at Burning Man that aren't connected with the organization. Call it added incentive to excel(I say added because if you need monetary motivation to do well, you're already screwed) Then again, that's just my $.02. -Jake Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:31:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c3f2713c-c527-448f-b971-1fa41b5bc962 Jake 2006-10-25T07:31:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#526da521-d51d-43d2-bae1-b83963305462 If I had any chance in my job to throw money to BM artists, you can bet your ass I would. They are the first place I would look. For that matter, in any situation where I could choose who got some money, whether contracting, hiring, etc., I would look quite favorably on someone/group that I knew was burner-related. Rev. Dust Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:24:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#526da521-d51d-43d2-bae1-b83963305462 Reverend Dusty 2006-10-25T07:24:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4c767e79-27ed-4d89-9817-a8b8b987d372 ALL RUBBERHEADS THROW FISH!!! Would you rather be against "for" or for "against"? Daunting questions these. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:14:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4c767e79-27ed-4d89-9817-a8b8b987d372 tim, the mighty 2006-10-25T07:14:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d2f15bb2-94f9-43a5-bd0f-2fd7ef34aae0 I think the real point is intent. Ar you making big art to take to burningman, or are you producing a marketing tool that you can slide out to BM first and get some street creds as a fully funded artist? If you're doing it for the art, you're an artist. If you're doing it for the Corp, you're a sell-out. The flower was NOT done for the corp, and I doubt the Uchronian (the real original topic) was either. Remember, therre's pretty much no place at all the artist could have installed something like that except at BM. So, this was probably something like the ultimate proof of concept for him. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:10:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d2f15bb2-94f9-43a5-bd0f-2fd7ef34aae0 Tedward 2006-10-25T07:10:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bf54b9a5-98f9-4f9c-81c8-98519d512a24 Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly!! Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly Try saying that really fast, then say: "Piggly Wiggly, Bird Bath Pie Cat Hips, Fish Lips Poke you in the Eye" I can't resist interjecting B. Kliban wherever I can. Actually, that reminds me...I wrote that on the structure of the Man... See, that is how we fight this advertisement culture! Guerilla Sillyness!! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:09:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bf54b9a5-98f9-4f9c-81c8-98519d512a24 tim, the mighty 2006-10-25T07:09:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6f9b360a-ae59-4406-8252-657ac5413f17 Based on what information? Follow up with more to back your assertion. I've just come across this thread and it certainly brings up some important questions. I make no claim to know about any of this, yet I cannot stand it when someone just thinks that they're right "just cuz" or "nuff said". That is nothing but juvenile banter. Just saying "Your understanding is wrong." does absolutely nothing in the way of contributing to this conversation or any discussion which is above the level of a Yahoo message board. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:02:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6f9b360a-ae59-4406-8252-657ac5413f17 tim, the mighty 2006-10-25T07:02:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#f445eff4-6352-4e31-adbd-bb9729434141 Well, I'm just going to babble a little bit here, 'cause this is a complex topic for me and I don't think I've quite worked out my thinking... (1) Burning Man isn't all that interesting to me as a one-week party in the desert. It IS interesting as a catalyst for people to change their lives, how they relate to others and create community, how they incorporate creativity and self-expression into their day-to-day lives, how they access more personal authenticity every day, blah blah blah. (2) From that perspective, stuff that takes BMAN *OFF* the playa is particularly attractive/appealing. So if some guys who work for Acme Inc. come home and figure out how to incorporate some really cool stuff they saw on the playa -- with the hoped-for result that it benefits both the artists (who didn't DO the work with the hope of a big-money application, but who definitely are grateful for the bucks), and perhaps inspires the "general public" who get to see a really cool piece of art....... then that's good, right? (Right?) (3) But the PLAYA is it's own special commercial-free bubble... so what's OK (or even GOOD) in the Default World doesn't necessarily translate back to BRC-world. So how to reconcile? Once something created for the playa (that was totally FANTASTIC there) gets put into the commercial realm, does that "ruin it forever" for the playa? What if no one knew? (Like: what if the Hearth were used somehow at the opening of a hospital in Duluth -- but it didn't make an national news or come to the attention of any Burners. Would it be "tainted" anyway? If a tree falls in the forest......) I'm not trying to be too semantic here, but I'm trying to parse out the different complex issues. And I have the same visceral reaction to the Flower-in-the-Lexus-commercial as the original poster ... but I think I'm WRONG. And I think that artists should be able to make a living by making art. blah blah blah It's a REALLY interesting question/conundrum! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:01:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#f445eff4-6352-4e31-adbd-bb9729434141 Dana 2006-10-25T07:01:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#98ea6464-ca83-4b1c-9608-0a461e3a8f41 Or Jimmy Dean's Smoked Bacon, mmmmmm. Sas Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:42:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#98ea6464-ca83-4b1c-9608-0a461e3a8f41 Sasquatch 2006-10-25T06:42:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#466cd240-0166-49ed-b4bc-0b9fdf3aaac4 "How about that gigantic green laser that Emerald City brought in?" Ah Emerald City. Nice dance camp but I think they still hold the record for most MOOP left behind, ever. At least 50 empty steel fuel drums, fuel contaminated playa, trash, grey water and wasn't there something about the big bucks to fund it being embezzled or something? Not the best example, really. Sas Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:28:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#466cd240-0166-49ed-b4bc-0b9fdf3aaac4 Sasquatch 2006-10-25T06:28:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#046b5d55-ef58-4afb-af3d-6153b4510e19 Some of these companies.. not all...Automakers are working on nitrogen fueled engines I say GREEN and if they are out there promoting this I think it is us.Lets inspire them to work harder and faster on this concept.And as for burners making money off thier Burn inspired art, GO Go....make art and get you're secondary message out when possible,it is a slow process this saving the world..education thang..we are them ! Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:52:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#046b5d55-ef58-4afb-af3d-6153b4510e19 Silky 2006-10-25T05:52:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#315e45cf-4965-4743-ab16-d66a43a87a89 okay, now back to the discussion: it's not an us and them thing like the complainers aren't do anything creative and the creative people aren't doing any of the complaining...maybe I'm wrong, but my assumption is that this "we" are "them". Second, no one is suggesting that anyone go into debt...my personal philosophy is I don't make anything i can't afford... and I didn't realize that there are people who go into debt to make their burning man art...so I am learning some things here as we go. (Well, that's not entirely true...I do put things on credit cards and pay them off over time. I don't think anyone here is acting righteous or spoiled, so i don't know where that perception is coming from, maybe other conversations? You really pushed a button for me when you called me PC--to me that's a serious insult! But the funny thing is, anyone who knows me would be flabbergasted that someone called me PC, so I guess it's kinda funny, but I really don't like it. Truth is, for me, this has nothing to do with PC, it's just my own personal reaction and opinions, in process and ever-changing. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 04:54:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#315e45cf-4965-4743-ab16-d66a43a87a89 Neon 2006-10-25T04:54:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c4699f6a-4748-425b-9f5e-097c8cd79b76 I'll have both...cream and sugar... Now here's your group hug: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{group}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Wed, 25 Oct 2006 04:41:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c4699f6a-4748-425b-9f5e-097c8cd79b76 Neon 2006-10-25T04:41:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#548e31cc-6a2c-4e49-9b71-acfd4261aecf ultimately the org paid for this exhibit as well, since the artist left it and they had to clean it all up. E Wed, 25 Oct 2006 04:24:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#548e31cc-6a2c-4e49-9b71-acfd4261aecf DJ BIG E 2006-10-25T04:24:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b055e75-fb23-4a25-a837-3d90803f9a12 Dear Marsi: I think you might be mistaken about LadyBee being part of your team. She is actually the Burning Man art curator and thus is clear about the ins and out of the grant money and how it works. I did not want to correct you in public but just wanted you to know. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 03:22:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b055e75-fb23-4a25-a837-3d90803f9a12 affinity 2006-10-25T03:22:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#25a8e32d-bb16-4367-ba15-72f4725ee981 So I calmed down a bit. It doesn't piss me off... I just am not the idealist I used to be. And I believe things are quite a bit more complex than yes or no. I think I need a group hug and then we should have a conversation. Do you want some coffee? No... it's no trouble. I was going to make some. Really. Yeah.. do you want cream or sugar? I don't use it, but it's no problem (I like coffee black, like my women.... dark and bitter.) Wed, 25 Oct 2006 03:09:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#25a8e32d-bb16-4367-ba15-72f4725ee981 Fishbits 2006-10-25T03:09:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8fa0465a-95c6-4de9-8025-d8c6052586c7 I like the hypocritical burning man people who spout their shit about sustainability, and then arrogantly suggest the people actually doing *all* the work for your hippy freak out should go 100's of thousands into debt? How is that sustainable? this stuff pisses me off.... righteous, spoiled people that have no concept of the complexity of infrastructure and reality. I know we are burners, but do art cars grow on trees? It is about moderation... and temperance. Figuring out the balance... but blind, ignorant lashing at the waffle and the flower are so P.C. passe it isn't even funny. SERIOUSLY... I don't do a thing. Not one thing. This year I got mechinations on some doin's transpirin'. But I haven't created a 60 or 70 foot solid steel dragon that breathes fire from its vertebrae. Nor was I an artist that built a HUGE clock out of wood... working parts and all, nor did I somehow attach two ton boulders to a weird thingy and have them balanced and... you get what I am saying. While all the idealistic burners are tripping their nuts off, their are people maintaning steam driven locomotives and Sand Crawlers that are freaked out about how they are going to pay for your fun. This is the really real world..... you don't have to abide by it, but live in it. "You would have to be crazy to refuse that much money. As soon as I looked into his eyes and knew he wasn't crazy, I knew what to do." Wed, 25 Oct 2006 03:02:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8fa0465a-95c6-4de9-8025-d8c6052586c7 Fishbits 2006-10-25T03:02:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5c0f7445-c77a-46cf-8ebf-166393dc70a6 I was hoping Eggo would make a promotion too. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:26:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5c0f7445-c77a-46cf-8ebf-166393dc70a6 flackmaster 2006-10-25T01:26:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9161ac00-1aa7-4a5f-b10c-9c65d9d2c980 {snicker} hehehe {chuckle} HA! [WITH finger pointed] {guffaw} :) :) :) ... um Marsi, could you not post incorrect or incomplete information about YOUR art project until you get the facts straight... :) BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH [Luv ya Mars... Pinky swear] Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:11:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9161ac00-1aa7-4a5f-b10c-9c65d9d2c980 Tedward 2006-10-25T01:11:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#54652cc0-f611-467a-81d1-57c2e5a4fce3 I stand corrected. One of our team members pointed out that the flower was not given a grant by BRAF, but rather by Burning Man's granting process. Carry on then. Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:07:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#54652cc0-f611-467a-81d1-57c2e5a4fce3 MARSI 2006-10-25T01:07:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#47c31a02-6512-40c5-9dd8-122c35d73b3b HI Marsi - Just wanted to correct something in your post - your 2006 art grant came from BURNING MAN, not from BRAF!!! BRAF funds art OFF the playa, Burning Man funds art at the event. BRAF is a non-profit organization separate from Burning Man, which is an LLC. The funds for BM art grants, like everything else at our event, come from ticket sales. Not from BRAF!!! LadyBee Wed, 25 Oct 2006 00:25:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#47c31a02-6512-40c5-9dd8-122c35d73b3b LadyBee 2006-10-25T00:25:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9fd36929-a7c1-402c-81e1-95db4ea1f380 >>unless, you are now following the religion of south park<< Yes, South Park is my religion. It is also my political affiliation. And my personal philosophy. In fact, I think it's my race as well. Oh, and it's also the country I live in. Mmmmm'Kaaaay? Wed, 25 Oct 2006 00:24:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9fd36929-a7c1-402c-81e1-95db4ea1f380 Neon 2006-10-25T00:24:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#18135795-9fa2-4b37-b637-a2e10e80bd66 we could blow this into an 08 theme: capitalism. this way we can make the corporate sponsors the art, thus with an oversaturated environment of corporate logos and marketing, no one will be interested in it again, and we can return in 09 to a logo-free playa. kindof a Hotel New Hampshire approach... Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:45:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#18135795-9fa2-4b37-b637-a2e10e80bd66 spaz 2006-10-24T23:45:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#807f0592-0f5b-487f-bd3e-b1059c2d331b i was recently asked how much I spend on burningman. I responded "everything". Leave it to Marsi to give more than that... :) I agree with Neon (did I just say that?) that you should certainly feel complimented that anyone would even care if it were in a Lexus commercial. Clearly the angst involved here is much more about their connection to the piece than with the specifics of funding sources. My own first reaction to it was captured and broadcast for all to see. My impression has never changed. I don't think there's a doubt that funding such a monstrosity would be easy, clearly based on the limited number of similar installations, it's not for everyone to try. I think part of this is about whether such scale -should be- attempted if it means that corporate funding becomes a necessity in the creation. Personally, I think what happens outside Burningman should stay outside of Burningman. And as long as you bring something that affects people's lives and emotions and perspective... then who cares how you got it there? Just keep the corporate logos off of it until you take it off the playa. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:41:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#807f0592-0f5b-487f-bd3e-b1059c2d331b Tedward 2006-10-24T23:41:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#73d0456e-01d4-48f8-b2c0-64fa1c40077d http://www.thedolab.com/lucentdelirium_06.html Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:37:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#73d0456e-01d4-48f8-b2c0-64fa1c40077d Joshua 2006-10-24T23:37:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#dd05d5c6-823f-41bb-9477-2380f0124330 Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. ;-) (jk) Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:35:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#dd05d5c6-823f-41bb-9477-2380f0124330 Neon 2006-10-24T23:35:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#10dee7a5-f1db-487c-987f-f9d84850bfd7 boooyah preach it! it's one thing to adhere to the main principles of the event *while at the event* and it's another thing *entirely* to draw references, fund art, make logos, write stories, and take photographs *away from* the event. far as i can see, its the ideal situation, getting a fat corporate sponsor behind the art, so long as the art is what is displayed on the playa, and not corporate logos of where the funding came from. once off the playa, market the hell out of it, that's what the rest of the world is for. and get that funding for next year's art. now if we could only get Big Oil, Halliburton and the Carlysle Group to back some art.... wishful thinking Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:32:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#10dee7a5-f1db-487c-987f-f9d84850bfd7 spaz 2006-10-24T23:32:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a3262d7a-7fb9-4d92-b81f-6b90eb01cd2f }}>>How about 1000 fire performers making extra money using moves and routines developed for BM?<< Again, not done to advertise a product. {{ The product, in this case IS the show. They're using BM art to sell merchandise (performances). It's no different than photographers taking pictures of BM and selling them to greting card companies. And in the cases of the other two, the art had to be re-created because the original was burned, yes, but it's still a corporate funded project. What's good for the goose, Neon, is good for the gander. If you say that the Flower can't come back because it was used in a commersial, than neither can most of the inhabitants of SF, LA and NY, were broad shots for various movies and commercials are regularly taken and used to SELL products. You're saying that most rock, trance, country and hip-hop can't be used because they're background in some corporate media excursion. You're saying that burningman itself cannot come back because it was used in a variety of media presentations for profit (like Malcolm in the Middle, Discovery channel, etc). Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:26:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a3262d7a-7fb9-4d92-b81f-6b90eb01cd2f Tedward 2006-10-24T23:26:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#adff0876-de64-4d29-879f-3f8ee885c682 >>tell me....after spending hundreds of hours creating for our community and being out of pocket several grand as a group....how exactly would you feel in reading this dialogue?<< I would feel interested in what people were thinking about my art and what I have done with it. I would feel proud that people care about it. I would feel vulnerable that something close to my heart was generating strong opinions and emotions and maybe somewhat fearful about being criticized. But mostly excited and honored. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:17:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#adff0876-de64-4d29-879f-3f8ee885c682 Neon 2006-10-24T23:17:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1adb35e7-a063-442a-a801-dbfda6e073a6 The flower team did rent the flower POST burning man to lexus for a promotion. It paid the balance of the costs on the flower. The flower team got a grant from BRAF... who was aware of the rental to lexus to bring the flower and a companion vehicle out to the playa. I do think the original question...how we feel as a community about art and 'sponsorship' does bear examination. Sorry if I was snippy in my original email. I am tired and a bit worn down by dialogue such as this at the moment. I guess my question is this (if not presented in a bitchy light)....how would YOU fund something that large scale on that level? After you and a team of 15 or so had worked hundreds of hours, done multiple fundraisers...how would you complete funding? If there were an opportunity to have your piece be complete in it's financing, would you agree to that. I do not feel we sold out. Lexus has NO ownership of the piece. The funds weren't even used to bring the flower or the fly trap back to BM. That was done as a labor of love. And it was a joyous process...but labor nonetheless. We are still 14k in debt on the project...so if anyone would like to donate, please contact me and I will give you a link! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:15:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1adb35e7-a063-442a-a801-dbfda6e073a6 MARSI 2006-10-24T23:15:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#089545b9-317b-48e8-be2d-11d46af1803f >>Geez, I have myself all worked into a tizzy now *lol* << Easy to do. this is a rather touchy subject, and we haven't heard much from the originator. To whom I'm gonnna have to congradulat on a rampant successful baiting. I rather doubt that you'll ever see that happen. Just look at the economics of it all. Maybe the art will be liked, maybe it won't. Better to just fund something people really liked than to take a chance on an artist who may be a one-trick pony. Harsh... but that's corporate thinking for ya. If they can't get their logo on it for the event, then it's 40,000 captive watchers wasted to them. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:15:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#089545b9-317b-48e8-be2d-11d46af1803f Tedward 2006-10-24T23:15:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c05bdd4a-8066-46ad-b89e-f974c39d7222 >>How about the Temple being built in SF?<< Was not done to advertise a product. >>How about the LA artist that constructed and art piece for LA city based on a BM idea?<< Not done to advertise a product. >>How about 1000 fire performers making extra money using moves and routines developed for BM?<< Again, not done to advertise a product. >>On a specific point, "I'd love to hear all sides of thought on this.." is kind of an invitation to get that sort of responce; as is calling the flower a corporate Logo. << It is an invitation to discuss...and I have been, for the most part, enjoying the discussion, but it is not an invitation to be attacked, if that's what you're thinking. Also, I never called the flower a corporate logo. >>by the reasoning you posit in your post, anything that is used in any way outside BM for profit can no longer go out to the playa.<< No, I am not saying this AT ALL! I am saying that it is my opinion if a piece of art becomes an advertisement for a product, then if that piece comes to burning man it is now an advertisement, not just a piece of art. Someone wrote that the flower wasn't actually an advertisement, it was just used as a promotion...I do consider that a good point...hmmm, i'll have to find out more...but there's a chance this could persuade me to make up with the flower. I liked this point of Mirzu's too: <<I understand that everyone has different lines as far as how commercial they are willing to put up with, but just featuring the art in a commercial is fine. It's a feather in the cap of the artist. Hell the marketing slob at Lexus might have been a burner, and this was a way for him to divert some advertising dollars that would have gone to an agency to a real honest to goodness artist.>> And, Giles, that was a great point: >>I once had a really interesting life. During that time I became very, very used to seeing things show up in the mainstream media some length of time after I had discovered them. It's pretty much the job of the mainstream media to follow certain people around and try to repackage their interesting lives into the image-mongering tools of various corporations.<< I think I have some more posts to catch up on... Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:10:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c05bdd4a-8066-46ad-b89e-f974c39d7222 Neon 2006-10-24T23:10:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0d82613-2e89-46a9-b6ca-113e164976f8 Well, when you throw a Burningman fundraiser and you're part of building a large arti piece, it kinda connects. but, for the record, yes, both the twins at some point over the last couple of years alluded ot outright said so to me. Granted, a lot of what I said was assembled by conversations with Marsi, Jupiter, Partrick, the twins, and some of the LAFC who helped out. But I don't think I was disingenuous at any point. I see now that Marsi has pitched in, who is one of the few people I trust to actually know the bottom line on a lot of this. The point is (and always was, for me) that the people who created the flower never "sold out" or took corporate funding for it's creation. The feeling of this thread was that Lexus had funded a small group of artists to make a new corporate logo for them, and that simply is not so. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:04:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c0d82613-2e89-46a9-b6ca-113e164976f8 Tedward 2006-10-24T23:04:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#81b916d9-00af-4585-89a0-088a9aa78161 After looking at the Lexus page again I did think of something that would bother me- corporate sponsored art AT Burning Man, regardless of the corporation's actual presence on the playa *shudder* If the art is coming from BM and bought later, sure, but to sponsor the art piece prior to the event would seriously bother me. Say for example if Subaru offered a "grant" to an artist with the condition the piece may be used by Subaru after Burning Man, or they get first dibs to purchase it (without any logo's or something similar being displayed while there of course). I know the money from Lexus could be used to fund further projects for Burning Man, but for now it is (apparently) paying off bills from the prior project. Fine line for sure... Does anyone know how this is being prevented? Or if it is? Do you even think it should be? Geez, I have myself all worked into a tizzy now *lol* Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:59:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#81b916d9-00af-4585-89a0-088a9aa78161 Flecka 2006-10-24T22:59:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1c00ac9c-2951-4dd3-9563-cc44ba56340e jesus christ, "ha!"? did you point your finger when you said that? tedward and all really. because i did not actually participate in the flower this year, and only minimally in 2005,perhaps i also should not speak on the facts. i have passed it off to another "spokesperson". i can tell you tedward ,that your statements regarding how the cost is absorbed or "funded" are incomplete or untrue. im not sure where you got your information, but i am going to guess that no one at the do lab told you our "legendary parties" (thank you for the legendary bit by the by!) helped pay for it. this is a great discussion, lets keep it going. i would like to ask that assumptions are not introduced as fact, but exactly what they are OPINION. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:46:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1c00ac9c-2951-4dd3-9563-cc44ba56340e daNGerpAntz 2006-10-24T22:46:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c7b8d0f0-7db4-4dd3-8815-395bc6951771 blah blah blah fnord blah blah blah blah fnord blah blah blah blah blah fnord blah blah blah blah fnord blah blah blah blah blah fnord slack Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:46:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c7b8d0f0-7db4-4dd3-8815-395bc6951771 Geekster 2006-10-24T22:46:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7d48a048-011d-4de1-89ba-512791cf9889 The flower cost over $17,000 to be built the first year. Much of that was raised as a community effort between Abundant Sugar, The Do Lab and Cirque Berzerk. The flower and fly trap combined cost approx $32,000. There are hundreds of man/woman hours represented in those pieces. I am, I must say, a bit surprised by this whole dialogue. Aren't you out building something huge for next year? Or would you rather dissect other people and make them wrong for their choices. Tell me....after spending hundreds of hours creating for our community and being out of pocket several grand as a group....how exactly would you feel in reading this dialogue? I encourage you to try it on. Go build something big. I promise...I won't even begin to think that I understand what you have gone through to bring it out to the playa. I will be grateful. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:43:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7d48a048-011d-4de1-89ba-512791cf9889 MARSI 2006-10-24T22:43:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4eee5a2b-7e4e-4c5d-8f7b-6a9b22567265 I have to admit that my first reaction to this was to cringe, but I do the same thing when I hear music I love being used on a commercial. Not so much the Beatles or something similar as they've been used to promote everything under the sun from cars to M&M's. It's the more independent folks that make me cringe like Ozomatli or Bob Dylan. And yet oftentimes the more independent folks = smaller, poorer folks (excluding Bob of course :) that need the money and exposure. I KNOW my feelings are paradoxical, I really do. As someone who is trying to figure out how to sell her art at ALL I realize the difficulty in being a small-time artist. So I have resigned myself to the fact that it is a necessary evil. I support the artist *fully* in selling their art (or the use of their art as in this case), but it honestly bums me out when it has to be done through a large corporation. In an ideal world our art would be valued and bought by individuals instead of corporations. But until we live in an ideal world, the Flower will be used to sell Lexus, and those who built the flower are now out of debt and can focus on their next project... at least I hope they are!!! The Flower makes me smile and I encourage them to create more :) P.S. Support your local artists!! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:41:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4eee5a2b-7e4e-4c5d-8f7b-6a9b22567265 Flecka 2006-10-24T22:41:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#85eb59cd-0a07-4b01-af51-2ebb7c3b4485 <<Sounds like a dodge to me. >> It's an opinion, not a dodge. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:39:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#85eb59cd-0a07-4b01-af51-2ebb7c3b4485 Mushroom Girl 2006-10-24T22:39:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#41bb134d-c793-4ea5-8e20-70bfb48c5d12 <<i'm sorry, but NO >> I'm sorry, but YES. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:37:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#41bb134d-c793-4ea5-8e20-70bfb48c5d12 Mushroom Girl 2006-10-24T22:37:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#573d6c49-2e73-479f-8d58-635278ad581b I agree...those are not promotions...there is no advertising of the website, in fact here is the statement on the burning man website under "Marketplace" "The small amount of schwag we offer to the public is created by and for participants. Its aim is to communicate the experience of Burning Man and your involvement in our culture. We do not advertise outside of our community." So Burning Man does not, in fact, use The Man as a marketing tool. All car decals and other stuff with the Man on it is made by participants, not the Burning Man LLC (except maybe for the calendar, I don't know about that, but, even so, that's not for marketing purposes). Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:31:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#573d6c49-2e73-479f-8d58-635278ad581b Neon 2006-10-24T22:31:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#679f4cc6-0b53-43e4-9c01-9593e1906d27 my advice: sit down. raise funds to make a huge art project. make something as insanely cool as the flower. refuse gobs money when someone wants to use it in a commercial. go through fundraising the same amount of money they offered you, to build more art. build more art (bigger this time). Stand up and start bitching again. I understand that everyone has different lines as far as how commercial they are willing to put up with, but just featuring the art in a commercial is fine. It's a feather in the cap of the artist. Hell the marketing slob at Lexus might have been a burner, and this was a way for him to divert some advertising dollars that would have gone to an agency to a real honest to goodness artist. kudos to everyone in that transaction. so by your standards all the stuff that is featured on cool neon showing finished products should never be shown again at burning man, because they are being used to promote el wire. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:26:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#679f4cc6-0b53-43e4-9c01-9593e1906d27 mirzu 2006-10-24T22:26:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4e8e6f2e-f2af-4c04-afe7-7623c327f16f I think it's great! I would love to get some money from lexus to make cool shit, and that show is chaulk full of cool shit. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:08:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4e8e6f2e-f2af-4c04-afe7-7623c327f16f mirzu 2006-10-24T22:08:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8123b9a2-0dda-4773-9d28-7d7a94c1d17e Well, ultimately everything is incomplete, but do tell, what did I get wrong? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:03:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8123b9a2-0dda-4773-9d28-7d7a94c1d17e Tedward 2006-10-24T22:03:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#210410ce-da8a-4007-a61a-0a062d431db5 //Sorry stacy, you're still dodging the point.// actually, you keep missing the point and i keep trying to bring you back to it. so, in a sense, im dodging your make believe points. in this you are correct! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:59:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#210410ce-da8a-4007-a61a-0a062d431db5 StacycatS 2006-10-24T21:59:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#24c2ee3c-87c6-4214-ba98-016306ccf1af ha! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:54:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#24c2ee3c-87c6-4214-ba98-016306ccf1af StacycatS 2006-10-24T21:54:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b41eee7b-a9a2-4986-bc53-e3177bd1aad5 TEDWARD. as part of the do lab i am asking you please do not speak for anyone other than yourself. please do not state things as fact when they are incomplete or assumption. thank you Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:51:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b41eee7b-a9a2-4986-bc53-e3177bd1aad5 daNGerpAntz 2006-10-24T21:51:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bdad68a6-906b-4a5e-bbcb-91a795df4048 Sorry stacy, you're still dodging the point. There have been big art pieces on the playa for quite some time, and not particular focus This Year on them. the population of the city has grown slowly, and that $10 of your ticket continues to add more funding to doing larger pieces, but no particular trend this year. You're broad slap about all burners being hippies was out of line, your argument was weak from the start, and your continuing insults scream Troll. Yes, the thread topic is marketing, but you were the one that made it a "good ole days" thing. The marketing isn't new, the size of the art isn't new. Even your little piano example is faulty because the Uchronian WAS ALL WASTE WOOD that would have been thrown out anyway. Just like the pianos. the Piano bell had to get transported out somehow. Ever wonder what it takes to get 80 pianos to the playa? Certainly more than the average delivery truck can manage, so he probably had outside funding sources too. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:49:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#bdad68a6-906b-4a5e-bbcb-91a795df4048 Tedward 2006-10-24T21:49:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3084ea2c-bea3-4f4f-9d00-40fc56eec430 I once had a really interesting life. During that time I became very, very used to seeing things show up in the mainstream media some length of time after I had discovered them. This is the first time it's happened to me in years. It's pretty much the job of the mainstream media to follow certain people around and try to repackage their interesting lives into the image-mongering tools of various corporations. It's not a very good job to have, and I'm glad I don't have it. But I'm very very glad to once again be one of the people they stalk. It's been a while. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:40:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3084ea2c-bea3-4f4f-9d00-40fc56eec430 Giles 2006-10-24T21:40:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3bd54e8d-5225-4be6-b0bc-2fd4fd5e44ea jezus christ tedward. youve got your panties in a bunch over the word focus. you want to argue semantics? that is also not the topic at hand here. the topic is burning man art in marketing. we are not on the same page as is evident by your point 1). theres a huge logic leap in the thought that something has to be brand spanking new in order it to be a focus. same with 2, shift or no shift, focuses change from year to year. 3 is too vague - attention is paid to a lot of things at bman, doesnt mean it cant be a focus and 4) i have no idea what that even means. im not goign to tell you what i originally meant by the word focus because i feel that you just want to argue semantics, and AGAIN - not what the thread was about. not what my post was abotu either, although i woudl have to go back and read the fuckign thing again to say for sure, youve gotten us so off track now. so please, twist this all around to make no sense - i will read it when i go home later and laugh at you over cocktails with my friends. itll be great! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:20:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3bd54e8d-5225-4be6-b0bc-2fd4fd5e44ea StacycatS 2006-10-24T21:20:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#46b904bb-5d6a-40c3-81c5-27cdb8660a1c You said: "my point was that this year there is a FOCUS on big big budgets and epic installations." And I think I have been clear that 1) Other years had Big art too, so this year was nothing new, and therefore couldn't be a focus 2) there was no shift from small art to big art, so no "focusing" of artistic endevous in general. 3) Attention is always paid to the big art peices so "this year" is incorrect for outside focus. 4) no "focus" was provided by funding or official avenues. i'm saying that I completely disagree with the idea that there was any particular 'focus" on big art or installations...This Year. You're dodginng because you have limmited debating skills and you apparently have only a flame war left as an arguement. Don't re-direct your shortcomings onto me. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:00:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#46b904bb-5d6a-40c3-81c5-27cdb8660a1c Tedward 2006-10-24T21:00:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d5df1d10-f366-411b-8b03-68a6cd8d79b0 RE: "The Lexus Promotion Team Goes to BM HOWEVER...once a piece of art has become an advertisement, me thinks it no longer belongs at Burning Man. Unless, of course, the artist finds a way to spoof said advertisment, thereby creating new art from old art." but the flower (Miracle Grow) has not become an advertisement, nor a logo. it was used in a promotion - it is not the new lexus logo by the reasoning you posit in your post, anything that is used in any way outside BM for profit can no longer go out to the playa. therefore, any performance artists that use a costume off playa for a paying gig should not use said costume on playa for entertainment - they're advertising their art, arent they? also, dance troupes should not use their troupe names out on playa if they've ever been paid for their performances by this logic.... and i could go on..... but there is a real difference here... IF the flower were to go out to the playa with lexus advertising/logos on the vehicle itself, that'd be becoming an advertisement...... but the flower itself is/has not become an advertisement/logo in and of itself. how many artists promote themselves out on the playa? how many DJs promote themself or their music style out there? should we ban all of them because they are adverstising their skills? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:54:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d5df1d10-f366-411b-8b03-68a6cd8d79b0 )'( Mr Skirblah )'( 2006-10-24T20:54:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a71175c0-0ce6-41d0-9d86-2bd9bd7aaf1c Well, first, I didn't see it that way. a lot of people just reply to the last post as a general statement, particularly when the item gets long enough that scrolling gets to be a -thing-. I thought she was heading for the general timbre of the thread, not Neon. On a specific point, "I'd love to hear all sides of thought on this.." is kind of an invitation to get that sort of responce; as is calling the flower a corporate Logo. My friend Dusty did a pop-n-lock routine for Mitsubishi. Does that mean she's not allowed to dance durning her shifts at the Center Camp Cafe? sheesh. And if you go to the lexus site, you will see that the corporate logo is still the circle with the sytlized L in it. http://www.lexus.com/ Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:51:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a71175c0-0ce6-41d0-9d86-2bd9bd7aaf1c Tedward 2006-10-24T20:51:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1b52790e-d347-47b5-afe4-74a451426793 //Pfft. you're still dodging. // yes. i am dodging a silly flame war with you about who is cool in LA and the dates of various playa instalations. because the thread isnt about these things. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:43:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1b52790e-d347-47b5-afe4-74a451426793 StacycatS 2006-10-24T20:43:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b608dd8a-dcb4-48d0-8c00-7b52a7ebe741 >Jewel, You go gUrl... < Go what? A non-specific slam to everyone on the thread? Jewel's response was unfair and nasty for no reason. Neon asked a specific question, looking for a fair debate. Most responses to him were just slams for no reason Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:40:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b608dd8a-dcb4-48d0-8c00-7b52a7ebe741 Peter 2006-10-24T20:40:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#942021df-a7da-43c7-9312-472a349cf341 Pfft. you're still dodging. Insult me all you like (and I do not deny getting combative occasionally), but you're still not being clear. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:34:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#942021df-a7da-43c7-9312-472a349cf341 Tedward 2006-10-24T20:34:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#007f629a-dae2-451e-8dac-9254fa100afe ""The user icons are artistic character creations in modern day mythos. " Sounds like a dodge to me. You could make an icon with a real picture, or even draw one using your own art, but, rather, you chose a South Park icon, generated by an application specifically intended to be reminiscent of the show. Yeah, you're not using the actual corporate logo, but clearly the artistic style is designed to link you to the show in some fashion. It would be like writing a book in 15 languages all mashed together and claiming that it had nothing to do with James Joyce. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:30:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#007f629a-dae2-451e-8dac-9254fa100afe Tedward 2006-10-24T20:30:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4a8bbc2e-900d-4a90-a1be-fd57da89206d i'm sorry, but NO not mythos.... copycatting* a tv show, yes; but mythos - hell no. ulness, your are now following the religion of south park *yes, i did say copycatting. the artistic creation was done by the original south park creators, not those of us (yes, I am included as i have a couple sp characters) that have copied their characters. we did not create them, we copied them - with some personal flair to make them our 'own', but the fact remains that the south park personal characters are NOT of our creation - they are copies of someone else's creation. and they sure the hell are not a mythos - at least for me...... as to them being an advertisement or logo.... not for the original show, however, they do promote the show; IF for no other reason, simply because they are immediately recognized as south park characters Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:26:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4a8bbc2e-900d-4a90-a1be-fd57da89206d )'( Mr Skirblah )'( 2006-10-24T20:26:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e8a5a211-12f1-43c5-b2de-0ff93937623f //no, I'm saying that your statement about "focus" is vague enought that it doesn't MEAN anything. Who's focus? BM, BMorg, the media?// its clear you dont care to actually HEAR the answer to your question since you are so quick go off on instead of simply asking for clarification in the first place. youre no fun to spar with tedward. your wit bites but you lack humor. i am weary of you. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:20:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e8a5a211-12f1-43c5-b2de-0ff93937623f StacycatS 2006-10-24T20:20:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#ac1bf717-2c5a-49c0-958a-6c66df6534ff <<Um the website, t-shirts-coffee mugs-stamped on everything related to the event at all. >> I don't think that's promoting the event so much as promoting the t-shirts, coffee mugs, etc. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:18:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#ac1bf717-2c5a-49c0-958a-6c66df6534ff Mushroom Girl 2006-10-24T20:18:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0b44cb6a-ada4-4b0f-825b-03eb99f93129 Ahh, I see what you were going for originally. Yes, they spent several grand in renting and transporting the crane for all three rentals (once for 2005, twice for 2006), which got put on a credit card -instead of being funded by BMorg-. And the flower parts (lights, material, etc) were privately funded too. But the AS people are the industry types who can recover from that, and the DoLab people throw legendary parties to help fund it. So, at no point do they need to "sell out" to make the flowers happen. Most of the funding from the Lexus deal paid for the crane rental and transportation of the flower, and some key people to operate it. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:17:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#0b44cb6a-ada4-4b0f-825b-03eb99f93129 Tedward 2006-10-24T20:17:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d9e3eac8-2d53-4760-81e2-0e4a799f8ad0 <<isn't your user icon a sort of corporate logo?>> The user icons are artistic character creations in modern day mythos. They are not the same as advertisements or logos. To say so would be akin to reducing every character in a book or story to a commercial, the supportive argument being that authors get paid. As a writer I find that analogy ridiculous. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:16:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d9e3eac8-2d53-4760-81e2-0e4a799f8ad0 Mushroom Girl 2006-10-24T20:16:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b2bd493-f8df-4ad5-8406-6a7104b4e7ff //My point precisely. The gang at Abundant sugar combined with the Do Labs, Dream collective and a bunch of other artists built both flowers here in LA. The AS team is also the regional contact team now.// well, thats all good and lovely. no idea what it has to do with anythign being discussed here, but okay! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:16:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#2b2bd493-f8df-4ad5-8406-6a7104b4e7ff StacycatS 2006-10-24T20:16:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#abda158e-c0d3-43d0-acb0-0b2fb301606c "Um the website, t-shirts-coffee mugs-stamped on everything related to the event at all." don't forget tattoos. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:16:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#abda158e-c0d3-43d0-acb0-0b2fb301606c Avidd 2006-10-24T20:16:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4a2c9805-f572-4490-93af-4b9533045881 no, I'm saying that your statement about "focus" is vague enought that it doesn't MEAN anything. Who's focus? BM, BMorg, the media? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:07:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#4a2c9805-f572-4490-93af-4b9533045881 Tedward 2006-10-24T20:07:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#fec9e898-2946-4344-9df6-ef535ded4dad My point precisely. The gang at Abundant sugar combined with the Do Labs, Dream collective and a bunch of other artists built both flowers here in LA. The AS team is also the regional contact team now. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:05:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#fec9e898-2946-4344-9df6-ef535ded4dad Tedward 2006-10-24T20:05:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e92416c0-2014-4e0b-befe-cad535f20808 I was a bit nonplussed the first time i saw that lexus commercial. I tend to get a bit "possessive" about the art I see and love on the playa. However, I want other people to see things like that giant flower, even if its via a car commercial. It doesnt take away from my experience of seeing the flower and the venus flytrap in all their full sized amazing glory on the playa this year and the year before. More power to the giant flower. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:58:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e92416c0-2014-4e0b-befe-cad535f20808 Elaine~ 2006-10-24T19:58:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#32180930-75f0-49cc-bbd2-42650a7d0834 //So, you spend a lot of time at Abundant Sugar, do you?// your injoke doesnt register here. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:48:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#32180930-75f0-49cc-bbd2-42650a7d0834 StacycatS 2006-10-24T19:48:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#fac4a3bc-6c4a-4484-8d05-5011cd305563 so ted, what yorue saying is that the focus changes each year so why mention it? //It's not like the BMorg said "if you don't do it BIG, you won't get funding..." // yah well, its not like i said that either, so whats your problem, other than you just want to go off? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:47:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#fac4a3bc-6c4a-4484-8d05-5011cd305563 StacycatS 2006-10-24T19:47:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#672d833e-6820-44d2-8fd7-0b5814b321ce "you all need to get your stories straight here, people! " So, you spend a lot of time at Abundant Sugar, do you? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:45:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#672d833e-6820-44d2-8fd7-0b5814b321ce Tedward 2006-10-24T19:45:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69ee3dfb-4f49-4568-855a-77f64ebc17e7 "a focus"? Yes a lot of people are fixated on the big things, but it's not like there was an overt amount of them, or that it's anything new, or that there weren't a LOT of smaller art pieces there. Your arguement is pointless. I could just as easily say that there wasnt a "focus" on the keyhole art this year compared to the last few years. Or that the promenade to the Man was downplayed by comparison to 2000. It's not like the BMorg said "if you don't do it BIG, you won't get funding..." No. People get fixated on the big things from EVERY year: the giant gold lion, the green laser, laser man, a couple of the Temples, that big stone /thing/ at the keyhole, the gigantic colored glass sphere, the ego of every performer who lists "performed on BM Main Stage" in their past events column, and the Flower .... Last year. Heck, you've got the Serpent Mother on your bio page as your favorite art. But it wasn't that much bigger than the angel last year. It's just that the Lotus girls keep challenging themselves to go bigger and more impressive, do their stuff gets bigger. it's not like they decided this year: "Hey, let's do something really Big..." Get real Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:42:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#69ee3dfb-4f49-4568-855a-77f64ebc17e7 Tedward 2006-10-24T19:42:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a9db0d5c-230a-44cd-a5ce-40d4c7eae262 jewels: "Did you know the flower car people went into thousands of dollars of debt BOTH YEARS to get those sculptures out to you? How do you think they pay off those credit cards?" tedward: "The people who built the flower don't NEED to sell their asses. They all have nice Industry jobs. That Lexus deal did NOTHING for their bottom line and it certainly didn't fund the Venus flytrap." you all need to get your stories straight here, people! and before you flip your lid about how can i begrudge artists makign a living.... you might want to make sure that i am disagreeing with you, first. the issue is not black and white, neither is my original response. but - you will find one or the other if you ignore the intent of my message on the whole by nit picking it to death. if you wanna do that knock yourself out, but it isnt really debating the topic. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:29:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a9db0d5c-230a-44cd-a5ce-40d4c7eae262 StacycatS 2006-10-24T19:29:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#36c6e0bf-2bd7-4b98-8109-0d199e8fa73d no, that 1998 peice was not the piece im talking about. im talkign abotu the Piano Bell, althouh i am not sure what difference it makes, really. the year is insignifigant, dont get hung up on it. my point was that this year there is a FOCUS on big big budgets and epic installations. my point was not that this was the first time the playa had large installtions or big budgets. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:23:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#36c6e0bf-2bd7-4b98-8109-0d199e8fa73d StacycatS 2006-10-24T19:23:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b00f4c4d-fca3-44f5-bc32-cd7c4ea417af Stacy, you say "this year" like it's a new thing. How much money has gone into building the Man evey year? How about that gigantic green laser that Emerald City brought in? What about Center fuggin Camp? Don't make this sound like a new thing. The 96-06 thing is getting old. Are you referring to the 1998 peice? http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=5575 Was that the same year as: http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=10628 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=10612 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=9960 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=9782 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=9784 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=2251 http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=2255 The people who built the flower don't NEED to sell their asses. They all have nice Industry jobs. That Lexus deal did NOTHING for their bottom line and it certainly didn't fund the Venus flytrap. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:07:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b00f4c4d-fca3-44f5-bc32-cd7c4ea417af Tedward 2006-10-24T19:07:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#707ba1ff-7388-4485-abdd-a4234b1afe34 "burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves. " "bunch of ungrateful hippie snobs. " What's with all these generalizations? Damn, I feel like I just got spit on for no reason. Thanks. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:59:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#707ba1ff-7388-4485-abdd-a4234b1afe34 Dusty Nipples (Kim) 2006-10-24T18:59:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5eb5af09-f17b-4338-9bd9-6e006621a417 in 96 there was this awesome sculpture made from like 80 pianos. the guy who did it was a piano delivery guy, people often gave him the old piano when he delviered the new. they put them in a huge pile then they burned it at the end. no luber to recycle, no 'who paid for this!', no lexus, just pianos. that was cool. this year the focus is on HUGE budget works. those are great and all, but you know - you dont have to spend 3 months ont he playa building, and you dont have to spend tens of thousands to do it, either. i mean, you can if you want. but then you gotta sell your ass - and everyone elses along with it. keep in mind - burners are self righteous hippies who dont want to pay for anything themselves. we are not the demographic. we are the *product* being sold to more profitable demographics. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:42:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#5eb5af09-f17b-4338-9bd9-6e006621a417 StacycatS 2006-10-24T18:42:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#14ca6106-3d0c-4d68-8790-d501ec72210a Jewel, You go gUrl... The starving artist thing is so playaed out. Artists getting funding from the church CREATED the middle class and changed the face of politics forever. You can bitch about the flower when it returns to BM *with* a Lexus logo on it. THAT would be against the codes of Burningman. Taking the Flower to Chicago and showing it off (even as a corporate logo) is PART of the BM mindset, and is, in fact EXACTLY the point of the regional network: to take a little bit of burningman to the general populace. Not everyone can GO to BM, and let's face it, we don't want them to. But if dedicated artists continue to go to the event, get inspired and do BIG stuff. They should take that out to the public whenever they can. How about the Temple being built in SF? How about the LA artist that constructed and art piece for LA city based on a BM idea? How about 1000 fire performers making extra money using moves and routines developed for BM? How about every damn person in this tribe helpinng to support a commercial enterprise by TALKING about it? *sheesh* people. Think before you type.... Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:39:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#14ca6106-3d0c-4d68-8790-d501ec72210a Tedward 2006-10-24T18:39:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2559e04-7fad-4ca8-912d-64abcfb2fa18 Jeez...Jewel...as far as i can tell, I'm the only one here being "a judgine hypocrite poser snob" --why are you so mad at everyone else? I agree with a lot of what you said...it's rad for people in Chicago to get to see the flower and it's very cool that the people who built it get to re-coup some of thier expenses. I don't think I'm telling anyone what to do...just expressing my opinions and feelings about something--but thanks for insinuating that I have power over others...that feels kind of good! I do not see what I'm saying as hypocritocal...yes I have to make money, yes, i even advertise in order to do, yes i read and watch advertisements, yes I buy things, yes i bought a car...AND, for one week out of the year, at Burning Man, I like to take a break from all of it. Why does that make you soooo mad? I go to other events too, and I have no problem with the commerce there...that's what they are about and that's fine..I am a big purchaser of art, I support artists in every way I can...but why can't we have one event where there is no advertising and only a minimum amount of commerce? (personally I could do without the cafe and ice, but okay, I can live with it). Also, I don't see how you got to the ungrateful part...I am so very grateful for Burning Man and for all the people who work their asses off to make it happen...and for all the time and money and thought and team work that goes into it. I love Burning Man, that's why I'd like to keep Lexus out of it. If people want to sell their stuff after the event, that's fine with me. And my humble opinion is that once they've done that, it's time to move on to other stuff and let go of what is now an advertisement. And if people don't want to do that, they don't have to listen to me, I'm just saying what I think. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:36:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#a2559e04-7fad-4ca8-912d-64abcfb2fa18 Neon 2006-10-24T18:36:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b2847d24-98de-4e46-b5fc-d2894dc63c48 The man is not "advertising" Its "branding" similar but different concepts Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:26:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#b2847d24-98de-4e46-b5fc-d2894dc63c48 Alex 2006-10-24T18:26:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#833e8e70-b718-4ce2-8c21-52ceb3ca4e59 How is the Man used to promote the event? >> Um the website, t-shirts-coffee mugs-stamped on everything related to the event at all. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:17:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#833e8e70-b718-4ce2-8c21-52ceb3ca4e59 Alex 2006-10-24T18:17:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#535442fc-4013-412e-a520-b41e053b9b43 I think it's fabulous to spread the BM vibe to anyone out there - esp those who may never make it to BM -- who knows what sorts of new ideas will come into those peoples' lives, who got a chance to see those RAD FLOWERS rumbing down the blustery streets of Chicago? BE f*ckin grateful those guys are outthere, spreading the word - and I'm thrilled ANYONE paid them for their time to make it happen. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:14:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#535442fc-4013-412e-a520-b41e053b9b43 Jewel 2006-10-24T18:14:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c1371500-0837-477c-9a65-efcf50cf65e3 Jesus, what a bunch of judging hypocrite poseur snobs! What - do you all live off air all year? None of you drive a car? How do you pay for your weed? What gives you the right to tell anyone what to do? Did you know the flower car people went into thousands of dollars of debt BOTH YEARS to get those sculptures out to you? How do you think they pay off those credit cards? Should they run their lives past you to get your OK's before they make a move? This is the sort of BASELESS BM anti snobbery I hate. Listen, I go to another event in February, put on for over 25 years by a bunch of full-on working artists (pro's teachers, etc) -- and they have NO PROBLEM with however artists make their livings all year, including bringing their art to sell at the event (a four-day seminar, the Yuma Art Symposium). I brought this very issue up with them, explaining the kind of non-commercial obsession a lot of burners prattle on about. They just laughed, saying, "Hey, it's feckin hard to make aliving as an artist, so any way you cna do it, hat's off to you!" Run your own lives, you bunch of ungrateful hippie snobs. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:11:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#c1371500-0837-477c-9a65-efcf50cf65e3 Jewel 2006-10-24T18:11:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3955cfd7-8a13-4c6b-96b0-f0f1e950c0d9 I agree...artists making a living...Yeah! And I do appreciate the creative and artistic elements of advertising...lately there have been a number of really good dance pieces in television ads and i totally appreciate the choreography, filming and the fact that these dancers found work. HOWEVER...once a piece of art has become an advertisement, me thinks it no longer belongs at Burning Man. Unless, of course, the artist finds a way to spoof said advertisment, thereby creating new art from old art. That doesn't mean I don't still admire and appreciate the flower...but now, in addition to being an awesome work of art, it is an advertizement and I think that letting it back on the playa is the same as deciding that Burning Man will now support commerce. That's my opinion, feel free to disagree. I'd love to hear all sides of thought on this... Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:54:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3955cfd7-8a13-4c6b-96b0-f0f1e950c0d9 Neon 2006-10-24T17:54:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#11aaf64c-cae8-4fa4-95ea-8ed0671a5a8e uggg I don't even know where to begin. Art and Burningman influencing big buisness =good Artists making money=good Burningman turning into a marketing ploy=bad As far as grants and paid BM staff goes we get enough for materials and shipping(we have to come up with ALOT of our own money) Most DPW get nothing to maybe $500 a month(try paying your rent and living in the desert for 3 months on that)but we don't do it for the money.We do it for the love of it and You all. Just my 2 cents(thats alot of mulla for me) -Otto Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:24:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#11aaf64c-cae8-4fa4-95ea-8ed0671a5a8e Otto 2006-10-24T17:24:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6a18402c-0db8-46e0-871c-587a831a7f85 many people got grants, yes, my crew, temple crew included. its not the same as being paid, like an hourly wage or a salary. we temple crew are all volunteers, grant money went to supplies, we paid for our food and we took time out of our lives (3-4 weeks) to be there and build the temple. i don't know about everyone, but i do know all the uchronians were paid a wage to be on the playa and work on the playa. i'm not saying i have a problem with that, i am glad artists are being paid for their work, i just want to clarify. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:04:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6a18402c-0db8-46e0-871c-587a831a7f85 elizabeth 2006-10-24T17:04:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e954e3d2-c3df-49b4-b19b-9941733b759b YEAH!!!! Artists making a living YEAH, YEAH, YEAH! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:36:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e954e3d2-c3df-49b4-b19b-9941733b759b Peter 2006-10-24T13:36:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6c7662c8-53e1-45c8-a45f-4e3cd705cdfe I don't have a problem with them mentioning Burningman in the context of the artists bio, most BMan artists include their playa work in their bios. Here's the quote I thought was interesting, from the news article about the new Lexus... "We believe that the all-new ES 350 epitomizes Lexus' new design direction," says Bob Carter, Lexus group vice president and general manager. "Every element of this vehicle invites participation—both visual and tactile. Its design is something drivers will need to experience and not just observe." Participation? Odd choice of wording for a car promo. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:21:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#6c7662c8-53e1-45c8-a45f-4e3cd705cdfe Dusty Nipples (Kim) 2006-10-24T13:21:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1fe6f084-2f56-4d56-9c13-242ec70bed55 Your understanding is wrong. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:33:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#1fe6f084-2f56-4d56-9c13-242ec70bed55 Amanda 2006-10-24T10:33:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3f12f380-10d7-432d-87c3-f972b589ede1 and the waffle! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:33:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3f12f380-10d7-432d-87c3-f972b589ede1 Giles 2006-10-24T07:33:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#961f80ad-15c4-4fda-b104-ad30f2ec9c66 Oddly, i find this more disturbing: http://www.lexus.com/460degrees/ They actually mention bm in the site, if you look at the artist page. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 06:46:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#961f80ad-15c4-4fda-b104-ad30f2ec9c66 $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-24T06:46:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#20f53d19-1abb-4083-9010-964d819f1766 Elizabeth wrote : everybody goes to BRC: lots of corporations go and they study us, the "burners". I read some time ago about stealth marketing, where for example someone will come up to you on the street and ask for you to take a picture of them with their new camera, they'll quickly show you how to use it and say how they just got it and really like it. You snap the picture, they say thanks and move on to the next victim. Chances are you didn't even know you were being marketed to. I'm wondering if that type of marketing has infiltrated the playa. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 06:22:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#20f53d19-1abb-4083-9010-964d819f1766 Bobzilla 2006-10-24T06:22:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#44b8205d-6ec8-45ad-b283-e2cdaa532dfb I heard that BM06 was sponsored by the Winnemucca Piggly Wiggly! I would be very happy if my artwork of made me money, especially if I could keep using it afterwards for my own purposes. So who do your work for? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 06:15:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#44b8205d-6ec8-45ad-b283-e2cdaa532dfb GXAOUI 2006-10-24T06:15:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9a2b4fbd-2a70-4d56-87ac-e3a9ee6956a2 >> it just hasnt been attached to a car yet I've seen it attached to a lot of cars, even mine ;) Tue, 24 Oct 2006 06:12:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9a2b4fbd-2a70-4d56-87ac-e3a9ee6956a2 Gold Guy 2006-10-24T06:12:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3c71d29b-0003-40e3-8bc1-79aef3fd3fc2 Oh, and uh, Get Him!! Sas : ) Tue, 24 Oct 2006 05:53:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3c71d29b-0003-40e3-8bc1-79aef3fd3fc2 Sasquatch 2006-10-24T05:53:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8b2ebfdd-67a9-4574-b9f7-b8e179bf282a "isnt the very symbol of the Man, an advertising icon?" Kind of depends on your definition of "advertising." The definition I'm familiar with has to do with commerce. Under that definition the Burning Man emblem's no more advertising than the emblem of the 101st airborne division or greenpeace. A symbol denoting a purpose, mission, intent or use. Sas Tue, 24 Oct 2006 05:52:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#8b2ebfdd-67a9-4574-b9f7-b8e179bf282a Sasquatch 2006-10-24T05:52:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9354f44c-0a6d-40d7-a6b9-a5ce6d057e90 How is the Man used to promote the event? Tue, 24 Oct 2006 05:44:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#9354f44c-0a6d-40d7-a6b9-a5ce6d057e90 Neon 2006-10-24T05:44:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e2de233b-d5ff-4892-8371-22e8527bbc4c Just my 2 cents worth ............. and believe me, I DONT want to get mugged in the alley for this, but, isnt the very symbol of the Man, an advertising icon? To say that all advertising is bad or poison, well then the event that is so coveted as being advertisment free is actually its own greatest advertisment. The symbol of the Man is recognizable to at least everyone who has ever attended one, and by the millions more that have heard of it. Its really no different than the flower, it just hasnt been attached to a car yet, but it is used to promote the event and products(bootleg or authorized). with a paying audience of 40,000+ I'd say its a pretty effective tool. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 04:48:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#e2de233b-d5ff-4892-8371-22e8527bbc4c $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-24T04:48:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7f83f062-cbe6-475e-835d-6292e5eeef3a I hope you don't let this information ruin the beauty of the flower for what it is, an increadible peice of art. I think if that happens, you are the one who will be missing out. I actually knew about the usage of the flower back when it actually happened but once on the playa, I don't think it came up in my mind once, esp not when they came and lowered the flower down right above us at the False Profit party on Tuesday night. Or when they did that amazing performace right before they burned Uchrniona. Hey, maybe that burn was sponsored by Lexus! I kid, I kid. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:58:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#7f83f062-cbe6-475e-835d-6292e5eeef3a $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-24T03:58:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#390a4a45-1019-4c92-ae83-ada6ef4a1456 My user icon ISN'T AT BURNINGMAN. sorry for yelling... i'm not saying i don't use advertising...it's everywhere...that's the problem...at burningman it's not everywhere and i happen to like that...it's a break or a vacation from the constant bombardment of media and advertising...now when i see that flower, it's like a big advertisement in the middle of the playa. and that makes me sad. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:45:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#390a4a45-1019-4c92-ae83-ada6ef4a1456 Neon 2006-10-24T03:45:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#12742503-2ae2-4356-8d1f-4e672111368b isn't your user icon a sort of corporate logo? doesn't it represent some tv show or movie or something? have you been poisoned too? just curious. i do hear you, i cringe when i hear old tunes that i love used in commercials... i don't like advertising, tv and the like and i do understand your saddness about the flower's real world work. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:38:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#12742503-2ae2-4356-8d1f-4e672111368b elizabeth 2006-10-24T03:38:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3274b6c7-f7ad-4a09-9754-058f7bbe7358 "The uchronians were all paid to be on the playa, as were many of the welders of the statues at center camp as were many others in the city. " The artists who created the Giants at Center Camp have been making art for many years and I for one am thrilled when they can support themselves with their art. Receiving a grant may be the same as "getting paid" but that is not a pejorative term. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:37:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#3274b6c7-f7ad-4a09-9754-058f7bbe7358 affinity 2006-10-24T03:37:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#45c79e84-5a2c-4ab0-9a70-be6feb1df196 It is my understanding that the Uchronians were all volunteers nor did they receive a grant. They desire to change the way the economy works. It may not replicate the change you or I desire, but in fact it is a different approach, which we all seem to be clamoring for. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:33:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#45c79e84-5a2c-4ab0-9a70-be6feb1df196 affinity 2006-10-24T03:33:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d041c507-1ece-40aa-92b6-8896305a2b9d I have to say, and this is straight from my heart, seeing that flower hooked up to a corporation makes me sad....real sad. I will never see that flower again without thinking Lexus. The flower has been poisoned. That's just how I feel. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:30:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d041c507-1ece-40aa-92b6-8896305a2b9d Neon 2006-10-24T03:30:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#204bb8c2-7bdd-4a56-bd8d-92584c51632e We have become a nation of posers. It's not a life that's lived or shared, but an imitation of life, a kind of commercial for self. It's as if we ourselves are now TVs and broadcast images. America is now wealthier than at any other time in its history, yet all around us and within us a feeling of lurking anomie persists. The spread of materialistic values has contributed to a moral coarsening and a growing cynicism in our country. Within a manipulative world all motives seem venal, all efforts illusory. But at a deeper level, it is the commodification of imagination itself, the moral passivity, the social isolation, the angst that is generated by living in a solipsistic world of fraudulent satisfactions that is producing the greatest evil. Critics call for better values. Yet to even entertain a moral value one must first be someone in a world beyond one's self. The vital here and there of spiritual experience is disappearing from our world. The world, in some nauseating fashion, no longer appears to belong to itself." -- Larry Harvey Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:07:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#204bb8c2-7bdd-4a56-bd8d-92584c51632e Kent 2006-10-24T03:07:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#404d0f11-fd9e-42b1-a308-e7179bbc7d38 I talked to two kids in there early 20's AT burningman who were working for Subaru as part of Subaru's leave no trace program. They travel all over in a Subaru and talk to people about leaving no trace. They were standing next to the Subaru with corporate logo's splashed on it. (I think they had just gotten to BM) They go to events that are held in nature and help educate people about LNT. I asked them why it was OK for them to have the Subaru stuff so prominant and they didn't have a clue there was anything wrong with it. They were quite excited to have burningman as one of their stops. It seemed very foreign to them to cover up a logo. I imagine most events they go to were quite the opposite. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 02:50:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#404d0f11-fd9e-42b1-a308-e7179bbc7d38 $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-24T02:50:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#567f5c2b-0d91-4d4b-b947-e16539f4903c Namaste Elizabeth. Nourishment and hydration are certainly a must for all burners. Many thanks for your contributions this year. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 02:30:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#567f5c2b-0d91-4d4b-b947-e16539f4903c ~Dragon~ 2006-10-24T02:30:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0403978-68e6-4388-8314-e6fea709ea90 amazing, incredible creative forces being paid for what they do best? sounds like something to support rather than argue. it's a fucked up world for sure and the strangest possibilities, like lexus teaming up with the flower, exist. The uchronians were all paid to be on the playa, as were many of the welders of the statues at center camp as were many others in the city. The giant flowers ROCK and bring joy to people, they are also expensive to operate..... with fuel and operators and so on..... everybody goes to BRC: lots of corporations go and they study us, the "burners". If they discover new things (like the flower) and want to promote them in the "real" world, and they want to pay to do it, our artists are then empowered to create more and better art for BRC next time. I own a company, we created a version of ourselves at BRC, we didn't sell anything and didn't really promote our products, our intention was to hydrate people in the desert cuz hydration is our business and the desert is hot and dusty. It's an honor to have the opportunity to gift our sacred art to the masses on the playa and its equally an honor that back at home, people pay us for our art. Tue, 24 Oct 2006 02:24:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#d0403978-68e6-4388-8314-e6fea709ea90 elizabeth 2006-10-24T02:24:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#42b32973-57bf-482f-8da4-e8be9df9c511 go here: http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2006/10/lexus_460_degre.php which leads to this: http://www.quinzeandmilan.tv/ which has connections w/ this: http://www.uchronians.org/ Lexus also used the giant flower last year to for a launch of one of their cars in Chicago: http://archidose.blogspot.com/2006/02/magnificent-money.html Let the debate begin about making money off of the art of BM! Tue, 24 Oct 2006 02:07:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/ff7c6d67-8e35-4557-bad9-f99b02661921#42b32973-57bf-482f-8da4-e8be9df9c511 $item.owner.firstName 2006-10-24T02:07:47Z