Tribe.net. Local Connections Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#26c5dfdb-5783-47a5-b684-218d55edccd8 2006-10-07T21:27:46Z 2006-10-07T21:27:46Z

I'm completely comfortable too. Like I've said, I don't think there were any significant irregularities, I doubt that any of the ones I observed (multiple votes from single ips) were fraud, and again, likely not sigfnificant even if they were. I have no problem with anything except that little cock's lying claims that he never lies (ha!), is not nefarious, never argues with me, and that the Demagogue is 100% fraud proof. I offered the argument only to pull back the curtain on his pathetic manipulations.

Nesdon 2006-10-07T21:27:46Z Freewil http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#8490c382-27c0-439d-8393-991ce1b77cec 2006-10-07T21:21:49Z 2006-10-07T21:21:49Z

hi cj;;;thank you for sharing here on tribe... your posts are well writen and even your replys to flaming are interesting... l get to a point where l skip all the flamers posts and simplly read your replys... may have an answer to what was different in 06 and will start a new thread so it won't get lost in this one... have a good journey and am sure we will meet in person sometime... the tribe party was another good idea... enjoy;;;freewil

Freewil 2006-10-07T21:21:49Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#4dea1953-e3a9-41c3-b4f6-39cd706014fc 2006-10-07T20:23:26Z 2006-10-07T20:23:26Z

Nesdon, is your problem with the vote for the Council, or the vote for the Art Grants? Regardless, I am comfortable with the Demagogue's voting results in both elections. I don't think we had a problem with ballot stuffing. While I don't put Chicken John above such tactics, I think it's beneath Kiko, and I think Kiko would have known. I think you're off on a conspiracy theory here, Nesdon, and I haven't seen one other person that's with you on this.

$item.owner.firstName 2006-10-07T20:23:26Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#04b06a88-c754-44ec-a850-d61da5031c31 2006-10-07T20:12:13Z 2006-10-07T20:12:13Z

"I stopped argueing with you a long time ago, but you havn't noticed." For the record this is just more of his BS, he came down hard on me with in the middle of my voting thread regarding the Demagogue voting software. He's never stopped arguing with me, it's just he knows he has no hope of ever winning an arguement with me, so he pretends. And to set the record straight, It is in fact true that it is possible to stuff the Demagogue's ballot box, despite his sour disclaimer. The capure, not rejection, of IP addresses makes it possible to try and track down stuffers. We did find numerous multiple votes from single IPs. One could assume that they were always cases where two people share a compter, (as I do this one with my sister), or were separate computers on a common network (as in the BMorg office). So at least there is a potential safeguard (given one wanted to spend the time to track them down) against one person using a number of alt ids from the same computer, which would raise this red flag. But, there is no safeguard in that system to protect agaisnt someone using multiple email addresses (I have 5) and voting using them from multiple locations. I have a computer at work, one at home, and often pick up emails at friend's homes. I could easily register a number of aliases, with verifyable and unique and street addresses, unique email addresses and IP's, and vote a number of times. Asking for SS#s Dr Lic #'s and other sensitive personal data would allow addtional verification if one wanted to check to verify that every id matched gov records, but this would be very cumbersome and time consuming. CJ's blatantly false statement that fraud was impossible, his false statement that multiple votes from a single IP were automatically rejected, and probably false statement that NO ballot stuffing occurred during the Borg2 vote, are all PR BS. I will give the Demagogue credit for having excellent safeguards. No one could votes hundreds of times without huge effort. A few folk might be capable of getting away with doubling or tripling their votes, a few might have, we never really checked. But that may be nearly as good as any online system can get. I frankly don't recall the exact data the Demagogue collected. In another bit of mendacity, it is not, as was claimed, an Open Source, application any more than the code for my Firewall was open source as was also promised. We have no way now of reviewing any of the data or how and what was collected. And the Pacific Norwest Regional was offered the software, and chose not to use it.

Nesdon 2006-10-07T20:12:13Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#fb879000-5a5c-4116-b1ef-674c5c23e213 2006-10-06T11:21:46Z 2006-10-06T11:21:08Z

>Josh has never even been to BM, how could he agree with me? < It's Josh that's missing from BM.........................

Peter 2006-10-06T11:21:08Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#da92ad73-7fd1-4e90-8cb3-9ae435596c30 2006-10-06T00:50:00Z 2006-10-06T00:50:00Z

I once saw a little neighbor kid get run over by a truck. His mom was very protective, and was really worried about him getting hit by the traffic that ran too fast on the short cut that was our street. If he would start to run toward the street to chase a ball or a dog or something, she would grab him, scream, "No!" and give him a swat. I saw her do this a few times before the day he got both his legs broken. He was playing in his yard when his buddy kicked their ball over the cars and into the street. He took off after it, but when he got to the edge of the street, rather than looking for cars coming, he looked back over his shoulder to see if his mom was around, making sure he wasn't gonna get spanked, and ran right in front of a pick up truck with a glass rack on the back.

Nesdon 2006-10-06T00:50:00Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#1924261a-864c-45a3-afa6-73fc1e74aa32 2006-10-06T00:11:12Z 2006-10-06T00:11:12Z

Kind and gentle management style. Right. Proven scientific fact (because you said so). If that works for you, all power to ya. I'm a different person. Together; we represent an interesting diversity. One that I enjoy. I stopped argueing with you a long time ago, but you havn't noticed.

Chicken 2006-10-06T00:11:12Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#98cca5e6-cec7-4ae8-a7a1-ccb90f83f5e9 2006-10-05T22:06:15Z 2006-10-05T22:06:15Z

"Nothing catches flies like bovine fertilizer. Having tasted a mountain of that, I find I prefer Chicken John's vinegar." Mark Twain said, "A lie can walk around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." So I have to agree with you on the power of BS. I've tasted too much myself (some from Monsieur Poulet himself in fact), but arguing against the truth of my metaphor, does not constitute an argument against the truth of my argument. I surrender the aphorism to you with a touche (nice one there, Josh) but still stand by the idea that a generous, kind and loving managment style is more effective. There is good science behind it. Too often nice is equated with being a splineless pushover. One needs to be strong and consistant, but not degrading or cruel. I can hold to my demands that a subordinate or student complete a task to my standards without pouring vinegar on them.

Nesdon 2006-10-05T22:06:15Z delachaux http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#a18155b8-9d93-4954-af00-ea2b08e55c40 2006-10-05T19:52:08Z 2006-10-05T19:52:08Z

First you people killed Jesus... and now Josh. I miss him already. I'm gonna go nurse my sorrows over a few drinks with Mel Gibson. Maybe take a look at his new 'Passion of the Josh' screenplay.....

delachaux 2006-10-05T19:52:08Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#332e35c9-3335-43fb-a825-ea6b1703feab 2006-10-05T19:23:40Z 2006-10-05T19:23:40Z

Skylar writes: >>no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM.< people.tribe.net/orangeboxman Josh has never even been to BM, how could he agree with me? For the record, I asked Josh to join a single discussion 18 months ago. He's a smart feller, that Josh. I thought you might all enjoy him. But he has turned into a monster. So I guess I have to put the monster back in the box.... Josh, will you please leave these people alone? There. The deed is done. I found it fascinating and funny that he responded to the last order given. He's a weird guy, but composers are supposed to be dysfunctional disasters.... Josh write symponies that will likely neve get played. He has a phd is music of some sort... but works a McDonalds. Life as art, anyone? You are all so quick to dismiss Josh as tedious and boring. Or trite and annoying. I kinda disagree. Josh is a disaster, yes. But he is quickest with self-deprication and reports as if his opinions are facts... which is an intersting mimicry of what everyone else does on this board... me included. But all that's over now. A new day has dawned.... maybe I see you at the party toinght? PM me or Cowboy Angel for the address....

Chicken 2006-10-05T19:23:40Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#727bf04f-2c0f-4a95-8269-ca66a51b8365 2006-10-05T17:10:56Z 2006-10-05T17:10:56Z

<Except in LA, it seems. I have never met so many men in all my life who won't do a generous thing for a single woman, and just be their friend, without expecting sexual favors at some point. It's a landmine of selfish people out there. That's why BM will never happen on a larger scale...selfishness is man's undoing.> I suspect it's because you think of yourself as a woman rather than as a person. I had two ex-womanfriends whom I dated back when I lived in the alley back behind the Odeon bar. One of them got cat-called all the time with whistles and hoots, etc. She always wanted me to walk her the 5 blocks down Mission Street to BART when she went home. The other one never got any catcalls or whistles, and when I suggested that I walk her to BART she said, "Why? You just have to walk another 5 block back home. That's a waste of time for you." The difference, I think is that the first one thought of herself as a woman, the second as a person. The first was basically a glorified secretary, the second was a forensic toxicologist who investigated murder scenes. Now I can't speak to Los Angeles and any difference there might be between there and other places, but as to selfishness, I think it depends on survival. People can afford to be generous when they have things. When they don't they limit their generosity or stop it altogether. After all, survival is the ultimate goal.

David 2006-10-05T17:10:56Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#45761af8-0c7a-4393-8913-46fb95b91e14 2006-10-05T16:56:53Z 2006-10-05T16:56:53Z

>>no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM.< http://people.tribe.net/orangeboxman

Peter 2006-10-05T16:56:53Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#46daf287-ef69-4702-baf7-94cb651a7816 2006-10-05T16:47:44Z 2006-10-05T16:47:44Z

>>no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM.< < >tennis courts???< Liposuction.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-05T16:47:44Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#1d0c255d-9ac0-4b28-8cce-3bd5f9171c6a 2006-10-05T16:33:07Z 2006-10-05T16:33:07Z

Oh Nezzy, you are a funny person. lol!!!!!

Chicken 2006-10-05T16:33:07Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#ce4844dd-c83f-416f-b3c2-78f311f4b7f1 2006-10-05T16:06:38Z 2006-10-05T16:06:38Z

"If I didn't stir the pot, we wouldn't have anything to talk about some days..." Yes oh master, without you nothing would ever happen. You are our sun and moon. Everything originates for you, we are so grateful that you deign to help us find something to say. Here, let me wash your feet with my hair.

Nesdon 2006-10-05T16:06:38Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#c89c1c21-96e1-4eeb-9a90-96a828609b9e 2006-10-05T15:21:25Z 2006-10-05T15:21:25Z

>no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM.< tennis courts???

Peter 2006-10-05T15:21:25Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#495b95c7-20f8-40e6-bc6c-29cf8c5e8f6b 2006-10-05T15:07:25Z 2006-10-05T15:07:25Z

"who won't do a generous thing for a single woman, and just be their friend, " I've barely ever met an attractive single woman who would do a generous thing for a single man, period. I live in LA was born and raised here, and I am an exceedingly generous person, who helps out folk around me in need all the time. Me and my swiss army knife have rescued several hundred folk broke down by the side of the road over the years I've never expected or recieved a sexual favor for it, and help as many men as women. I help out just because I know how and enjoy feeling like a hero. But I really hate it when women use sexual cues and a flirtatious attitude to try and coerce single men into being generous. Most men tell me they love the attention, and like you say, many hope to work a guilt fuck out of it eventually. It is one of the foundations of gender politics and I think it's totally fucked up, as much for women who feel so disempowered that they feel like they need generous men in order to get by. I 'm just jumping on my soapbox here. I can't tell from your limited comment here if you, Schirin play the game that way, so no offense. But for me, a jaded old fat fuck, if you asked me to jumpstart your car, and put your hand on my shoulder, and smiled at me and flipped your hair, I'd put my swiss army back in my pocket and leave you stranded.

Nesdon 2006-10-05T15:07:25Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#61f33b35-0ced-4a10-ab87-7b1738c1c5dd 2006-10-05T15:05:52Z 2006-10-05T15:05:52Z

Hey Chicken, if I’m not there by 8:00 with my casserole dish full of bacon flavored Jello, Please feel free to start the fun with out me.

J9 JMF 2006-10-05T15:05:52Z Schirin http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#f73a9354-122f-4d52-a341-b1b639ecc86a 2006-10-05T04:03:27Z 2006-10-05T04:03:27Z

<This co-operation existed long before Burning Man existed. A lot of people at Burning Man think they have somehow discovered something new, and like anyone who has found religion, they are excited and anxious to lay it on everyone they see. But wait. The Burning Man people are actually the latecomers to this party. it's been going on all along.> Except in LA, it seems. I have never met so many men in all my life who won't do a generous thing for a single woman, and just be their friend, without expecting sexual favors at some point. It's a landmine of selfish people out there. That's why BM will never happen on a larger scale...selfishness is man's undoing.

Schirin 2006-10-05T04:03:27Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6bf2e8d0-610a-4798-9792-bacab4e9eb6f 2006-10-05T04:02:30Z 2006-10-05T04:02:30Z

<< I find it fascinating that no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM. >> I never did find out what you think is missing from BM. You hinted at it and made people guess but I never saw the answer.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-05T04:02:30Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d0aa6f93-a38d-478e-9954-c214e47da99d 2006-10-05T03:46:47Z 2006-10-05T03:46:47Z

Josh the orange box man is the smartest person I have ever met. He's totally useless, but wise, sharp and funny. I like him. I invited him here a year ago because I thought he was smart and we discuss things that aren't easy. He is good at that kind of stuff. There are a lot of smart people here. I'm having a party at my house with Cowboy Angel. It's a party to meet and get to know the peole who run Tribe.net. It's gratitude. We are their biggest tribe. I am a part of this tribe. Everyone from this tribe is invited, and all bets are off. All who come will have a wonderful time. There is an alterier motive, though.... I wanna meet the people from Tribe.net.... but I wanna meet the people from the BM tribe as well... and I have 3,000 sq feet. I have no profit motivaion. My thesis (or dissertation) or whatever will likely be (self) published. It's a collection of my experiences... not my (or anyone else's) ideas. I find it fascinating that no one agrees with me on what was missing from BM. It's all so complex... but watching it for 14 years and basicly becoming an adult within it's templet has been kinda great. I have a lot of amazing observations and good stories. But I don't want anything. I mean, Larry doesn't have anything that I want. J9 or Nedson or whatever... these people don't have something that I want. We disagree on HOW to go about doing things... but not on where we want to get to. We are here to discuss ideas. If I didn't stir the pot, we wouldn't have anything to talk about some days... so for that, you should appreciate me. And I appreciate you for implying that I am neafarious and sinister.... I have always wanted to be like that. Maybe I will be someday... But you should come to the party, if you like. It's your party as much as anyone elses and for tomorrow night my house is your house.

Chicken 2006-10-05T03:46:47Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#1e3689a3-b020-439c-aba4-6413490edb74 2006-10-05T02:19:56Z 2006-10-05T02:19:56Z

>Josh ain’t so bad. Flattery will get you nowhere. >The trick with Josh is you just got to keep it simple. Thank you for pointing this out. For all their psychobabble, no one has yet claimed either the $99 or the $29 dollars. Considering what my time is worth compared to other people's time, I think people on this tribe have actually come out at a greater financial loss that I have, in terms of mental resources wasted on questions it was not my intention to try to have them answer for me. >Trust me. It’s really boring. It's only boring for me when I hear the same things my parents used to say before they wound up in situations more like my own and had to admit that maybe I wasn't so full of shit after all. I prefer a fresh spin, at least. I do get SOME fresh spin here.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-05T02:19:56Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2e929970-1ec5-43e1-81ba-7c329d67ce91 2006-10-05T02:11:50Z 2006-10-05T02:11:50Z

>And sometimes the opposite is true, The opposite is true once you've burned all the deadwood that inevitably gets piled up around people like Chicken John if they're too nice. >I can assure you that you do catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I'm sure we've been over this. Nothing catches flies like bovine fertilizer. Having tasted a mountain of that, I find I prefer Chicken John's vinegar.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-05T02:11:50Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#8dad6c0d-cd9e-4792-8800-d3d2a9855e63 2006-10-05T02:05:09Z 2006-10-05T02:05:09Z

>but he uses it to annoy rather than inspire. To me, these 2 things are the same. When I pursue inspiration, it's really just a very slow way to use other people to annoy myself. When I skip inspiration and move straight to dealing with annoyances, I find I get a much better result in proportion to my efforts Your mileage may vary.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-05T02:05:09Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#67154b73-7a76-4673-a0a7-867cbf86940a 2006-10-05T00:53:31Z 2006-10-05T00:53:31Z

People are really very much like sheep, they can very easily be herded like a wolf. Ooops that's being heared by a wolf. I am a wolf with very bad typing skills :-)

J9 JMF 2006-10-05T00:53:31Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d8e35c72-abcf-469b-9aa4-3715b8f68a54 2006-10-05T00:36:57Z 2006-10-05T00:36:57Z

He uses it profit himself.... If he didn't think her could turn a buck off you he would never be your friend. Think about it is about connections. People are really very much like sheep, they can very easily be herded like a wolf. I am a wolf, I can see it. The little potluck he's having is just another step into him using another aspect of the media and an untouched group of people for showboating affairs. I’m I biased and Jaded... You fucking bet. Nesdon and I are old school we know how things should be. back in the day when people played nice. but I'm not a stupid sheep who is getting herded. and I'm not a troll I have paid my dues, I have build my art as a gift and have hugely participated. Janine

J9 JMF 2006-10-05T00:36:57Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2eff2e5e-e18c-43db-b52c-df4988915afa 2006-10-05T00:06:25Z 2006-10-05T00:06:25Z

<< But it ain’t like he’s just another dumb fuck either>> Clearly. I find him infinately preferable to Shirl. He's obviously intelligent but he uses it to annoy rather than inspire.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-05T00:06:25Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#64a4c653-e3c2-42dc-8c65-821752069db1 2006-10-04T23:12:48Z 2006-10-04T23:12:48Z

Nesdon, you are a sweet man I have seen you give a 110 %. and not hurt anyone in the process…… but what I'm seeing in the thread is just another way for Chicken to get what he wants. If Chicken speaks anymore, people just are starting to turn a deaf ear because the know its just going to end up in another flame war. But if someone else starts stirring the pot, Chicken great scam about "What's missing at Burningman" begins again. Personally, I don't think he has an original thought in his head. BUT, I do believe he's great at exploitation. As we continue to speak our valued and educated opinions, he is taking notes and turning them into "HIS GREAT" thesis. He like the fucking lazy ass computer chair researcher. Let it go……. Janine

J9 JMF 2006-10-04T23:12:48Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#13e3d00c-ad0c-4f44-897c-43250ebdb08a 2006-10-04T22:58:42Z 2006-10-04T22:58:42Z

"Sometimes nothing gets done unless someone gets irritated in the process." And sometimes the opposite is true, that getting irritated shortcircuits the whole thing. In fact I find that the processes that run on and thrive in love and appreciation are much more robust. Maybe that's the the only way he can get anything done, but there are lots of us who accomplish a great deal and are never rude or insulting. In fact I'm just wondering if that may be one of the keys to understanding why he hates me so much, that I am able to make things happen while being kind and generous, and it challenges his world view. Sure conflict makes a good show, but to make real changes, to real stuff in the real world with real people, his rude way is very often counter prodcutive. I have done considerable work in with applied behavioral psychology in difficult educational and management situations, and I can assure you that you do catch more flies with honey than vinegar. All animal trainers know this, no one uses adversive training techniques anymore, it has been proven time and time again that positive reinforcement schedules produce more durable behavior change. Hope springs eternal after all.

Nesdon 2006-10-04T22:58:42Z delachaux http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d164e327-3ba2-4e90-b812-a58c92988f2e 2006-10-04T19:45:41Z 2006-10-04T19:45:41Z

Whoa- easy there Skylar. NOT the question you want to ask him. Let me explain something about Josh. Josh ain’t so bad. But you have to be careful. I went round for round with him over all the typical items on this tribe some months back. True his penchant to sink every thread into tedious volumes about why he’s here can quite often be disparaging. And the whole transparent “Chicken John production” pretext is mostly just embarrassing at this point, most of all for Chick probably… who probably never predicted that his monster would find such a narcotic-like addiction to these threads (which you can be sure has probably far exhausted whatever original decree Chick set). The tragedy is compounded by the fact that, as we all know at this point, the guy should really be ungluing himself from tribe and be outdoors looking to make some ends somehow. But I’m not going to punch that tar baby again. Why push the morphine button for him again. But it ain’t like he’s just another dumb fuck either. On those rare but beautiful moments when he realizes that his opinions aren’t that original, that his strategy is hardly novel, and that most of us really aren’t the doped-out glazed-over glib Jonestown-like playa proselytizers that he seems to meet in the real world, then, and mostly then, he can lend some pretty compelling little zingers to the pot. I appreciate them anyway. The trick with Josh is you just got to keep it simple. Don’t go opening every window in the house or taking a flashlight into the woods and crawl right into his crackpipe by giving him the opportunity to run down the rabbit hole with all of his point-counterpoint--Chicken-John-sent-me-from-the-future-ping-pong-posting-ad-nauseum crap. Trust me. It’s really boring. Instead, just sit back and await the occasional shining aphorism. His best work (at least from what I’ve seen) is always contained within sexy little econo-maxims. The rest is just cotton candy.

delachaux 2006-10-04T19:45:41Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7c936ed5-ab5f-44ed-adea-c2f1dcce2621 2006-10-04T18:25:14Z 2006-10-04T18:25:14Z

>bringing annoying people here to intentionally try to irritate us. < Did CJ bring you or did you come of your own free will?

Peter 2006-10-04T18:25:14Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#ce2721de-a46d-4691-8618-5b5f45d27ce6 2006-10-04T18:04:29Z 2006-10-04T18:04:29Z

And SRL?

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T18:04:29Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#ef749af5-ab5a-483b-82ac-e8d585c011d2 2006-10-04T18:03:03Z 2006-10-04T18:03:03Z

>So in other words YES, Chicken John did ask you to come here to whine...But I didn't really understand it until I was there and it's pretty obvious from what you say here that you don't. Chicken knows I haven't been to Burning Man. I'm not sure if that was one of the criteriahe used when selecting me for this assignment, but it may have been. What he did tell me (in so many words) was that almost all of the hundreds of posts that were happening here every day were redundant and contributory to a circular dynamic of discourse in which no one would ever really change their minds about anything, and in which problems would be constantly rehashed, rather than approached with new perspectives or with adequate pointedness from existing perspectives. I may not understand Burning Man, but I'm confident that I do understand this tribe, and Chicken's basic reason for inviting me to it. >Where are my assumptions? You're implication that I would complain a lot durintg the job search process, or afterward, is rooted in the assumption that I treat everything else in the way Chicken has directed me to treat this tribe and its topic. The preceding sentence is a conclusion. My conclusions about this tribe are derived from what goes on on this tirbe. Your opinion about me also is, and this assumes that this context is interchangeable with others. >I'm afraid that's dragging down my opinion of both you and Chicken John. You for not even showing the will to be your own person and CJ for bringing annoying people here to intentionally try to irritate us. 1) Chicken John didn't invite me here just to contribute whatever would have been my natural inclination to contribute, which would be NOTHING. It's like a goddam ant farm, except that Chicken has shown me how to make the other ants see me like an ant for some period of time. The second I started reading this tribe, I ceased to be my own person. If I'm bothering to look at this tribe at all, I am doing something I wouldn't do without Chicken encouraging me. That I might also enjoy it is an interesting, but non-essential facet to the phenomenon. 2) In defense of Chicken John, I have seen few people make the rubber hit the road like Chicken John. He probably knows exactly what he's doing. Sometimes nothing gets done unless someone gets irritated in the process. If Chicken knows one thing, he knows that, and that's one thing that people who accomplish a lot less than he does hate about him. At the risk of seeming to speak for Chicken, I imagine he can live with that.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T18:03:03Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6554bf8b-8a20-44f0-a820-99ae1b1c81d5 2006-10-04T17:44:48Z 2006-10-04T17:44:48Z

Post hoc is not a valid argument here. When Jim did Temporal Decomposition in 97(?) there was no Shipyard no Nimby etc, When Michael put Orbit One in the keyhole, there was no Xian. These spaces came to be as a result of their need for space to feed the creeping grandeur thing that afflicts most Playa Artists. The necessary labor required to do large scale works, the community atmosphere of the event, and the BMorg funding scheme that pays only for materials and tickets all require that these artists form a collaborative creative community. That these communities have manifest in permanent physical spaces, is an important consequence of the existance of the event.

Nesdon 2006-10-04T17:44:48Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7db21511-fb7f-4e58-a25b-f18d67682f85 2006-10-04T17:27:58Z 2006-10-04T17:27:58Z

<< I think more what he had in mind must have been for me to act as a perturbing element. It's hard for me to do that without either sticking to the topic I'm assumed to know nothing about, or introducing other things, so that puts me in a pretty weird position. I do my best. >> So in other words YES, Chicken John did ask you to come here to whine. I'm not assuming that you know nothing about the event that would be completely fallacious. You obviously know lots of things about the event but until you've actually experienced it that's all speculation and hearsay. I knew a lot about burning man before I went to, I'd been looking at pictures and reading about it in the paper and magazines and had many friends who had gone. But I didn't really understand it until I was there and it's pretty obvious from what you say here that you don't. << If you make 1/100th of the assumptions about your employees that you make about me, I wouldn't work for you. >> Where are my assumptions? I have an opinion i have developed of you by reading your posts but I don't assume to know what you think or what your real opinions are. << My presence here is a Chicken John production. >> I'm afraid that's dragging down my opinion of both you and Chicken John. You for not even showing the will to be your own person and CJ for bringing annoying people here to intentionally try to irritate us.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-04T17:27:58Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#5e2093ae-5efe-4acc-9509-4b57a8fdab82 2006-10-04T15:12:20Z 2006-10-04T15:12:20Z

>NO QUESTION that this unique phenomena of collective art spaces is a direct result of Burning Man collaborations. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. >no matter what you have heard or read or studied or trolled on tribe, it changes you in a way that is too intangible to yield to the research. Have I ever denied this? >And Josh, get a life, okay? I'm just doing what I can do best at this point. I'm 'following my bliss', so tell it to the tree-huggers.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T15:12:20Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#fc9dc66e-6584-414c-b1db-c222b1248951 2006-10-04T15:09:34Z 2006-10-04T15:09:34Z

>So, Chicken John asked you to come onto this forum to complain about a festival you've never been to? I think more what he had in mind must have been for me to act as a perturbing element. It's hard for me to do that without either sticking to the topic I'm assumed to know nothing about, or introducing other things, so that puts me in a pretty weird position. I do my best. >I don't know but if it's 1/10th of the complaining you do here I wouldn't want to hire you. If you make 1/100th of the assumptions about your employees that you make about me, I wouldn't work for you. >Is he your keeper or something that he has the power to make you shut up? Yes. Absolutely. My presence here is a Chicken John production. >If I had a problem with you I'd take it to you. I imagine Chicken John has more important things to worry about than the fact that you come off as a whiner. That's an excuse? You know that Chicken John and the moderator are the only 2 ways to get rid of me, and yet you're sticking to a formula that it has already been clearly shown will not work. Assuming you're sane, the only conclusion I can then draw is that you like the situation wtih me here basically as it is. >You stated that you found that people were complaining to be encouraging. That's a bleak outlook on life. To think that they wouldn't complain, even if there were something worth complaing about is an even more bleak prospect, and the very sort of thing that would make me less and less interesteding in Burning Man every year. I don't see that the quality of an event like Burning Man can be maintained or improved by creative people simply choosing not to attend once they see things going in a less creative direction. Even if they're not right about it, some kind of discussion is warranted. Those who do not want to have this discussion will call it 'complaining'.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T15:09:34Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#f8de5131-ef3e-40dc-974e-c61f7c76e339 2006-10-04T09:31:57Z 2006-10-04T09:30:40Z

<< Anyway, I'm on this tribe doing what I'm doing because it's what Chicken John invited me here to do. Otherwise, I would have stayed away >> So, Chicken John asked you to come onto this forum to complain about a festival you've never been to? That's an interesting motive indeed. << How much complaining do you think I actually do during the job application process? >> I don't know but if it's 1/10th of the complaining you do here I wouldn't want to hire you. << Has anyone who has a problem with me even bothered to take it to Chicken John? I'll bet SuperDan hasn't. Maybe you haven't asked Chicken John to get me to shut up because you like complaining about me. >> I don't know Chicken John, I've never met him or spoke with him. I have read some of his posts and found a few of them quite profound and the others utterly inane. I read about him in the paper with the raft thing which I thought was pretty cool. Is he your keeper or something that he has the power to make you shut up? << Has anyone who has a problem with me even bothered to take it to Chicken John? >> If I had a problem with you I'd take it to you. I imagine Chicken John has more important things to worry about than the fact that you come off as a whiner. You stated that you found that people were complaining to be encouraging. That's a bleak outlook on life.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-04T09:30:40Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#a188d4fe-8c7d-4585-838b-85b00c00acc0 2006-10-04T02:41:30Z 2006-10-04T02:41:30Z

">a vital infrastructure that would not exist without the BMan collaborations that spawned them. I understand that that is how it is supposed to work, but I have my doubts about how much it actually does work that way. " Shows what you know. NO QUESTION that this unique phenomena of collective art spaces is a direct result of Burning Man collaborations. Whether it is a direct result of Burning Man grant dollars (totaling in the millions at this point) is arguable. JMF is spot on, It really is more like parenthood than any other experience I have had, in that no matter what you have heard or read or studied or trolled on tribe, it changes you in a way that is too intangible to yield to the research. And Josh, get a life, okay?

Nesdon 2006-10-04T02:41:30Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#43c8e367-407a-46cb-878c-d37b71acc97f 2006-10-04T01:25:52Z 2006-10-04T01:25:52Z

I have nothing from which to decompress. Thanks for warning me, anyway.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T01:25:52Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#18bbe8b3-443c-4446-af84-e7763610b92c 2006-10-04T01:23:28Z 2006-10-04T01:23:28Z

>For that matter, maybe the fact that you LIKE complaining is keeping you from getting another job. Wow. Nobody else ever thought of that before. How much complaining do you think I actually do during the job application process? Anyway, I'm on this tribe doing what I'm doing because it's what Chicken John invited me here to do. Otherwise, I would have stayed away. Has anyone who has a problem with me even bothered to take it to Chicken John? I'll bet SuperDan hasn't. Maybe you haven't asked Chicken John to get me to shut up because you like complaining about me. Maybe you like complaining about problems more than you like seeing them solved.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-04T01:23:28Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#419e275e-2b6a-4182-9e56-dd01ad483fc1 2006-10-03T19:44:17Z 2006-10-03T19:44:17Z

<i'm too busy planning decompression, which, like i said, you should all come to. except for josh and david. they wouldn't like it.> Do you mean me, David? I've been to several Decompressions. They're okay. The event takes place in one of my favorite neighborhoods, so that's nice, too. Am I expecting to find religion? No. Am I expecting to find community? No, heck I'm already part of 3 non-overlapping communities, and that's enough for me. Decompression and other events are nice because I get to see new performers whom I can book for future shows.

David 2006-10-03T19:44:17Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#cd0b7660-feba-46c3-ab63-98318979138d 2006-10-03T18:48:02Z 2006-10-03T18:48:02Z

<< But in the scheme of things maybe it's like you complaining about not being able to get another job >> For that matter, maybe the fact that you LIKE complaining is keeping you from getting another job.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-03T18:48:02Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#89b615ea-5994-4b44-a167-d06588577255 2006-10-03T13:01:05Z 2006-10-03T13:01:05Z

>that people complaining about the raves camps is encouraging. < But in the scheme of things maybe it's like you complaining about not being able to get another job. To the small percentage for whom it is an issue, it's a major issue, but for the majority who are not bothered by it, it is a not an issue.

Peter 2006-10-03T13:01:05Z tUkTuK! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#8206ca41-15a5-4fc8-a0e2-96f6d2575392 2006-10-03T04:07:25Z 2006-10-03T04:07:25Z

the last time i went to a rave was 1994 in dallas texas. it was silly, the acid sucked, and the sound system was pretty jacked. i never went to another rave again. now i throw my own events, and try to meld DJs with installation art in a way that makes people wonder at the creative forces inherent in both music production and art-making, and in themselves. i put the term "rave" to bed long ago, as have most people who are involved in the community. in order to understand the creative mix that has evolved from electronic music and art, you might try and think outside the box. yet, this seems to be beyond the ken of some people. so be it. i hope i never meet them. that being said, i don't have time for this discussion and shall now sign off for good. i'm too busy planning decompression, which, like i said, you should all come to. except for josh and david. they wouldn't like it. although we do have acts like marchfourth marching band, solovox, vagabond opera, and other live music, so maybe there would be a couple minutes there when they might finding themslves enjoying it. but then a really good and chewy bassline might come reeling in from the other room and all of a sudden those happy smiles might turn upside down and they'd go home disgruntled. so no, it's better that they not come. otherwise, check it: http://pdxdiversion.org/

tUkTuK! 2006-10-03T04:07:25Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#4f1785c4-da67-47f9-9688-eabbf06c083b 2006-10-03T02:26:49Z 2006-10-03T02:26:49Z

OK. I have become convinced on the 'rave' issue; the 'raves' are not the problem that people have told me they are. I still stand by my statement, though, that people complaining about the raves camps is encouraging. If people saw something they considered to be hurting the event and merely shrugged it off as sad but inevitable, or simply gave up and quit the event, THAT would be discouraging.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-03T02:26:49Z Bartholomew http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#b4ce18bb-ef6f-4d0a-bc43-484a50169179 2006-10-03T02:26:16Z 2006-10-03T02:26:16Z

"To continue calling sound/dance/camps/installations "raves" is the equivalent of calling a Jimi Hendrix concert a "nigger music show". " Um, no. No, it isn't. The one may be an inappropriate mischaracterization, the other is an appalling racist slur. If you truly can't see the difference, I feel sorry for you.

Bartholomew 2006-10-03T02:26:16Z delachaux http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7a7fe6d1-efba-42c0-9012-0c73e959c532 2006-10-03T02:09:08Z 2006-10-03T02:09:08Z

The whole 'rave vs. art' issue has become one of the biggest false dilemmas in itself. And this is something that Jim was wise to point out in his essay. Let me say this again with feeling: THERE IS NO ART VS. RAVE ISSUE. To continue calling sound/dance/camps/installations "raves" is the equivalent of calling a Jimi Hendrix concert a "nigger music show". Sure there are some historically shared roots in their etymology, BUT the very word "rave" is a semantic vestige that has no accurate currency within the context of burning man, UNLESS (like some idiots) you're simply using it as a loaded polemical device to slander a certain phenomena on the playa. If a guy like Jim Mason (with his notorious playa history on this subject) can come to see and appreciate the complexities that exhaust such a trite little dichotomy as "art vs. rave" then it's time that we all can.

delachaux 2006-10-03T02:09:08Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#06e3bb24-89ed-4e8d-8bdd-4ef6dd9b674a 2006-10-03T01:42:38Z 2006-10-03T01:42:38Z

<< This is the first claim I intend to challenge when I arrive. I will get a grid map and check things off. Naturally, some things will come and go while I'm checking something else off, but a week is really a long time for someone as methodical as myself. >> Good luck on that one. Seeing every registered art installation is quite possible for sure if you're methodical and devoted to doing so, especially with an art car. But every piece of performance art, every theme camp and workshop. There's just no way. << David has tended to have some of the most neutral things to say, actually. >> At least on tribe David is the most negative person in relation to "rave camps" that I have seen. Oddly enough he is generally fairly negative and argumentive on tribe but very friendly and cheerful in person. << Sounds fair. How have your own projects gone so far? >> Quite well indeed. In 2004 I was a part of the Garden of Eden and helped with the creation of Eve, a rather lewd painting of the biblical figure who tempted people to eat apples from her crotch. Lots of fun if fairly simple. In 2005 I was a major part of Camp Stimulation which served thousands of cups of free coffee in a wildly successful attempt to put a dent in the Center Camp Hypocracy. We had an amazing cafe space in the 9:00 plaza that everyone loved. We all worked so hard that I hardly had time for anything else that year and I really felt like I missed most of the art. In response I took it fairly easy this year and mostly focused on taking in as much of the art as possible. I did help my friend with his art car so I wasn't a total bum. I'm seeking an art grant for next year to make solar powered animated el wire signs for the playa potties to help people find them at night and hopefully keep them from pissing on the playa.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-03T01:42:38Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9f4f332a-bd1b-4c82-9d14-84065e8b42c0 2006-10-03T00:57:28Z 2006-10-03T00:57:28Z

Josh, talking to you about BM is the same as me trying to tell you about me giving birth to my child.... Somethings you just have to experiance on a first hand basis to understand them..... Good or bad it will change you. J9

J9 JMF 2006-10-03T00:57:28Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#cb068bf2-ffa5-4d9e-bed5-aa03212e7ccb 2006-10-03T00:34:38Z 2006-10-03T00:34:38Z

>Kicking back happens all day long during the heat of the day...... The evening & night is for the party and seeing the art. If you don't like the raves or sound camps, you can camp farther out on the edge of the city and get a better set of ear plugs. Every one has their right to radical self expression. I'm aware that there's some lack of general agreement about whether certain things are a problem, and abotu how much of a problem they are. My point is that the disagreement, itself, is something that tells me the culture of the event is not stagnating.... yet.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-03T00:34:38Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#3e7e86c7-dbc1-49bf-9fcd-bdc57d75eb1e 2006-10-03T00:32:14Z 2006-10-03T00:32:14Z

>They seem to be the same thing to me. I suppose they might be or they might not be. Not having seen what we are talijg about here, specifically, you would be right to say I'm not qualified to distinguish between these two thing on a case-to-case basis. Next time I hear a complaint about the raving, I'll be sure to ask whether it's a complaint about more complex installations or about something else. That a specific complainant mentioned that his project one year was to set up a hardware store, and that no one made use of it because no one was installing anything (because. he said, it was mostly ravers) tells me that something changed from the previous year to that year, and that it wasn't merely that someone was handing out 9/16 wrenches at the gate. >I think it's very difficult to make any accurate assumptions about what other artists like to do with their free time at burning man. I think I'm making less of an ssumption than a conclusion, although I recognize it may be premature. >The popularity of places like the opulent temple suggest that even the artists do like to dance. I absoultely do believe that. >It's a big event, there's so many things to do and see that you could never ever do or see them all in seven days. This is the first claim I intend to challenge when I arrive. I will get a grid map and check things off. Naturally, some things will come and go while I'm checking something else off, but a week is really a long time for someone as methodical as myself. >Really I think the core of your problem is that you detest electronic dance music Not so much. I have made som, in fact. I just haven't much enjoyed the company of people who consume it agressively. The people I've met who make it have been friendly and extremely thoughtful. >and thus you see it as a foul disruptive influence and that anyone who does enjoy it is a "frat boy raver" who is destroying the event. That's a bit extreme. I've met classic frat boys who snap out of frat boy mode as soon as you press the right intellectual button. >Chances are the people who are complaining to you are your friends who feel similarly. (like David) David has tended to have some of the most neutral things to say, actually. >This opinion is not the opinion of the majority of burners. I'm not into the rave scene, I'm there to see art and make and meet people. And the rave camps don't interfere in that in the slightest. Sounds fair. How have your own projects gone so far?

Orangeboxman 2006-10-03T00:32:14Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#fe70c2ae-5ad6-499a-8af4-deabb10797d4 2006-10-02T23:59:00Z 2006-10-02T23:59:00Z

<<I haven't heard complaints specifically about installations that use dance music; only about 'raves'. Perhaps some clarification is in order. >> I think some clarification is in order. What's the difference between an "installation that uses dance music" and a rave. They seem to be the same thing to me. << I understand that people want to be able to 'kick back' after completing their own projects, but wouldn't most people who have completed a big project prefer to see other art and help assure its completion, rather than simply going to raves? >> I think it's very difficult to make any accurate assumptions about what other artists like to do with their free time at burning man. The popularity of places like the opulent temple suggest that even the artists do like to dance. It's a big event, there's so many things to do and see that you could never ever do or see them all in seven days. <<What I have said is that the fact that people have so often complained about them means there's something else going on that they think is much more worthwhile, and, specifically worth protecting from continuous sonic intrusion, and that this encourages me (now, allow me to reframe for better emphasis) to think the event won't turn out to have degenerated into some big frat party when I finally do go. >> Really I think the core of your problem is that you detest electronic dance music and thus you see it as a foul disruptive influence and that anyone who does enjoy it is a "frat boy raver" who is destroying the event. Chances are the people who are complaining to you are your friends who feel similarly. (like David) This opinion is not the opinion of the majority of burners. I'm not into the rave scene, I'm there to see art and make and meet people. And the rave camps don't interfere in that in the slightest. With or without rave camps the entire city is subject to continuous sonic intrusion. Loud flame effects, art cars, generators, marching bands, megaphones and people howling at the sun and moon, the noise of the city is a constant din. If you need quiet wear earplugs, if you need peace try to find it inside yourself.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T23:59:00Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#b4898e18-e271-43fa-9c78-0c358cc67d1d 2006-10-02T23:55:33Z 2006-10-02T23:55:33Z

Kick back means not having to get up at 6:00 am and dig trenches after staying up drinking until the wee hours in the moring. Kicking back happens all day long during the heat of the day...... The evening & night is for the party and seeing the art. If you don't like the raves or sound camps, you can camp farther out on the edge of the city and get a better set of ear plugs. Every one has their right to radical self expression. J9

J9 JMF 2006-10-02T23:55:33Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#c88fe8df-f7cc-4ef3-ae58-686c8d6721a8 2006-10-02T23:33:50Z 2006-10-02T23:33:50Z

>I don't think you can remove one aspect of burning man and think it's going to be as much fun. Its the whole fucking crazy mix that makes it so wonderful. I haven't heard complaints specifically about installations that use dance music; only about 'raves'. Perhaps some clarification is in order. In any case, I have never said, nor would I say that raves should be banned or anything like that. I would have absolutely no business saying that, even if it were true. What I have said is that the fact that people have so often complained about them means there's something else going on that they think is much more worthwhile, and, specifically worth protecting from continuous sonic intrusion, and that this encourages me (now, allow me to reframe for better emphasis) to think the event won't turn out to have degenerated into some big frat party when I finally do go. I understand that people want to be able to 'kick back' after completing their own projects, but wouldn't most people who have completed a big project prefer to see other art and help assure its completion, rather than simply going to raves? I'd ask them, but a lot of them have already given their answer.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T23:33:50Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#3ba336e6-71bf-4a88-a6d2-c804f25053ea 2006-10-02T23:23:51Z 2006-10-02T23:23:51Z

>The statistic I read in the JRS was that there was 30% more registered art this year than last year and that last year had the most registered art ever. Probably the reason why I haven't yet heard any f2f complaints about art vs raves for 2006. The complaining seems to work, so I think they should keep complaining.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T23:23:51Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#ed27c665-b6fc-40f8-8c0e-a832b927f7c7 2006-10-02T23:17:23Z 2006-10-02T23:17:23Z

* whereas other things inhibit art production, and I have become convinced that the raves have a net inhibitory effect Boy, I think you are off base here.. Art and raves go hand in hand. A perfect example of this was a performance in 2004 by “Lost at Last” . They had large screen projections that were created by Alex Grey. The sound camp who hosted them was “The Church of WOW” . Which, I think was also a part of illumination village. The whole camp was decorated in these large crystal formations. The music was amazing, the stage show was amazing. This to me was a prefect intagration of art and music. I was more inspired than I had ever been after seeing Alex Greys work on the Playa. * I also see that Burning Man could still be worth while if people there are able to do large-scale things that then inspire or otherwise better enable them to apply themselves creatively in the outside world. Again, your bit myopic about what happens on and off the playa. All you have to do is travel down into Oakland and Emeryville and see BM influences are everywhere. Many of the artist are taking their sculpture back to where they live and installing them as public art. Others are impacting world of technologies with their work. David Best (temporary temples, SF), Michael Christian (flock, SF) , Kiki Le Peite (a fire Calderon for the winter Olympics in Salt Lake City ) , Flaming Lotus girls (hand of god, is traveling from city to city) Other examples of artist that are not local are; Jen Lewin, Bolder Col. Installation at BM 2005 (Laser Harps) http://www.blueink.com/lasers/index.htm http://nextfest.net/ Or Zachary Coffin, and Cobbett Griffith http://www.corbettgriffith.com/ http://www.zacharycoffin.com/colossus/index.php The best thing about BM for me is how much I learn from other artist that I wouldn’t have access to otherwise. (being that I live in Boise, Idaho) By helping other create their large scale installations you are learning their techniques. It’s a win-win situation. My first year I was able to help Dr Megavolt rewire and install his Tesla Coil that had been damaged during transport. This was one many cool things I have been involved in on the Playa. The best thing about BM for me is how much I learn from other artist that I wouldn’t have access to other wise. (being that I live in Boise, Idaho) By helping other create their large scale installations you are learning their techniques. It’s a win-win situation. My first year I was able to help Dr Megavolt rewire and install his tesla coil that had been damaged during transport. This was one of the coolest things I ever did. Most artist try to have their installations done by mid week, this is so they can go out and let loose for the rest of the burn. I don't think you can remove one aspect of burning man and think it's going to be as much fun. Its the whole fucking crazy mix that makes it so wonderful. J9

J9 JMF 2006-10-02T23:17:23Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#e0b9b7d3-d19d-42c0-b9e8-0f3c12f40627 2006-10-02T23:01:50Z 2006-10-02T23:01:50Z

Interesting. The statistic I read in the JRS was that there was 30% more registered art this year than last year and that last year had the most registered art ever. I think you should stop listening to these other people and come to the event without preconceived notions and expectations and form your own opinions based on your own experiences. But that may not be possible since you are obviously so set in your ways that it's already ruined for you by these other complainers. It's a pity really.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T23:01:50Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2bb21ea6-0a47-4237-bcb6-de5984ba1cfa 2006-10-02T22:48:07Z 2006-10-02T22:48:07Z

>This is purely a factor of you spending too much time on this tribe where the complainers are way more vocal than the happy people. Actually, I'm specifically talking about complaints I have heard from people f2f. I am aware of the enormity of the playa, and of the fact that people go out of their way to be assured everything will be completed in time. I am aware that people SHOULD be able to ignore the rave camps, completely. This is why I was at first so surprised to be hearing that Burning Man is gradually becoming a huge rave, and that people who want to do something other than that are finding it more and more inconvenient. Of course, the complainers could just be complaining for the sake of complaining. This is certainly possible. My original point, though, was the fact that people bother to continue to complain so much tells me that there is still a significant core of people who are focused on the art and consider it important enough that they feel the quality of the event could be threatened by something as seemingly innocuous as raves. That they might be right about everything going to sh** hardly should make me want to go. That they care enough to constantly say so is what makes me see there must ultimately be something of value that is worth protecting, and that was my point.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T22:48:07Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9025d8e3-dc1b-468f-b989-0a4e34cd6eb9 2006-10-02T22:18:23Z 2006-10-02T22:18:23Z

<<Every hour that someone spends raving at Burning Man is an hour of attention taken away from the art projects,>> That's a silly assumption. Most artists spend the their time working on their projects in advance so that they need only spend time to set up once at the event and then are free to do as they please, which often means going out dancing. Not to mention the art that is designed to interact with the music of the big sound theme camps. Some of my favorite pieces have been specifically designed to be sound reactive which wouldn't work without being placed near a "rave." << That the rave music keeps people awake while they're trying to rest for work on their projects the next day is the one thing I keep hearing again and again and again. >> This is purely a factor of you spending too much time on this tribe where the complainers are way more vocal than the happy people. Most of these complainers are upset about people who play their music too loud inside the city not the big sound camps placed at the 10 and 2 streets which are on the edges of the city. It's easy to avoid the noise that comes from the big sound camps, just don't camp near the 10 or 2 roads. I camped on the outer edge of the city this year at 4:10 and G and I never had the slightest problem with anyone elses noise. << Even space has become constrained or limited, at least inasmuch as the art projects are tangent to fewer other art projects with which they can cooperate every time a rave in introduced. >> This really highlights the fact that you have never been to burning man. The playa is a HUGE place where there is plenty of room for every piece of art and every rave camp that is brought. << whereas other things inhibit art production, and I have become convinced that the raves have a net inhibitory effect >> How could you possible know if that is true if you've never even been to the event? Maybe you shouldn't bother going at all since you're obviously going to let your preconceived notions ruin it for you before you arrive. << Because you can't get away with holding thousands of people as a captive audience anywhere else. >> Who's a captive audience? I have no problem staying away from the raves since they don't interest me.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T22:18:23Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#4360482d-d04c-42f1-b552-8efb5d9dba2a 2006-10-02T21:47:09Z 2006-10-02T21:47:09Z

> I don't really understand how you came about that opinion. It's not the money that's the issue. I have never heard anyone complain that they think their project didn't get funded because of a rave. The issue is that there is a finite amount of time, tickets, attention and energy to go around. Every hour that someone spends raving at Burning Man is an hour of attention taken away from the art projects, and possibly more than that if t means art laborers are also distracted or unable to rest due to the noise. That the rave music keeps people awake while they're trying to rest for work on their projects the next day is the one thing I keep hearing again and again and again. Even space has become constrained or limited, at least inasmuch as the art projects are tangent to fewer other art projects with which they can cooperate every time a rave in introduced. It's understandable that for practical purposes, the art can't happen unless some other things are happening, too, but things like food and medicine facilitate the art, whereas other things inhibit art production, and I have become convinced that the raves have a net inhibitory effect. As for the rave music being art, fine. Speaking as a Music Theory M.A., I consider this entirely plausible. But why not do it somewhere else? Because you can't get away with holding thousands of people as a captive audience anywhere else. That's why.... isn't it?

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T21:47:09Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#bee82899-ae61-4b4a-a164-7c0b03b9d733 2006-10-02T21:20:11Z 2006-10-02T21:20:11Z

<< MORE RAVING = LESS ART >> That's an interesting statement. I don't really understand how you came about that opinion. Rave camps are all self funded so they arn't drawing away grant money from the artists. The big sound camps are often beautifully constructed sets that in themselves are quite artistic. People who participate in rave camps also make much of the art that is placed on the playa. There's also an implied opinion that "rave" music is not in itself art which is a quite narrow minded view.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T21:20:11Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d455829a-e197-4e1b-99ba-0cab202567b9 2006-10-02T21:08:08Z 2006-10-02T21:08:08Z

>As it is you're belittling something you obviously don't truly understand. I understand this much: MORE RAVING = LESS ART

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T21:08:08Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#24f6ab4d-749c-4cff-9119-3b7790586e35 2006-10-02T19:37:52Z 2006-10-02T19:37:52Z

<< As someone who admittedly does almost no art, myself, I hate to think that my absence from Burning Man is some kind of explanation for it, and I also hate to think that when I go, I'll have to choose between going to raves, reading a book, and standing around trying to make myself useful to people who have already got their shit together and basically need to be left alone. >> Maybe you should stop thinking about it altogether. I'm afraid that the mental picture that you have built up of the event by looking at pictures and listening to people bitch about it on the internet doesn't actually resemble the event at all. You should try to rid yourself of all these preconceived prejudices and just go actually experience it for yourself. As it is you're belittling something you obviously don't truly understand.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T19:37:52Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#0cbd4bc2-d491-4032-83f7-e4aa4427dd2a 2006-10-02T19:23:48Z 2006-10-02T19:23:48Z

>a vital infrastructure that would not exist without the BMan collaborations that spawned them. I understand that that is how it is supposed to work, but I have my doubts about how much it actually does work that way. The SF area wasn't exactly a cultural void before Burning Man, and these people would be bound to meet eventually in any case. Everybody seems to know everybody here. Has Burning Man facilitated in their cases? I think so. But people also win the lottery and even a stopped clock is right twice a day. As someone who admittedly does almost no art, myself, I hate to think that my absence from Burning Man is some kind of explanation for it, and I also hate to think that when I go, I'll have to choose between going to raves, reading a book, and standing around trying to make myself useful to people who have already got their shit together and basically need to be left alone. If the original formula was that anyone who showed up should be willing to do some kind of work, I would certainly be down with that. It's pretty clear to me, though, that that's no longer the case. I suppose that if the effect of the rave camps in encouraging drug abuse and sleep deprivation is offset by their utility as areas of containment for people who would otherwise end up cutting off other people's thumbs, maybe they're not such a bad idea.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T19:23:48Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#f2804564-f63b-40a2-8c61-54063a0a685e 2006-10-02T18:42:00Z 2006-10-02T18:42:00Z

"... I also see that Burning Man could still be worthwhile if people there are able to do large-scale things that then inspire or otherwise better enable them to apply themselves creatively in the outside world." You say you live in SF. Look at the art communtiy there and how deeply it has co elvoleved with B Man, go visit the BoxShop, Nimby and the Shipyard, among other slightly less collective studios like Xian and the shops of SRL and Dan and Karen. These are year round facilites that make lots of stuff that is not specifically playa bound, and that form a vital infrastructure that would not exist without the BMan collaborations that spawned them. Here in LA, back in NYC, while we have much larger art communities, we have nothing to match these relatively open, realtively public studios.

Nesdon 2006-10-02T18:42:00Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#0a764b63-64b4-45d4-94b6-822b56d42a13 2006-10-02T17:45:29Z 2006-10-02T17:45:29Z

>that so many people who have never been to burning man feel the need to pipe up in these discussions makes me glad i chose to actually see it for myself My core complaint about Burning Man is not about what goes on there, but about the affect I think it has on the arts during the rest of the year, in terms of sucking a lot of creative energy out of everywhere else. That said, I also see that Burning Man could still be worthwhile if people there are able to do large-scale things that then inspire or otherwise better enable them to apply themselves creatively in the outside world. Assuming this is true, then the whole event would have to be conceived as a way of ultimately supporting the development of creative efforts applicable elsewhere, such as ways to challenge the assumption that big things can only be done fruitfully at Burning Man. Moreover: for that to be true, the art has to AT LEAST be possibel AT Burning Man. The reason I love to hear people complain about the rave camps is that it tells me there's still some recognition that people don't want their ability to function artistically to be interfered with by noise and by the milling about of people who don't want to get their hands dirty; people whose personal 'experience' is more important than what is actually being done, and who can have an equally intense experience elsewhere simply through the better application of creative pharmacology. The raves, people can do practically anywhere else; cheaper and with less planning. Not so with all the art, and anyone who has seen even a few pictures can see that. I stopped wanting to go to Burning Man even before I really had the opportunity, because the more and more people told me about it each year, the less and less it seemed to have to do with the one thing you can't easily do anywhere else, and which would therefore seem to be the point of the thing: THE ART. That interference with the art aspect by a bunch of noisy posers has become such a huge complaint tells me that there is still a commitment to the art, and that people will still push to assure that it's at least partly about the art (so far, at least). > there are other ways to connect on the dance floor, however, that are just as deep and decidedly non-verbal. Please, don't let's conflate 'intense' with 'profound', eh? Some people have a 'deep connection' with the aliens who have implanted them with transmitters. Whatever. I assume you got laid and that's great.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T17:45:29Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#921e86d2-45d4-454f-9550-ea1a5f952641 2006-10-02T08:18:00Z 2006-10-02T08:18:00Z

<That so many Burners still hate the rave camps is one thing that gives me hope I might actually enjoy Burning Man.> Well, I hate them and you enjoy me, so I think you'd enjoy at least *some* of Burning Man. I don't mind it if people play that godawful rave music, as long as there are people enjoying it, dancing to it, etc. But what I hate is when someone just starts blasting it and there's nobody around, not even a DJ. But there are quieter areas where there are no rave stuff going on.

David 2006-10-02T08:18:00Z tUkTuK! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9bfda8a1-0eaa-4e6c-928f-432666b9ceee 2006-10-02T03:47:47Z 2006-10-02T03:47:47Z

that so many people who have never been to burning man feel the need to pipe up in these discussions makes me glad i chose to actually see it for myself years ago instead of reading a really long thread to the end and wondering what the fuck it would be like and forming expectations. and no, the dance floor is not the place for deep conversations. walk fifty feet in any direction, though, and the chat is on. there are other ways to connect on the dance floor, however, that are just as deep and decidedly non-verbal. but, should the urge bite you, you should all come up for portland decompression, where i've decided not to turn the volume knobs up to 11 in order to foment conversation among burners and non-burners alike about things that matter. like greening the man. like funding for art. like really good music. check it: http://portland.tribe.net/tribe/servlet/template/pub%2CEvent.vm?eventid=1bdb666e-58a7-44ea-8b82-9c1216af8707&published=true&nextpage=http%3A%2F%2Fportland.tribe.net%2Flocal

tUkTuK! 2006-10-02T03:47:47Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#f4553561-bd6c-4736-b46a-9f02a5562ec6 2006-10-02T02:55:08Z 2006-10-02T02:55:08Z

I don't hate the rave camps but I don't frequent them. More than anything else I'm at burning man to meet people, make connections and have great conversations and you can't do that on a dance floor.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-10-02T02:55:08Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#32066eab-aeff-490e-918b-760b94537a78 2006-10-02T01:40:09Z 2006-10-02T01:40:09Z

That so many Burners still hate the rave camps is one thing that gives me hope I might actually enjoy Burning Man.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T01:40:09Z tUkTuK! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#fbdea130-f36d-42bd-b37b-4d8df4940b72 2006-10-02T01:36:31Z 2006-10-02T01:36:31Z

well, for starters, rave camps are more than just rave camps. many of them are influencing burner fashion, music, and aesthetics in a very real way, just like art installations do: one participant at a time. if you don't dance, or your friends don't dance, or you hate electronic music, please just stop reading now so we can avoid arguing about this ad mauseum. my point, however, is that unlike art installations, the borg gives no money or support to sound camps. which is fine, and has worked thus far (sort of). but i do know that for some of my friends, who have contributed to the playa vibe with camps like el circo, disorient, lush, opulent temple, false prophet, and roots, hundreds of thousands of dollars (perhaps millions) have been funneled into the playa over the years as a gift to the community. now, if you don't like electronic music, the word "gift" will raise hackles. but many people will disagree with you, as some of these camps have changed people's lives on the dance floor. i count myself among that number. and many others do, as well. and while one or two people (or perhaps a dozen) might be inspired by a single piece of art to the point that they cause a lifestyle change (please don't respond with crys of "uchronia" or "the temple" because those are exceptions), i can assure you that the bang/buck ratio is much higher when a person dances all night surrounded by people who they might not know but will come morning. they hear music that inspires them, they meet people who have like tastes, some are even challenged to overcome their fear of rejection and move to the music. and having spent the last few years surrounded by a burner commnity year-round at music festivals, parties, traveling and whatnot, i can say that personally it all comes down to the melding of music and art on the playa, and the vibe one gets when the beat drops and you find you are suddenly surrounded by people you love. it leads to reinterpretations of one's prerogatives, and is thus an engine for change and sustainability. why is it that camps like entheon couple the art of alex grey with psytrance, or the fashion of el circo with breakbeats? because they are one and the same, coming from a similar source, and will lead people to new places together. they are engines for change, and challenge DJs, dancers, artists, camp builders, etc. to take it to the next level next year so that that change can be ever more effected.

tUkTuK! 2006-10-02T01:36:31Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#60af139a-fedb-4c44-9410-98a6edc3a4d1 2006-10-02T00:23:43Z 2006-10-02T00:23:43Z

I was going to go with something more like 'The Wicker Wanker'

Orangeboxman 2006-10-02T00:23:43Z Rockstar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6764913b-e6c7-4428-9b8c-3366686a9cd5 2006-10-01T01:36:36Z 2006-10-01T01:36:36Z

*heh* You could go all Tom Stoppard and call it "Rosenkrantz & Guildenstern are Burned"

Rockstar 2006-10-01T01:36:36Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#08e65081-9c72-4df4-b1c5-94e9e6de5e96 2006-10-01T00:40:02Z 2006-10-01T00:40:02Z

> "Against," as in BM is not about a collective failure of will and imagination. But the act of trying to document it probably would be. My film will 'fail better', as Beckett would say.

Orangeboxman 2006-10-01T00:40:02Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#51d9bdaa-0ff8-4bdf-b147-0661b13643c7 2006-09-30T18:32:51Z 2006-09-30T18:32:51Z

I'd vote to kill the BRC starbucks. I think it woefully lame to sell coffee. I agree that it undermines the ethos badly.

Nesdon 2006-09-30T18:32:51Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6a798913-ed52-4046-a324-f0cc3939f933 2006-09-30T17:05:56Z 2006-09-30T17:05:56Z

> Have you ever formed a non-profit corporation? Yes. Have you? Given how little knowledge your post demonstrates about how profits and non-profits work, I'm thinking not. > Burning Man is not broken That's a matter of opinion and perspective, and yours just happens to be wrong. As for your "advice", thanks, but no thanks. I'm perfectly happy to continue my Quixote struggle to fix what we've already created.

johnnie 2006-09-30T17:05:56Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#e837a89d-5783-48e3-980a-e6817b628310 2006-09-30T16:49:30Z 2006-09-30T16:49:30Z

> There is no need for you to patronize it at all. And I don't. In fact, I think the last time I went inside the Cafe was 2002. Someone was trying to sing and it sounded like they were trying to slowly choke a protesting chicken to death. My point is that Center Camp Cafe is completely and utterly antithetical to the ethos of Burning Man. Brew your own damn coffee. And let's use one of the the premier locations in the city for something that doesn't crap all one of the founding tenets of event. Otherwise we might as well just open up a street for T-Shirt shops for all the freakn' tourists and other for beer vending. I mean, if you can have your paint peeling coffee, why can't I get an ice cold beer for $6? But I digress.

johnnie 2006-09-30T16:49:30Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2472bd32-6dc6-46fd-8fa4-a405ee7229f3 2006-09-30T16:43:52Z 2006-09-30T16:43:52Z

Democracy is not some uniform monolitic structure. There are so many ways to concieve of it. Look at stifling repressive monarchies like Egypt or Jordan that still have relevant local elections. Look at the General assembly /Security council structure of the UN. Jims point was that the BRC is a remarkably collective entitiy, and therefore, yes it is in many way very democratic. But there is man behind the curtain, and he is making small decisions, that in the nature non-linear dynamics, are being manifest in grand ways in the nature and structure of the City. More and more, many of those decisons are made based on pissy little internal or shitty big external politics. Some of the magic of the city has been that most of those decisions have been made from an experiemental and artistic stance that keeps trying to grok the meaning of the thing, adapting and remanifesting itself. I say Huzahh for the leaders we have had. Jim's other observation that the evolution of BRC and the internet have been suspiciously parrallel, suggest that just like the crapification of ebay, the spamification of email, the pornification of the www, and the corporification of AOL, MYspace and other virtual spaces, there is risk. But we do still have these tools that allow us to interact collectively, and to develop democratic structures that can enhance the collective power of our interactions. I learned a lot from the B2 experiment, and as feeble as it is, I am learning more from the Big Art Election. I just really hope that the What the Bleep BS that wants to allow no criticism fails completely, and that we continue to really wrestle together to make this amazing experiment of City as Art thrive and continue. And I have been working in motion picture for decades as did my mom and dad. I can assure you the logistical challenge the LLC meets, is no big deal, I know a hundred line producers who could set in up in a week or two. We blow up way bigger shit, and deal with way more complex problems all the time. And BTW, I have known Jim for a while now, and he has never been among the "It was better last year" crowd, even if he is of their generation. He has always been in love with the thing, and more than anyone, he taught me to love it too. Anyone who cannot talk to their lover to negotiate for change, will not have that lover long.

Nesdon 2006-09-30T16:43:52Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#0ab3524a-c3f2-4e63-b2b6-b074abaf4a6f 2006-09-30T15:27:52Z 2006-09-30T15:27:52Z

this e-board may be the visibility of democratic stirrings the LLC look at...

cowboyangel 2006-09-30T15:27:52Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#0c17a517-6bf0-419d-abb6-51da30653b6c 2006-09-30T11:11:28Z 2006-09-30T11:11:28Z

<< I do have a *lot* of sympathy for the people of Iraq (and soon Iran) who will get killed through no fault of their own, in wars they never asked for, just because they happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time. >> I can't agree more. The worst part is, they will continue to suffer for it for many generations beyond this conflict because we've spread thousands of tons of depleted uranium over their home and it will never be cleaned up again. The cradle of civilization has been irreparably poisoned.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-09-30T11:11:28Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#4639e8a0-bb5e-4cec-a809-89b5b3296279 2006-09-30T11:06:53Z 2006-09-30T11:06:53Z

<Using taxpayer money to stuff your big business buddies pockets while sending poor kids off to die based on a lie is something completely different.> It's not poor kids going off to die; it's middle class kids going off to die, and mostly white kids, too. And nobody is forcing them to do it. I'm not sure why they thought that signing up for the military would mean that they'd never end up in places like Iraq. I have little sympathy for people who enlist. I do have a *lot* of sympathy for the people of Iraq (and soon Iran) who will get killed through no fault of their own, in wars they never asked for, just because they happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

David 2006-09-30T11:06:53Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#da0f514f-75a4-4f31-b3e7-16b14283b9cf 2006-09-30T11:01:34Z 2006-09-30T11:01:34Z

<I'm a business owner and I'll state right here that the first kid to give me some raft of union crap is out the door on his ass.> I have been both a business owner AND a union organizer. Businesses: Telephone call center, restaurant and bar, ad agency, moving company, private mailbox rental service. Unionism: United Food & Commercial Workers Local 870, Teamsters Local 853 (Warehousemans' union), and an attempt to organize the warehouse workers at Williams Sonoma in Emeryville when they had a warehouse there. My contention is this: Unions should be unnecessary, and a good business owner has nothing to fear of them. Back when I was in the call center business (Pacific Answering), the SEIU was trying to organize telephone operators at various services. They approached my staff. A couple of them were interested in the union and talked about it quietly. I brought up the issue at a meeting and told them, hey look, if you're interested in a union, please realize that I already pay you folks better than the union contract, and i give you a health plan, which isn't even in the union contract. Plus, if you organize you will immediately go on a seniority system where your pay and benefits will be determined solely on your seniority, not on the quality of job you do. If we go union, I will reduce the pay and benefits to meet the union contract. Unions should not be necessary, but many business owners fuck around with their employees way too much, and these owners are really begging to be unionized. My contention as an employer is this: it is far easier to find good customers than to find good workers. So, when you find good workers, treat them WELL. If you treat them well you'll never have anything to fear from unions.

David 2006-09-30T11:01:34Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#3cfae2b6-c954-4556-9d3e-f2b0fe72072e 2006-09-30T10:59:29Z 2006-09-30T10:59:29Z

<< I'm a business owner and I'll state right here that the first kid to give me some raft of union crap is out the door on his ass. >> That's great. Hopefully it'll be me so I can slap you with an unfair labor practices suit so hard it'll make your ass bleed.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-09-30T10:59:29Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#1398fb87-700b-4905-aeca-84eaf9de7fd4 2006-09-30T10:56:35Z 2006-09-30T10:56:35Z

<< So, one can look at the war against Iraq as a phenomenal waste of money, or one can look at it as a federal make-work program not unlike the Works Progress Administration the Roosevelt administration ran during the Depression. It's all in how you look at it. >> I don't think that's a good comparison at all David. The WPA was focused internally on employing Americans and putting them to work on projects that directly improved their own communities. The WPA gave poor people who would otherwise become homeless a job during hard times and made a lasting change at home. Using taxpayer money to stuff your big business buddies pockets while sending poor kids off to die based on a lie is something completely different. Sure some of the employees who work for those companies are doing well for themselves and a little of it might be trickling down to your contractor friend. But the World War Three isn't doing anything to help our communities here at home.

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-09-30T10:56:35Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9c592070-31d9-4cc3-9399-62c7a1fbbc15 2006-09-30T10:51:21Z 2006-09-30T10:51:21Z

<I despise Center Camp Cafe. I think it one of the most retard parts of Burning Man to have have the world's biggest, stinkiest Starbuck's located in smack dab what is argueably the second most important lccation in Black Rock CIty. What I am suppose to do, fire bomb it? > You ignore it. It's a big playa out there. There is no need for you to patronize it at all.

David 2006-09-30T10:51:21Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#dbd27873-32a0-4e14-a0cb-df11161f5953 2006-09-30T10:49:28Z 2006-09-30T10:49:28Z

<It is pretty clear that you really have no idea how a non-profit is setup or how it works. > I am co-founder of the Pacific Center for Human Growth in Berkeley, a counseling agency and community center, where I served as their first media director. I have co-founded two other non-profits (both defunct), and have also formed for-profit corporations in both California and Oregon. I think I know my way around profits and non-profits.

David 2006-09-30T10:49:28Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#026ba5e4-a07a-49c1-9ea1-ba5befc942ed 2006-09-30T10:41:30Z 2006-09-30T10:41:30Z

<It is a for profit business. I argue that the Burning Man community would be far better served if the controlling interest was a non-profit with an elected board. > Why is that? Have you ever formed a non-profit corporation? I have. It is not the panacea you think it is. Running a non-profit is tough. Burning Man is not broken, so there is no need to fix it. As I said before, when the money is flowing, everything is just fine. But let's say that suddenly next year the attendance drops off (as many people thought it would this year). What happens if the projections are all wrong and LLC loses money? Well, if there's a reserve fund, it comes out of that. If not, Larry Harvey and Michael Mikel and company eat it. You can bet they plan carefully so that they don't have to bail the thing out. But if Burning Man were a non-profit and loses money, if they don't have a reserve fund (non-profits can not have much of a cushion, most of the "profit" above expenses has to be put back into its mission -- that's the law) then suddenly BM would have to have massive fundraisers or go out of existence. My advice is that if you want a democracy, create your own democracy and your own version of Burning Man from scratch. Pardon my libertarianism here, but.....

David 2006-09-30T10:41:30Z Rockstar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#bbfb3039-fe97-4cda-b687-784612c70fec 2006-09-30T09:23:18Z 2006-09-30T09:21:43Z

"Against," as in BM is not about a collective failure of will and imagination. "You'd be documenting the impossibility of what people are trying to do by actually showing them failing to do it and talking about it in front of the camera. It would be kind of like 'Adaptation', only more like 'Non-Adapatation'. " Or it could be like some old AIP Beach Party movie that got no nearer the surf than a soundstage on Vine St. If you pitch it that way to Sid and Harvey, you might have a better shot! Sort of the Roger Corman version of Burning Man.

Rockstar 2006-09-30T09:21:43Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#36b3aa9d-c808-4566-97ed-8efc0dcac39d 2006-09-30T04:41:36Z 2006-09-30T04:41:36Z

>Which would be a movie about the failure of imagination and would go completely against it's ostensible subject! >A major studio might fund a hallucination, but I'd like to sit in on a pitch meeting for the movie you're talking about! Get me a meeting and I'll do the pitch. If I'm not cynical enough to make this anti-shockumentary sound like the self-congratulatory inside-hipster feelgood trainwreck of the year, no one can. This is the film that will top the Keanu Reeves remake of Taxi Driver by leaving Roger Ebert's face in a permanent wince for the rest of his life. BTW: Please explain what you mean by 'against'.

Orangeboxman 2006-09-30T04:41:36Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#3877f698-cc61-428d-9542-b6f2d9dfdf3c 2006-09-30T04:37:37Z 2006-09-30T04:37:37Z

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Nope. You don't get to play that card in an experimental art festival. There is a lot of ground to cover to make sure that the people involved in the discussion understand some basic history and archiology... then you can make a point and that leads to another point and another desciion... it's endless. But one thing is for sure: Larry Harvey is our ambassador. He is our leader. We suffer if he looks like a schmoe... we stall if he falters... we get to continue to struggle if he wins. The Buddha teaches us to "go with the teacher you have". If you amend it slightly, you end up with "go with the leader you have". This is the arts festival we have. Larry is the leader we have. This is the communication tool we have. So. So we talk. We process. Somebody drops a bomb on occasion and we all comment and see what happens. But somethign changed. We are in so deep that you need to read 50 metric tons of backstory to understand what happened when adn why and how that came to be and why and so on.... So it's hard to make a point without setting up 20 other points to remind people how we got to this point and so and. It's complex. It's a complex topic. We are complex people. It's not as easy as "Larry's squandering our legacy" or "The LLC is made up of a bunch of unqualified idiots." Flip the coin and it's not as easy as "BM changed my life." or "Rave camps have made the biggest contribution." It's just not that simple. No one, not me nor Jim nor anyone is attacking the LLC... especially Larry. We are making considerations because really the actual descions are made across multipule fronts incrementally... this is, in fact, voting. We excite ideas and get people talking and then when other people are excited then Larry (slowly) picks up the slack. Always has. So we come to a point where we are exausted. My thread "What was missing from BM this year" was an essay that basicly turned into a piece of writing that needs to be edited. and I need to sit on it for a while before I can send it out. But I (I don't know about Jim, let him speak for himself) can be better served by the experimental arts festival that is run in an experimental way... not just in a way that embraces good business... not that the 2 are mutually exclusive. What we are talking about, always and forever, is the need to be a great thing that attracts great people to do great things that in effect turn everyone around them into great people who now can do great things... get that momentium going and THEN lets see what happens...

Chicken 2006-09-30T04:37:37Z Rockstar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6cf592ad-e092-47d3-836d-3fba422d7573 2006-09-30T04:24:35Z 2006-09-30T04:24:35Z

"actually showing them failing to do it and talking about it in front of the camera. It would be kind of like 'Adaptation', only more like 'Non-Adapatation'." Which would be a movie about the failure of imagination and would go completely against it's ostensible subject! A major studio might fund a hallucination, but I'd like to sit in on a pitch meeting for the movie you're talking about!

Rockstar 2006-09-30T04:24:35Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#200a8bae-a13f-417a-b7e7-3ffa7bfe7166 2006-09-30T03:54:44Z 2006-09-30T03:54:44Z

<<To go completely on a tangent with you: Labor unions don't fail because they're merely WRONG. Labor unionism is failing because...well, shit...because they aren't RELEVANT! Look, Unionism is about as opposite an urge to BRC as you can imagine.>> Not relevant? to whom? Business owners? You obviously haven't heard of the Calif Teacher's Union, SEIU and the various trade unions in the state. You're a business owner! I wouldn't expect you to support unions, but irrelavant? ya, to you. Also, if you read my post instead of getting irate about unions, you'd see that I was talking about 'democracy' and the failure of democracy to take hold within union structures. Tell me what is fundamentally wrong with workers organizing to promote fair treatment and their rights? To oppose that my friend is...well un-American.... Turn Savage off and give Air America a listen.

cowboyangel 2006-09-30T03:54:44Z Bartholomew http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#a278abab-e984-4a4d-a761-d1960e1ddfef 2006-09-30T02:32:13Z 2006-09-30T02:32:13Z

Um, huh? I'm glad you enjoy the rave camps, I know plenty do, but how do you justify a statement like "they have been the largest $$ and creative engines on the playa for years, and it'd be nice if they finally received some official recognition. "? I really don't care how much they cost, as long as they are paid for by the folks who run them, but how do you decide they are the largest creative engine? Just wondering, Bartholomew

Bartholomew 2006-09-30T02:32:13Z Delicious Clint: http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9c893d55-3663-4ccf-aeb1-81d86fef96b2 2006-09-30T02:20:18Z 2006-09-30T02:20:18Z

To go completely on a tangent with you: Labor unions don't fail because they're merely WRONG. Labor unionism is failing because...well, shit...because they aren't RELEVANT! Look, Unionism is about as opposite an urge to BRC as you can imagine. Individualism, creation, imagination....none of those things seem present in Unionism. I'm a business owner and I'll state right here that the first kid to give me some raft of union crap is out the door on his ass. I built what I own and I'll help every single person I meet who is ready to build something of their own but anyone walking through my door with lines about "group effort" and "collectivism" gets a swift kick in the nuts and a beating around the ears for stupidity. Shit, am I that grumpy today? Whatever.....bring it on!

Delicious Clint: 2006-09-30T02:20:18Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#726e1b11-3f50-4fc4-8d06-a869e50a43b2 2006-09-30T01:52:26Z 2006-09-30T01:52:26Z

>Yes. And a bunch of other epic movies you could name. I've seen films being made and have been inside soundstages. The very collective nature of the whole enterprise would blow a movie director's brains out his viewfinder. Maybe you could make a movie about people trying to document Burning Man, but never actually show any footage that clearly places them at the site. It would be sort of unclear whether, or how much of the footage was simply shot somewhere else, at some other time, even though it would all be shot on-site in tents and trailers and such. You'd be documenting the impossibility of what people are trying to do by actually showing them failing to do it and talking about it in front of the camera. It would be kind of like 'Adaptation', only more like 'Non-Adapatation'.

Orangeboxman 2006-09-30T01:52:26Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#46264eb3-9fa0-41a6-beb8-5c8fbc1a715f 2006-09-30T01:46:22Z 2006-09-30T01:46:22Z

>I like to think of BM as a pirate utopia. 'This year's burn is brought to you by the letter R.'

Orangeboxman 2006-09-30T01:46:22Z Orangeboxman http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#c05353a2-cb09-4bf7-a7ba-b56ebd5625bb 2006-09-30T01:45:00Z 2006-09-30T01:45:00Z

>everything else is already decided by the participants... I just totally shot juice out my nose reading that.

Orangeboxman 2006-09-30T01:45:00Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#97504975-02e6-4eb6-9f0b-cb4e5707a9f5 2006-09-30T01:22:50Z 2006-09-30T01:22:50Z

<<I always thought that Jim and Chicken's BORG2 movement targeted the wrong place to inflict democracy on Burning Man What needs to happen for the event to continue to evolve is for Burning Man to morph from a benevolent dictatorship (which isn't always so benevolent) into a fully functional, participatory democracy (or I guess republic is a more accurate term) non-profit. Where the leadership has to be elected from time to time, and is thus held accountable at some level. Much like the Sierra Club, but for freaks and not tree huggers (which isn't to say that there is anything wrong with tree hugging or freaks or tree hugging freaks). This would also bring some sorely needed fresh blood and new ideas to the top of the organization.>>> I think there's a corrolary even slight, to the movement to establish democracy in US labor unions. The Unions are failing not only because of the onslaught of contaminated Republican anti-labor nail by nail death policies, but by the lack of real democratic governance in the unions themselves. Democracy is risky because it means terminal things to entrenched leaderships, wether they be ideological or personality based. Rule from the top down is always doomed to failure. democratic egalitarianism is empowering to the people who support the structure. If they are left out of the process for too long, and the organization slides into personality leadership, it will eventually fail. So I agree we have an interesting opportunity to enable democratic governance here. Radio station KPFA is still struggling with this process as it continues to elevate the influence and might of a few entrenched programmers at the expense of other voices, important to the community, like the labor council. Democracy, functioning reasonanably well, invites new thought, new ideas and fresh approaches. Is Burningman getting stale? You bet. And why? see the above.

cowboyangel 2006-09-30T01:22:50Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#bfc15b72-0259-4de4-bb0e-851bb4e69697 2006-09-29T22:54:32Z 2006-09-29T22:54:32Z

Here Here... old and new I can not tell you how many times I have heard this was the best burn, or best in forever or any combination there of... if It aint broke don't fix it...

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-29T22:54:32Z tUkTuK! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#83b19e0e-0dab-4205-b5cf-d84e85cbb2ba 2006-09-29T22:45:28Z 2006-09-29T22:45:28Z

seems to me that a veil of hubris and self-absorption just got swept away for a moment by a sea change in the scale of the event. that, or mr. mason just realized he's part of an elder generation whose heehawing and humbugging has ceased, for the most part, to matter. where there's a perceived void, the BM community rushes in to fill it. sometimes it slops over the sides with enthusiasm and a bit of it lands in your lap, and you realize it's time to take those crusty, old, shiny-assed pants of "it was better when" to the laundromat. that being said, i'm glad "rave camps" got some props from an elder statesman. they have been the largest $$ and creative engines on the playa for years, and it'd be nice if they finally received some official recognition. course, since it's not broke i'd hate to see bmorg try and fix it.

tUkTuK! 2006-09-29T22:45:28Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#aa2f90e3-5b8d-4570-a008-90c9a76059af 2006-09-29T22:27:09Z 2006-09-29T22:27:09Z

>If there is something about the event you don't like then change it, if it is too big for one individual to >change then build a network and change it. the org. gives us roads/ a center camp/ and a blank slate... the rest is up to us. I despise Center Camp Cafe. I think it one of the most retard parts of Burning Man to have have the world's biggest, stinkiest Starbuck's located in smack dab what is argueably the second most important lccation in Black Rock CIty. What I am suppose to do, fire bomb it? Why can't I vote a slate of board members that run on a platform to shut down Center Camp Cafe? Or run for the board myself - not that I'd ever join that loony bin. There is nothing that an elected board could due that the current board does. Not a single thing. But as they are elected they can be held accountable by the membership. Why do you hate democracy so much...are you a Republican?

johnnie 2006-09-29T22:27:09Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#a1746a99-aeba-46d6-8d8d-dae5496cc60a 2006-09-29T22:15:33Z 2006-09-29T22:15:33Z

>Why is that? Burning Man is a business. It is a for profit business. I argue that the Burning Man community would be far better served if the controlling interest was a non-profit with an elected board. >Have you always owned your own home? If not, you were part of a business. You missed the point. My place of residence has always been located in a democracy call the United States. I get to vote who's on the city council, the country board, plus numerous state and federal offices. Hell, from time to time, I even get to vote for a judge or two. At Burning Man, the only real way I can vote is to excise my option not to purchase a ticket. > Democracy is a very poor way to run most institutions. The Lusty Lady adult theatre in SF is a perfect example. It is pretty clear that you really have no idea how a non-profit is setup or how it works.

johnnie 2006-09-29T22:15:33Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#5a6e0327-c2ea-43cd-aab8-5236ba85c5a2 2006-09-29T20:36:14Z 2006-09-29T20:36:14Z

My point is the exact opposite of your direction. the "orginization" as it stands may not make the best desicions or they may, the point is that they are there to serve one function for us, to make sure we have a home to go to... that is all they really do, everything else is already decided by the participants... If they try and control it more, then the event is ruined and it is over, for us all. If they hand it over to us in my mind the event is over for all of us to. we need them, the non democratic political party to continue securing us the land, and the right to build our city... they are almost like the lawyers... they surve a pourpose that is it. then we cast our democratic vote for what we want that city to be. they have no real control over that, and they never will unless we bend over and take it in true american fashion. If there is something about the event you don't like then change it, if it is too big for one individual to change then build a network and change it. the org. gives us roads/ a center camp/ and a blank slate... the rest is up to us. and that is exactly how it should be

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-29T20:36:14Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d97b8a82-3793-4cbb-a4ef-f5a64b63822e 2006-09-29T20:19:48Z 2006-09-29T20:19:48Z

"don't get me wrong I understand where you are going with this, but I think a larger view must be seen if black rock is to have any effect on today's society... but that is a different thread for sure!" NO IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is what we are talking about, always and only. We use device after device to allow people to find their own way to get to the same meat of the same matter. Welcome... this debate is infinatly interesting and no matter what anyone says it's totally working. We don't really have an agenda per say... but the Kool Aide seems weaker then in past years... We would all like to see some form of Democracy, even if nothing more than an experiment. We would like to see BM use the Democracy tool. In the end, that is what all of us really want. It's the way to embrace honest, open, effective discource and growth for this unmanagable monster that we all are creating even though we can't really stand each other!!! ;) Petitions, Borg2's, Tipping Points, Boycotts, Prizes, Flame wars, endless threads on tribe, newsletters, parties, camps, tyrades all the rest all add up to an honest look at the stewardship of the power that goverens the descion-making process of this civic entity that we all embraced as home. I see all this bla bla as nessesary steps to an eventual democratic landscape that the organization can not (and should not want to) escape. Even if it doesn't work. Especially if it doesn't work.

Chicken 2006-09-29T20:19:48Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d2dd3aa0-db01-467f-a097-dd056193a3c1 2006-09-29T20:00:56Z 2006-09-29T20:00:56Z

"then you're going to have rich areas and slums, services that don't get done properly, graft, greed, and corruption. You're going to get lots of busybodies who won't do the work trying to create policy" LOL it sounds like what I saw... "rich" theme camps, poor camps of a lean too, and a wow I made it (or better yet, I got here I have water and food, no bed no camp no friends).... poor public services not rendered appropriately, theft, corruption, hell even greed on some strange ass gifting levels... But that IS what makes Black Rock City a city... As far as democracy it is a pure form of it... yes one group calls the major shots, as in where, when, yada yada, but we vote for it every year by shunning what we as a culture don't like, actively embracing what we do. Hell we even vote by paying for our ticket and showing up, saying y'all are still doing somethin right, and here is my vote for proof. don't get me wrong I understand where you are going with this, but I think a larger view must be seen if black rock is to have any effect on today's society... but that is a different thread for sure!

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-29T20:00:56Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#1ba0638f-88cb-4177-9b25-3950e8a351ba 2006-09-29T19:55:07Z 2006-09-29T19:55:07Z

>If you truly want it to be a city, then you're going to have rich areas and slums, services that don't get done properly, graft, greed, and corruption. You're going to get lots of busybodies who won't do the work trying to create policy. You'll have a mess. < Are you trying to say BM doesn't have all that.....

Peter 2006-09-29T19:55:07Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d22e87ee-d983-498c-9993-001fd55cb8d0 2006-09-29T19:46:58Z 2006-09-29T19:46:58Z

<I do have to say that as an American that really believes in the ideals of democracy, I find it impossible to call some place my "home" that isn't democratic.> Why is that? Burning Man is a business. It is likely that you've called lots of places your "home" that were, in fact, businesses. Have you always owned your own home? If not, you were part of a business. Democracy is a very poor way to run most institutions. The Lusty Lady adult theatre in SF is a perfect example. When everything is running fine and the money is coming in, the worker-owners are all smiles and giggles. When the revenue slips as apparently has been happening lately, and people want to change some things to make the business make more money, suddenly pandemonium breaks out. Suddenly everybody is enemies with everyone else because the people no longer share a vision. With a business, you need only one or a few people to share a business. With a participatory democracy such as a co-operative, you have to deal with lots of visions, visions which are often at odds and irreconcilable. You seem to get the impression that Burning Man is a city. It is a festival; it is only a metaphor for a city. If you truly want it to be a city, then you're going to have rich areas and slums, services that don't get done properly, graft, greed, and corruption. You're going to get lots of busybodies who won't do the work trying to create policy. You'll have a mess.

David 2006-09-29T19:46:58Z Rockstar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#9886dfc0-d778-4678-9026-1b4da1f65c08 2006-09-29T19:31:12Z 2006-09-29T19:31:12Z

"Did you ever see Intolerance? " Yes. And a bunch of other epic movies you could name. I've seen films being made and have been inside soundstages. The very collective nature of the whole enterprise would blow a movie director's brains out his viewfinder. Maybe Terry Gilliam or Tim Burton could manage a clever approximation, but that's all it would be. I didn't read the article as propaganda or insider-baseball, taking it instead as rebuke to the declinist theory of Burning Man we hear so much of.

Rockstar 2006-09-29T19:31:12Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6fc17275-3b4f-4da2-b945-cf0697c09e03 2006-09-29T16:58:51Z 2006-09-29T16:58:51Z

" the biggest hollywood movie epic is nowhere near the logistical and creative complexity of it." No fucking shit. " For the whole of BRC in its real collective incarnation I agree, no fucking shit. BUT for the DPW and LLC's narcissistic claim that "they built this city", Fucking Bull shit. Frankly all the hoopla that they have this huge logistical nightmare, that they go to herculean lengths to give us this beautiful thing is crap. There are some underlying ideas and certainly a conceptual history that are pretty fucking cool, BUT, frankly the whole management and infrastructure issues are about on par with a medium sized indie film, maybe the art department on a smallish epic. Did you ever see Intolerance?

Nesdon 2006-09-29T16:58:51Z Rockstar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#48eb723e-3edb-4156-ae35-9a161e8a8811 2006-09-29T06:15:47Z 2006-09-29T06:15:47Z

" the biggest hollywood movie epic is nowhere near the logistical and creative complexity of it." No fucking shit. To express anything like what BM is like in cinema terms would require synchronized shooting at the three largest soundstages in the world under direction of the ghost of Frederico Fellini. Even if you could visualize it, engineering it would be a practical impossibility. "but what showed up out there instead was clearly more and better, whether large or small, and mostly offered by new agents few of us knew. how did all these new recruits get it so well and so fast? " Because we all heard the stories and all made up our own minds. Some of the most interesting folks I met at BM were my fellow '06 Virgins. Thanks for the shout-out! "in fact, i think i kinda need to make a public apology to the "rave community". because as things stand now, the best art project EVER built on the playa, and maybe EVER to be built on the playa, was built, in the end, by a rave camp. after the belgian waffle, what can i say? " It still makes me sad I can't ever dance in that place again.

Rockstar 2006-09-29T06:15:47Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#92597305-870b-4f56-b3b1-5f429485bcd2 2006-09-28T23:17:01Z 2006-09-28T23:17:01Z

>there is a long history of NP's who eat their leader Ok, but what just leadership are you referring too? Quite frankly, I'm not seeing much "strategic" leadership from anyone right now. The last big burst came in 1996/97 (which was admittedly before my time) when the current junta seized power, exiled John Law, and set up the modern era of Burning Man as we know it. I'm not complaining about the the decisions they made back then - which given the survival mode they were in were for the most part were correct - but I'm not seeing much "new" since then. They did change the burn to Saturday, which made sense, but is hardly revolutionary. Larry did (and I guess is still) trying to build out the regionals, but honesty, I could give a shit about the regionals. I don't have a problem "partnering" with them, and think the it is good to have regionals, but this is all about "radical self-reliance" and if a regional can't be self-reliant then so be it. Bye, bye, nice meeting you. I see this regional effort as a huge waste of time and resources. In fact, it took the BORG2 to refocus back on the "art", which is really all that separates BM from just being a big hippy rave in the desert. And the last two years have had outstanding art, thanks mostly due to Jim and Chicken standing up and demanding in their own screwed up manner that something needs to change. But the "leadership" gets no credit for the results, they were followers and obstructors but not leaders. I also dislike that the LLC is both a governing board and a leadership council and that everyone on the board is in super senior management. That was a necessity back in 1996, it is a determent now. It is also very bad management practice. The board needs new blood. And you worry about "the long history of NP's that eat their leaders" and I wonder (outside of Larry and M2) just what leaders we need to worry about? In any sort of 510c3, both Larry and M2 would be electoral shoe-ins. Hell, M2 managed to get elected to the BORG2 council). And the rest of the crew, if they can't get elected, big deal, they can continue to be just be managers. Personally, I think Burning Man needs to start trying new things. We're in a rut. Like why do we always burn a "Man". And whats the deal with the lamplighters? Isn't there better technology for lighting the streets that doesn't involve slave labor and kerosene? And why is the city always in a 2/3 circle. Yawn. And why can't we try a year with out Center Camp Cafe? Just to see if we miss it and its Starbuck's type atmosphere. And why (and not that I have anything against Camp Antarctica) but why is Camp Antarctica always at 7:30 and Center Camp? Jesus, I could walk into Center Camp the first time every year with my eyes closed and know where everything is. It is pretty clear that "leadership" is now just simply doing the same thing as last year... and that doesn't seem like part of the Burning Man ethos at all. Finally, I point out that Larry isn't getting any younger and that any radical change in corporate governance will be a lot easier to enact before his senility fully kicks in. Anyway, I need another drink.

johnnie 2006-09-28T23:17:01Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#c3061c23-01e3-4c7b-a404-0bc19dc7606b 2006-09-28T22:45:40Z 2006-09-28T22:45:40Z

<Well, let's warm up to Decompression by bringinging Burningman to Oct 5th Drive Out the Bush Regime. Theme camps at Camp Wake the Folk UP! www.worldcantwait.net> Not to sound like a troll or anything, but there are a lot of people, including people here on the Burning Man tribe, who owe their incomes to the $500 billion the Bush Regime has spent on Iraq. How do I figure? Well, the two biggest contractors receiving money from the government are Haliburton and Bechtel. Bechtel is headquartered in San Francisco. A friend of mine is doing major home remodeling for a mid-level Bechtel employee. So, one can look at the war against Iraq as a phenomenal waste of money, or one can look at it as a federal make-work program not unlike the Works Progress Administration the Roosevelt administration ran during the Depression. It's all in how you look at it. The bottom line here is the bottom line itself. People are not necessarily asleep as you say. They may not need to be awakened. It may well be that they've voting their economic interests as people usually do.

David 2006-09-28T22:45:40Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2bfcf3a5-ca5d-4048-9329-e76da7f950ac 2006-09-28T22:22:13Z 2006-09-28T22:22:13Z

Not to put words in his mouth, but Jims argument is that there is a long history of NP's who eat their leaders and then devolve into crippled consensus machines with no overriding vision to guide them. They end up kissing the asses of the idle rich for support and lose their ways. The taxcodes that allow 501c3 orgs to forego paying taxes involve all sorts of oversight and reporting with the goverment that can also be stifling. But who really cares about the taxes, so often it's jsut a dodge. The real soluiton is to just plow everything back into the project so there is no profit to be taxed. But what I discovered from Tom Silk et al was this idea of the Unincorporated Association. It has the potential for most of the advantages of a corporation without all the BS. Tom has negotiated with the IRS to establish some precedent, but the case law has not been established to really define how far it can go. What seems completely clear, is that the community needs a stake in the management and finances. Not that it needs to get less anarchic, I think the effort to let as much possible be ruled by the creative magic of chaos is one of the keys to what has gone on out there, and there is no reason that should need to end.

Nesdon 2006-09-28T22:22:13Z suzizzle http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#09b0aa86-b364-47a5-be20-da62aabbd20a 2006-09-28T22:15:31Z 2006-09-28T22:15:31Z

I read it when you originally posted it CJ, and I didn't see any reason to reply until now. I'm going to have to assume that flames are the best way to get your thread bumped and that's really what this is all about. Waaaa, I'm gonna leave the tribe too. "What was missing this year...something, I'm not going to say what, maybe tomorrow, I am way cooler than you and you'll never figure it out." This was an awesome review. I enjoyed it. To call 'fluff' because your thread wasn't at the top of the list everytime you checked back is a great plan. If I see Jim Mason in your thread titles I may read them...otherwise, I can't make any promises. Bump.

suzizzle 2006-09-28T22:15:31Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#eadadf97-977e-485a-a9be-c1cf00650899 2006-09-28T19:30:39Z 2006-09-28T19:30:39Z

> So what do we use for our leadership tabla when Mr. Harvey expires? It is pretty clear that if Larry expires under the current setup that there will be a bruising fight for control amongst the rest of the LLC. Near as I can tell, they really don't like or trust each other all that much. MM's position is secure because he holds the copyrights and can basically just go tell every one to leave him the fuck alone. The rest can't leave because they never find a gig as good as this one, so they'll fight to protect their little empires. It certainly won't be pretty or good for the organization. Regardless, it is high time for a change in the basic structure of Burning Man. The LLC was a fine model back in 1996 when the event's survival was in doubt every single year. But now the event is on firm ground, thanks in large part to the work of the LLC. However, I no longer believe that this model of leadership is appropriate or optimal for the long term survival of the event. I always thought that Jim and Chicken's BORG2 movement targeted the wrong place to inflict democracy on Burning Man What needs to happen for the event to continue to evolve is for Burning Man to morph from a benevolent dictatorship (which isn't always so benevolent) into a fully functional, participatory democracy (or I guess republic is a more accurate term) non-profit. Where the leadership has to be elected from time to time, and is thus held accountable at some level. Much like the Sierra Club, but for freaks and not tree huggers (which isn't to say that there is anything wrong with tree hugging or freaks or tree hugging freaks). This would also bring some sorely needed fresh blood and new ideas to the top of the organization. I do have to say that as an American that really believes in the ideals of democracy, I find it impossible to call some place my "home" that isn't democratic. And so I really think it is time for a coup d'etat. Off with their heads.

johnnie 2006-09-28T19:30:39Z Kamikaze http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6f6b012f-dc00-4753-9594-c71c7a0160b4 2006-09-28T19:26:37Z 2006-09-28T19:26:37Z

I agree with David. In my direct experience, America has been incredibly gifting. I'm working on a book. Not about David. KK

Kamikaze 2006-09-28T19:26:37Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#e7c9924a-27d3-4a2e-9ead-165a6770577e 2006-09-28T19:24:08Z 2006-09-28T19:24:08Z

<Yes, I know. If it weren't for all the kids in sweatshops all over the world how could where would all those glowsticks come from? I was thinking about the principle of "voluntary cooperation" the cornerstone of all Anarchies.> The spirit of co-operation has always been alive and well in America, probably because we've always had abundant natural resources, so we haven't had to literally fight with each other over water and food. We are, in fact, poisoned with an abundance of natural resources as Americans. We have an embarrassment of wealth. Thus, even the poor people of Appalachia or rural Mississippi still have enough resources that they can get by. The rest of their needs are met by co-operation, chipping in labor to build each other homes, etc. So, it doesn't really require a Burning Man template to make co-operation work; it already works. It's alive and well at just about any junk yard, trailer court, church, school, or community center you can think of. People help each other all the time. Co-operation is alive and well. This co-operation existed long before Burning Man existed. A lot of people at Burning Man think they have somehow discovered something new, and like anyone who has found religion, they are excited and anxious to lay it on everyone they see. But wait. The Burning Man people are actually the latecomers to this party. it's been going on all along. An example: Many years ago when my grandmother lived on a farm in Union City, a town near Fremont in the SF Bay Area, she had a problem with her well. It was drying up. Now, my grandmother, who never held a paying job in her life, was land rich and cash poor. She couldn't borrow money to dig a new well because she had no income to pay it back. She lived on my grandfather's pension and some Social Security. Her neighbors came to the rescue, though. They dug her a new well some distance away and re-piped as necessary, and even refurbished the pump for her, and patched some leaks in the tank house (water storage building). They *gifted* this to her. Unusual? No, typical.

David 2006-09-28T19:24:08Z Paladin http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#613f447b-2b51-4a84-9388-c1b70d6428b1 2006-09-28T19:22:38Z 2006-09-28T19:22:38Z

I will say this: The thought behind Temporal Decomposition and the Stock Puppets makes the Waffle look like a pile of sticks.

Paladin 2006-09-28T19:22:38Z johnnie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#b2499770-e8d3-43b7-99d3-fad522c79f07 2006-09-28T19:01:21Z 2006-09-28T19:01:21Z

> Okay, stop being a condescending ass You might have better luck asking the Moon to leave it's orbit. Chicken is what Chicken is.

johnnie 2006-09-28T19:01:21Z fko http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#c99f0d40-bb75-4de6-89e0-d96783a47314 2006-09-28T18:14:45Z 2006-09-28T18:14:45Z

Oh you mean, I didn't take the bait. ahhhhh I see.

fko 2006-09-28T18:14:45Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#286cd7f6-e684-48d7-a3fd-7bbf84dd9ce2 2006-09-28T17:58:07Z 2006-09-28T17:58:07Z

<< Oh I get it, were not the right audience >> That's not it fko, it's that you didn't say the right things.

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-28T17:58:07Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#444aebe5-cc98-409c-bc94-8d0c2ea991ce 2006-09-28T17:56:54Z 2006-09-28T17:56:54Z

<< In fact, despite my obvious bias, it is you Mr Mason, who would be the best heir apparent >> Yes! Jim for King of Burning Man! I heartily endorse this idea! How could it happen though? I can't see it happening. I see Marian taking the helm.

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-28T17:56:54Z fko http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7cd9a2c6-a7ce-428d-9fe8-dff4e30d1dc5 2006-09-28T17:54:35Z 2006-09-28T17:54:35Z

<< 429 posts were logged after Jim wrote this and not one responce >> Slylar and mine don't count? Well fuck us! Oh I get it, were not the right audience...aha. Just checking. It woudl be funny but nobody else is watching either. Keep on sucking on! :)

fko 2006-09-28T17:54:35Z Nesdon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#dca62651-39d7-44bb-b562-b2cf13afe1a5 2006-09-28T17:53:19Z 2006-09-28T17:53:19Z

So what do we use for our leadership tabla when Mr. Harvey expires? Everyone keeps dodging this, but I think legacy is a crucial issue. There is a bunch of cult of personality at play, and I have no doubt that with Marian, Harley, or Will in that role, the mojo will shift badly. M2 would be the logical sucessor, but he's older than larry, if healthier. They contend that the regionals and the conditions they have set for them, constitute the sort of framwork on which the values (not nearly as monolithic as they imagine) will continue to grow. Those seem to be too restrictivce and scriptural to be viable. The system must be extremely flexible and responsive. In fact, despite my obvious bias, it is you Mr Mason, who would be the best heir apparent. My response to the B2 thing as a mechanism by which we might construct a leadreship system that could transend the personalities and create a long term framwork that we could use to project our imaginings onto, seems to have been completely rejected. This seems to be a communty that craves a king, altho a very impotent one with a loud mouth, and you fit the bill perfectly. There is still at its heart the need for a fairly large bureaurocracy to handle all the details. But the key is that it still needs to remain connected to pondering the deeper meanings of the thing. It cannot become a souless functionarial, which is a real danger when those involved have so many mudane and often difficult tasks to manage. It MUST continue to be run as a work of art, that seems to me to be the real key. Art is never what is easiest, what is most expedient or most profitable, it is always something more than that, and there is where the soul of this great machine resides.

Nesdon 2006-09-28T17:53:19Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#ab562290-42c5-4b00-a5d5-07b766dddaac 2006-09-28T17:38:15Z 2006-09-28T17:38:15Z

Sorry, I didn't mean to be mean about Jim's writing. It's just that I read it a couple times, and could not get a feel for the point being made. I came away from it thinking, "Jim has made peace with Burning Man, that's nice." So, Chicken, when you deride us for our silence, this is what you might get.

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-28T17:38:15Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#154ed4e1-1529-4c43-ae2a-8e09eae618b6 2006-09-28T17:31:22Z 2006-09-28T17:31:22Z

<< 429 posts were logged after Jim wrote this and not one responce >> Jim's essay was 13 paragraphs of not very much. And then a follow up of six (seven?) paragraphs of saying Larry's not much of a leader. What's to discuss? There's no meat here. I liked Piss Clear's celebration of the tenth anniversary of 1996 a lot better.

$item.owner.firstName 2006-09-28T17:31:22Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#64a9a0af-5f7e-4771-a640-d7cdd8392d7b 2006-09-28T17:30:05Z 2006-09-28T17:30:05Z

I'm not being condescending... I'm genuinlly annoyed. You should apreciate my honesty. You respond to my post saying that you didn't read it and then make assumptions about whats in it them tersly reply and then kvetch about my being condescening. Can I get an Amen? My intention is to make/do/push/learn/rock.....

Chicken 2006-09-28T17:30:05Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2701402a-8485-4980-abc6-b3ebec4b76bd 2006-09-28T17:21:27Z 2006-09-28T17:21:27Z

Okay, stop being a condescending ass and people might listen. Or not.

Crypto 2006-09-28T17:21:27Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7813845c-7d76-4e9b-b693-93f8a8e4dc7c 2006-09-28T17:13:44Z 2006-09-28T17:13:44Z

What the fuck are you talking about? Noone is touting the old ways. I certainly am not, and havn't been. I 'refer' to the past from time to time, but by and large our interest is in the future. I don't have anything for you to swallow whole, I'm the guy who builds the templet... in which to do with whatever you want... You are remiss in your history, though. There is no influence on the event from the Cacophoy Society. BM is mearly a Cacophony Event. One of many. And if you are indeed interested in the future... please read Jim's Thesess... if not, maybe this thread is not for you. Maybe you can comment on the thread about baby wipes or rebar.....

Chicken 2006-09-28T17:13:44Z d'andre http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#07b9f36f-acfd-42a4-a2be-6b8a7ea8cd35 2006-09-28T17:06:57Z 2006-09-28T17:06:57Z

"The wealth and resources that flow into the playa are all sullied by capitalism... the gift economy is possible because of the surplus we create....in the big bad dirty world.... Well, let's warm up to Decompression by bringinging Burningman to Oct 5th Drive Out the Bush Regime. Theme camps at Camp Wake the Folk UP! www.worldcantwait.net

d'andre 2006-09-28T17:06:57Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#28c34d84-b1d2-49ca-8c4a-f8041333607e 2006-09-28T15:32:44Z 2006-09-28T15:32:44Z

Dang it, Chicken, while there is a part of me that wants to give old time burners props, basically I don't care. I'm glad that ONE of the old timers finally stopped praising the nineties and said something good about now, but I don't want to read it. I'm tired of filtering my experience through the experiences of people who probably wouldn't have welcomed my presence during the glory years and who have labled me an interloper purely on the basis of where in the chronology I came into it. And, much as I love the caco influence on the event, there is and probably always was a dense layer of theory, even if it was theory of rejecting theory that justs weighs down on the fun too much. And I say this as an intellectual. I'm sorry you find me to be a barbie doll, but frankly, I"ve never felt that you reached out to me in any appreciable way. I dont' want to be handed off your culture and swallow it whole, I want to find/create/experience my own. This is a huge tribe and so the concerns here are a little lowest common donomiator. Go start your own tribe "The HIstory and Meaning of Burning Man" and recruit people who want to have your discussion. If it makes any difference I don't read Larry's essays either.

Crypto 2006-09-28T15:32:44Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2ac19862-5e35-4717-a19c-2b17821817a6 2006-09-28T03:37:19Z 2006-09-28T03:37:19Z

429 posts were logged after Jim wrote this and not one responce. That says volumes. Lets go back to talking about Spaceboys' boner or what the problem with megaphones is.... math is hard!

Chicken 2006-09-28T03:37:19Z jim http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#6844c395-3cf7-4829-af43-f42258a6b310 2006-09-27T21:35:04Z 2006-09-27T21:35:04Z

""i remember standing in the middle of it all on friday night wondering how it could be possible that open source enthusiasm and inspiration, without clear plan or coordination, could assemble this density and diversity of creative expression. how much contracted effort in a top down managed organization would it take to produce the volume of curiosity and effort that was everywhere before me?"" glow said: this is one of the problems i have with the volume of criticism aimed at the org. not that i agree or disagree with whats usually said, but i think many people put more belief behind the org's influence than what is really there. its the people, the misshapen and fragmented sub-communities, the strange and bizzarre ways they come toghether in common effort that makes it all happen. hierarchial based management structures usually dont foster this kind of creativity, where decentralized and autonomous seem to work better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- though there is no group without leadership and some sort of cultural framing, i do agree that the orgs influence on what is happening at this point is much less than many of us hope/fear for. that was another thing i saw this year- just how much the org has been dwarfed by the efforts and info of the mass of creators. this year most of the theme framing from the org was largely ignored. everyone did what they found pleasing and of interest. a central narrative was about non existent. and wonderfully so. larry's leadership has become an odd sort of passive MIA libertarianism. for someone with such a powerful cultural seat, his resistance to getting in the center of things and more actively crafting is very curious. it has to be the obvious temptation for him. he knows where he wants / has wanted this thing to go. this is all he thinks about every waking moment (other than when he is stealthfully reading all this crap on tribe). but he has clearly made an assessment that is will not go there by the force of his will and ideas. but rather only by the messy process of everyone arguing about the thing and working it out in action. that it will only work if it is figured out, made and elaborated by the participants, not pointed to and directed at all by him. with slow progress each year. year after year. the evolution is thus painfully slow. and everyone is always screamig "do this" or "do that" and use all this head of steam for x problem / opportunity. like the often lobbed, "use bman for direct political action to save the world". such bait has never been taken, but rather only becomes more ingredients for the growing stew. yes, even the petition/borg2 art debate. even that got rolled into a larger discussion, and was made better and different in the process. at various times i have found this leadeship strategy to be of unique genius and superhuman tenancity. at other times i have found it a dangerous indulgence of "anything goes that grows the flock". that larry is either a stunning master of cultural engineering, or a very very lucky idiot savant, made largely oblivious by the wild success of his mystery cult. and thus we continue to argue about it and him, and what all this means. and by doing so, stir the stew of this cultural engine yet one more round. the fucker wins either way at this point . . . thus it seems larry has become the quiet therapist onto which all sorts of personal ideas and issues are projected. that the silence of leadership is defining, and has to be couteracted by attempted leadership from the choir. and by this mechanism of absence, larry has become the blank screen onto which all of us can't help but cast onto and reckon with whatever the current debate is in the project, ourselves, and the larger gig around us. in such a manner, larry has made himself an odd human parallel to the playa itself. a weird sort of human leadership emptiness that operates with similar dynamics as the physical playa. a leadership of emptiness with a similar resonance and suggestive power as the wide flat earth of black rock. jim

jim 2006-09-27T21:35:04Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#34d4284a-774b-4577-bdec-ad8970dadb30 2006-09-26T07:18:25Z 2006-09-26T07:18:25Z

Rainbow gatherings are some of his frequented TAZs'

Still Shiney 2006-09-26T07:18:25Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#60f3e58d-ad13-4626-b587-c4b0c92e5fd4 2006-09-26T07:16:44Z 2006-09-26T07:16:44Z

Hold his tongue? Not when he told me of the 700,000,000 million people alive today who are on no international cencus. That serve various purposes in what he called,"the underworld."

Still Shiney 2006-09-26T07:16:44Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#7f2e2894-2814-459a-91d8-b6954d338415 2006-09-26T07:14:07Z 2006-09-26T07:14:07Z

Rainbow warrior indeed. In a former life he was a mass murderer. I didn't believe it till I saw the website w/ over 300 videos of him in combat tours. He was captured by the foreign legion when he was 11 and made to fight.

Still Shiney 2006-09-26T07:14:07Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#58d2be1d-0ac8-4d87-8ae8-d65a55ff1bdd 2006-09-26T06:47:04Z 2006-09-26T06:47:04Z

hey, that sounds a little like a "Rainbow Warrior" to me.

cowboyangel 2006-09-26T06:47:04Z SUPERDAN!!!! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#97e85cf2-355c-4479-b4f1-e94d13185dfe 2006-09-26T06:46:57Z 2006-09-26T06:46:57Z

Did he hold his tongue when he said it?

SUPERDAN!!!! 2006-09-26T06:46:57Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#47e85c56-03ac-4559-b171-3b08f1dae399 2006-09-26T06:46:00Z 2006-09-26T06:46:00Z

A Pirate Utpoia. I can dig it. I met a man who was born on a pirate ship @ a rainbow gathering.

Still Shiney 2006-09-26T06:46:00Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#35d72709-9b52-43ac-af7b-bf5585cf0090 2006-09-26T06:43:19Z 2006-09-26T06:43:19Z

I like the expansiveness of the article and the upbeat tone. If there was buried sarcasm, I completely missed it. I was thinking, when you're in love, EVERYTHING looks beautiful and you are caught up in the drugginess of it all. Can't see dark shit when you're in that state. BM kinda induces that state because it says YES to so many thing. And love says YES because that's all it can say. Rule by artists is what the fuckin planet needs now..The intuitive, the creative, the opened possibilities. See Chicken, it is a model for how to run things, imperfect as it may be. And Ya, it is the most important city in America right now. It is.

cowboyangel 2006-09-26T06:43:19Z Trouble http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#fc336bd7-8f63-4a64-b76f-3c38b91cd908 2006-09-26T06:17:45Z 2006-09-26T06:17:45Z

>>Who is John Galt?<< Ack! No! Not Ayn Rand! *quivers in terror*

Trouble 2006-09-26T06:17:45Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#25779dad-7b7c-4dd4-b662-b0c43b972f04 2006-09-26T05:21:36Z 2006-09-26T05:21:36Z

Ya know, I found some super interesting reading in pirate utopias. Little republics or anarchies or whatever that pirates who droppped out made. Fucking intence. And there is so much info on it. I like to think of BM as a pirate utopia. That sounds like a really powerfull thing.....

Chicken 2006-09-26T05:21:36Z Judy http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#686e4ee1-9012-469b-a8ca-8efaaad8207d 2006-09-26T00:39:50Z 2006-09-26T00:39:50Z

Awesome. Just awesome. And exactly what I needed to read after the shitty day I just had. J

Judy 2006-09-26T00:39:50Z Neon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2d0753d5-c543-4b7a-8d9d-35b771268b94 2006-09-26T00:33:21Z 2006-09-26T00:33:21Z

Who the fuck is Disney?

Neon 2006-09-26T00:33:21Z josh http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#3725b23b-44ba-4f67-bd2c-288c5164aaf6 2006-09-25T23:55:35Z 2006-09-25T23:55:35Z

Honestly...It was better in '96. Why? Cause I wasn't there.

josh 2006-09-25T23:55:35Z HarveyNormal http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#bc8c74ed-a873-4b3a-9297-40d0c28d9fb2 2006-09-25T23:07:18Z 2006-09-25T23:07:18Z

Good to see you are thinking Stil.... As for anarchies, well, from what I understand that meaning, self sustaining organically forming decision making communities linked with other communities only - well, maybe. As for a way to the future - BM can give strength & ideas, but is it a model for the future? Yes, but a glowstick ≠ a society. But, what it has achieved is trying a TAZ city over and over again. I would imagine that if you or I were given the keys to create a city for 40000 people with very little US money transacting (the cafe etc eliminate total gift economy in the bounds of BM) we would probably do the same. For the 'we' is 'them', and in us is a bit of totalitarian and a bit of communalism, some compassion and some rule basing. Which is why I'm not getting my boobies in a moop. Coz, Larry is another artist, and within all orgs, there are people of all strands. BM reminds me more of 1917 Russia in its first few days. A city and country open to a new way, new ideas floating through, self organising soviets giving. If BM coincided with the Russian Revolution then I imagine that we would have Battleship Potemkin on the playa. Well, I dont \believe\ that, but its an analogy that just came to mind. Enjoy!

HarveyNormal 2006-09-25T23:07:18Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#b1e030ad-06bd-492a-a9b6-ac4b07350a37 2006-09-25T22:18:17Z 2006-09-25T22:18:17Z

Yes, I know. If it weren't for all the kids in sweatshops all over the world how could where would all those glowsticks come from? I was thinking about the principle of "voluntary cooperation" the cornerstone of all Anarchies. I think of the event as something that in a way "pokes fun" at the rest of the under civilized world.

Still Shiney 2006-09-25T22:18:17Z orlando! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#12bad514-673a-4859-b14b-5143d1c14617 2006-09-25T21:30:56Z 2006-09-25T21:30:56Z

"the ONLY reason something like this would not work is because all the successful anarchies in history have been forcibly conquered by non-anarchies." The wealth and resources that flow into the playa are all sullied by capitalism... the gift economy is possible because of the surplus we create....in the big bad dirty world..... I don't want to get into all the ins and outs.... but BM is anarchist like only a little- and only practices by some in earnest... though we do see hints of what is possible, no?

orlando! 2006-09-25T21:30:56Z glow http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#64826e32-9916-4098-899f-ec5a7658d284 2006-09-25T20:30:32Z 2006-09-25T20:30:32Z

thanks for posting this. ""i remember standing in the middle of it all on friday night wondering how it could be possible that open source enthusiasm and inspiration, without clear plan or coordination, could assemble this density and diversity of creative expression. how much contracted effort in a top down managed organization would it take to produce the volume of curiosity and effort that was everywhere before me?"" this is one of the problems i have with the volume of criticism aimed at the org. not that i agree or disagree with whats usually said, but i think many people put more belief behind the org's influence than what is really there. its the people, the misshapen and fragmented sub-communities, the strange and bizzarre ways they come toghether in common effort that makes it all happen. hierarchial based management structures usually dont foster this kind of creativity, where decentralized and autonomous seem to work better. ""whole "more art, less raves" agenda feels kinda blown. in fact, at least 4 dance camps i saw this year contributed spectacular installations of imagination. so i relent. fine, raves are ok."" i dont think the event is going to be run over by the dance community. it did seem to push some things to the margins, but just like many other sub-communities it has found its place and established a new balance with the rest. the fact that dance camps have embraced and extended the installations to new levels should give them more respect now.

glow 2006-09-25T20:30:32Z Still Shiney http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#bd438fa3-802a-42ac-9841-064ece196583 2006-09-25T19:49:01Z 2006-09-25T19:49:01Z

I couldn't agree more. I ask myself that same question all the time about whether or not a BM type model would work societely, and I always say,"yes" and some naysayer always says no. Being a student of history, I can tell you confidently that the ONLY reason something like this would not work is because all the successful anarchies in history have been forcibly conquered by non-anarchies. Burningman, however is totally unprecedented. I believe Hitler himself might weep on Monday when he realized it was time to go. My buddy who's a marine veteran of both gulf wars has killed people with his bare hands and normally doesn't abide whining. I approached his now desolate camp Sun. night after Uchronia (the waffle) burned. He told me that he couldn't stop crying all day, because everybody else in his camp wanted to leave early. The level of collective creativity is indeed staggering. On Thursday night my camp Hosted a cocktail party. Our friends' band played, while we and our neighbors drank and were merry. I looked from the bar to inside our "livingroom" and saw it full of dancing people. A mother with her two young daughters danced ecstatically (sober no doubt) in front of the stage to a moving rendition of "Love is What I Got" by Sublime. I broke out with a 2-3 min. coherent, pertainant, stream of rhymes upon the mic under much diress. The next morning my brother and I were walking down the esplenade and saw two(real) dogs barking at a third, robotic dog. The huskey, muscular, pit-bull repeatedly ran up behind it to sniff its butt. Later @ center camp I saw about 40 easles with charcoal chalk, all of which had artists creating something on them. The Serpent Mother!!! Fuggett abot it! I met a virgin named Red the night of the burn, who'd built an enormous, mobile, skeletal, steel, pyramyd that had platforms and hammocks and disco balls hanging all over it. 25-30 people in/on this thing and Johnny cash playing loudly on the stereo system. He drove that thing down the highway from Iowa. To all the people who make it what it is, I have this to say: THANK YOU!!! Thank you Chicken John, thank you Larry, thank you Jim Mason, and thanks to all the others who are far too numerous to mention, whose contributions can never be adequately appreciated. Thank you.

Still Shiney 2006-09-25T19:49:01Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#84886e31-2344-48d3-8fd2-9a0a021b1b7c 2006-09-25T19:25:11Z 2006-09-25T19:25:11Z

it's the process not the product...

Peter 2006-09-25T19:25:11Z skygod http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#2ab47d89-9e26-49ea-8399-aeef27b941fe 2006-09-25T18:46:34Z 2006-09-25T18:46:34Z

It was way fun this year!

skygod 2006-09-25T18:46:34Z Amanda http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#299e7865-fdff-4684-a7db-f8e0c03b1015 2006-09-25T18:41:13Z 2006-09-25T18:41:13Z

Who is John Galt?

Amanda 2006-09-25T18:41:13Z think http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#b2f32785-f258-4c7f-8c35-95286602db7c 2006-09-25T18:23:35Z 2006-09-25T18:23:35Z

Jim, thanks for that summary. I agree completely. John, when we bumped into each other at the box shop a week or so before taking off for black rock, we talked a little about the burningman lifestyle versus burningman event. I don't really know one way or the other, but something in Jim's post, maybe the complexity of it all, hints to me that even if it is just an event, preparing this year took up an insane amount of time and personal resources. Personally, if I treat the time and energy it took to make it happen, solely as an event, it doesn't make a stitch of sense. But knowing that I love the prep, love the drive (even with all the headaches), love the dust, the noise, the spectacle, the art, the chaos, the characters. It seems that a container called "event" isn't big enough to hold it all. It's not religion, that creeps me out, but it's something bigger than just an event. Cheers, Cooper

think 2006-09-25T18:23:35Z orlando! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#d62cd9b2-fcbc-4441-a657-49a587bbd9ed 2006-09-25T17:15:51Z 2006-09-25T17:15:51Z

yeah but I said who THE FUCK... so not so much with the Disney.

orlando! 2006-09-25T17:15:51Z ♪James http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#62888c0c-f6bd-419a-ab73-955a94ef243b 2006-09-25T17:03:12Z 2006-09-25T17:03:12Z

Starring Tim Allen.

♪James 2006-09-25T17:03:12Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#528acb8b-5182-4b88-ab99-06bc8950e6a9 2006-09-25T17:00:43Z 2006-09-25T17:00:43Z

"Who is Jim Mason?" That so sounds like a Disney movie....

Chicken 2006-09-25T17:00:43Z Jeffz http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#933d1526-aa4c-4202-bbb2-6f9d379578b1 2006-09-25T17:00:24Z 2006-09-25T17:00:24Z

wow, that's a great review. Nice to see the rave camps getting some props for the amazing installations they do.

Jeffz 2006-09-25T17:00:24Z orlando! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#a17d0913-d877-48b9-9580-5469d6bba9c6 2006-09-25T16:46:20Z 2006-09-25T16:46:20Z

Who the fuck is Jim Mason...??? (I kid, I kid.) That's a great piece.

orlando! 2006-09-25T16:46:20Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/d9a92588-303f-47db-9873-78e86bfc2981#da8be570-a8ff-417a-87e5-b12a5f69a4f7 2006-09-25T16:38:28Z 2006-09-25T16:38:28Z

from a couple weeks ago... BURNING WATER sitting in hot water up here with the hippies at harbin hot springs, it seems this place has become the new intransit bathtub for returning playa argonauts. the parking lot is full of dusty cars, piled high with bikes and junk. the water has a clear and present sheen of playa dust and fun fur. and yes, it seems most everyone is still nekkid and smiling at what just happened. or at least i am. did i drink too much coffee or did this last round out on the flat earth not restore confidence in what a mass of humanity, well fortified with a sense of creative entitlement, and a gang of their pals with which to scheme and implement the contents of their imagination, might in fact be the most impressive force to reckon with on the planet? i'm not really sure i believed it could work on this scale. that 40k+ people could assemble over a well worn form and still stir the creative stew so impressively, and oddly, still so intimately. that it could still be so strongly felt and creatively smart at the level of the single individual, while also realizing itself as so much more at the scale of the massive whole. that mayhem and wonder could be on offer with such breadth and depth in all directions, at all times, in all forms, towards all ends. the hysterical sublime, rendered at-large, for everyone in line to drink . . . what i saw out there this year was the best demonstration to date that unscripted enthusiasm for participatory creative work can be a successful civic and cultural engine at a societal scale- not just at the local dimensions where we usually enjoy its pleasures. that the collective cultural upchuck and symbolic incantations of 40,000 creators can be better than one involving 25,000. and the one which enables and enfolds 100k or 200k or 500k in years to come, can be better and stronger still. which begs the obvious question: can it work at a civilizational scale? some of us continue to wonder . . . i remember standing in the middle of it all on friday night wondering how it could be possible that open source enthusiasm and inspiration, without clear plan or coordination, could assemble this density and diversity of creative expression. how much contracted effort in a top down managed organization would it take to produce the volume of curiosity and effort that was everywhere before me? the biggest hollywood movie epic is nowhere near the logistical and creative complexity of it. maybe a war effort is logistically more, but the ideas and diversity of human input is certainly less. staring at it longer, about the only thing i could figure out it was, was the internet. a physical manifestation of a near infinite body of creators, creating in every possible direction, for everyone- somehow finding simple joy in offering the contents of their imaginations to others, for the shear pleasure of doing it. an oddly satisfying saying of "i am". it seems far from a coincidence that the web and burning man surfaced as popular phenomena on near identical temporal arcs, sharing a near identical geographic origin. maybe the bi-idiom borrowing here is not trivial? read any web 2.0 rant and replace "web 2.0" with "burning man". or really, maybe reread kevin kelly's electric musing on the gift eco-system of the web, and wild impossibility of what has in fact happened, and consider the similar dynamics. the whole thing reads parallel to the playa. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.08/tech.html i admit most of us thought the event would dip this year after the brouhaha of 05, after the bottoming and demoralization of 04. but what showed up out there instead was clearly more and better, whether large or small, and mostly offered by new agents few of us knew. how did all these new recruits get it so well and so fast? the idiocy/inspiration ratio was completely impressive, everywhere, always. on related notes of usual complaint, we must admit that the burgeoning regulatory infrastructure was mostly forgotten and a non-issue the first day out. the worried eyes of the law were nearly completely absent due to the good work of the llc. even the trinket pushing hippies were cool this year, while the trash fence continued to be easily breachable at speed. and also, yes, even the rave camps managed to do spectacular things this year. in fact, i think i kinda need to make a public apology to the "rave community". because as things stand now, the best art project EVER built on the playa, and maybe EVER to be built on the playa, was built, in the end, by a rave camp. after the belgian waffle, what can i say? i'm not really sure if i'm qualified to speak anymore. the whole "more art, less raves" agenda feels kinda blown. in fact, at least 4 dance camps i saw this year contributed spectacular installations of imagination. so i relent. fine, raves are ok. humble pie has been sliced and served (on spinning 12" platters). so in general, i must admit (yes, even to larry) that the entire thing was simply stunning and amazing this year. a massive creative potlach and conflagration of human wondering far past what most of us ever thought was possible. yes, 2006 was even better than 1996. ok, there i said it. just don't hold me to it . . . it is terribly unfair that only 40k+ people get to enjoy this every year, along with its ever growing network of participatory creative work across the nation/world. it is the most viable creative venue and civic vehicle i know of. so larry, quick, point at some distant horizon and announce "to there!" the kool-aid has been chilled and is waiting to be served. we all stand at attention awaiting further instructions . . . j _______________________________________________ icp mailing list icp@lists.spaceship.com http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com

Chicken 2006-09-25T16:38:28Z