http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#648b7682-6bff-4b1e-86ed-ece69a571ecd If we may step ack to this discussion's original post for a moment ? "...........So I went to my first burn............ But I ask you this How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron.............. Don't cheat here and say that you are empathetic, or sympathetic to the plight of others. That is an intellectual cop out and not an answer for the purposes of this string. Charity has its place, but it has no role in the proper function of our government. Doubt me see the constitution......... " This should open a good debate about the Free State Project concept www.freestateproject.org in Hew Hampshire. Many Burners in the forums boast and theorize about how to be "Radically Self Reliant" 24/7. There are some who are standing together supporting each other for smaller government, personal freedoms and not to use force against another, all the while living closer to being self reliant each day. Many of these FSP members left their lives to come to New Hampshire to live what they believe. So just letting you know, the rest of this post is just my advertising the FSP and Porcfest 2008. If you can't make it to NH, I'll be at Burning Man with the Rangers/Medical/ESD after Porcfest 2008 and Burning Porcupine to let you know how teh events went...... Here's my invite those who believe action means more than words and come visit us and see what is happening at PorcFest 2008 the liberty event of the Free State Project (FSP) www.freestateproject.org June 9th – 15th Gunstock Mountain Resort in Gilford, New Hampshire. The details are online at www.PorcFest.com PorcFest 2008 is to showcase New Hampshire and the FSP community through parties, tours, BBQs, hikes, informal discussions, concerts, shooting, trips, camping, and activities that suit the needs of families, singles, and kids alike. The liberties enjoyed by New Hampshire citizens of shall-issue concealed-carry permits, the constitutionally protected right of revolution, no income or sales tax, their interactions with local and state legislators and 101 other pro-liberty reasons. PorcFest 2008 is an event you will remember. If you ever missed a burn before you know how it is afterwards! Don’t let PorcFest 2008 and the FSP be another "Missed Burn"! (Porcfest is the FSP.org sanstioned event ... there is also the "Burning Porcupine" like the '80's BM for those that know those that know which is by invite only). If you believe in Liberty, Freedom, the quest for smaller government, “Bill of Rights”, support the Constitution, the 2nd amendment where open and concealed carry is the norm and are looking to achieve personal responsibility you definitely need to check this out. The quality and quantity of successful liberty activists, the community they enjoy in NH with The Free State Project and their legislators are amazing. There’s a good and short video from PorcFest 2007 produced by Free Minds TV (one of two libertarian TV shows in NH….how many of these are there where you live ?) discussing the FSP and the festival at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nm8-2Plxt0 . There's an FAQ page at http://www.freestateproject.org/festival/faq for any questions or information about the event or the FSP. Post as well to the PorcFest forum at http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=60.0 Friends that have made the move to New Hampshire are more self reliant than ever having their own TV and radio programs, documentaries, newspapers, homes and websites. Search the sites of what the Free State Project and its participants are about and have accomplished in the first 4 years since New Hampshire was chosen as the Free State. View the videos such as Rep. Dan Itse’s, who instructs New Hampshire citizens on their Constitution http://www.nhliberty.org/nh_constitution_class and trains citizens how to give testimony to state committee on legislation http://youtube.com/watch?v=mN97RTEDX4A ( where other than New Hampshire can you find state representatives that will teach you your rights and how to challenge bills?). www.youtube.com/watch?v=xysgXCfJ0kQ - FTL Radio's Ian www.freetalklive.com www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8L0HehoOhM -Dale Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:12:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#648b7682-6bff-4b1e-86ed-ece69a571ecd Tom 2008-02-13T20:12:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a020d9ac-19ba-4aad-8b2c-57545d7dc916 And where did you get these talking points from? This "Hocus Pocus fantasy science" is actually rather well researched medical fact. Consider this from emedicine online about the causes of cerebral palsy: "This damage can occur early in pregnancy when the brain is just starting to form, during the birth process as the child passes through the birth canal, or after birth in the first few years of life." What this tells us is that Edwards was able to demonstrate a causative link between the care the doctors gave and the brain damage to the plaintiff, while, at the same time proving that the doctor operated in a way that was negligent and failed the prudent person rule; namely, that a reasonable doctor, with similar training and experience, would not have operated in the same way. Just because a person is a successful trial lawyer does not mean that they are morally bankrupt, nor does it mean that they do not believe they are having a positive impact. I would like to know who you are supporting. Lets compare records of Edwards and your candidate. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:17:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a020d9ac-19ba-4aad-8b2c-57545d7dc916 Jeremy 2007-11-19T01:17:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#90875ed9-e5c5-40f8-a03b-5a5047f41579 If 29% is "almost every woman in america" then you're a very poor mathematician. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:17:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#90875ed9-e5c5-40f8-a03b-5a5047f41579 Crypto 2007-11-19T01:17:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5d9b589b-3e12-444e-af20-a373b4bd31d3 Jeremy Pretends for a moment that he is thoughtful about all that is Politic................and then he states that he is thinking about voting for a trial lawyer who made his living off the hocus pocus fantasy science involved in suing the doctors who happened to deliver children who had cerebral palsy. Thanks to John Edwards almost every woman in america has a C-section............with no corresponding drop in the incidence of cerebral Palsy. After all that......................a lot of money has changed hands John Edwards has a big house And Jeremy thinks he might make a good president you see why I don't take you seriously man..? Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:55:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5d9b589b-3e12-444e-af20-a373b4bd31d3 glennzzz 2007-11-19T00:55:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81158e02-5a81-45f2-813a-15830791cd10 "Europeans, because they've been so inept at exercising it, no longer believe in national sovereignty, whereas it would never occur to Americans not to. " Don't bet your last Amero on it. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:47:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81158e02-5a81-45f2-813a-15830791cd10 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-19T00:47:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f3e0dfa1-d536-4a7b-bbc5-f65810b513aa ah, the personal attack - "full of shit" comment - that stays. The misinterpretation - ditto. Whatever. This is why I think it's best to agree to disagree rather than be an ass. So, I'll bow out of the thread - (and actually do so) - Peace n pastafarian love at ya. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:17:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f3e0dfa1-d536-4a7b-bbc5-f65810b513aa Tia 2007-11-19T00:17:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#af411454-330a-4cb7-be1f-f0678ea613d8 You have my most sincere apologies for misquoting. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:05:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#af411454-330a-4cb7-be1f-f0678ea613d8 Jason 2007-11-19T00:05:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#72ec2a88-b088-40ab-9861-53e651fb19ea yawn. "Well, I suppose being a libertarian progressive socialist democrat you can say just about anyone is "full of shit". But I say pot-kettle-black on that one." I know who I am. I know what I believe. I know your doctrine and the doctrines of the parties involved. If that makes me full of shit - so be it. I never said socialist. I said social-democrat. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:31:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#72ec2a88-b088-40ab-9861-53e651fb19ea Tia 2007-11-18T22:31:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#4e3016f9-b5b7-4c6f-afb2-32edc10c808b Well, I suppose being a libertarian progressive socialist democrat you can say just about anyone is "full of shit". But I say pot-kettle-black on that one. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:14:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#4e3016f9-b5b7-4c6f-afb2-32edc10c808b Jason 2007-11-18T22:14:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cd0ca54e-3b89-4a9a-8752-8a85e205ff64 You'd think wrong. I think he's funny. I also think he's full of shit. "I read Steyn because he's funny.... I think a "progressive" would read Steyn to better argue against people that agree with him." Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:03:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cd0ca54e-3b89-4a9a-8752-8a85e205ff64 Tia 2007-11-18T22:03:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#04e24562-c6fc-4420-bd2c-7d7119e2c3d1 I read Steyn because he's funny.... I think a "progressive" would read Steyn to better argue against people that agree with him. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:47:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#04e24562-c6fc-4420-bd2c-7d7119e2c3d1 Jason 2007-11-18T21:47:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#099557cc-a563-4f2b-bafc-d4fc39976898 Have you met Karl Rove lately? Cmon. I see both parties talk out of their asses on this issue all the time. "Return to family values" ring a bell? Corruption of Clinton....renting lincoln bedroom.....blah blah blah - it's all the same shite. "The point is that the Democrats and the "Progressives" always talk about how bloody fucking important ethics are but aways strike me as a very very smarmy bunch, indeed. It is Orwellian." Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:14:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#099557cc-a563-4f2b-bafc-d4fc39976898 Tia 2007-11-18T20:14:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#4ab0c363-c192-4e29-acc3-77a58898ed46 "As you as so fond of calling things "Orwellian" I submit that you are a master of what Orwell called "Doublethought"" Hot damn, snap. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:11:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#4ab0c363-c192-4e29-acc3-77a58898ed46 Tia 2007-11-18T20:11:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3586977e-6bb8-4a2e-9b7e-62d6401bee92 Perhaps for 1. and 2. of that definiition. Since we are going back to stepping away from one society to another, I'll give ya agreement on 3....for *some* of the populous however quite regressive for other populations (see victorian era). Pre-1924 so unless they were time travelling, nix that. No. 5 - eh. Maybe, but it's a stretch. I stand by my assertion that to call the forefathers progressive is disingenuous and kinda hilarious. I do see your point though. Just a note: Not all of the political forefathers were rich OR white. Many were not rich in the sense of where they came from but since it's a "new" society, where commodity markets are set up by those in power with their interests in mind it became that way. Certainly that wealth is made more easily grasped via the means of pillage and confiscation, oppression, genocide, and the creation of the "system". Many of the influential in politics were not rich nor white. I certainly didn't want to leave the impression that they all were - especially because my old prof's would probably hunt me down and ream me out for it. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:07:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3586977e-6bb8-4a2e-9b7e-62d6401bee92 Tia 2007-11-18T20:07:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b9a44b6f-22ea-4230-8299-2bd6858ebc99 "For Jeremy, your thoughts on christianity are complete balderdash..................and for the record I don't give a toss how you feel about religion, or jesus..........as I said before they are private thoughts. But Jesus as left of Lenin...............we will leave you to St. Peter to sort those thoughts out................." Really? Give me a biblical citation that supports this statement. Your position is absolutely typical of a Christian who has been told what is in the Bible, not one who has read it. If you had read it, you could counter my arguments with scripture. I am an atheist. Does it not bother that I know your Holy Book better than you do? If you don't think that I do, I challenge you to prove it. If you know what you are talking about, you should be able to pretty easily destroy my position as I have the distinct disadvantage of being a non-believer. More than likely, however, you will not be up to the challenge and will ignore this post. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:07:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b9a44b6f-22ea-4230-8299-2bd6858ebc99 Jeremy 2007-11-18T20:07:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2f39d96b-6708-4f25-ae19-d5cd118e094f You keep mentioning property and income tax, but you ignore the most common federal tax, namely payroll tax. Payroll tax is paid by the working poor and the middle class and is a significant percentage of their income. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:56:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2f39d96b-6708-4f25-ae19-d5cd118e094f Jeremy 2007-11-18T19:56:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e05858fb-6fdd-40e6-b0f2-9b3a91622c1d First off, THANK YOU for your well thought out comments on this thread. You are a shining light of reason. On this point, however, I will have to partially disagree with you. While our political forefathers were wealthy, rich, white, slave owners, one could still argue that they were progressive if one takes the dictionary definition of such: 1. Moving forward; advancing. 2. Proceeding in steps; continuing steadily by increments: progressive change. 3. Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership. 4. Progressive Of or relating to a Progressive Party: the Progressive platform of 1924. 5. Of or relating to progressive education: a progressive school. 6. Increasing in rate as the taxable amount increases: a progressive income tax. 7. Pathology Tending to become more severe or wider in scope: progressive paralysis. 8. Grammar Designating a verb form that expresses an action or condition in progress. n. 1. A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government. 2. Progressive A member or supporter of a Progressive Party. 3. Grammar A progressive verb form. They would certainly not fit with definition 4 of the organized progressive political party, but they would fit with definitions 1,2, and 3 in the adj, form and definition 1 in the noun form. A stronger argument can be made that they were libertarian, but it is really easy to be libertarian when one is a rich white land/slave owner. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:50:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e05858fb-6fdd-40e6-b0f2-9b3a91622c1d Jeremy 2007-11-18T19:50:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#43f462fa-41ce-48d0-8fb8-40721d95b9da "elllipsis" ils the singular And check out "aposiopesis" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposiopesis Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:37:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#43f462fa-41ce-48d0-8fb8-40721d95b9da grouchosuave 2007-11-18T15:37:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#43d8fe5e-9ffa-4e78-a0b3-1331e64ee23d "ellipses" you're welcome :D Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:34:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#43d8fe5e-9ffa-4e78-a0b3-1331e64ee23d grouchosuave 2007-11-18T15:34:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9bc358e5-651d-4ada-a720-f6cabd546a77 YES. THANK YOU. I've been reading through this thread, terrified to say anything about the constant mis-use of ellipses (ellipsi?) and yet also terrified of SEEING the endless trail of dots. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:20:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9bc358e5-651d-4ada-a720-f6cabd546a77 Joshua 2007-11-18T15:20:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ee14424b-52f5-4e29-ae02-885518407403 My vote, Crypto for the "win". Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:07:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ee14424b-52f5-4e29-ae02-885518407403 Joshua 2007-11-18T15:07:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#11b0ec2c-ceaf-4ce6-9dc0-35f16093f9c9 "I thought I was the only one on this tribe that read Steyn...." nope. some progressives do too. the horror. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:05:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#11b0ec2c-ceaf-4ce6-9dc0-35f16093f9c9 Tia 2007-11-18T15:05:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e0b306cf-f785-4dd9-a7cc-92edcdc62b3d Well said, Alice. Thank you. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:58:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e0b306cf-f785-4dd9-a7cc-92edcdc62b3d Joshua 2007-11-18T14:58:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7fe3013a-3893-4dab-8e91-56905beac7e6 I thought I was the only one on this tribe that read Steyn.... Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:17:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7fe3013a-3893-4dab-8e91-56905beac7e6 Jason 2007-11-18T10:17:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6daaf875-a1b7-4be9-b50b-6ab6acaf4b0d Well...It's certainly nice that you have defined the parameters of an "intellectual thread". Unfortunately, your underlying assumption is horribly flawed. I found most of the burners I met to be pretty self reliant most of the rest of the year. Witness the large numbers of Winnebagos, and other land yachts, in attendance. I didn't notice anyone giving those away at the front gate. As for their politics...It's hard for me to believe you somehow managed to gather the kind of data that would allow you to make such an absurdly sweeping statement. If you're that good at reading the minds of the electorate, maybe you should form your own political party. Having said that, BM is nothing more than a cross section of what is out there in the so-called "default world". There were plenty of fruit loops there from both extremes of the political spectrum...and lots of variants in the middle. The only real "consensus" they seemed to share was that they were on vacation. In any case, it seems a bit masturbatory to define the "sole premise" of BM as radical self reliance for your own deconstruction project. Almost as entertaining as listening to your twisted theories of why the "have-nots" have not. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:04:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6daaf875-a1b7-4be9-b50b-6ab6acaf4b0d Gobo Joe 2007-11-18T10:04:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#65d8dc57-c908-44df-8fab-073c0a217d76 Wow...You really believe in that whole "Liberal Media" thing still after the utter lack of reporting that ocured in the run-up to the war? Amazing! As you as so fond of calling things "Orwellian" I submit that you are a master of what Orwell called "Doublethought" Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:35:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#65d8dc57-c908-44df-8fab-073c0a217d76 Jeremy 2007-11-18T08:35:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2e72722a-6732-41a2-87a6-74147abc0ed1 Medical litigation is NOT the cause of spiraling healthcare costs. Payouts for medical lawsuits have remained increased slowly, in total sum adjusted for inflation for the last decade while insurance rates skyrocketed. Ironically enough, the link below is to the Boston Globe, which is the paper you just cited in your last post: http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/06/01/rising_doctors_premiums_not_due_to_lawsuit_awards/ Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:31:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2e72722a-6732-41a2-87a6-74147abc0ed1 Jeremy 2007-11-18T08:31:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#99e61bff-5ab9-460b-8b24-22d02da83772 Orwellian? Sure, the Democrats suck, but is Orwellian the right word to use considering the current administration? Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:24:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#99e61bff-5ab9-460b-8b24-22d02da83772 Jeremy 2007-11-18T08:24:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#078c4713-ef36-401b-955d-f6a157b5d877 I agree. All I can say is that the Republicans are worse. Hillary does not impress me due to the fact that, while the war in Iraq was going to Hell, she was busy co-sponcering an Anti-Flag-burning amendment and going off on legislation against video games. If she had any integrity, she would have been doing what was right, namely calling the Bush Administration to the carpet on its corruption, arrogance, and ineptitude. Obama DID impress me, but he has gotten off track and is not showing himself to be a strong leader. Edwards has my support, but I do not believe he will be the nominee. Therefore, what choice is left other than vote for the Democratic candidate, whomever it should be? Certainly voting for the Republican is out of the question. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:21:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#078c4713-ef36-401b-955d-f6a157b5d877 Jeremy 2007-11-18T08:21:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#27a90bc7-f9b2-48a6-9c69-474747cbe27a You are confusing the Progressive/liberal movement with the Democratic party. The Democrats no longer uphold the ideals of liberalism any more than the Republicans do conservatism. If one is truly liberal, then one is not a Democrat; if one is truly conservative, then one is not a Republican. The ONLY reason I vote Democrat is because there is a possibility of getting them elected over the Republicans who have shown themselves to be EVEN MORE corrupt. The Republicans stood by this President while he totally trashed their ideals about small government, fiscal responsibility, and governmental accountability for the simple reason that he stated he was a Republican (that and the whole God, Guns, and Gays thing.) When Clinton went against the ideals of the Democratic party like he did with NAFTA, the democrats did not join in behind him in lockstep, simply because he was "their guy". Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:13:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#27a90bc7-f9b2-48a6-9c69-474747cbe27a Jeremy 2007-11-18T08:13:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#83ffeb22-22e4-4e88-96dd-47621352666a From that same link: The Democrats recently handed the Republicans a cultural cudgel when Clinton and Schumer were nailed trying to earmark $1 million for a museum commemorating the 1969 Woodstock concert. USA Today reported that the museum's sponsor gave the Clinton campaign $9,200 and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee $20,000 after the earmark was filed. I am just sick and fucking tired of the HYPOCRISY of the "Progressive"/Liberal political wing in this country. The last thing I would ever consider them to be is "Progressive". They are just as bad as the right wing, actually worse. And basically whenever I hear them accuse the right of doing ANYTHING, I become suspicious that they themselves are engaged in exactly what they are accusing the other side of in order to throw up a smoke screen to their own crap. NEITHER political side as any real moral compass but at least he news media has the right so fucking scared that it has to work on eggshells most of the time and is kept in line by a combatant press. The left does whatever the fuck it wants. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:52:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#83ffeb22-22e4-4e88-96dd-47621352666a Geekster 2007-11-18T06:52:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#53d81a6e-c3f1-41fa-a70d-bb0f7f6ef459 http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/11/17/heavy_on_the_congressional_pork/ HILLARY CLINTON talks of "our effort to change America." Barack Obama's rallies are nicknamed "Countdown to Change." John Edwards latest mantra is, "Money is corrupting our democracy. We can either accept it or demand change." Whatever change these presidential candidates are talking about is a mystery. As they pontificate in Iowa and New Hampshire, their fellow Democrats in Washington oink-oink away. A year after regaining control of the Senate and the House by railing against "George Bush's war" in Iraq, the Democrats show no sign of changing the war machine. In the summer, I noted how four of the top five senators who earmarked money in their states for defense contracts were not Republican hawks but liberal and centrist Democrats - Carl Levin of Michigan, Clinton and Charles Schumer of New York, and Jack Reed of Rhode Island. Six of the top 10 senators in defense campaign contributions in the 2006 election cycle were Democrats - Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts, Clinton, Chris Dodd of Connecticut (another presidential candidate), Dianne Feinstein of California, Bill Nelson of Florida, and Democrat-turned-independent Joe Lieberman of Connecticut. Last summer, Kennedy requested $100 million for a General Electric fighter engine the Air Force said it did not need. ... Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:42:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#53d81a6e-c3f1-41fa-a70d-bb0f7f6ef459 Geekster 2007-11-18T06:42:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#c6de155d-1db2-482b-9013-b21ec0020225 Mark Steyn: We know Eastern Europe was a totalitarian prison until the Nineties, but we forget that Mediterranean Europe (Greece, Spain, Portugal) has democratic roots going all the way back until, oh, the mid-Seventies; France and Germany's constitutions date back barely half a century, Italy's only to the 1940s, and Belgium's goes back about 20 minutes, and currently it's not clear whether even that latest rewrite remains operative. The U.S. Constitution is not only older than France's, Germany's, Italy's or Spain's constitution, it's older than all of them put together. Americans think of Europe as Goethe and Mozart and 12th century castles and 6th century churches, but the Continent's governing mechanisms are no more ancient than the Partridge Family. Aside from the Anglophone democracies, most of the nation-states in the West have been conspicuous failures at sustaining peaceful political evolution from one generation to the next, which is why they're so susceptible to the siren song of Big Ideas – communism, fascism, European Union. If you're going to be novelty-crazed, better the zebra-mussel cappuccino than the Third Reich. Even in a supposedly 50/50 nation, you're struck by the assumed stability underpinning even fundamental disputes. If you go into a bookstore, the display shelves offer a smorgasbord of leftist anti-Bush tracts claiming that he and Cheney have trashed, mangled, gutted, raped and tortured, sliced 'n' diced the Constitution, put it in a cement overcoat and lowered it into the East River. Yet even this argument presupposes a shared veneration for tradition unknown to most Western political cultures: When Tony Blair wanted to abolish, in effect, the upper house of the national legislature, he just got on and did it. I don't believe the U.S. Constitution includes a right to abortion or gay marriage or a zillion other things the Left claims to detect emanating from the penumbra, but I find it sweetly touching that in America even political radicalism has to be framed as an appeal to constitutional tradition from the powdered-wig era. In Europe, by contrast, one reason why there's no politically significant pro-life movement is because, in a world where constitutions have the life expectancy of an Oldsmobile, great questions are just seen as part of the general tide, the way things are going, no sense trying to fight it. And, by the time you realize you have to, the tide's usually up to your neck. So Americans should be thankful they have one of the last functioning nation-states. Europeans, because they've been so inept at exercising it, no longer believe in national sovereignty, whereas it would never occur to Americans not to. This profoundly different attitude to the nation-state underpins, in turn, Euro-American attitudes to transnational institutions such as the United Nations. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:32:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#c6de155d-1db2-482b-9013-b21ec0020225 Geekster 2007-11-18T06:32:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3e1542e0-73ac-4c34-bd7f-493fefcb3b0e And this http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/11/cnn-plants-questions-to-protect-hillary.html And this http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/questions-about-carville-begala-and-cnn/index.html?hp and this http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/15/225040/11 When even Markos Moulitsas questions CNN and the Clinton campaign's ethics ... that's saying something! And they were worried about Fox hosting a debate? Hell, if Fox held the debate at least they would probably be equally hard on all the candidates and not setting things up for Hillary. The point is that the Democrats and the "Progressives" always talk about how bloody fucking important ethics are but aways strike me as a very very smarmy bunch, indeed. It is Orwellian. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:35:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3e1542e0-73ac-4c34-bd7f-493fefcb3b0e Geekster 2007-11-18T05:35:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a6ca2d3e-0b45-481c-8b34-73e0949fccd4 Oh. and then there's this: http://pcexposed.blogspot.com/2007/11/cnn-goes-green-by-gardening-plants.html The RepubliCrats are ass. I would be quite happy in a country presided over by a married homosexual president who owned an assault rifle in a country with caps on medical litigation that resulted in affordable health care without government control. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:23:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a6ca2d3e-0b45-481c-8b34-73e0949fccd4 Geekster 2007-11-18T05:23:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81c870fd-6955-46a7-90c0-5a6b314ea8a6 Unfortunately what one called a Progressive Liberal back then is what is called Conservative now. Liberalism was the idea that the individual was superior to the state. That it is NOT the role of government to function as a charity. That it is NOT the role of taxation to redistribute wealth. Classical progressive liberalism is now the platform of the Republican party. The notion that it is the role of government to "take care" of people and act in a sort of parental role isn't liberalism, it is neo-liberalism. It is a "new liberalism" that is "liberal" in name only. Sort of Orwellian, actually. I consider myself libertarian (with a small "L"). The Democrats are basically for government regulation of just about everything. They behave as if our income is theirs to spend as they see fit and we should be thankful for what we might be allowed to keep. And the only reason you can't find as many results in a google search on corruption by Democrats is that newspapers generally reflect the political agenda of the publisher (mostly Democrats) and if they publish a story about Democrat corruption at all, will rarely mention the party affiliation in the article. Hillary Clinton is the biggest political crook since Richard Nixon. Another major Clinton fundraiser was indicted today: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5309272.html Both the Republicans and the Democrats suck but in my opinion the Democrats suck much worse and are much scarier. I do not EVER want the government responsible for my healthcare. Once a political party can decide who does and who does not get what treatment, it is all over. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:53:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81c870fd-6955-46a7-90c0-5a6b314ea8a6 Geekster 2007-11-18T04:53:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0a6ede25-e39c-430e-9e8a-0a6556368f0c not sure what the Geek is saying but the thread was about the constant preening that burning man is a better way of..............something.........many hold it up as a better way of life, governing etc....... I simply found that I liked what I saw at burning man.............but found the premise contradictory with how many burners ostensibly vote, and how many live their lives...................... Jason articulates accurately how libertarians and fiscal conservatives feel about the government..................me........I tend to go a step further and think that people who want to federalize programs.................have a bit of a mental disorder...........or they have their hand in the pocket............... Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:48:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0a6ede25-e39c-430e-9e8a-0a6556368f0c glennzzz 2007-11-18T04:48:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#23e76924-9917-4239-9c00-a8a0b153a4f5 it may be more direct to describe a set of quantum connections as a spin foam I'm sorry, it just needed to be said. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:11:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#23e76924-9917-4239-9c00-a8a0b153a4f5 Geekster 2007-11-17T07:11:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#da0d7e09-5bb0-4a16-a103-69bd2bf1044b "Ol' Glenn is demonstrating that one can appear on the surface to be completely "respectable" and yet live in a hallucinatory world as unconnected with reality as what we'd associate with the most tripped out hippy raver......etc" Or maybe Glennnzzz just realizes that good intentions have never and will never trump economic reality. People do things that make them happy and avoid things that make them mad. You can't wish that away with smarmy speeches. Having said that, "society" doesn't know people people's minimum needs are. Do you actually know what everyone's needs are? Do you know mine? No? Then how can you begin to know what the needs of the other six billion people on this planet are. Your legislators don't know either. They only know what will make them personally happy and that's mostly buying enough votes to get re-elected. Look, just don't call yourself a libertarian. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 03:58:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#da0d7e09-5bb0-4a16-a103-69bd2bf1044b Jason 2007-11-17T03:58:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3405066d-1916-497c-ae36-bcd36e9b3a38 "Well, you could make a teensy eensy effort to explain what data makes you think differently" I would but I've got a really bad cold and am kind of nyquiled out. "you've done that mixing political idealogy with the faith of the true believer thing" I don't know where you got that. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 03:50:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3405066d-1916-497c-ae36-bcd36e9b3a38 Jason 2007-11-17T03:50:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1171e7aa-e17d-4484-bbce-e06c2534b121 Well, you could make a teensy eensy effort to explain what data makes you think differently - but I suspect that like Glenn, you've done that mixing political idealogy with the faith of the true believer thing, so actual evidence just is something to be dismissed as "lawyerly bullshit"...kinda like trying to discuss Darwin with a creationist. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 02:58:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1171e7aa-e17d-4484-bbce-e06c2534b121 Kelly 2007-11-17T02:58:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#89b5e90b-f0a8-46cd-89ff-75c6df0eea2f "Nope, only the very limited in logic (and knowledge of the actual world outside of libertarian theory) need be so restrained " If you say so...this is where it gets all lawyerly with the back and forth bullshit. All of your "logic" hasn't convinced me of anything, I guess I should stop downing those acid/meth/ex smoothies. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 02:31:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#89b5e90b-f0a8-46cd-89ff-75c6df0eea2f Jason 2007-11-17T02:31:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5546673b-9eb8-478e-b1b6-0166efe218c7 Yeah Jason, you read what I said but you can't actually refute it. <If you're a libertarian, you'd more than likely be against both corporate and social welfare. You'd be for a free market and free trade between individuals and corporations with little or no government interference. > Nope, only the very limited in logic (and knowledge of the actual world outside of libertarian theory) need be so restrained. As I pointed out, one should be free to decide what food they think is best and healthiest for them, but in the name of corporations' "freedom from government interferance", people are prevented from having the information needed to make that choice. That's just a single quick and easy example - anyone who wants to take a moment to think about it can think of a dozen more. Hey, it took laws being passed to end the practice of human beings outright owning other humans not all that long ago (i.e. big government limiting property rights) - if anyone thinks "market forces" would have done it, they're flying higher than a club kid who just downed a 24 ounce speed, acid, and ex smoothie. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:53:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5546673b-9eb8-478e-b1b6-0166efe218c7 Kelly 2007-11-16T23:53:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fa897ef3-c393-48d4-92b6-bac62a3b353a "See, when you post stuff like this it just makes me want to say, "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one." Some of my very dearest friends are progressives, I've had numerous conversations with them, and they've never once pretended to be for a limited government... Anyway, I'm out of this thread. Mostly I just get a kick out of how pissed off some of you guys get at Glenn. It kinda reinforces my belief that conservatives generally have a better sense of humor than liberals." Guess you don't have many progressive friends who are more libertarian leaning. Not cookie cutter...not pretending. Not pissed at Glenn. Conservatives usually have better food - not sure on the sense of humor ;-) Adios Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:07:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fa897ef3-c393-48d4-92b6-bac62a3b353a Tia 2007-11-16T23:07:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#351d6852-f07e-4f0a-b776-87dd96aa2d76 "Hang on....stripper factory (are they hot strippers?) AND beer volcano (is it good beer?)? What would one have to do to join this religion? " I'm pretty sure all you have to do is go back to your Tribe bio, scroll down to religion and select "Pastafarian." Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:01:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#351d6852-f07e-4f0a-b776-87dd96aa2d76 MdJGutie 2007-11-16T23:01:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7bfec603-3c16-4ce4-b465-3123965070f1 [At least Weazie admits hey, this radical self reliance................is really just a party. Couldn't deal with paying my freight in real life man..................... ] I'm sorry to hear you can't pay your own freight. I know I can. Whether burning man as "just a party" is irrelevant. It isn't sustainable as a year-round lifestyle (and even now it is hitting economy-of-sclaes issues). So I don't understand the compulsion to apply it on a macroeconomic or societal scale, which has different issues, variables, and operating parameters. Or to somehow deduce that those who attend burning man are hypocrites if they have a differing view from you on taxation policy. And as Dr. Placebo pointed out (and you basically ignored) people pay taxes all the time, in a variety of ways (most notably sales and excise taxes). To simply equate not paying income taxes as not paying into the system is either being disingenuous or ignorant. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:53:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7bfec603-3c16-4ce4-b465-3123965070f1 Weazie 2007-11-16T22:53:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#c36f95b4-e175-43de-9f8e-50eaf9c6cc67 "You state in another post that progressives don't believe in a limited government. That's actually not true. Lots don't, but there are a spectrum of people who would define themselves or be defined as progressive who do believe in limiting government." See, when you post stuff like this it just makes me want to say, "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one." Some of my very dearest friends are progressives, I've had numerous conversations with them, and they've never once pretended to be for a limited government... Anyway, I'm out of this thread. Mostly I just get a kick out of how pissed off some of you guys get at Glenn. It kinda reinforces my belief that conservatives generally have a better sense of humor than liberals. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:53:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#c36f95b4-e175-43de-9f8e-50eaf9c6cc67 Jason 2007-11-16T22:53:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8d431683-356c-4004-9788-7158827f205d As we say at the end of the Pastafarian prayer, Ramen! Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:52:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8d431683-356c-4004-9788-7158827f205d Rhino 2007-11-16T22:52:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9a78fe78-d98e-4ddd-95d8-24bfee99253b "You would also find out that the lack of pirates is the cause of global warming. " You sure it's not just too many fat ass people eating mcd's while driving the suv's? Nope. It's the pirates, got to be the lack of pirates. Must meet flying spaghetti monster though. He sounds yummy. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:49:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9a78fe78-d98e-4ddd-95d8-24bfee99253b Tia 2007-11-16T22:49:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5e79cdcb-f5c5-462b-95b0-1f9b67fea230 You've got to be kidding me, right? You haven't heard of Pastafarians, those people who follow the Flying Sphaghetti Monster as he touches all with his noodly appendages? See: www.venganza.org You would also find out that the lack of pirates is the cause of global warming. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:42:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5e79cdcb-f5c5-462b-95b0-1f9b67fea230 Rhino 2007-11-16T22:42:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8aa31e39-672f-4df2-8dce-15dfd553a1dc "Do I believe that so long as there is corporate welfare there should also be general social welfare?" If you're a libertarian, you'd more than likely be against both corporate and social welfare. You'd be for a free market and free trade between individuals and corporations with little or no government interference." Jason, Yes. If I was a "traditional" libertarian, that would be my position and full ideology. I'm not. Never claimed to be. I am not nor will I ever be a member of that party sir. (j/k) More likely in which circle? The right leaning libertarian circle? Depends which circle ya float in. I just left D.C. so maybe it's been total immersion in political folks for a bit but in my opinion there are rarely little boxes that work for individuals....on either side of the aisle and definitely not within libertarian. Have cake and eat it too? Hell yes please. Why would I want some abstract concept that doesn't work IN PRACTICE? Yes, I want the shiny cake and I want to enjoy it. I also want my government to function within limits by the people *for* the people. I am for little interference from government. I am for government action where required. You state in another post that progressives don't believe in a limited government. That's actually not true. Lots don't, but there are a spectrum of people who would define themselves or be defined as progressive who do believe in limiting government. The reason I say that 'so long as' comment is because there is more fiscal irresponsibility in the tax loopholes, corporate welfare, and military spending than there ever *could* be on any entitlement program. Free trade has little to do with the entitlement programs in the sense that it is not directly related to commerce. Your statement of "You'd be for a free market and free trade between individuals and corporations with little or no government interference" does not take into consideration that being for a free market and free trade doesn't mean that social welfare is completely discounted as a health and welfare aspect of the state. IMHO the right-leaning libertarian focus is short-sighted in that it does not consider this to be of any import nor does it consider the global or full domestic implications of no government involvement with trade. Have some chinese candy toys lately? Got minerals in them now they do ;-p Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:26:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8aa31e39-672f-4df2-8dce-15dfd553a1dc Tia 2007-11-16T22:26:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bdcb22ac-fc7d-4e9f-a5b9-0a29f71f5d1f Hang on....stripper factory (are they hot strippers?) AND beer volcano (is it good beer?)? What would one have to do to join this religion? Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:54:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bdcb22ac-fc7d-4e9f-a5b9-0a29f71f5d1f Jason 2007-11-16T21:54:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d257e93d-13d7-494d-b32a-a9a9f1669714 Sorry....misspelled....Pastafarian...one who follows the Flying Sphaghetti Monster's path towards heaven, which is the site of the stripper factory and beer volcano. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:45:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d257e93d-13d7-494d-b32a-a9a9f1669714 Rhino 2007-11-16T21:45:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7eb5a1cf-6c28-4c37-ba2b-f0bfa373cacd Progressives don't believe in limited government. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:45:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7eb5a1cf-6c28-4c37-ba2b-f0bfa373cacd Jason 2007-11-16T21:45:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54baa833-e0a6-4333-85a6-3d9f4d412549 Rhino- What's a "Pastararian"? Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:43:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54baa833-e0a6-4333-85a6-3d9f4d412549 Jason 2007-11-16T21:43:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b73a3d26-33db-461b-a21d-b14e5fede75f Kelly- I read it already. I just think that so called "left libertarians" want to have their cake and eat it too.. Tia- If you believe in the same limited government that libertarians do, why do you say, "Do I believe that so long as there is corporate welfare there should also be general social welfare?" If you're a libertarian, you'd more than likely be against both corporate and social welfare. You'd be for a free market and free trade between individuals and corporations with little or no government interference. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:42:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b73a3d26-33db-461b-a21d-b14e5fede75f Jason 2007-11-16T21:42:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a54a8909-8096-4bea-97cc-32d6864a927e Hey Jason, see my post from a few days ago on what it means to be a progressive libertarian: http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#96b27439-b28f-4af4-9e56-382c71fe96ee It elaborates on the same principles Tia brought up. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:55:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a54a8909-8096-4bea-97cc-32d6864a927e Kelly 2007-11-16T20:55:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#978eb4ac-dadb-4ac6-92a8-183c838617e5 "Do you remember what you wrote?" Yes. Try again. Use logic this time. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:50:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#978eb4ac-dadb-4ac6-92a8-183c838617e5 Tia 2007-11-16T19:50:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1cdabec5-9e86-4633-b73a-f1d9772647c1 "All you have to do is delete "libertarian" from your sentence and then you have no contradictions." Incorrect. The overlap is varied. There is no inherent contradiction. There are left leaning and right leaning libertarians. Do I believe in limited government? Yes. Do I believe that so long as there is corporate welfare there should also be general social welfare? Yes. Do I believe in responsibility? Of course. Liberty. Check. Explain how you see a contradiction. "Libertarian: A person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action." Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:49:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1cdabec5-9e86-4633-b73a-f1d9772647c1 Tia 2007-11-16T19:49:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3de39ad0-6fc0-4ff8-b1f8-ebf75b502d05 No shit? I'm an imperial feudalistic hetero Wiccan Episcopalian Zen Pastararian who thinks that trenchless technology is the wave of the future, and that adding pirates to the world is how we can stop global warming. Long Live the Flying Sphaghetti Monster! Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:46:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3de39ad0-6fc0-4ff8-b1f8-ebf75b502d05 Rhino 2007-11-16T19:46:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7e438638-2986-4afd-9aff-abb2cbc851f3 All you have to do is delete "libertarian" from your sentence and then you have no contradictions. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:40:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7e438638-2986-4afd-9aff-abb2cbc851f3 Jason 2007-11-16T19:40:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5df8a319-c4ea-4cfe-b054-c1e7de20b2cc "There actually aren't contradictions in mine" Do you remember what you wrote? Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:38:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5df8a319-c4ea-4cfe-b054-c1e7de20b2cc Jason 2007-11-16T19:38:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9cf3d927-0b14-40e4-9901-718d0a73c626 hehehe. There actually aren't contradictions in mine ;-p Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:33:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9cf3d927-0b14-40e4-9901-718d0a73c626 Tia 2007-11-16T19:33:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7aefde90-eb61-4a7c-9114-0c72a60f7ff0 "In that way the founders were engaging in a bit of radical self reliance...? " If radical self reliance means engaging in slavery, indentured servitude, genocide and the oppression of half the population then yeah....sure....self reliant. That's the ticket. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:13:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7aefde90-eb61-4a7c-9114-0c72a60f7ff0 Tia 2007-11-16T19:13:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9736a74c-cc58-476b-af72-a1d277805c43 "number 1 predictor of a kid growing up in poverty, guess what.....nothing to do wit the gubmint, are the parents married... " cite. Note that married couples with children have two incomes in which to raise a child. Causation and correlation are two different things. Again - cite please. I'd guess the CCC but that's just because I recall them putting that bs out there a bit ago. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:09:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9736a74c-cc58-476b-af72-a1d277805c43 Tia 2007-11-16T19:09:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1495c9aa-0e93-4595-8c44-3ec92cee1a0c a progressive libertarian social democrat who believes social welfare is a benefit to society? that's weird, because I am a Maoist republican lesbian Christian atheist who believes box kites are good for the weather. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:09:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1495c9aa-0e93-4595-8c44-3ec92cee1a0c Jason 2007-11-16T19:09:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8c494be8-73b0-4c59-bff3-d72946b5ac17 "We are trillions in the red, our currency is getting devalued to hell, I worry about the market and the economy and you seem to want to ratchet up the spending................ " That is completely disingenuous. The reason the country is trillions in the red is NOT because of social welfare programs. You know this. It is because of military spending, random pork, and a slew of other misguided policies. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:03:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8c494be8-73b0-4c59-bff3-d72946b5ac17 Tia 2007-11-16T19:03:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ea31e488-6a16-443e-b70d-3d9700ce0980 "This country was founded by progressives" This has had me laughing for ten minutes. Are you serious? What is your definition of progressive? Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:00:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ea31e488-6a16-443e-b70d-3d9700ce0980 Tia 2007-11-16T19:00:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#71efc576-86ba-4d65-bd4f-39ab39c05455 Ah, interesting question. I'm actually a progressive, libertarian, social-democrat. I have voted both democratic and republican. I'm not strongly tied to either party nor platform however, I am always a liberal. The premise of self-reliance requires the toolbox. There are certain tools I believe one needs in order to do the week vacation on playa, there are even more within the social structure. Not everyone has those tools or aquires them during their lifetime. Looking at the society, going strictly darwin could work....but I think there is a better way. The political framework will always give what we think of as corporate welfare, while arranging some minor amounts of social welfare programs. Social welfare is to me, a benefit to the total society. I know, I know....you'll love the word welfare here but it's where I come from in thinking about the subject. Charity is not the same as social welfare. Charity is a handout. Social welfare, if integrated properly, can be a hand up that benefits the individual, the neighbor, the children of the recipients, as well as entire country. btw...I know the constitution word by word. I also know the interpretation by our Court. Though you may separate the two, I see them as integrated in the viewing of our government. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:57:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#71efc576-86ba-4d65-bd4f-39ab39c05455 Tia 2007-11-16T18:57:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a05262f6-9477-440d-ab82-26f74b8f7ea6 Actually i agree with your last statement........ San Francisco pols are the worst. They have created a dreadful tax situation where people with money are reluctant to invest in the city and create jobs, the supervisors are unwilling to do their jobs and use direct tax money to pay for appropriate infrastructure projects, instead getting bonds approved by voters for most projects, so the rich having good advice simply invest money in tax-free environments. Environments usually created by the lefty politicians.....................anyway, yeah, it's a real circle jerk. Unaf........ you blather on and on and never say a meaningful word............. if you disagree, put a coherent thought out there and we can respond................. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:19:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a05262f6-9477-440d-ab82-26f74b8f7ea6 glennzzz 2007-11-16T18:19:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#92d1f589-c74f-4438-87a8-fe38f94fcc6b Actually, someone paying "no property tax" is usually paying rent, and the property tax is indirectly paid by the rent, so it's a bit churlish to claim that the renter is not paying the tax, although the money is one level indirect through the owner. If the renter were truly not paying the tax then the rent would logically be lower. And a soldier in a combat zone pays no income tax on the military income he or she receives during that time. I gave that as a particularly understandable example of a class of people who do not pay pay federal income taxes but do have a stake in the country. It's not a big stretch to imagine other classes of people like that. It's a huge stretch to imagine that all people who pay no income taxes are freeloaders. The argument about people getting great benefits and paying no federal taxes is quite weak. I've already mentioned the non-income federal taxes (might as well include state and local, too). You could claim that they are not paying their "fair" share, but saying the "half the country pays zero and takes untold hundreds of billions" is not strictly true, and demeans many who deserve better treatment. When I was in college there were years where I was of adult age and paying no income tax (insufficient taxable income, duh). It was hardly a free ride, since I got a good job based on that education and I've been paying substantial taxes (federal, state, local) ever since. I also paid to put two more children through college, and I do not regret the cost. Funding public education through property taxes has its problems, and we could have a long discussion on how broken it is. But if we looked at education as an investment rather than a public handout we'd probably have a better education system and a public more willing to spend money on it. That's true of a lot of other public spending, by the way. What fries me about the tax system is not the poor who pay no income tax, but the rich who pay little or no income tax. It's the people who use a corrupt system to make tax loopholes for themselves so they can pay a percentage far less than the average middle income taxpayer. And I'd be willing to bet that most of them vote Republican. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:14:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#92d1f589-c74f-4438-87a8-fe38f94fcc6b dr.placebo 2007-11-16T11:14:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#aa5fb42e-be00-46cd-85ab-29a51bcb4c62 >>In the case of Glenn and the many folks like him, it's a much more subtle but ultimately as effective method of perception-twisting: the constant repetition of stories told amongst themselves, believed in with the faith of the truly religious, all with the message of justifying their position of privilege in the world, and villifying anything that might endanger that privilege. hide<< Yes, exactly. And another thing they do: Ignore any arguments and facts that are contrary to their beliefs. This was perfectly exemplified in a previous thread when Badger called Glennzzz out and announced a framework under which a debate could be had, wherein Glenn couldn't just ignore contrary facts. Glenn responded once, pretending to accept the conditions, but then completely let the thread die. He then started this one a few days later, so that he could continue to rant and troll without the inhibiting condition of facts and boundaries. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:02:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#aa5fb42e-be00-46cd-85ab-29a51bcb4c62 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-16T04:02:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81b71d64-6f0d-4cb3-8fc6-cb853e9be2e5 Dr P makes a great post, but no one here would argue that someone in a uniform is the equivalent of someone paying zero income tax . Also some of the flat taxes you name are regressive, but what about property taxes for public schools. The majority of people whose children attend public schools pay no property tax......................how is that for regressive/ Frankly funding public education through property taxes is a bad idea whose time has come and gone..............but that is another thread entirely Again, the pushback I continue to get is from circumstances I would consider outliers, evading the core issue. At least Weazie admits hey, this radical self reliance................is really just a party. Couldn't deal with paying my freight in real life man..................... This is what our country is now...........half the country pays zero and takes untold hundreds of billions. Dress that up, say some of em are fucking crazy and can't help it (Ok) but the reality is you can't dress it up. If we decided to dress burning man up like the tax code the majority of you guys vote for, you would find it the most heinous party imaginable and the playa would be empty. Ok, 48% of all burning man attendees don't have to pay, they don't have to bring any shit to sleep in, We will provide it for them.............and hey they get free food paid for by the rest of the peeps, and you have to give them free drugs and beer................. and oh by the way, because of all the beaurocrats we need to administer burning man, your ticket price just quadupled.............. I'll see the 8 of you that still come on the Playa next year........... Radical Self Reliance Edwards or Obama or Hillary for President...........hoo ya, and oh by the way, fuck Bush. You don't have to say it.........I agree Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:59:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81b71d64-6f0d-4cb3-8fc6-cb853e9be2e5 glennzzz 2007-11-16T02:59:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#607d2d53-265d-473c-96cb-f92258941b12 Gee, since this thread keeps getting bumped up, I'll just add that it's been a pretty interesting read in a twisted sort of way. Ol' Glenn is demonstrating that one can appear on the surface to be completely "respectable" and yet live in a hallucinatory world as unconnected with reality as what we'd associate with the most tripped out hippy raver. He lives in a world where the phrases "promote the general welfare" and "insure domestic tranquility" aren't written in the Constitution as reasons for the very existence of government. A bizarre reality where Christian charity is a lovely option but there's something horribly wrong with a society trying to ensure people's minimum needs are met so there's no necessity for charity in the first place. A world where there is some sort of logical fallacy in thinking that the government shouldn't be able to arrest adults for having sex with other consenting adults and at the same time thinking that a national health care system would serve the public better than our for-profit model. A world where acknowledging that racism exists and has put some people in a disadvantaged position compared to others is the most egregious act of bigotry . At least in the stereotypical hippie raver who's explaining how Krishna came out of the saucer and declared that you can bring world peace by dancing to techno for 60 hours straight, you can chalk it up to the drugs. In the case of Glenn and the many folks like him, it's a much more subtle but ultimately as effective method of perception-twisting: the constant repetition of stories told amongst themselves, believed in with the faith of the truly religious, all with the message of justifying their position of privilege in the world, and villifying anything that might endanger that privilege. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:58:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#607d2d53-265d-473c-96cb-f92258941b12 Kelly 2007-11-16T01:58:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#eced37a8-3e4a-408a-8bd6-0fe1dde2d51d Great thread Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:21:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#eced37a8-3e4a-408a-8bd6-0fe1dde2d51d Fishbits 2007-11-16T01:21:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9a326def-744c-4fba-9c51-36c19d16e15a Let's not reduce "the federal tax system" to the income tax alone. There's FICA, various excise taxes (like for gas) and "user fees", and a host of others that are less visible. Most of these are either neutral or regressive, and anyone who earns or spends money encounters them, visibly or not. Similar comments could be made about the state tax systems. Also, equating paying no federal income tax with having no stake in our country is an opinion not shared by some. I suspect that many who pay no federal income tax would disagree, especially those working poor in uniform. See http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=101262,00.html Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:57:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9a326def-744c-4fba-9c51-36c19d16e15a dr.placebo 2007-11-15T22:57:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d608eae3-13c8-4979-bd37-fd595e1f6155 Two significant differences between burning man and rest of the year: 1. Burning man is optional. 2. Resources are more scarce. Also, at burning man, *I* agree to be radically self reliant. I cannot force others to be the same. And I don't think if I give someone some water, I'm encouraging a culture of lack of self-reliance. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:43:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d608eae3-13c8-4979-bd37-fd595e1f6155 Weazie 2007-11-15T21:43:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b1b758f7-fae9-4d79-957f-97d3a4daa4b4 Ha Rhino, Hopefully they will do the right thing for the bridge with the eyes of the world watching..........but as far as the rest of california's infrastructure..............they have too much money to hand out to radically self reliant people For Jeremy, your thoughts on christianity are complete balderdash..................and for the record I don't give a toss how you feel about religion, or jesus..........as I said before they are private thoughts. But Jesus as left of Lenin...............we will leave you to St. Peter to sort those thoughts out................. the only thing that really makes sense here is that a near majority of federal wage earners in the United States have NO federal tax burden. They have no stake in our country other than what they get back in entitlements. Tax foundation estimates are as follows 41 percent of whites, 56 percent of blacks, 59 percent of American Indian and Aleut Eskimo and 40 percent Asian and Pacific Islanders had no 2004 ZERO federal income tax liability. Including dependents of these people we have a little less than half of the population of America who live outside the federal tax system. The system that hands out money, that refuses to hold students or parents accountable for educational achievement etc. So as Rhino will attest, the roads, bridges, railroads, water systems crumble, the progressives and other corrupt pols (including Bush) continue to hand out more and more in entitlements So Radical Self Reliance is good for a party.............which is pretty much what I thought. I just hear the chatter about Burning man as a better way.......................and you know what.............I think for the most part it is............... no money, but currency is plentiful, and so is for at least a week, an expectation of responsibility for one's own behavior and outcomes.................... sadly, most of you can't envision that for yourselves or others...................... so make some fun of ellipses, post a phony statistic...................and revel in your empathy I'll see ya there next year..........................and yeah, I'll still have a lot of nice booze..............it was a good year..........even after taxes Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:40:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b1b758f7-fae9-4d79-957f-97d3a4daa4b4 glennzzz 2007-11-15T20:40:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#83557d13-ace7-49c4-a5cd-22389d69443a glenzzz: I find it difficult to believe. The guy at the helm must have been impaired. And here's another thought for you. Somebody NEEDS to go around the bridge pier with some sort of acoustic sonar device to make DAMN sure that there are no cracks propagating towards the center. If the salt water gets in and starts turning the concrete to jelly, then Caltrans is going to have a huge friggin' disaster on their hands in a few years. I'm sure they've thought about it, but still I hope that there's no loss of pier integrity. Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:15:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#83557d13-ace7-49c4-a5cd-22389d69443a Rhino 2007-11-13T21:15:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2dbcd657-01e5-4e55-8d38-fe2ea6d5ec2b First, I never said anything about black people or affirmative action, YOU did. We were talking about the poor and poverty, and you were the one that made the generalization equating those people with black people. Second, yes I read the bible (which is why I am an atheist) and Jesus as a ruler, which is what he implied his second coming would entail, would be, politically, somewhere left of Lenin. Third, lets allow for the interpretation that charity as directed by Jesus, was completely an individual thing. Somehow, I don't picture you, when approached in San Francisco by a homeless person asking for money (also known as "the least of your brethren",) make it a practice of doing unto them in the same fashion as if you were approached by Jesus Himself. Face it, there is no such thing as a Right-Wing Christian fundamentalist. You are either right-wing or a fundamentalist who follows the teachings of Christ to the letter; you can not be both as it is a contradiction of terms. What you CAN be, and many such as you are, is a Right-Wing Christian revisionist, who cherry-picks those teachings in the Bible that are easy or that bolster the beliefs that they already have, while ignoring the rest. Finally, I am not a fan of affirmative action, but until a better solution comes around that counters the social inequities that black people face (and they do still exist, go here for an example: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml) I will support it. Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:39:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2dbcd657-01e5-4e55-8d38-fe2ea6d5ec2b Jeremy 2007-11-13T20:39:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#31b36aae-92c5-493b-bdca-b3b2fb68398e Oh, I get it now! Glennz is a performance art piece, like Zsu-Zsu, an art piece depicting an over-the-top one-note personality! Funny! Funny! Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:49:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#31b36aae-92c5-493b-bdca-b3b2fb68398e $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-13T00:49:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#82cd8a11-3ff8-4ffd-9002-32bdf7e8bacc of course I went naked.......... and dangled my participle...... Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:16:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#82cd8a11-3ff8-4ffd-9002-32bdf7e8bacc glennzzz 2007-11-13T00:16:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b698063c-5123-4506-bf26-910245ca07d6 They all wore whigs Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:10:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b698063c-5123-4506-bf26-910245ca07d6 Mitch 2007-11-13T00:10:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#70cbf68c-c719-42a2-92b1-724d59360278 zzz... Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:40:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#70cbf68c-c719-42a2-92b1-724d59360278 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-12T23:40:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#17e0f237-59f1-44b8-8572-8be27e956934 LOL I think I just dangled a particple! LOL Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:12:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#17e0f237-59f1-44b8-8572-8be27e956934 ♪James 2007-11-12T23:12:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e749996c-065e-4f92-88e9-d4bb6629d99f 'Cause some of them there hot springs are clothing optional. My only concern now is if you saw some naked black dude's gigantic peepee at said clothing-optional hot springs & were somehow Freudianly traumatized. Hell I would be. But remember, it could've just been luck that made it colossal. Not because he was black, necessarily. Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:11:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e749996c-065e-4f92-88e9-d4bb6629d99f ♪James 2007-11-12T23:11:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#db885a7c-da79-4f74-920e-b5b779980c2c glenzzz more importantly did you show your peepee when you were at the hot springs? Did you flash tallywacker? *carefully counts the "z"s that he typed* Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:08:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#db885a7c-da79-4f74-920e-b5b779980c2c ♪James 2007-11-12T23:08:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1166069e-eaf2-4ab1-89cd-97ae429ebdd4 Lord, was away at the hippie hot springs all weekend............I see Jeremy has been playing with his college books again....and apparently reading biblical texts that say the government should take from this man and give to that man.....................whilst another white hippie thinks blacks need preferential treatment.......... or in plainer speak if you don't think blacks are kind of stupid and need preferential treatment you're a racist. The same people that believe this would have you believe Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell are dumb........... promise to get back to ya........ Hey Rhino, can you believe that ship hit the biggest damn thing in the bay Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:06:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1166069e-eaf2-4ab1-89cd-97ae429ebdd4 glennzzz 2007-11-12T23:06:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fb438afa-512b-4c57-8e9a-52a1a7ff7618 Ah, Loki, but you will be assimilated......resistance is futile. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:52:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fb438afa-512b-4c57-8e9a-52a1a7ff7618 Rhino 2007-11-11T18:52:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fd5b064b-8462-4675-8fbc-43618a20790a Make that one in three Americans.... Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:13:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fd5b064b-8462-4675-8fbc-43618a20790a Diode 2007-11-11T17:13:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9aa98bc2-2f19-4b57-9cd3-ade8846af905 Bingo Loki. I mean, for God's sake, Lincoln was a Republican. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:50:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9aa98bc2-2f19-4b57-9cd3-ade8846af905 Jeremy 2007-11-11T07:50:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#03d4bc84-9a02-486b-a68e-d67772f43e4c Actually, that is a rather Republican interpretation of the passage. When you put it in the context of the teachings of Jesus, it is pretty clear that he was talking about an actual needle. I mean really, do you think that He was saying that it was a just a little difficult? Similies such as that are generally meant to prove a point. One does not use hyperbole to demonstrate slight differences. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:48:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#03d4bc84-9a02-486b-a68e-d67772f43e4c Jeremy 2007-11-11T07:48:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#217945df-670b-40cd-a65d-92eff0e92d7e I have to say that the care I recieved in the Austrian hospital was excellent. Ditto the private hospital here. The Summit hospital? Dear god, I could have died and no one would have noticed. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:14:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#217945df-670b-40cd-a65d-92eff0e92d7e Crypto 2007-11-11T05:14:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0e0d6dc5-59f5-42ed-8c58-48ca446b3af9 Well Glennzzz you seem to have some real hostility issues. Maybe someone here will take you up on your rants. Calling people hippies and mindless burners is hardly an intellectual argument. I see one of your pet peeves is the desire to have the government be the primary health care provider. But that's inaccurate. No one wants the government to provide health care, they want the government to be the primary insurer, the one that defines the medical playing field as being for the benefit of the recipients, not the fucking insurance agencies who make profits off denying care. It's the totally most ass-backward system on the planet. Every other advanced country has better health care than the US. People live longer, the babies are born healthier. One in 6 Americans in the past year went uninsured. 14% of the GNP goes to health care and 30% of that is for the insurance blood-suckers. The most rational thing to do would be to extend Medicare coverage to all Americans and make people pay for it. Giant corporations are noncompetitive because very competitive foreign industries have lesser health care burdens. The Republican party just extended the drug benefit for Medicare. Care to make an argument that Medicare should be revoked? You and at least 10 or twenty other ideologues could probably find common ground there. Everyone else wants to keep their health and not lose their ass(ets) if they should fall ill. Let's hear an argument for denying health care to sick people in need. Should be an interesting post. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:35:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0e0d6dc5-59f5-42ed-8c58-48ca446b3af9 Diode 2007-11-11T04:35:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bb499f36-52be-4c2c-8ea4-1defca92a929 "The Eye of a Needle" is apparently a gate into Jeruselum, too small for a loaded camel to walk through. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 03:03:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bb499f36-52be-4c2c-8ea4-1defca92a929 Crypto 2007-11-11T03:03:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#aa7f08e0-3688-494a-a04f-26f34e200953 Far more insane, to me, are Republicans who *aren't* Born Again Christians, that disavow Christianity completely. What are they thinking? "Oh, a throwback ineducable theocracy won't affect *me*"...? Republicans that *still* profess Republicanism, in general, totally confuse me. If you're really a Republican - if you believe in what the Republican party ideal has historically been - you'll stop being one, pronto. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:59:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#aa7f08e0-3688-494a-a04f-26f34e200953 Lokifreign 2007-11-11T02:59:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#88b7a74e-b8b9-4eb7-bdb3-dd12fcd050f1 OOPS! I didn't notice you were attempting to quote the Preamble of the Constitution which actually reads: "We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" With the social safety net programs, we ARE ensuring domestic tranquility, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for our selves and our posterity. Two quotes of Christ: "Give up all of your possessions and follow me" "Easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" Perhaps you should find another religion to follow, Christianity seems to be antithetical to your views. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 03:00:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#88b7a74e-b8b9-4eb7-bdb3-dd12fcd050f1 Jeremy 2007-11-11T03:00:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#489b1610-bb2a-4e7e-bb83-74e620059dd2 HAH!!!! YOU think of yourself as a CHRISTIAN!!!! HAVE YOU READ ANY OF THAT BOOK YOU PRETEND TO FOLLOW? Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:48:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#489b1610-bb2a-4e7e-bb83-74e620059dd2 Jeremy 2007-11-11T02:48:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b280d956-79e7-47ca-bd00-8f98ce660a14 I also find it particularly ironic that most republicans claim to be Christians while still holding the anti-social program views. Hello? Anyone ever hard of Mathew 25, ie The Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus said "what you do unto these, the least of your brothers and sisters, you do unto me." Also, they tend to be BIG supporters of the death penalty, which, considering how the man died, I think it is pretty obvious what side of that issue Christ would come out on. But then again, neither of these obvious truths tell them whom to hate, so they can be discarded. Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:41:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b280d956-79e7-47ca-bd00-8f98ce660a14 Jeremy 2007-11-11T02:41:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cc181973-c75f-4da8-917f-c994e7362ca0 >>You don't have to be good inside to realize that establishing a minimum standard of living conditions protects everyone.<< ~by Anonymous Genius Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:38:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cc181973-c75f-4da8-917f-c994e7362ca0 Lokifreign 2007-11-11T00:38:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a5e9ea24-ef73-4d08-bbc3-4cfe01ab3c43 I find Clarence Thomas being held up as a role model particularly ironic since he insists that affirmative action is unnecessary and evil even after he used and benefited from it. Bleech. Has anyone here read "The Nine," by Jeff Toobin? Good stuff. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:29:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a5e9ea24-ef73-4d08-bbc3-4cfe01ab3c43 MdJGutie 2007-11-10T23:29:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ba62d9d7-5ba7-48a8-b324-4eac2516f313 >>You take it as a given the fact that a heartless republican wants certain levels of poverty.<< Not a bit of it. I observe, quite keenly, that fake-republicans pretend that poverty can somehow be eliminated by not wanting it - which is, of course, absurd and foolish. It is understandable, though, that such ideas are essentially just a slothful expression of a desire to be freed from the responsibility to one's fellows that society necessarily entails. You accuse me of "knee jerking" (and being a "burner" - fightin' words, G) but you seem to have difficulty understanding text, and certainly seem to have an involuntary response to being accurately pegged. I know you're intelligent enough to understand more than a few sentences taken at once ("How can you know such a thing?" you may ask - well, you have a suit on in your avatar, which means you are necessarily more intelligent than all the people in diapers and sarongs that failed to agree with your weak premise and blathering inchoate attempts to vilify people with human souls - correct?); so, go back and respond to the paragraphs I gave you so generously, instead of jerking your knee at ideas you hiked, whole cloth, out of your own alimentary canal. Please, do read slowly, and comment only when you have digested meaning fully. Get back to me when the booze wears off. I look forward to it. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:12:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ba62d9d7-5ba7-48a8-b324-4eac2516f313 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T23:12:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ffcab6a4-d138-4626-91ff-406ec44a7960 Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas. Role models, holy shit! Who's next, Ann Coulter as an inspiration to young white women. Geez. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:30:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ffcab6a4-d138-4626-91ff-406ec44a7960 Kurt 2007-11-10T22:30:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#afb5719c-3e54-4f82-a923-eb6cdd637434 As to the indicator, here is my evidence cited from the Northwest Regional Center Education Lab that tells WHY children of low socioeconomic class do dot do as well as their higher status counterparts. "A family's socioeconomic status is based on family income, parental education level, parental occupation, and social status in the community (such as contacts within the community, group associations, and the community's perception of the family), note Demarest, Reisner, Anderson, Humphrey, Farquhar, and Stein (1993). Families with high socioeconomic status often have more success in preparing their young children for school because they typically have access to a wide range of resources to promote and support young children's development. They are able to provide their young children with high-quality child care, books, and toys to encourage children in various learning activities at home. Also, they have easy access to information regarding their children's health, as well as social, emotional, and cognitive development. In addition, families with high socioeconomic status often seek out information to help them better prepare their young children for school. Crnic and Lamberty (1994) discuss the impact of socioeconomic status on children's readiness for school: "The segregating nature of social class, ethnicity, and race may well reduce the variety of enriching experiences thought to be prerequisite for creating readiness to learn among children. Social class, ethnicity, and race entail a set of 'contextual givens' that dictate neighborhood, housing, and access to resources that affect enrichment or deprivation as well as the acquisition of specific value systems." Ramey and Ramey (1994) describe the relationship of family socioeconomic status to children's readiness for school: "Across all socioeconomic groups, parents face major challenges when it comes to providing optimal care and education for their children. For families in poverty, these challenges can be formidable. Sometimes, when basic necessities are lacking, parents must place top priority on housing, food, clothing, and health care. Educational toys, games, and books may appear to be luxuries, and parents may not have the time, energy, or knowledge to find innovative and less-expensive ways to foster young children's development. Even in families with above-average incomes, parents often lack the time and energy to invest fully in their children's preparation for school, and they sometimes face a limited array of options for high-quality child care--both before their children start school and during the early school years. Kindergarten teachers throughout the country report that children are increasingly arriving at school inadequately prepared." (p. 195) Families with low socioeconomic status often lack the financial, social, and educational supports that characterize families with high socioeconomic status. Poor families also may have inadequate or limited access to community resources that promote and support children's development and school readiness. Parents may have inadequate skills for such activities as reading to and with their children, and they may lack information about childhood immunizations and nutrition. Zill, Collins, West, and Hausken (1995) state that "low maternal education and minority-language status are most consistently associated with fewer signs of emerging literacy and a greater number of difficulties in preschoolers." Having inadequate resources and limited access to available resources can negatively affect families' decisions regarding their young children's development and learning. As a result, children from families with low socioeconomic status are at greater risk of entering kindergarten unprepared than their peers from families with median or high socioeconomic status." I will cover the rest later when I have more time, but In the meantime, tell me once again why corporate welfare does not offend you but social welfare does? I seem to have missed the part where you addressed that. BTW, I am 35 years old and strangely enough no one has ever called me a hippie before. As a final note, you call me a racist because of my stance on New Orleans when I never brought up race at all, when you just said that blacks are poor because they make poor choices; ie society or class has nothing to do with it. You are basically calling them morally inferior, then covering it by siting a couple of rare exceptions. Interesting, if tortured logic, that. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:24:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#afb5719c-3e54-4f82-a923-eb6cdd637434 Jeremy 2007-11-10T21:24:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1442dddd-e6b8-41bb-99cb-cf96bd33f434 Glen's a one-trick pony. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:17:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1442dddd-e6b8-41bb-99cb-cf96bd33f434 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-10T19:17:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#eebf2a34-3c7a-4a59-9d0e-499cbbf536f2 Yes. Using them at the start of a sentence is an interesting variation... Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:01:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#eebf2a34-3c7a-4a59-9d0e-499cbbf536f2 MdJGutie 2007-11-10T19:01:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f18c0998-6207-4e18-aa30-805b80f9c8dc ...Are you still going on about that? We've all moved on to a much more interesting discussion on punctuation. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:52:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f18c0998-6207-4e18-aa30-805b80f9c8dc Pikey 2007-11-10T18:52:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ab607396-8997-4d63-8121-98d0e2b39548 Loki You take it as a given the fact that a heartless republican wants certain levels of poverty. Again, you are having a kneejerk reaction and not thinking the issue through. Perhaps when looking at a city like New Orleans a reasonable person might conclude that the programs that had comsumed tens of billions of dollars in that city weren't working. Get that, they weren't working at all..................... So instead of more calls from the mindless burners to keep doing more of the same........... the kinder gentler souls wish for something that might produce better results.............. oh, and get the fucking government out of it. Fucking typical burner, will rant for days upon days that they don't want the government in their bedroom, spying on them, telling them who they can blow, what they can smoke blah blah blah, But then they want the government to be the primary bread winner for millions, the primary healthcare provider for everyone........... this is critical thinking.......... So Ok............calling all burners without a coherent thought........it is again, TIME TO NAMECALL Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:49:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ab607396-8997-4d63-8121-98d0e2b39548 glennzzz 2007-11-10T17:49:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b4227a5c-2589-4a26-a4f3-3422cd194fb3 Mine's named "Aigu" Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:33:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b4227a5c-2589-4a26-a4f3-3422cd194fb3 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T17:33:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ea2321fe-3e91-483d-8d9f-b90d47bb1505 I knew you were one of us. All that talk of "purity" has put a violent fear in me, though. First the "purity" talk, then the pogroms, then the war machines.............................. ¡...........>>RESIST<<...........¡ Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:32:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ea2321fe-3e91-483d-8d9f-b90d47bb1505 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T17:32:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#953fb8de-b5d7-43cf-a4c8-44a655df4eda And I must confess I lied earlier. I also use elipses as a "this is a joke" cue. And what I do with colons is so perverse, that it cannot be discussed in a family thread. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:27:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#953fb8de-b5d7-43cf-a4c8-44a655df4eda Crypto 2007-11-10T15:27:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81ef5e95-a3da-4c27-945a-23bcd849d126 "My name is grouchosuave... And I'm an ellipses abuser... I haven't used and ellipsis in... let's see... the last two seconds. Finally, this thread gets interesting. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:07:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#81ef5e95-a3da-4c27-945a-23bcd849d126 grouchosuave 2007-11-10T14:07:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#74d5b12d-4ec2-4387-a8b5-be4cbdeeddc8 "elipsists " Pffftffft. That's what I say to your trying to make me ashamed of my taking a stand on behalf of elliptical purity. Hooray for elleipein elegance and economy! Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:17:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#74d5b12d-4ec2-4387-a8b5-be4cbdeeddc8 MdJGutie 2007-11-10T09:17:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2fcce03b-638a-4a4c-bf7b-973150122050 Maybe I should rename my blog "Diacritical Remarks." Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:01:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2fcce03b-638a-4a4c-bf7b-973150122050 Crypto 2007-11-10T09:01:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#90201610-f3f6-4327-b7bc-3304060ef509 elipsists Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:55:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#90201610-f3f6-4327-b7bc-3304060ef509 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T08:55:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#00830e65-2807-45c1-bd57-00ff96e6640e ahhh the old "I didn't mean to" ploy. You're a mastermind. You can't trick me, though. "Haceks" indeed. I'll figure it out. You just wait. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:54:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#00830e65-2807-45c1-bd57-00ff96e6640e Lokifreign 2007-11-10T08:54:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fe4d8d0c-e9d3-4bcd-a23b-4ea3ed256c9c that's very flattering, but my brain just don't process spelling very well. I lost my German spelling, which was better in ways, because the langauge is much more phonetic, but 20 years away from it didn't help. Love the Czech alphabet, because of the logic in the way the haceks work, but well, I was pleased to be able to "Dobry den" the nice people in Prague, that;s all I have of the language. (Learn those words, even if nothing else if you're going to the czech republic, it's amazing how pleased they are. Not burnt out on tourists yet.) My spelling is so bad, that even when I know I've misspelled a word, attempts to correct only stray further from the recognized english spelling. I do love it when I put the wrong word and get an unexpected meaning though, so at least I'm autoamusing. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:31:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#fe4d8d0c-e9d3-4bcd-a23b-4ea3ed256c9c Crypto 2007-11-10T08:31:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#05c13ef3-d70e-4ac0-a32a-d288357b6f8e I agree completely. Three dots is sufficient. If that's not enough to get the point across, then you need better words. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:24:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#05c13ef3-d70e-4ac0-a32a-d288357b6f8e MdJGutie 2007-11-10T08:24:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#442680b9-ae65-4eb4-9ea2-0d11b5f7f6f7 I could see clever misspellings as a way of hypnotically conveying intent. BUT THAT WOULD BE VILLAINY. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:03:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#442680b9-ae65-4eb4-9ea2-0d11b5f7f6f7 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T08:03:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9b0fb14e-69a5-48ff-81d3-c487668cc1f7 I like elipses. I often use them as a sort of challenge, I suppose. "Fill in the blank" or "you can take it from here." I tend to prefer to let people think things through for themselves, rather than just handing them a silver platter. When I'm showing off, I do it differently. I've also learned over the years that the things I like about my posts/prose, ain't necessarily what other people will. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:55:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#9b0fb14e-69a5-48ff-81d3-c487668cc1f7 Crypto 2007-11-10T07:55:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1933d867-0176-4ecc-98bc-4332ca6dbf1d *raises eyebrow* It's a dramatic device as much as anything else. A shorthand way of describing that pregnant pause where one is searching for quite the right word to say, indicative of a certain... delicacy. Or sometimes, *sometimes*, it is used to indicate a trailing off of speech at the end of a sentance.... Teh intrawebs is notorious for not carrying a lot of subtext found in actual verbal language. One could use emoticons to help convey that information, but I find them nauseatingly cute. I use ellipses (and frequently make asides with parens). I try not to abuse punctuation, except when being blatantly sarcastic!!!111!!1eleventy! Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:51:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1933d867-0176-4ecc-98bc-4332ca6dbf1d Pikey 2007-11-10T07:51:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#306503a5-a215-4b62-ba29-e0d138fbc92b Sorry, outside my range of talent. I do some knee-slapping misspellings though. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:36:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#306503a5-a215-4b62-ba29-e0d138fbc92b Crypto 2007-11-10T07:36:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#297f5ae9-1c19-4f95-a168-f14a771f8f95 oh, come on. Say something challenging. Make me think. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:34:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#297f5ae9-1c19-4f95-a168-f14a771f8f95 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T07:34:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#dcde6c56-483b-4d49-b61b-f6914d87ba3e Off topic: This is an ellipsis: "..." In general, it denotes an omit when quoting text, as in "Four score...form a more perfect union" . It has also commonly come to mean "what I'm typing here in this meaningless online forum is so awesome that you, the reader, should pause to reflect... UPON MY AWESOMENESS!"; and I am totally cool with that. I do it myself, but generally using a hyphen. Also off topic. I aplogize. In any case, I honor the intent of the writer- I mean poster. Sorry. So when I see an ellipsis I'm like "hooo-ah, let me digest that awesomeness" and I do take a pause. However, I care so much that I honor each ellipsis the poster cares enough to provide. Unfortunately, though, some people (and I won't name online fake names here) choose to feel that they are so awesome that they need to stack multiple ellipses, which seems to request of me a 90 second pause for reflection, which, I hate to say, has not in my opinion been earned by the many statements either followed or preceded by (please not that the following is presented for demonstration purposes only, I do not expect any pause in the slightest from you, dear reader) "....................................". Twelve fricking ellipses? Really? Are you asking us to parse your statement for as long as it takes to make a cup of coffee, or are you taking that time to think of something to say and pressing the period key once a minute while the wheels turn? Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:05:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#dcde6c56-483b-4d49-b61b-f6914d87ba3e ernest™ 2.0 2007-11-10T07:05:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7888421e-f6ae-4b56-a5a9-e61c637c6aeb A simpler way, I suppose, of stating my point is that altruism is logical, and is a part of informed self-interest. You don't have to be good inside to realize that establishing a minimum standard of living conditions protects everyone. So, M'sieu Corpie Republican guy can be a heartless fuck AND establish a limit to poverty - with the power of self-interest. Empathy - though divine and certainly desirable - isn't required, just intelligence and a willingness to be logical instead of emotional (esp. if an individual's emotional spectra are sucky and grinchly). It's hard for some professing conservatives to think it all the way through, I guess, for the same reason so many of their counterparts have been trained to think of "liberal governance" as automatically good: repetition, identification with prepackaged concepts and social groups, and idolatry. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:40:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#7888421e-f6ae-4b56-a5a9-e61c637c6aeb Lokifreign 2007-11-10T06:40:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#50d39771-a7cf-4c27-9439-76db8951524f Oh Lordy Jeremy has his new degree/indoctrination and he is ready to go out and solve...........the problems....... the number 1 indicator or whether or not children will live in poverty is related to whether the kid has two parents in the house............look it up man.............read city journal............read something.......... You want to go back to New Orleans again.........a city which probably had more dollars pumped into it in the form of entitlements than any other city in america............democratic leadership a constant for the last 70 odd years..............it should have been a fucking utopia........but same old story. And the same old solution from you............mo money, they only need mo money The fact that you made the story one of good and evil Jeremy means that you're not thinking here..........you're villifying........and I'm not sure if that means you're a contrarian and you want to win this particular argument.......or that you're just empty. The reality in America today is that if you're lucky enough to have two parents in the house then you have a pretty good start in life.... If you just make it thru high school work a job any job to start stay off drugs...... chances are you're going to have a pretty nice life............ The thing that was incredibly consistent about certain areas of New Orleans was in fact the poor choices made. Incredibly high rates of single parent family units, thusly children in poverty incredibly poor graduation rates incredibly high unemployment rates among teens and adults incredibly high rates of drug addiction, alcohol abuse, and incarceration....... Yeah, those are choices buddy. And before you take Your Lilly White Hippie Racist bullshit that blacks can't make it without help from racist white hippie help........go read a few books by thomas sowell, walter williams..............or maybe Clarence Thomas........... The fact you went from New Orleans to Enron makes me think you have hippie flight of ideas......... Now Class.........all together..... Radical Self Reliance...................you hippies are on to something REALLY? Fascinating, but I would LOVE to see where you got the statistic about parents being married being the main indicator of future socioecconomic status. With the divorce rate at 50%, there MUST be MILLIONS of children of rich parents who are now poor! As to New Orleans, you are, once again, stating that those who are poor are those who engage in bad behavior. You are also implying that, if you were born and raised in the 9th Ward, you would be in exactly the same situation, due to your inherent superiority. The rich are all, apparently, noble and hardworking while the poor are, by their status, degenerates by your logic. I think that there is AMPLE evidence that that logic is flawed. Evidence such as the S&L scandals of the 80's that cost this country 2 TRILLION dollars. Evidence like the Enron, Tyco, etc scandals that also cost American Taxpayers billions. You however, being a rabid classist, refuse to see that just those 2 episodes in American history were FAR more expensive than the social programs you so vilify. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 05:56:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#50d39771-a7cf-4c27-9439-76db8951524f glennzzz 2007-11-10T05:56:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e1c9365f-fdff-4e91-a110-cb5abc48e7a8 I just went back and reread the original post, and was struck by a sudden thought. ...Why is empathy considered a cop out? It's like, the only answer you'll accept is one that relies on naked self-interest... Sat, 10 Nov 2007 05:55:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e1c9365f-fdff-4e91-a110-cb5abc48e7a8 Pikey 2007-11-10T05:55:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cc99ca44-c712-4fff-a3ff-e4baa7bf37a3 And the playa is a relatively small subset of society at large. People with NO CASH generally don't have the wherewithal to make it out to the desert in the first place. This is a group of peole who can generally *afford* to take a vacation. This group also self-selects for health - if you're suffering from cancer, about to give birth, or just had a bypass operation, you probably don't go out there. But in the default world you find those people, and many of them have trouble coping with their illnesses. (There's a considerable number of employers who don't offer health insurance, if you hadn't noticed. It gets prohibitively expensive.) Sat, 10 Nov 2007 05:52:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#cc99ca44-c712-4fff-a3ff-e4baa7bf37a3 Pikey 2007-11-10T05:52:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#96b27439-b28f-4af4-9e56-382c71fe96ee Well, might as well respond to this since it keeps getting bumped up. <Flame away ...maybe the first truly intellectual string..................> First off, you really are an arrogant know-nothing loftard claiming you've come up with the only "intellectual" thread. Really, it's pretty amazing (amazingly stupid), even for you. That's about the only thing you said that was flameworthy. <How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron.............. > Well, the short answer - aside from the fact that the vast majority of us do not "live our lives" around the event - is probably that we know the difference between the socioeconomic conditions of one week at Burning Man are quite different than those of the rest of the world, and aren't living in a fantasy conforming to the Wall Street Journal's editorial page. I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority (but by NO means all) of Burners are left-libertarians. We think the government shouldn't be involved in people's personal lives, regulating activities adults choose to engage in that don't in any way affect other people. We are self-reliant in that we need no church or state to regulate personal morality. This is of course antithetical to the platform of the modern religous fundamentalist-dominated GOP. Also, while the regognized goal of Radical Self Reliance is to show up on the playa prepared with everything you need and desire for the week, I think it's again safe to say that most of us recognize that you DON'T get to prepare in advance when beginning your journey in the rest of the world, and that people are born into wildly different circumstances of privilege or lack of same that they have no control over. And, as its been pointed out, there is a minimal safety net at Burning Man - the LLC isn't going to let anyone die of thirst, and people who are injured (but not enough to have to leave the event) or sick can get medical attention FOR FREE at the Medical tent in Center Camp. I think only the very small minded can't reconcile the goal of Radical Self Reliance while at the same time realizing that shit happens and it's better to have a structure in place to help those who end up needing it than not to do so. Also, there are some bigger questions about the nature of liberty. it seems like for most right-leaning libertarians, their main vision of liberty is to be able to make as much money as they can as free from interferance of any sort as possible. however, the left-liberarian believes that their are other freedoms more important than the freedom to amass wealth. For instance, I believe I have the rgiht to breathe clean air that won't damage my health, and given the current level of technology, the only way to ensure that are laws that regulate air quality. Likewise, any REAL libertarian should agree that people have the right to decide what kind of food they think is healthy and what they want to eat, but again that requires laws that force food manufacturers to accurately label what they put into their products. Right now, Americans don't get to choose whether they eat genetically modified ingredients or not, because companies aren't required to say that they include them - in Europe, such labelling IS required, and surprise surprise, many many people choose not to buy such products. Oops, gotta run. I think that gets my basic POV across though. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:30:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#96b27439-b28f-4af4-9e56-382c71fe96ee Kelly 2007-11-10T04:30:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e4d56001-b974-44f5-9dc4-a47debb90765 I haven't read all the posts, so this may be reiteration. Being a liberal thinker is not solely confined to government assistance programs. It involves views on all aspects in life, including the right to choice, views on the war, views on big business, and marriage equality. These are the reasons I vote liberal. conservatives are just that, conservative. Not my thing, but I'm not gonna harsh them. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:45:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#e4d56001-b974-44f5-9dc4-a47debb90765 Jerrod 2007-11-10T03:45:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#94cd39be-2fa9-4e29-89c8-f2387577d179 <We the people in order to establish........said what it said. What do you think it said....? I don't read that the government is a safety net, I think the specific responsibilities are spelled out and nowhere did it say take a buck from this man and give it to that man. In that way the founders were engaging in a bit of radical self reliance...? > Hey Glenn, I know you probably didn't actually read the Constitution past the first few words, but if you take a second to recall the tune from Schoolhouse Rock you'll remember that one of the declared purposes of the government is to "Promote the General Welfare". Now, obviously the best method of doing so is a matter of eternal debate, but I think it's safe to say that things like creating a social safety net and preventing the concentration of wealth (and therefore power) into the hands of a tiny elite fall into that definition rather easily, while promoting the "Fuck you, I got mine/ Every man for himself" style capitalism so popular among the right rather doesn't. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:17:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#94cd39be-2fa9-4e29-89c8-f2387577d179 Kelly 2007-11-10T03:17:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#00b0a314-2c4a-409e-a309-cb04505f0cd9 If you can't see the benefit of raising the standard of living for the most desperate - no matter how "unfair" it might seem to hand someone sufficient food and a roof when others do the monumentally dreadful work of pushing a pencil for a living - then you aren't really all that self-interested so much as just irrationally selfish. No? Making sure no one is fucked enough to be able to say "I had no other choice but to hit granny over the head" is a way of preserving what we worked hard to accumulate. The other option is gunning down anyone who falls below a certain income level. VOTE: gun down the poor: yes or no? (Check out my Bring the Brain thread - the radical self-expressers are afraid of it) Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:36:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#00b0a314-2c4a-409e-a309-cb04505f0cd9 Lokifreign 2007-11-10T02:36:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b1b56842-788e-469b-90ec-cab7e34db652 So, the fact that she sites herself as a case study of hour flawed logic is dismissed as a "pity party" and not a valid and personal counter-argument. I would LOVE to hear your story of overcoming hardship that justifies your belief in your own superiority, but somehow I am quite sure that you lived a life of comfort and privilege and have no such story to share. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:15:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b1b56842-788e-469b-90ec-cab7e34db652 Jeremy 2007-11-10T02:15:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ff9b85d0-8fe9-475e-acab-2cb62ae849a0 REALLY? Fascinating, but I would LOVE to see where you got the statistic about parents being married being the main indicator of future socioecconomic status. With the divorce rate at 50%, there MUST be MILLIONS of children of rich parents who are now poor! As to New Orleans, you are, once again, stating that those who are poor are those who engage in bad behavior. You are also implying that, if you were born and raised in the 9th Ward, you would be in exactly the same situation, due to your inherent superiority. The rich are all, apparently, noble and hardworking while the poor are, by their status, degenerates by your logic. I think that there is AMPLE evidence that that logic is flawed. Evidence such as the S&L scandals of the 80's that cost this country 2 TRILLION dollars. Evidence like the Enron, Tyco, etc scandals that also cost American Taxpayers billions. You however, being a rabid classist, refuse to see that just those 2 episodes in American history were FAR more expensive than the social programs you so vilify. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:09:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ff9b85d0-8fe9-475e-acab-2cb62ae849a0 Jeremy 2007-11-10T02:09:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#49248a99-38a1-4870-9906-633892966260 Now the question is, oh Asshole Pope I adore, have I made cardinal status yet in the Church of the Dyslexic, where Dog is real? Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:15:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#49248a99-38a1-4870-9906-633892966260 Rhino 2007-11-09T16:15:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54742a74-b4f0-4e79-9ca2-ffe3a3b83796 Me too. Me fucking too. Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:00:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54742a74-b4f0-4e79-9ca2-ffe3a3b83796 Crypto 2007-11-09T16:00:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a4be045d-b921-443f-9156-2513b371216d You're SO right about Crypto.....she has this tendency to make others feel at home, and then she doesn't sugarcoat anything....no bullshit...just how it is. I also am glad she's here. Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:58:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a4be045d-b921-443f-9156-2513b371216d Rhino 2007-11-09T15:58:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#63589d78-04a6-4535-8cdf-433bc5016158 Loving the Crypto Fish right about now... I'm so glad you're here. Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:34:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#63589d78-04a6-4535-8cdf-433bc5016158 MdJGutie 2007-11-09T15:34:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#71c2a38d-3327-4f50-9149-ed294065089a Hmmm....radical self-reliance? I'm of the belief it has to be 24/7, 365 days/year to make any sense. Living the principles isn't too hard if you adapt a little. This fact struck home a couple of weeks ago down in Joplin, Missouri when I was staying overnight at a hotel that lost its power about 10 in the evening. Why bitch over something that you and the hotel both have absolutely no control over? I sat in the darkened room for a moment....what was I going to do? I could "avoid the problem" and just go to bed. Face the problem like a wimp, check out, and go to the Best Western across the street (which had power, but I wasn't sure it had rooms left), or I could do the ol' adapt, overcome, improvise. Yeah. Adapt, overcome, improvise. 1st problem - light - where do I get it? Yeah - white screen the laptop, let it on battery power. Great. Coffeemaker doesn't work without power. Hmmm....hey, I've got those little metal film cans in the car......wonder if I can boil water in them using my Zippo, and then pour it through the filter, or better yet, turn the filter into a coffee bag, like a tea bag....and then make coffee for the a.m. like that. Great. I'm set. Phone still works, so that means that I can still get a wake up call. So, I went down to the get the film cans from the car. Stopped at the front desk.....found out what happened....the storm went through the area and hit a power substation....no power until tomorrow at the earliest.....no worries. Hey, what's this? They handed me a flashlight. Fresh batteries. Great. Now I can shave in the a.m. by lighting up the bathroom mirror. So I went to bed. Next a.m., they made the wake-up call by knocking at my door until I answered. Coffee worked like a charm. I told them to fax me the reciept for the night's stay when they got the power back. I had places to go. That's all radical self-reliance is......adapt, overcome, improvise. Work with and for others in the community. what's so hard about that year-round? Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:09:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#71c2a38d-3327-4f50-9149-ed294065089a Rhino 2007-11-09T14:09:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bb844ced-15c2-4e44-a092-b6a23eea905e Glen: You are far from a libertarian my friend. A Randian Objectivist maybe - believing that altruism is evil. It's just like Anarchy. I love the idea of it. I love the idea of radical self-reliance. But, as others have pointed out so well - I love the fact that my taxes are spent on sewage collection so I don't have to dispose of my own waste and can think about other issues. Alice makes the argument very well - compassion is self-interest. The metaphor is cancer. If you ignore the problems in your midst, they will only get worse. And prison is a very expensive solution. It costs roughly 22,000 a year to care for your average prisoner. And, the prison population, like the general population, is aging. The average cost per year to care for an elderly prisoner? $70,000 And the other thing that you miss is that interdependence breeds wealth, not .independence. Interdependence allows for specialization. That means I don't have grow my own food, or sew my own clothes, or drill my own well, etc. And as romantic as those notions are, I can assure you, it is no fun to live like that - my folks were homesteaders when I was kid. Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:17:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#bb844ced-15c2-4e44-a092-b6a23eea905e cruzzin 2007-11-09T09:17:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d91cddbc-75ac-43a2-8abc-d13ee7141536 glenn: > How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron I see the contradiction. If you're providing a massive safety net, and fully taking care of pepole, then you're not teaching them to be self-reliant - or perhaps not even allowing them to be self-reliant. But what of people who are somehow _incapable_ of being self-reliant? I, as a liberal, don't want to count on chance that some random person will be generous enough to take care of those who are incapable of being self-reliant. I think that it is the role of the government to help them out. Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:16:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#d91cddbc-75ac-43a2-8abc-d13ee7141536 Adam 2007-11-09T08:16:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#375c7cdb-4c17-4734-9649-9bc0f490c0a6 What a pleasure to read your piece. Wonderfully articulate and so very right on. Too bad the obvious is so often obscured with preconceptions and self image of super men or women. An illusion. Thank you for your thoughts M Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:27:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#375c7cdb-4c17-4734-9649-9bc0f490c0a6 Marty 2007-11-09T07:27:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a07f4b6d-3804-4f15-8b20-89267b42373e AMEN!!!!! Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:18:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#a07f4b6d-3804-4f15-8b20-89267b42373e Marty 2007-11-09T07:18:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#72ce1ca6-c5c2-4ae2-96ff-fb43fa7c2c9a Diode, fun post........ but nowhere did I say I love hanging around with progressive types, and the booze part wasn't plying. It was guys on holiday.................if I had gotten with the same group of lads on any other weekend we would have had a lot of booze and shared it freely.........and now.....that that's out of the way. As far as the political makeup of burning man.........you are correct, that was an educated guess and anything more sophisticated would simply not be worth the effort...........you're welcome to take a guess......I'm quite comfortable with the figure I tossed out with not much thought.... You equate the giving away of booze with that of a government entitlement...........which is about as much of a philosophical stretch as anyone could have come up with.........but suppose we are taking you serious here....... booze at burning man is for fun........ the act of giving away booze that we paid for ourselves, of our own free will............is simply a gift the government taking money from one man to pay for another mans housing, or healthcare is not a gift, nor is it charitable............some would call it a stretch of the governments authority, some would call it thievery, some in this forum would equate it to justice although I don't see it that way..... and finally, I do see it as oxymoronic that people who could/would be drawn to an event that is known for being radically self-reliant, and who further articulate that this event represents a better/finer society, would then leave this perfect world and then go seek a world based on views that border on socialism............ People that are unprepared for life, or the workplace die all the time. A government whose programs encourage decade after decade, generation after generation of people who are unprepared for life or the workplace is not doing its job, and it's not those people any justice...... If you don't see the contradiction then you don't want to see it.......... shhhhh look closer...........I don't think that everyone here is so attracted to Burningman because the main tenet of the event is only for a weekend............... you don't either, although I'm a contrarian too so I forgive ya radical self reliance......... Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:56:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#72ce1ca6-c5c2-4ae2-96ff-fb43fa7c2c9a glennzzz 2007-11-09T06:56:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#63073020-fbb4-4681-871f-61122c520b0d So Glenzzz, You are apparently a libertarian as compared to a conservative. You love hanging around with liberal progressives and give them charity or donations in the form of booze. You conflate a BM core value of Radical Self Reliance with the idea that 90% of the people there are liberal progressives. Got any proof of that figure? Don't use anecdotes or sophistry. Just the facts that drive you to that conclusion. Perhaps you were unaware that Radical Self Reliance refers to the act of survival camping in harsh conditions and cannot be directly mapped as a predictor any individual's political outlook. Your underlying framework seems to be that being self-reliant on a camping trip is somehow contradictory or hypocritical when that value is held by someone with other political values labeled liberal or progressive. Perhaps it would be more useful to examine your giving away free booze as an act of largesse, when enlarged into the political realm would mean your proclamations of being anti-government entitlement are nothing but hype. Perhaps you are really a closet liberal in the way that you give away your property to people who should really have brought their own liquor. Or do you only share your booze with other similarly economically well-off people? If so, that would make you more of a conservative, nyet? Finally, I'm puzzled by your use of the term 'oxymoron' since I find no oxymoron in this sentence: "How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron.............. " Perhaps you could explain to me where the figure of speech with apparently contradictory terms appears in conjunction. Perhaps you simply meant hypocritical. If so, you could have stated it thusly: "People who attend BM under the premise of Radical Self Reliance yet are overwhelmingly liberal and progressive in their outlooks are hypocrites." Your thesis would then have been more accurately stated. Finally I note that being Radically Self Reliant at BM is a core value because you could die if you aren't, same as if you could die if you stepped out of an airplane in flight without a parachute. Being unprepared for any challenging or potentially life threatening situation is a good way to die. Should I then conclude that if I make a point of being radically prepared, aka self-suffficient in my personal behavior that any political stance I may take encouraging the goverment to assist people in need is therefore hypocrisy. I see no such linkage that there is an inherent contradiction in those two behaviors. I am not stating my personal beliefs on the matter of government entitlement programs, only that your argument does not hold water. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:38:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#63073020-fbb4-4681-871f-61122c520b0d Diode 2007-11-08T22:38:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#65a4ce31-16d4-4816-8103-3233a101cd41 <<How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron.............. >> Conservatives or Neoconservatives outspend Progressives as a rule. "When the Republicans gained control of Congress in 1994, they promised to eliminate the deficit and reduce wasteful spending. For several years, the GOP partly upheld its commitment by modestly curtailing spending growth and balancing the budget. Unfortunately, the balanced budgets of the late 1990s created an "easy money" mindset in Congress, which began a spending spree that continues unabated today. Total federal outlays will rise 29 percent between fiscal years 2001 and 2005 according to the president's fiscal year 2005 budget released in February. Real discretionary spending increases in fiscal years 2002, 2003, and 2004 are three of the five biggest annual increases in the last 40 years. Large spending increases have been the principal cause of the government's return to massive budget deficits. Although defense spending has increased in response to the war on terrorism, President Bush has made little attempt to restrain nondefense spending to offset the higher Pentagon budget. Nondefense discretionary outlays will increase about 36 percent during President Bush's first term in office. Congress has failed to contain the administration's overspending and has added new spending of its own. Republicans have clearly forfeited any claim of being the fiscally responsible party in Washington. " Try again, Troll.... err, Glen. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:12:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#65a4ce31-16d4-4816-8103-3233a101cd41 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-08T19:12:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54485c33-edab-43ac-b097-bdc2121b643a You're always right about everything Glennzzz, and we'd have to be stupid, dishonest or lazy to disagree with you. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:58:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#54485c33-edab-43ac-b097-bdc2121b643a scalefree 2007-11-08T14:58:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#94b7a889-9627-4909-a649-f09496bec557 WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:53:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#94b7a889-9627-4909-a649-f09496bec557 Sa)'(nt 2007-11-08T14:53:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#31de9fed-6c1b-4428-bd32-4c5956131644 or was it Whigs? Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:02:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#31de9fed-6c1b-4428-bd32-4c5956131644 Miss Cheeky 2007-11-08T14:02:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#024dbc15-83db-41e6-be2f-e911a0b98d6c And Alice congragulations but this isn't a pity party for you, nor a condemnation.......it was a policy discussion. Making it all about you........was well..........something you chose to do......and taking umbrage was juvenile I'm glad you got your medication and you didn't spend your life in the system.......... Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:25:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#024dbc15-83db-41e6-be2f-e911a0b98d6c glennzzz 2007-11-08T07:25:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2d224c08-0eea-4e5e-a553-508255b21b73 Jeremy New Orleans had untold billions lavished upon it decade after decade.............failed, miserable social programs. And as I said before a government that attempts to remove the consequences from poor behavior.........well I don't need to finish that sentence. You guys sound like the teachers association................and I'm not beating up on teachers here.... but certain school districts, children show up unprepared, undisciplined.........spending ain't the problem. Don't believe me....see Oakland number 1 predictor of a kid growing up in poverty, guess what.....nothing to do wit the gubmint, are the parents married... Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:20:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#2d224c08-0eea-4e5e-a553-508255b21b73 glennzzz 2007-11-08T07:20:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#856ca64f-439d-4cdb-ae8e-45cbd3637a40 >>Unaf's post is too stupid to respond to<< As stupid as the original post. Imagine if someone had created a thread saying something like, "I cant believe some burners take a week in the desert to practice harmony and peace only to return to support an administration which believes in torture and starting wars under false pretenses?" Thu, 08 Nov 2007 06:58:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#856ca64f-439d-4cdb-ae8e-45cbd3637a40 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-08T06:58:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f4e01761-cb7c-4f5b-902c-9eddb0c20d7a Is that so? I used to be on SSI because of a crippling seizure disorder. If it wasn't for the SSI I would likely be dead. If it wasn't for the BOG grants I wouldn't have had any college. I now own a private company and am in the process of starting a second one that will be going public in about six months. I truly wonder how much personal experience you have with these programs. If you believe in them and give them opportunities most people will succeed. You, I think, are basing all of your opinions on preconceived notions and are not open to a point of view that comes from someone who has had more and different and likely more difficult life experiences than you. You think because I look young, because I was having so many god damn seizures that I do not have much sun damage, that I am naive. Go back to your bubble boy. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:44:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#f4e01761-cb7c-4f5b-902c-9eddb0c20d7a Alice 2007-11-08T00:44:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#59e87778-51df-4442-997f-2339dd2cad93 You worry about the market and the economy but you blame the poor for the problem when the clear evidence shows that the problems have nothing to do with them. Government spending on welfare and programs for the poor has decreased over the last few decades and the problems you speak of have gotten far worse, not better. In fact, it has been the cornerstone of the Republican agenda for years to drive up the debt so that they can say that the country can no longer afford these programs. As one who has his Bachelors in Criminal Justice, I can tell you that poverty and crime go hand in hand. There is NOT as you say "a lot more evidence that the programs you reference lead people into having illegitimate children, drug dealing, prostitution, robbery or burglary...............than there is evidence that they are hoisting themselves out.... ". In fact, crime wend down dramatically when FDR instituted these and other Social Safety net programs. When you site New Orleans, do you really believe that the poverty that was exposed down there was due to the fact that the government was helping those people TOO MUCH? Additionally, when you say that "a government that tried to remove every negative consequence for bad behavior............creates a lot of misery" what you are saying is that all people who are poor are poor because of bad behavior. That is not only disgusting, but also factually incorrect. Social statistics show that the most important factor effecting peoples socio-economic status is what class they were born into. If your parents were rich, you will be rich, if they were poor, then, statistically you will be poor. There are MANY people that work a lot harder than I making FAR less money than I do. Most people who are poor are WORKING poor, so your elitist attitude that people who are poor are just lazy is totally unjustified. The poor are not the problem with our economy, they are a symptom of it. The problems with our economy stem far more from the government supporting overly privileged elitist scum who were born into privileged than they do from the modest amount of social safety net spending. The rich get tax breaks and shelters, go to better schools, get better educations, get better nutrition, and DO NOT HAVE TO WORK AS HARD for their entire lives, and yet they consistently look down on the poor as the lazy criminals who are the cause of all societies problems. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:37:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#59e87778-51df-4442-997f-2339dd2cad93 Jeremy 2007-11-08T00:37:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#36139159-1f11-40cd-ac44-72b47b6b7884 Again Alice you are intellectually dishonest. Try to separate entitlement from legitimate government services like roads, airports etc. If you want to help poor people then you could probably be more cost effective getting rid of agricultural subsidies than you are with SSI and welfare spending...............New Orleans being the shining light for the world to see We are trillions in the red, our currency is getting devalued to hell, I worry about the market and the economy and you seem to want to ratchet up the spending................ there is a lot more evidence that the programs you reference lead people into having illegitimate children, drug dealing, prostitution, robbery or burglary...............than there is evidence that they are hoisting themselves out.... a government that tried to remove every negative consequence for bad behavior............creates a lot of misery but hey, your hearts in the right place so what the hey.......let it ride Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:35:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#36139159-1f11-40cd-ac44-72b47b6b7884 glennzzz 2007-11-07T23:35:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8053361a-aa51-4631-af73-d69b0ed13c46 glen... 1. The government *is* using my money. 2. It's not empathy. The government helps people on SSI and Welfare and with generally low incomes to get an education through BOG grants/waivers among other things. That gives you someone who is in a much better position to support themselves and any children they may have or become responsible for and even pay more taxes which the government can then spend. Instead of say, begging, living off a private charity, turning to drug dealing, prostitution, robbery or burglary to get by. None of which I might point out are taxable. Therefore, the government is better off in the long run if we help people. 3. Providing preventative health care to the very poor in this country is more cost effective than only treating symptoms once they become so acute you have to be hospitalized, or at the very least visit the ER. 4. When we give "poverty focused development assistance" and other aid to foreign countries... it has a huge cost/benefit payoff; it's the opposite of creating terrorists, and eventually, when you bring those people up enough, you create new trading partners and new people to buy your goods. It's kinda like what Ford did with his assembly line; he payed his workers enough so that they could afford to buy his goods. Walmart's doing the opposite, we are currently Walmartizing the world. I think that is bad. Okay, this is gonna sound weird, but I'm weird. When your neighbor's house is foreclosed and she flips out and paints crazy shit all over it and lets the yard go to Hell, your property value goes down. The more people in your city/ town/ state who are educated and employed the lower your risk of crime. If the children in your child's school have health care, that is good for you as your child is less likely to be exposed to a serious contagious disease because your child's peers are more likely to go to the Dr. We all benefit when those around us do well. And I am good with my government subsidizing that. You may find that you can't differentiate compassion from self interest in most cases because the end result is the same. There are some people who will just coast on the system, but for every one of them, there are ten who have just hit a rough patch and will pay everything they've gotten forward and more. It's like the justice system. We can lock everyone up, or we can release those for whom there is a reasonable doubt because you'd rather have ten guilty men go free than have one innocent man in prison. Well I'd rather help a leach (and you tend to at least keep their kids in heat and food) than keep down a decent person who could be self sustaining with just a little help. Think about it: Warren Buffet pays taxes at a rate of 17%, his secretary pays 30%, the more people you can bump up to that 30% tax bracket the more money we will have in the coffers. Would you like the government to stop paying for police? fire? schools? roads? courts? because ya know, "there is a big difference between doing it yourself.............and expecting the government to do it with someone elses(sp) money. " Congratulations though on getting where you got in life without using any public monies. Without a federally funded student loan. Without going to a public school or university. Without ever having to take advantage of the police or fire departments. Without driving over a bridge or on a paved road. Without using a sewer system, without taking advantage all those infrastructure's we've built with government monies, the water and power (it's so tank girl!!), the phone lines, the internet(s), the public dump, (even if your garbage company is private, your dump isn't). You are a stellar example to us all. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:14:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8053361a-aa51-4631-af73-d69b0ed13c46 Alice 2007-11-07T19:14:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ed8f79f6-1d1c-4b0c-ae3c-8597a2106162 You'd have to be stupid, dishonest or lazy to disagree with me. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:48:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ed8f79f6-1d1c-4b0c-ae3c-8597a2106162 scalefree 2007-11-07T17:48:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8d6a1cab-758c-449f-b112-b59f5b7741ad 'Just wanted to knock Glenn off his high horse. This country was founded by progressives, and every step taken to bring us closer to the ideals that make this country potentially great were made and fought for by progressives.' How does that knock him off his high horse? Just saying somehting doesn't make it so, the statement is completely unsupported, not saying there are no facts to support it, just that you haven't shown any. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:15:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8d6a1cab-758c-449f-b112-b59f5b7741ad Peter 2007-11-07T13:15:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3d044d80-ba72-43bd-9693-5a86757b3405 So, just wondering here, how many of us got up this morning and started the day by digging a hole to crap in? Not many, I'm guessing. And how many drove to work in a car you made (that includes INVENTING the wheel and the internal combustion engine, not just see someone else's and copying it;) powered with gasoline that you pumped from the ground, and refined; on a road that you surveyed, graded, paved and continue to maintain? I'll take a stab and say none. And if any of us is contributing from a computer that he managed to invent and build himself, he's still plugged into an internet infrastructure, the 3 employees of tribe and the Roman alphabet. We are social creatures--that's why we evolved language. The existance of Black Rock City, or indeed any modern city, is founded on thousands of years of knowledge of animal and plant husbandry, materials science, architechture, public health practice, machines and more, accumulated piece by piece by millions of other people. We are amazingly and intricately interconnected in a complicated web of need. No matter how much "self-reliance" we practice on the playa or in our daily lives we can only ever pull off a few of the top layers of our interdependance. Drawing a line somewhere and saying "this side is self-reliance and that side is infancy" is delusional and arbitrary. Attaching salvation and damnation to one or the other is pretty darn silly. I happen to know that my very existence depends directly on others and I spent some time this evening counting up how many. Unknown and unknowable of course, but easily in the dozens, perhaps in the hundreds. The person who stopped the train and called the medics. The dispatcher. The medics. ER docs, nurses, and support staff. Blood donors. Do we count the janitors who cleaned the ER? The social worker who alerted my family? My mother who flew out and sat next to me every day for 7 weeks? The ICU nurses? The people who did data entry on my records? And yet, I don't really know that that makes me significantly more dependent on others than the rest of you. The box of pretzles I bought at Safeway? How many people did it take to get that to me? Farmers, millers, bakers, truckers, the construction men who built the store, the company who manufactured the cash registers, clerks (who are also stockers)--the list is huge, for one minor item, somewhat representitive of anything else we buy. Radical Self-Reliance, just like Radical Community and Radical Inclusivity, is an interesting philosophical possiblity and thinking about it and practicing it to the best of our ability is a growth experience. But it is in no sense "real." We are all only dabblers in it, and it will always remain fundementally unacheivable. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:19:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#3d044d80-ba72-43bd-9693-5a86757b3405 Crypto 2007-11-07T11:19:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5a6afdb8-3a9b-403e-8d7c-8c23fa96c866 No, this country was founded by libertarians. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:36:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5a6afdb8-3a9b-403e-8d7c-8c23fa96c866 Jason 2007-11-07T10:36:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#666bbbaf-c856-43a0-9055-19e0347cc6b0 >>And if you want to get down to biases, your comment that this was "maybe the first truly intellectual string" is arrogant and patronizing to the extreme, and indicates your belief that any threads or posts contradicting your statement are NOT intelligent.<< This sums up Glennz attitude perfectly. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:56:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#666bbbaf-c856-43a0-9055-19e0347cc6b0 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-07T09:56:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ae99ae75-0e9a-4d10-aa93-32b90b6b82df Ah, but the government has been making moves to encourage Christianity. The pro-life agenda, marriage is only between a man and a woman, etc. (many more, we can go into details if you feel the need. it's late, don't feel like digging up citations right now.) If you don't adhere to those beliefs, then you are being trampled by govt and not protected. Nowhere did it say 'govt is a safety net'. Nor did it say corporations counted as persons. It also said slaves counted as 3/5 of a human being for voting purposes. Let's not waste time going into the details of what the constitution originally said or didn't say, hm? We can rip off points on each other all the livelong day to no avail. Let's just agree for the nonce that certain aspects of law touched on by the Constitution are more relevant to our lives and that others have been changed for various reasons. My question is a valid one naetheless. I am a fiscal conservative who wants the religious right out of my damn business. I don't care who you sleep with as long as it's between consenting adults, and the idea that certain rights and privilages can be granted to one group and denied to another based on that is creepy. I see an awful lot of racism going on as well, and find it disgusting, and there's some people who make more of an effort to address that issue. I'm not exactly keen on lots of social programs but I'm willing to pay for them *if they work* and provide benefits to everybody. (Ex: is society better off if the populace is educated? yeah, sure. let's have free public schools and subsidize higher education.) I find the idea of a unitary executive to be highly frightening, and if you think about it is the very reason we broke away from the UK and formed this little experiment in the first place. I think when you start arguing about what constitutes the technical, *legal* definition of the word 'torture' you lose some of the moral high ground. The loss of habeus corpus rights strikes me as nothing less than fucked up. Therefore, my political views are more closely tied to the liberal/progressive side. And if you want to get down to biases, your comment that this was "maybe the first truly intellectual string" is arrogant and patronizing to the extreme, and indicates your belief that any threads or posts contradicting your statement are NOT intelligent. Which is proseletyzing. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:23:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#ae99ae75-0e9a-4d10-aa93-32b90b6b82df Pikey 2007-11-07T08:23:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6212b018-693f-4bba-8040-117c1976adef Just wanted to knock Glenn off his high horse. This country was founded by progressives, and every step taken to bring us closer to the ideals that make this country potentially great were made and fought for by progressives. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:39:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6212b018-693f-4bba-8040-117c1976adef $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-07T07:39:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#de02ea72-27d9-4cd9-af09-2c3f2e9d9532 When one puts rules on charity or frankly states that it has boundaries, well then, I doubt such a person truly grasps its meaning. The greatest gift you will ever receive is one day being in extreme need of charity and then receiving it. God bless. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:39:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#de02ea72-27d9-4cd9-af09-2c3f2e9d9532 DreamCatcher 2007-11-07T07:39:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b264ae72-9c35-4a93-8296-bc0121595aa6 Alice You touch on an important point. Offering a helping hand is all about offering a helping hand. Who the fuck could criticize someone for doing that. But like I said before there is a big difference between doing it yourself.............and expecting the government to do it with someone elses money. You are being lazy. In the original post we disqualified empathy as an excuse for setting government policy to benefit yourself. The barbara bush quote was cute though..............I could probably fine one from Lenin you would like. Maybe that one about useful idiots. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:30:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#b264ae72-9c35-4a93-8296-bc0121595aa6 glennzzz 2007-11-07T07:30:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5899f333-c100-4d19-aed5-6a0008d35c8e Kurt, I don't agree with Ron Paul on everything but yeah, I have a problem with the military industrial complex and its lobbying strength (which means different things to different people).......I don't think any serious thinker would approve of the way that this industry has grown to serve itself as a master..............but the gun I humped was about 100 yards better than the other guys.........and I liked it that way. Kami, good post, I was there for that too. I brought my community with me, and discovered a bigger one............ Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:25:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#5899f333-c100-4d19-aed5-6a0008d35c8e glennzzz 2007-11-07T07:25:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0d9d976f-ee33-4351-8bdf-b46b17628615 Unaf's post is too stupid to respond to Pikey, hey man I was at Burning man.........although I think of myself as christian I don't think government gets to choose peoples religous (if any beliefs) as a matter of fact the whole separation of church and state thing is a bit of a fallacy, the 1st amendment is meant to protect religion from government..........big difference. We the people in order to establish........said what it said. What do you think it said....? I don't read that the government is a safety net, I think the specific responsibilities are spelled out and nowhere did it say take a buck from this man and give it to that man. In that way the founders were engaging in a bit of radical self reliance...? Your assumption that progressives and libertarians differ on the issue of money is a cop out. Money equals a lot of things, not merely currency................... Your question of which is more important is a rather crudely veiled bit of prosletyzing Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:19:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#0d9d976f-ee33-4351-8bdf-b46b17628615 glennzzz 2007-11-07T07:19:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1e020685-cf17-42b3-8b35-e6308bd96a92 There's limits to self-reliance, as to what you can do for yourself, and as to what you expect from other people. I'm not going to turn away someone in genuine need. "What, you're dehydrated? Screw you, go get your own damn water, fuckin' hippie!" There are several amenities that are covered by the basic infrastructure of the event (porta potties, ice, med tent) which are available to everyone, and innumerable camps offering basic services for free (bike repair, food, child care, shower facilities, etc). In a small city like BRC, which only exists for one week, it is possible for basic needs to be taken care of on a volunteer basis. The real world is a *touch* more complicated and involves things like 'gainful employment' and 'rent' (because I don't think you live in a tent 52 weeks a year). The fact that the default world exists all year round and has constant needs several orders of complexity above our little haven in the desert means that not everyone's needs can be met through individual effort or through assistance from kindly samaritans. Therefore, government comes in to fill that void. Because we, the people, wanted that. And on a side note, the liberals and progressives go against the libertarian mold primarily in the area of money. But the right is anti-libertarian in that they are more likely to try and intrude on your personal choices by trying to push their ideas of religion on you, interfere with your sex life, criminalize more activities (drug war, anyone?), and curtail civil rights. Are those things more important to you than money, or less? Ponder for a bit. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:39:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1e020685-cf17-42b3-8b35-e6308bd96a92 Pikey 2007-11-07T06:39:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1a700490-0dcb-4a0b-ae42-d2a8c3151198 Wow...Unaffiliated I'm guessing here, but you have issues. When I was heavily involved in politics at Sac State as a member of the Central Committee of the Republican party, my other cohorts on the CSUS Board of Directors of the ASI (Associated Students Inc.) were swapping stories of how we ALL played dirty tricks to deceive the masses. Dana Mitchell is still working for the Democrats in the Capitol in California as a Lawyer. I respect her highly. She, and I, are not people who are one sided. Bullshit is bullshit. Gray is gray. Black and white just doesn't cut it for mature, sane, responsible, self aware, discriminating adults. KK Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:09:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1a700490-0dcb-4a0b-ae42-d2a8c3151198 Kamikaze 2007-11-07T06:09:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1bed3d09-ae7e-4c55-922a-1bddb8c81ae9 firstly, I think it's the ultimate in radical self reliance to be doing well enough to give the next guy over a hand up so he can become self reliant too. secondly, it sounds like you had a very different burn than I did. we served booze too, but we also helped to build many other camps, we helped a father and daughter fix their bike, we gave people rides on our art car, we took over spikes for a night, I gave a guy a bandanna in the middle of a dust storm because he got caught w/ out a mask. Burning Man, to me, isn't about being totally autonomous. It's about being as prepared as you can be, participating as much as you can, graciously accepting help when you need it, and graciously helping others whenever you can. And dude, building a dome in the middle of the night was a blast, watching the city go up was a blast. If you'd ever seen anyone in really dire straits, and helped them out a little, just a little, just enough so they could do things on their own, so they didn't *have* to give up, and watched that person transform over the course of a year. You'd know it's pretty amazing, it's like having early arrival and watching the city go up around you. You know you were part of it, you saw it happen, but it's still fuckin' awesome that it's there. but you are being lazy, you have posted the same question in several tribes. I believe you are trying to pick a fight. And so I leave you with this to chew on. "Some people give time, some money, some their skills and connections, some literally give their life's blood... but everyone has something to give." Barbara Bush Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:01:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#1bed3d09-ae7e-4c55-922a-1bddb8c81ae9 Alice 2007-11-07T06:01:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8f9ed7d9-a2bd-4393-a8ac-ce82d5b184f1 What Kurt said. Also: Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida. Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison. Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation. Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor. Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17. Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls. Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl. Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child. Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile. Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl. *Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s. *Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s. Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail. Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos. Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children. Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child. Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page. Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter. Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger allegedly had sex with a 16 year old girl when he was 28. *Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar. Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped. Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD. *Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography. Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media. *Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him. Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl. Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her. Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison. Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl. *Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy. Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children). Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year old girl. *Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child. Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl. Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters. Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl. *Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy. Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison. Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000. Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession. *Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet. Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a "good military man" and "church goer," was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison. Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter. Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison. Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was charged with rape for allegedly paying a 15-year old girl for sex. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women. "The Great Republican Party: Party of Accountability." I guess by accountability they mean, "sooner or later we're caught." Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:51:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#8f9ed7d9-a2bd-4393-a8ac-ce82d5b184f1 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-07T05:51:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#668bd60c-8a58-4423-a7ee-d94a9550f3b9 What I personally say is this: radical self reliance and radical community reliance: these are the only ways we will get out of the sticky mess that the status quo has us in. We have to create what we want, and we have to do it ourselves. Meaning, I can't just sit back and wait: I've got to take the actions. And also, I can't do it alone: I've got to team up with others aligned with the same vision. Radical Community Reliance. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:48:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#668bd60c-8a58-4423-a7ee-d94a9550f3b9 Supernova 2007-11-07T05:48:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6a8c7376-7edc-4b50-b017-22bf1bfbcab5 Glenn, seems to me most of the gov't "charity" these days goes to corporations and the millitatry/industrial complex. Assuming you are a Ron Paul backer, how do his anti-choice views jibe with libertarians "stay out of my life" ethos? Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:44:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#6a8c7376-7edc-4b50-b017-22bf1bfbcab5 Kurt 2007-11-07T05:44:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#41119eb6-c419-407e-b265-05a86eeb83b8 I'm a Republican...http://people.tribe.net/kamikazekelly/photos/1945868f-9644-42cb-ab90-8f869352023e Military too. Preconceptions abound about Burningman. One of them is that we are naked Hippies dancing in the desert. My costume is a Flight Jacket and Jeans. I am not 'Radically Inclusive'. I'm paid to evict 'Drainbows' from festivals. I am a Burner. Like it or not...I am here for the Community. KK Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:25:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#41119eb6-c419-407e-b265-05a86eeb83b8 Kamikaze 2007-11-07T05:25:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#85984eb7-f56f-4883-a8b6-c31c42cda270 So I went to my first burn, loved 90% of the people I met. Respectful, thanked us for the booze, a few hippies even joined our little libertarian group for the morning runs............ But I ask you this How can people that live their lives around an event whose premise is Radical Self Reliance be overwhelmingly liberal or progressive when it comes to their political leanings. If that isn't an oxymoron.............. Don't cheat here and say that you are empathetic, or sympathetic to the plight of others. That is an intellectual cop out and not an answer for the purposes of this string. Charity has its place, but it has no role in the proper function of our government. Doubt me see the constitution......... Flame away but I'm hoping for more. maybe the first truly intellectual string.................. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:16:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/c241c425-e44d-4932-8188-48020961482c#85984eb7-f56f-4883-a8b6-c31c42cda270 glennzzz 2007-11-07T05:16:37Z