http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4098b526-40ef-4022-9072-8cc1122863f9 Here's a great parody from The Upright Citizen's Brigade. http://www.xenutv.com/us/ucb.htm --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:47:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4098b526-40ef-4022-9072-8cc1122863f9 rodent 2007-11-28T17:47:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#cb70dc6f-60e7-43ab-95ce-fa841f11cb58 Yanno, that's why I didn't join the FSM tribe. I thought all those paintings of him having his way with women were disrespectful (especially since so many of the women looked unhappy about it). I prefer to think my deities don’t force themselves on females. Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:18:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#cb70dc6f-60e7-43ab-95ce-fa841f11cb58 MdJGutie 2007-11-26T06:18:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1c56aa91-5bab-4645-82ab-dec021d62359 I ate spaghetti. Now spaghetti eats me! Oh sorry, I was just channelling Yakov Smirnoff. It's so embarassing when I channel unfunny comedians. Time for another exorcism. Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:03:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1c56aa91-5bab-4645-82ab-dec021d62359 Crypto 2007-11-26T06:03:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b21a2363-de4d-4e54-9b8b-04a5b34baa9d i think a good change of course would be to get some Flying Spaghetti Monster testimonials going. Before I was touched by His Noodley Appendage... (Insert Testimony Here) Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:56:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b21a2363-de4d-4e54-9b8b-04a5b34baa9d Owl 2007-11-26T05:56:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#42314c17-dd40-4a96-90b3-4ba15d77666b I'm sure it does (and has), MM. It was the proselytizing attitude and cult like responses to criticism that put people off. Scientology, I'm sure has helped people too. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, South Park, and Broadway Musicals. The simple fact remains, it was an inappropriate post on the Burningman Tribe and quickly went downhill from there. KK Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:13:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#42314c17-dd40-4a96-90b3-4ba15d77666b Kamikaze 2007-11-26T03:13:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#fe2115f6-2e6e-4f07-adb9-59af410b9fcd The interesting and perhaps ironic thing about the SELP program that Moki posted about is that many people who bash Landmark have doubtless benefited from the SELP in some way. Basically the idea behind SELP is that you have declared what your life's all about, now go out into the community and prove it. The project is something you design for whatever community you declare you're part of, and you learn super-valuable leadership and project management skills. If you've done your project really really well, someone else takes over leadership of it, you fade into the background, and it lives on far past on your involvement. During the workshop itself there's the typical opportunities to enroll your friends and the entire free world in the Landmark Forum, but once the program is over, and as the project lives on, its own involvement with Landmark is lost to the sands of time. I coached the SELP with one guy whose vision was to beautify Santa Monica Boulevard. You know all that cool-ass art that you see down the medians in West Hollywood in Los Angeles? That's someone's Landmark project you're admiring (or scorning, if you hate the art). And nowhere does it say, "This Art Brought To You Courtesy of Landmark Education." Countless people have organized block parties for their neighborhoods, circles of writers or poets or screenwriters, or single-mom-babysitting circles, social groups in their churches, and things like that which have gone on for years as the original organizer, during his or her SELP project, faded into the background and moved on. At the end of the day, the very least compliment you could pay it, is that it causes participation in life, rather than spectating. More Burning Man camps and art projects than anyone will ever know, registered and unregistered, were SELP projects. And a miniscule portion of people participating or benefiting from these projects were ever solicited for participation in a Landmark course. Anyway, I think what Moki did was clumsy and misinformed, but it doesn't change the fact that SELP projects have made many worlds of difference. Mon, 26 Nov 2007 02:57:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#fe2115f6-2e6e-4f07-adb9-59af410b9fcd Owl 2007-11-26T02:57:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#01e16a80-e03e-4802-b382-66d303583c39 thats a trip.. never heard of anything like that Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:00:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#01e16a80-e03e-4802-b382-66d303583c39 t 2007-11-25T23:00:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f97916e1-5317-4ef6-aba2-467973eed48a sounds more like EST Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:10:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f97916e1-5317-4ef6-aba2-467973eed48a Dan 2007-11-25T22:10:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3c660851-0a40-4c8f-9e4f-8298e4aca520 Ha, trust the hacker to say BSD when he means BDSM. Blame it on too much LDS in the 60s. Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:05:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3c660851-0a40-4c8f-9e4f-8298e4aca520 scalefree 2007-11-25T22:05:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d2fab486-4b81-4dd9-9e14-badcb028640e I did lots of Landmark coursework from '01 - '04, and did so because I found value in it. No one coerced me. I'll say these things rather about Landmark: - If you do the work, it will help you in wonderful ways. - Theirs isn't the only pathway to transformation, but it's effective and well priced. - Their marketing paradigm sucks ass and has made far more messes than they care to admit. Works for some, works against others. - They've made a lot of mistakes and continue to. If anyone reading this is interested in pathways to personal transformation, I'm happy to respond off-thread if you send me an email. I seldom monitor the goings-on in this particular tribe. I'm happy to share about or discuss any transformational techniques insofar as you are discerning what's right for you. Landmark may or may not be it; consider me a resource who likes Landmark but doesn't care if you go or not. Al Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:30:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d2fab486-4b81-4dd9-9e14-badcb028640e Owl 2007-11-25T18:30:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#926826a3-471f-4d17-9c72-5c9018a8708b You may be thinking of the Community, a loosely organized group mainly centered in Oakland that's sponsored a theme camp at Burning Man. They seem to have a fair number of Landmark grads among their members, they have used sex as a recruiting tactic (they used it on me, or tried to anyway) & they have thrown rave-style events in the SFO area. They had a definite cultic feel to them, with unhealthy power relationships between senior & junior members, with the former lording it over the latter almost as masters & servants. It's not my scene so I could be wrong but it didn't look like what I understand your typical BSDM situation to be like, it felt more like real degradation than playing at it. They seem to be on the wane, having peaked in membership around when I ran into them in 2003 or so. Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:06:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#926826a3-471f-4d17-9c72-5c9018a8708b scalefree 2007-11-25T18:06:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e9591ad5-34e0-4029-bf8e-547c9e5a98b3 "forum was busted in SF planning to use sex and ecstasy to recruit. they were throwing raves as recruiting venues, without telling anyone, that it was a recruiting event. " Really - someone went to a rave and a forum broke out !! If this were true - and I highly doubt this is - then I DEMAND that all the deleted threads about the forum be put BACK ON immediately. Burningman - Forum - Sex- Raves - The snake is eating its own tail !! That also explains why people were so prone to giving each other massages and such. What you are saying is that the forum is just a geodesic dome and a trance dj away from being a decent chill space . Tapandy Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:22:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e9591ad5-34e0-4029-bf8e-547c9e5a98b3 Tapan 2007-11-25T00:22:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#92f2b2a7-b546-42d0-a740-e497503ae510 forum was busted in SF planning to use sex and ecstasy to recruit. they were throwing raves as recruiting venues, without telling anyone, that it was a recruiting event. the investigators were assaulted by forum cult zombies, who were too 'INVESTED' to see the light of day. in that particular case, they got stomped, but they have since moved on to grow, ever more rich and powerful. they *really* have deep pockets and big guns riding with them. some forum veterans are balanced and brilliant. some of them are vegetative with very little chance of seeing their spirit return. they have a deep political agenda and have, a tactical and strategic strategy, for embedding themselves in the political machine, at every level. when out in the light of day, they are very ethical sorts. but they got caught using underhanded recruiting methods before, and wouldn't fess up -- that's the bigger crime in my mind. busted, but unrepentant. that's what should tell you something... Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:01:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#92f2b2a7-b546-42d0-a740-e497503ae510 sir zlodnick of shredlock 2007-11-24T21:01:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d9acd968-2d47-44f3-bf3f-2f4622650979 He did do the training. But then he refused to go to anything else. I remember when they offered to send me to the training. I was 11. I said "$200 is a awul lot of money!" I remember thinking it was kinda cool that they wanted to spend that much on me. It was worthwhile. But the problem comes in when they want you to spend more and more cash on more and more seminars (like scientology). I saw a scientology pamphlet on the ground today, it said "Are You Curious About Yourself?" Struck me as stupid. Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:47:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d9acd968-2d47-44f3-bf3f-2f4622650979 Danger Angel 2007-11-24T08:47:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#51d97c13-6075-4bf6-a6a6-51e4c4333d09 "My dad called them ESTholes." We did too. I haven't heard that since the 70's. :) Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:13:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#51d97c13-6075-4bf6-a6a6-51e4c4333d09 Bobzilla 2007-11-24T03:13:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#47f98a0d-c00c-43c0-bb92-694ec7806bcc Umm...shut up and go ride a bike comes to mind. Then again, I'm eating Turkey. Not crow! KK Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:25:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#47f98a0d-c00c-43c0-bb92-694ec7806bcc Kamikaze 2007-11-23T22:25:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2c80f040-36bd-42be-97e9-b5bfc032539b What is a nice way to tell a friend to shut up and go ride a bike? : ) Any ideas KK? Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:23:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2c80f040-36bd-42be-97e9-b5bfc032539b grouchosuave 2007-11-23T22:23:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#96aac0c4-ecd1-445c-9e16-0bd697210429 or me just posting to see me... Oh shit... God DAMMIT!!! KK Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:56:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#96aac0c4-ecd1-445c-9e16-0bd697210429 Kamikaze 2007-11-23T21:56:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#06c9f066-a81d-449f-95a2-72558b19eddb Or rodent and two clicks of his mouse. Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:47:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#06c9f066-a81d-449f-95a2-72558b19eddb grouchosuave 2007-11-23T21:47:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5b1c29b9-ba59-4bd4-926d-060a0b1d246f This would be a good place for Tracy and one of her recaps. Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:46:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5b1c29b9-ba59-4bd4-926d-060a0b1d246f MdJGutie 2007-11-23T21:46:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7ca79470-5da0-4ef3-9456-e9a03b197711 Well I think getting a "maybe" is as good as its gonna get from you. fair enough. let's move on. if that is even possible in a tribe like this Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:28:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7ca79470-5da0-4ef3-9456-e9a03b197711 grouchosuave 2007-11-23T21:28:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#da999ca2-5573-4886-80a1-14a01e827205 solid post.. and maybe i am callous. Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:20:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#da999ca2-5573-4886-80a1-14a01e827205 t 2007-11-23T21:20:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c5c084ff-b236-4fa5-acb0-e0aef2f84238 Jesus Christ, one of the few things that seemed to distinguish burners from sheep in the past was an ability to think independently. When you begin to pile on you start to resemble a bunch of fratboy rugby team drunks. t's comment was obviously in extremely poor taste, and just as obviously intended to be sarcastic humor, not an insult. However ignorant (or not) he may have been of Crypto's circumstances. You think calling someone a fucktard every other sentence is going to prompt them to reflect earnestly upon their actions? If we were handing out awards for poor taste, I doubt that this guy would make the top 1000. In this Tribe alone. That said, I share the disappointment felt by those empathizing with Crypto, and hope that t recognizes how his comment was perceived, however (un)intentional it's insulting aspect. Indeed, if you fail to acknowledge that you've harmed someone unintentionally, you begin to appear callous. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:33:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c5c084ff-b236-4fa5-acb0-e0aef2f84238 embersandsparks 2007-11-22T23:33:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a8cd45d4-b1b0-4279-a1fa-3958e4ea5a6a Yeah well, point taken. But breathing is also common ground. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:13:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a8cd45d4-b1b0-4279-a1fa-3958e4ea5a6a grouchosuave 2007-11-22T23:13:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bf234c84-0e9d-40b3-aedc-a93261a84c03 "Found it for ya. Linked and reprinted below. It appears that this was indeed an attempt to hook burners into the Landmark Education tarbaby." what looks clear to me he was looking to promote his product to anyone and everyone he could. It was Tribe.net that was one of the thirteen links posted... Not the burningman tribe. From what I understand language that separates people into us & them groups like "burners", and feeling threatened that your sacred group is being interfered with by another is classified as cultish behavior. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:11:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bf234c84-0e9d-40b3-aedc-a93261a84c03 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-22T23:11:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3a6ae3fd-0660-4a92-bf69-c7687dbcae02 Last I talked to her, she still felt belittled. But you are right. She can speak for herself. She's a bid girl. Well...half big lately...but she can stand on her own. Wait! Shit!!! Now I'm in for it. *sigh* Ever feel like Charlie Brown? Your whole LIFE?! Thats me. *wheres the football, Lucy?* KK Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:07:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3a6ae3fd-0660-4a92-bf69-c7687dbcae02 Kamikaze 2007-11-22T20:07:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d6fe46c1-2711-449d-b89d-860e44a68126 >T, your half-hearted apology still doesn't cut it. A few posts up Crypto mentioned that she didn't like anyone defining her experiences. It just strikes me that criticizing an apology made to another person as being adequate (or not) assumes someone knows better than the person to who the apology is meant. It kind comes across as patronizing. Why not let Crypto be the one to decide what's adequate or not or sincere or not. I'm just sayin.' Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:45:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d6fe46c1-2711-449d-b89d-860e44a68126 Badger 2007-11-22T19:45:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#45d61ca8-a99b-4a83-9049-17de6c12ff5b See, now there ya go. And T, when I said "hard sell"? This is what I was talking about. I'm sorry but that 's just tacky. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:38:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#45d61ca8-a99b-4a83-9049-17de6c12ff5b scalefree 2007-11-22T13:38:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3256700b-f5fe-4202-9cca-71c17c42e0f7 Wow this guy T is a piece of work. We're sorry. Can we have Adam back? Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:58:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3256700b-f5fe-4202-9cca-71c17c42e0f7 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-22T06:58:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5b016109-f85d-4e9b-a06d-b21f636801e6 "You know, that's one thing that Landmark might adress that would do you some good. Take some personal responsibility for yourself and your own actions. Learn to admit when you're wrong, if you're man enough." Rhino, you just nailed it! Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:34:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5b016109-f85d-4e9b-a06d-b21f636801e6 principessa crankypants 2007-11-22T06:34:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2215a963-f03d-4aa0-88b6-212fc99ae123 Thanks Rodent The thing that bothers me the most is people trying to sell their crap here. On the Burningman Tribe. Their books, philosophy, religions, cults, and commercial goods. This SHOULD be a safe place from all that relentless shit. It's not. It is insidious and disingenuous at times. I salute all of you who call "Bullshit!" on Bullshit. Please, God (sorry)...make this a safe place from the insanity of selling. Whatever it is. I'm not buying!!! KK Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:29:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2215a963-f03d-4aa0-88b6-212fc99ae123 Kamikaze 2007-11-22T06:29:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#dad52e84-e76a-4a6a-9c99-d0183e04d3e6 Found it for ya. Linked and reprinted below. It appears that this was indeed an attempt to hook burners into the Landmark Education tarbaby. I'll venture to guess that a similar posting was made on some of the websites he listed. --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) ********** http://lmacg.tribe.net/thread/9f1ef025-1be7-4de4-9270-5d0e1a338211 Dear LandMark Graduates: I am working on a project to spread the word about SELP. Of all the landmark programs, this program has done more to bring about transformation in the world then any other! If LandMark or EST have helped indivduals to reach transformation, SELP (Self Expression and Leadership) teaches these transformed indivduals where really power lies in transformation. The real power is when you create seeds of possibility and invite others to grow them, even giving over that possibility to others completely, so that you are free to create new possbilities. The world is looking for leaders to inspire them into projects that will make the world a better place, but few ever take the time to create these possibilities, often its just a matter of thinking no one will put energy into it. But SELP has taught thousands of people in LandMark that the world is hungry for possibility. So I have a list of different websites below and wanted to know if you have suggestions of other websites that I can send out word about what SELP graduate projectes are being created in the world. Please reply with your suggestions and thank you so much for your stand for possbility!! www.wordpress.com- www.facebook.com www.myspace.com- www.tribe.net www.digg.com www.43things.com www.vox.com www.dailymotion.com- www.blogspot.com- www.del.icio.us WWW.VODPOD.COm www.facebook.com www.Metacafe.com www.landmarkforumutah.com www.landmark_forum_grads.com Best, Thomas Gallagher Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:46:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#dad52e84-e76a-4a6a-9c99-d0183e04d3e6 rodent 2007-11-22T05:46:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#eb5dbb0f-a91a-4aad-9fce-4b17fb9c881d <i understand what you're trying to say. > You don't understand, whether you realize it or not, that you insulted someone we consider very dear and special. Someone who has more guts and brains than you ever will. <i dont have anything to apologize to you or anyone here for. > You don't have to apologize to me. Apologize to Crypto. You're just further demonstrating what an ignorant asshole fucktard you are. Keep it up. We can continue to insult you here. You know, that's one thing that Landmark might adress that would do you some good. Take some personal responsibility for yourself and your own actions. Learn to admit when you're wrong, if you're man enough. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:09:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#eb5dbb0f-a91a-4aad-9fce-4b17fb9c881d Rhino 2007-11-22T05:09:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#54f59d52-55a3-4328-8717-ae8b3714430f Try to keep up. It was Moki who deleted two threads, one here & one in the Landmark tribe. It's the Landmark one that was really interesting, it was a call for help in targeting social networking sites to sell Landmark courses through. After I linked to it in this thread, pointing out how it gave the game away that Moki was only coming here to give us a sales pitch, Moki deleted that thread too. Don't take my word for it though, go ask Moki what was in the thread & why he deleted it. As for pushing, Landmark is practically synonymous with hard sell. See above. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 04:02:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#54f59d52-55a3-4328-8717-ae8b3714430f scalefree 2007-11-22T04:02:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#922afd9e-88da-44aa-8e74-2824cd504d77 I think the consensus here is that A true gentleman should not act as if he is gods gift to women, politics or the art of debate. Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:31:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#922afd9e-88da-44aa-8e74-2824cd504d77 Tracy 2007-11-22T01:31:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d73f7a7c-522f-425c-bdfa-300971edc940 Let me esplain...no wait, that would take too long. Let me sum up... Humperdink is marrying your True love in less than an hour. And you have been 'mostly' dead all day. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:54:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d73f7a7c-522f-425c-bdfa-300971edc940 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T23:54:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#28282420-1fdc-43fe-8fb7-a26e985a23ce what in the everloving fuck are you people babbling about now? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:26:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#28282420-1fdc-43fe-8fb7-a26e985a23ce Blenderhead 2007-11-21T23:26:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#666df777-ea16-481e-95d6-f219eb3c23e4 "Transformation into what?" Back in the EST days they were fond of saying "You're an Asshole" It's true. My dad called them ESTholes. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:19:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#666df777-ea16-481e-95d6-f219eb3c23e4 Danger Angel 2007-11-21T23:19:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0252b5f-c34b-42bb-a447-637096545081 i understand what you're trying to say. i dont have anything to apologize to you or anyone here for. i havent deleted anything. i dont even think i belong to any landmark forum tribes.(solid assumption though) where was i trying to push, coerce, sell? or maybe you were just talking to someone else? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:18:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0252b5f-c34b-42bb-a447-637096545081 t 2007-11-21T23:18:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#03361891-5b9e-4464-b25e-ef889bbc8926 Real men apologize when they are wrong. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:06:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#03361891-5b9e-4464-b25e-ef889bbc8926 Hummingbird 2007-11-21T23:06:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3e7fd228-f712-4bcd-bdd2-5c4cf46bf318 This is the behavior of someone who's gone through all this EST/Forum/Landmark/SHLEP training? I thought it was "about transformation". Transformation into what? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:51:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3e7fd228-f712-4bcd-bdd2-5c4cf46bf318 Bobzilla 2007-11-21T22:51:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4b8c4766-cd59-4ac0-a8ba-f5cb7cba9990 So of course when She replied "please do not contact me" He comes back with "dont take yourself too seriously :)" WTF Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:37:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4b8c4766-cd59-4ac0-a8ba-f5cb7cba9990 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T22:37:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#48805a49-93ec-4a2f-9af7-b3e85b5018da And just as you post this... I get this: " to clear something up.. Message that last email was a joke. dont take yourself too seriously :)" Fucktard. Do not contact me. Not acceptable. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:37:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#48805a49-93ec-4a2f-9af7-b3e85b5018da Tia 2007-11-21T22:37:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3259dd2a-603f-4379-972b-5e21e45d52a0 Just when I was ready to put my torch out and the pitchfork back in the shed t writes to Tia "Something made me click on your profile: I thought I saw nipple in your pic." and "So let's break some rules together, starting with your silly "no dating from tribe" policy. Message me back and let's paint Applebees red." Un fucking believable! If this is an example of Landmark's Education, count me out. KK Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:30:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3259dd2a-603f-4379-972b-5e21e45d52a0 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T22:30:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3fa5a4b6-28f1-468d-83f7-df4c64be0f04 If Landmark really worked: - You'd be able to understand what we're trying to say to you. - You'd understand why you need to apologize. - You wouldn't have to delete posts both here & in your own tribe to hide what you say. - You'd be more able to win us over & enroll us in your vision, not less able. - Landmark's ideas would sell themselves & wouldn't need hard sell tactics, deception, coercion & practiced spontaneity to pull guests in. If you guys are the product of Landmark's superior technology, why would I want it? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:27:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3fa5a4b6-28f1-468d-83f7-df4c64be0f04 scalefree 2007-11-21T22:27:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#52155780-896b-4e3f-82ba-143e70b9f8ee I'm still so laughing over the "The Secret is like Amway for the soul" comment!!! My question to t is did you offer a sincere apology to Crypto. From what I read here, you somehow tried to justify it as "Just Kidding!". That doesn't sound very 'Enlightened' to me. Maybe you need more advanced courses in EST or Scientology or whatever it is that you say has transformed you into a creature of higher consciousnesses. I can recommend a few books. Public Library. No cost (unless you turn them in late). KK Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:24:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#52155780-896b-4e3f-82ba-143e70b9f8ee Kamikaze 2007-11-21T22:24:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4ddd8f6c-9695-4763-8371-a82ea4622bcc "After having been in this tribe a few years, my fears are... once the mob gets a better reference (accuracy not required) the attacks follow. " Fair enough. This tribe can have it's torches and pitchforks out with lightning speed sometimes. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:21:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4ddd8f6c-9695-4763-8371-a82ea4622bcc MdJGutie 2007-11-21T22:21:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#089b50f2-337f-4f93-aae3-965464534e9e dont get it twisted; it wasnt an apology. and the statement i made wasnt a joke, ie it's intention was not humor. however it also wasn't intended as an insult.. thats what i was trying to get across. whether she is or isnt in a wheelchair had nothing to do with my choosing to ask her if she could backpedal. if it wasnt intended as a joke or an insult, i dont see why anyone should have a problem with what i said. but thats just me. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:04:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#089b50f2-337f-4f93-aae3-965464534e9e t 2007-11-21T22:04:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4b7c9544-f8c5-40ca-b915-c27cf7cfc521 "I wasn't looking to attack your statement, but to have a better frame of reference for it." After having been in this tribe a few years, my fears are... once the mob gets a better reference (accuracy not required) the attacks follow. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:55:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4b7c9544-f8c5-40ca-b915-c27cf7cfc521 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-21T21:55:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8249f55f-0234-4789-90d3-3ca532ff5475 Thanks for the response, garimo. Of course people take fragments and make blanket statements, that's why I always place more weight behind statements made by people with personal experience, good, bad, or indifferent. No need to go further if you don't want to. I wasn't looking to attack your statement, but to have a better frame of reference for it. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:43:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8249f55f-0234-4789-90d3-3ca532ff5475 MdJGutie 2007-11-21T21:43:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2609a55a-2a1a-4305-b497-372c3d104607 "No, but the news stories that sell are usually the ones where folks are harmed. Again, I question if not proportionatly more people are 'harmed' by being involved with BM than with LM." I can understand the point. Love to see how we'd do that study lol. Could be interesting or just a pia exercise of mental masturbation. Probably the former. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:35:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2609a55a-2a1a-4305-b497-372c3d104607 Tia 2007-11-21T21:35:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#16cff58c-6ca3-4a76-92ab-0b23d661450a T, your half-hearted apology still doesn't cut it. Crypto's one of us, who suffered a horrifying accident that put her in that wheelchair quite recently. You should go back into our tribe's archives & read some of the threads about it, to give you some reality on why we're taking your offhanded joke so personally. After you're done you can come back here & give both her & us an apology that means something. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:31:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#16cff58c-6ca3-4a76-92ab-0b23d661450a scalefree 2007-11-21T21:31:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bca510d4-49e7-4d55-bd88-c871c73ae8dd MdJGutie, I don't really think which group is of importance. I have no need to explain or defend anything of the past. What's relevant and alive for me in the moment is how I feel when individuals take fragments of information and lump 'em all together to make some authoritative all knowing statement... when I know from my experience there is no basis for it. If they want to put it into the realm of personal opinion and speech, I'm cool with that. But I find defining others experience with what I see as ill-informed opinion lacks credibility and leaves me feeling no respect. Never the less, the feeling is mine to deal with... others are just the catalyst. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:23:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bca510d4-49e7-4d55-bd88-c871c73ae8dd $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-21T21:23:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ca163e90-cf12-4761-b639-9c7407a97be7 "There is ample information over the last 30 years or so about this organization. To deny otherwise is disingenous imho' I didn't claim there wasn't ample information about the group, just that there was not a preponderance of evidence that the groups is as harmful as others have claimed it to be in this thread. 'Whatever the benefit of LF to you, the price others have had to pay is to high.' 'News stories don't define level of harm.' No, but the news stories that sell are usually the ones where folks are harmed. Again, I question if not proportionatly more people are 'harmed' by being involved with BM than with LM. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:22:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ca163e90-cf12-4761-b639-9c7407a97be7 Peter 2007-11-21T21:22:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9f78fe49-f9cf-4781-be35-fdf79e181087 And so it seems that my notions of viral marketing weren't baseless. Sneaky bastards. --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:13:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9f78fe49-f9cf-4781-be35-fdf79e181087 rodent 2007-11-21T21:13:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#431b45b6-1a23-4dd2-bf47-9fd30c85982e Timber, the post in the Landmark tribe has been deleted, I guess to cover their tracks or something, but it was asking for help in a campaign to enroll guests from a whole slew of social networking sites into becoming grads of SELP. Whether it's new or not, Moki came here as part of that enrollment campaign. You'll have to take my word for it because the post got yanked, or you could ask Moki why he yanked the post (the one in Landmark tribe, not the one he yanked over here). Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:55:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#431b45b6-1a23-4dd2-bf47-9fd30c85982e scalefree 2007-11-21T20:55:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#67bc90e5-a3a2-433d-973b-5b51865d85bd skylar - want to assist in gathering the data for such a suit? There is ample information over the last 30 years or so about this organization. To deny otherwise is disingenous imho. News stories don't define level of harm. They define what sells. There have been stories in the last two years, I believe that some have posted links to them in this very thread. One being - http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2124 Businesses have a right to operate. People have a right to buy. Harm does not equate a tort for which any self-respecting atty would go for it. To suggest there is not a preponderance of evidence when that evidence is not yet gathered (by your own words) is yet another straw man. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:54:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#67bc90e5-a3a2-433d-973b-5b51865d85bd Tia 2007-11-21T20:54:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3c66255b-296f-40b2-8d89-1f819c0bf74f Ah, garimo, maybe you can answer my question. What were you talking about? Which group? I know you brought up several, then expanded on one, but I couldn't figure out which one. It seemed like you had something to say with some personal experience behind it. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:50:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3c66255b-296f-40b2-8d89-1f819c0bf74f MdJGutie 2007-11-21T20:50:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7e5243b9-7a9b-48c3-840e-f20baba5a321 'but considering it is a private corporation which millions have attended' so if it is so harmful then one might resonable expect that some fair portion of these millions would somehow be noticeable in the world. That some shrewd law firm could use the let's say hundreds of thousands out of the millions that have been harmed to support a class action lawsuit. With it being so harmful and millions attending there should be a preponderance of evidence. Instead I find tens of people that have witten negative things about it, I don't call this much in the way of anecdotal evidence. As for describing a cult, you will find that the descriptions fit many aspects of BM. And, one could look at it's track record last year and say it's as every bit as harmful if not more. Afterall, I don't believe Landmark had two stories hit the national news last year about harm and people the way the BM event did. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:30:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7e5243b9-7a9b-48c3-840e-f20baba5a321 Peter 2007-11-21T20:30:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ac5d846c-f22a-47e5-af3c-4fa8c2a13d03 "I don't like anyone, under any circumstances defining my experiences." I share those feelings! "Since the 70s I've seen cults come and go. Synanon, Rashneesh, that Guru who looked like Marc Bolan, Da Free John, Hari Krishna, People's Temple, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, Your Black Muslim Bakery, the list goes on. These nasty, charismatic gurus colonize people's minds with poisonous memes, leaving behind a trail of destruction for members, for families of members, for critics, and for neighbors caught in the cross fire." not how I define my experience... for me the broad brush judgment/statement comes off as authoritarian and dismissive of contrary experiences. I can see that different people handle being offended differently... but this isn't something I would think is justification for the insults, tantrums and personal attacks... after all the wanting for feeling some mutual respect or even tolerance for my experience that has shaped who I am is an internal thing... like why should I care if some person is unaware that I find their flippant comments define and disrespect my experience? I guess I don't care too much, It's just a chat space... at times somewhat entertaining. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:31:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ac5d846c-f22a-47e5-af3c-4fa8c2a13d03 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-21T20:31:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5c48bff2-58c7-4d6e-a4cc-461b3af1e273 Yeah the SELP has been around for years. I did it back in '98 and then coached it for several years. It's actually good stuff, but nothing new. You people crack me up. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:27:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5c48bff2-58c7-4d6e-a4cc-461b3af1e273 Timber 2007-11-21T20:27:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4fbb796b-f513-4fc9-93d1-f86594b9c0c1 "There are other ways to grow and evolve as a person. Ones that don't involve fake tears." A-freakin-men Danger Angel. There is as much anecdotal evidence of the harm as there is the good skylar. I can certainly arrange a study but considering it is a private corporation which millions have attended, would find gathering data on this point nearly impossible in any other fashion. The link elaine posted earlier is a pretty solid "what is a cult". It need not be religious in nature. It is however mind control, cultish, and does cause harm. It may also help people. To each their own. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:15:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4fbb796b-f513-4fc9-93d1-f86594b9c0c1 Tia 2007-11-21T20:15:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7782645a-c71d-4534-b89c-729265a693a4 The thread in the Landmark tribe I linked to earlier has been pulled. Point one in Robert J Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform: Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:09:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7782645a-c71d-4534-b89c-729265a693a4 scalefree 2007-11-21T20:09:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#697776ed-50e7-4e7a-b493-0c4ee259a6eb 'Whatever the benefit of LF to you, the price others have had to pay is to high.' Sorry to hear that your experiences are different, all the folks I know who went have done extremelly well both emotionally and finacially since attending the training. 'I know cults. Landmark Forum sets off my cult alarms. Whatever the benefit of LF to you, the price others have had to pay is to high.' So, you have studies for this? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:59:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#697776ed-50e7-4e7a-b493-0c4ee259a6eb Peter 2007-11-21T19:59:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#574b6a29-c97d-40f0-8670-78948ff74788 Before you kill this thread Crypto, I'd like to tell everyone, from an INSIDERS perspective, that LF is definitely a cult. My mom was an assistant trainer for EST. I've worked for a company that used the LF methods (which ironically brought it down). LF does have it's pluses - I know where it has helped people get over hurdles in their lives. As someone said - it can be a great jumping of point. But the way it pushes, and kneedles and manipulates is gross. And perhaps you thought the Trainer was being authentic and genuine - but BELEIVE me when I say - every single thing that that person said to you was rehearsed - even the tears. There are other ways to grow and evolve as a person. Ones that don't involve fake tears. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:56:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#574b6a29-c97d-40f0-8670-78948ff74788 Danger Angel 2007-11-21T19:56:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#488fe0f6-ee1c-4434-a32f-111c94492725 I think it's time for a combined link dump on Landmark & cults. I put one in the original thread but that got yanked, so here it is again, plus a few more. Information is the best weapon in a war of ideas, so if you want to get informed on the subject at hand here's some of the best ammo dumps around. http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_cult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGAT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_Werner_Erhard Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:55:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#488fe0f6-ee1c-4434-a32f-111c94492725 scalefree 2007-11-21T19:55:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#821ddcf6-d2ad-458e-9924-de61fbd07fde "I don't like anyone, under any circumstances defining my experiences." Well said. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:50:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#821ddcf6-d2ad-458e-9924-de61fbd07fde Danger Angel 2007-11-21T19:50:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a2aec29e-b74e-4abc-a29d-4aa58bd6e756 'This to me stank of viral marketing and I believe is what ticked off everyone else. ' It might have but this current 'viral' marketing is so much more ingenious... they pulled the orignal post and now this one has probably surpased the number of hits the original got:) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:50:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a2aec29e-b74e-4abc-a29d-4aa58bd6e756 Peter 2007-11-21T19:50:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3ed1399c-53d8-41b3-9579-cbb045ccc825 Okay, Skylar, I'll spell it out. I know cults. Landmark Forum sets off my cult alarms. Whatever the benefit of LF to you, the price others have had to pay is to high. I do believe that if you ever came face to face with the suffering that others have and continue to endure, you'd be filled with revultion. And now to kill this thread. I am morally certain that plenty of boys got great benefits from their time in the Hitlerjungend. However, cultish, destructive, evil. I hope that puts a stake through its rocky heart. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:48:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3ed1399c-53d8-41b3-9579-cbb045ccc825 Crypto 2007-11-21T19:48:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#aada9d37-9196-4c16-8820-1c63b5725a48 . Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:41:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#aada9d37-9196-4c16-8820-1c63b5725a48 Peter 2007-11-21T19:41:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#630b5e6d-f9fd-45ba-8455-f2b05e21f117 "The Secret is like Amway for the soul" HA!!!!! This just killed me ;-) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:43:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#630b5e6d-f9fd-45ba-8455-f2b05e21f117 Tia 2007-11-21T19:43:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3222c4a7-aba3-46f5-bb5a-eb20f1b29b0b " What was there to misunderstand? Fucktard." Probably something along the lines of save the cheesy come ons. Piece of work fucktard. New playa name t. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:42:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3222c4a7-aba3-46f5-bb5a-eb20f1b29b0b Tia 2007-11-21T19:42:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#12a398b4-b770-4b3c-9681-e18ea9a045fc Though the post seemed innocent, looking for Landmark graduates, it was promoting the "Landmark For Burners" tribe, not Landmark Graduate Burners tribe. This to me stank of viral marketing and I believe is what ticked off everyone else. A few years ago, someone promoted a "Domebuilding Workshop and Introduction to the Landmark Forum" here in Santa Cruz and received a similar response. --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:42:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#12a398b4-b770-4b3c-9681-e18ea9a045fc rodent 2007-11-21T19:42:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a9ae9038-1a74-44ac-88e7-6ea3a3f3e094 Though the post seemed innocent, looking for Landmark graduates, it was promoting the "Landmark For Burners" tribe, not Landmark Graduate Burners tribe. This to me stank of viral marketing and I believe is what ticked off everyone else. A few years ago, someone promoted a "Domebuilding Workshop and Introduction to the Landmark Forum" and received a similar response. --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:39:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a9ae9038-1a74-44ac-88e7-6ea3a3f3e094 rodent 2007-11-21T19:39:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#67e7c45b-9c76-43a0-aaa3-bd1d2b61b6ab Actually, I am finding this thread more interesting than most on this tribe as of late.. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:38:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#67e7c45b-9c76-43a0-aaa3-bd1d2b61b6ab Elaine~ 2007-11-21T19:38:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8db3974b-902a-4020-b9b5-73f914e2fe56 Backpedel in a wheelchair was only the icing to this shit cake: "as a handicapped person id think youd have an intimate understanding of the danger of the impact of blanket statements about groups of people" I don't like anyone, under any circumstances defining my experiences. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:35:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8db3974b-902a-4020-b9b5-73f914e2fe56 Crypto 2007-11-21T19:35:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0ce0f1fb-d984-4532-b82c-122aba235220 I get your point now neon. Thank you for expressing it. Yes people put out tribes all the time and cross list. It was more of a thread to see if there were other landmark "graduates" here with a link. A shortened one is here - http://burningwoman.tribe.net/thread/292fddf4-f7e8-467e-b968-6de2425ec3d1 There was no topic which seemed odd to me. That one or several became of that post should be welcomed, not suppressed. It is a discussion group afterall. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:22:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0ce0f1fb-d984-4532-b82c-122aba235220 Tia 2007-11-21T19:22:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#403d37cb-525a-4158-b439-d3d7dc962cad "in retrospect, I can see why my backpedal in a wheelchair comment may have come across as sounding harsh or especially insulting.. " Yeah, hindsight IS 20/20...'cept you haven't even thought about an apology. "i just dont like to be misunderstood" What was there to misunderstand? Fucktard. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:21:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#403d37cb-525a-4158-b439-d3d7dc962cad Rhino 2007-11-21T19:21:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5cdf993c-a54d-4567-8a9e-56a14762a099 "The Secret is like Amway for the soul" Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:18:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5cdf993c-a54d-4567-8a9e-56a14762a099 Hummingbird 2007-11-21T19:18:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#624d1dba-f89c-44a5-a53b-e3a8bbe7d876 "As PT Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute". And two to take him! Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:09:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#624d1dba-f89c-44a5-a53b-e3a8bbe7d876 Justin 2007-11-21T19:09:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b56a07ab-6355-4b51-841d-0133f7df4dad <<On a side note, how would you all feel if someone popped in and promoted a tribe "militaryrecrutmentforburners" in a similarly innocen...>> It would depend on how they reacted to the responses. If people protested and they immediately took down their thread and left, I would be fine with that and would see no need for continued threads about how they are coming after us. However: The more accurate analogy would be if someone came on tribe, and this has actually happened, and said, "Hey, are there any burners here who have been in the military? There's a new tribe starting, click on this link..." In fact, this has happened numerous times, I'm sure you remember..."Hey there's a new tribe for burners who are grieving", "There's a new tribe for burners who live in upstate New York", "There's a new tribe for burners who don't like the Burning Man tribe". As evidenced by this thread, there are burners who have taken landmark, and I see nothing wrong with someone letting us know there is a tribe for this combo. I don't need to read the links about landmark, I know what it is, I know the pros and cons, I went to a course and ran from there as fast as I could. But this woman didn't come here to recruit for landmark...she came here to find burners who had already taken the course, and liked it, to join her Tribe. I see nothing wrong with that. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:03:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b56a07ab-6355-4b51-841d-0133f7df4dad Neon 2007-11-21T19:03:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#13402103-80bb-4dfa-bacc-394ad6fc03d9 'The OP realized that her inquiry about Landmark was not welcome here. So she removed it and left. I feel that was responsive and respectful. Now you guys go on and on about "they" this and "they" that, like "they" were trying to get us burners' Clearly cultish behavior, trying to isolate this community from others. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:54:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#13402103-80bb-4dfa-bacc-394ad6fc03d9 Peter 2007-11-21T18:54:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#6a5c2f21-ea4a-4658-b29d-c70b66d9a6a2 "before cult idiots could define her by her means of locomotion. " woah... when did that happen? I may have some heads to bite off. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:51:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#6a5c2f21-ea4a-4658-b29d-c70b66d9a6a2 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-21T18:51:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0fdcd99-c6da-45f0-87d1-eafeb3672b8f I expressed my own thoughts about landmark. The only hostility that was shown was towards t, who was absolutely insulting towards crypto even while she maintained a level of decorum like no other. "we" attacked back. It's possible this is the mob mentality however I see that a bit more gray than negative or would not have participated. The original poster removed their post from this tribe, not from the seven or eight others. As soon as a single post is cross posted to several bm related tribes, I think it's a fair conclusion that the group is being pushed. Even users of the program have made it pretty clear that the marketing can be aggressive. In this thread, the marketing wasn't my problem with it. Connecting with others who are seeking or have experienced the same thing is also a fair conclusion to draw from the initial posts. My problem was some person who believed it was acceptable to insult someone based on their physical status as if there were no other dialog happening. Note - it's couldn't care less - still a fucktard. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:30:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0fdcd99-c6da-45f0-87d1-eafeb3672b8f Tia 2007-11-21T18:30:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#288c6005-d566-4be1-9f54-9f055bb81fe1 In my opinion, look before you leap. Know a little something about what you're about to get involved in. Per request, here are the two links I posted in the other deleted threads. Documentary about Landmark, in french with english subtitles... http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1243&Itemid=12url and an Australian news report that uses some footage of the french documentary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilv39oLOss On a side note, how would you all feel if someone popped in and promoted a tribe "militaryrecrutmentforburners" in a similarly innocent fasion? --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:16:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#288c6005-d566-4be1-9f54-9f055bb81fe1 rodent 2007-11-21T18:16:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1c725971-71e7-4e04-bfa9-02523efd6b7d Did you even bother to read my original response to you? I don’t need to read through the links, I have personal experience with Landmark. I have watched friends go through the Landmark program and have watched their lives change for the better. I first was drawn to Landmark because I was witnessed these changes in my friends. Every organization that deals with large quantities of people will have its detractors, every charity, every educational entity, every religious organization. There are people who don’t like the Boy Scouts, the Red Cross, Goodwill, the NRA, AARP, YMCA, and Burning Man. I know that Landmark has its detractors. I have seen the people who have had awful experiences in The Forum. I have watched them struggle with what the program brings up in them, they are unequipped and unwilling to deal with their own shit. You are very willing to take the word of people that you have absolutely no connection with, and not listen to someone in your own community, who has personal experience. You give them automatic veracity because they have a link. I can’t believe that you want to compare Landmark Education (their full corporate name) to the Church of Scientology. Apples and oranges. The Church of Scientology is just that, a CHURCH, a registered religious organization. You have to pay to join and be a member, you have to tithe part of your income, and most importantly, they have a dogma that tells you what you can and cannot do in your personal life. Landmark Education is a private for profit educational organization. There is no religious or spiritual content in the Landmark program. They do not charge a membership fee, they do not charge for anything except their workshops, which are reasonably priced and have good content and value. Most importantly, they have no dogma, don’t tell you how to live your life, and don’t care what you do when you complete their program. There is no lifelong or extended relationship with Landmark. When you have completed their three courses, you are done. You walk away and go live your life. I have not heard from them since the day I completed the SELP (Self Expression and Leadership Program) 4 years ago. Yes, Landmark makes a profit. Why shouldn’t they? They spend a lot of money developing and presenting their product. Why should they be held to a higher ideal than other organizations? Want to go to college? You have to pay. Want a tutor for your child? You have to pay. Want the Red Cross to teach you CPR or first aid? You have to pay. Want to take a workshop or swim at your local community center? You have to pay. As I said above, Landmark programs are reasonably priced and are a good value. I spent 30 years in the business world. The corporations that I worked for sent me to dozens of educational workshops, and presentations by motivational and organizational speakers. Most of these programs cost 2 – 3 times the total amount of money that I spent going through all three of Landmark’s programs. I got more out of the Landmark program than I got out of all of the other programs combined. I will say this, I did not particularly enjoy my experience in the Landmark Forum. It was tiring and stressful, and much of the content I had already figured out in my personal life. I also did not like the pushiness of the volunteers. When I completed The Forum, I was not inclined to continue with Landmark’s Advanced Course. Several months later, a friend of mine told me “The only reason to take the Forum was to get to the Advanced Course.” I took him at his word and signed up for the Advanced Course. He was right. The Forum is only groundwork, the real value in the Landmark program is in the Advanced Course and the SELP. Someone who has only gone through The Forum and then dropped out has no right or basis to judge the entire Landmark Program. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:54:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1c725971-71e7-4e04-bfa9-02523efd6b7d Bugjon 2007-11-21T17:54:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#eed3c7f7-ab37-4b52-b302-fe163d431647 in retrospect, I can see why my backpedal in a wheelchair comment may have come across as sounding harsh or especially insulting.. the fact of the matter is that I would have made the same type of 'backpedal' jab towards anyone. if crypto was on a skateboard, i would have said can you backpedal on a skateboard, if she were on a bike, i would have said can you backpedal on your bike, etc etc. so believe what you want, but i'm clarifying what my intention was with the comments i made.. if it makes anyone feel any better about it, i could really care less; i just dont like to be misunderstood. as far as other people's thinly veiled threats, from following me from tribe to tribe, to turning me into some sort of hat, i thought these were all pretty funny, if you have any more of them, please post them. in the meantime i'll just keep feeling completely unthreatened. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:53:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#eed3c7f7-ab37-4b52-b302-fe163d431647 t 2007-11-21T17:53:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3fb76260-61d3-4955-b819-f7e0aa4068fa I understand where you're coming from, Neon. Landmark has never made any approach towards me. Hence, I have no opinion about them. I do, however, believe that self-improvement starts with me. The woman didn't wrong me. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:16:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3fb76260-61d3-4955-b819-f7e0aa4068fa Rhino 2007-11-21T17:16:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7cc2e137-bac6-48ff-b2da-15332833fdf3 I wasn't talking about T at all. That's a separate issue altogether. I'm talking about this: <<Well, this isn't the first time I've seen LMF marketed to burners, and that's what they're trying to do. Trawl for burners wallets.>> <<If they want to go to war with me I'll happily tear them to pieces in the public square that is this forum.>> <<they do seem to shy away from discussions of their product. They only want venues where they can control the discussion. Another hallmark of a cult/scam group.>> <<It's all part of a sales push for their latest & greatest course, something called SELP: >> While I understand that some of this is valid discussion about Landmark, it has nothing to do with what happened here. What happened here was that someone came here looking for other burners who had done landmark, then saw that a number of people didn't like that she asked and then she left. I see nothing wrong with her behavior, both for asking and for leaving. I also think it's find to express negative feelings about landmark and to question whether or not it is a cult...but don't act like this woman wronged us somehow, as is evident in the above examples. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:52:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7cc2e137-bac6-48ff-b2da-15332833fdf3 Neon 2007-11-21T16:52:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#76900573-4beb-456c-9860-1fb8a8ad6fca Whoa. WTF? The hostility started when 't' insulted Crypto. On that, you'll find that Kamikaze, grouchosuave, Tia, Strawberry, and myself got pissed off on that. The main BM tribe, in my humble opinion, is not necessarily the best place to seek new people for your tribe. Some call it 'fishing" for folks. I call it 'trolling'. If you'll notice, 't' never was a stand-up type of guy to apologize to Crypto. What you're seeing is not mob mentality, it's a pissed off community - and rightfully so. It's not about Landmark any more. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:42:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#76900573-4beb-456c-9860-1fb8a8ad6fca Rhino 2007-11-21T16:42:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b339eb6f-b984-43d2-b9b1-19f3f3a68ba9 I feel disappointed in a lot you guys. The OP realized that her inquiry about Landmark was not welcome here. So she removed it and left. I feel that was responsive and respectful. Now you guys go on and on about "they" this and "they" that, like "they" were trying to get us burners. And I saw very clearly that it was one person, that she wasn't proselytizing, that she was just looking for people for her tribe (like people occasionally do here) and that she left when she saw the hostility. Okay. Why can't anyone notice the respect therein? Why is everyone acting like victims and banding together as if WE are in a cult? I personally don't like Landmark, but I equally don't like the mob mentality that I see here. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:21:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#b339eb6f-b984-43d2-b9b1-19f3f3a68ba9 Neon 2007-11-21T16:21:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5d50c246-c56b-4081-95cf-7ea5f8b71501 I understood Garimo completely. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5d50c246-c56b-4081-95cf-7ea5f8b71501 Tia 2007-11-21T15:55:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4ed71150-fc7a-482b-bbe6-8d3f6206747e Does anyone know what garimo's talking about? 'Cuz he lost me pretty soon after he started. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:50:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4ed71150-fc7a-482b-bbe6-8d3f6206747e MdJGutie 2007-11-21T15:50:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#23f76124-aceb-43b4-8408-be9f2c377422 Hey t, me and my campmates are interested in Landmark. Maybe you could visit us on the playa. We could show you how to turn your ASS into a nice playa hat. Douchenozzle. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:39:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#23f76124-aceb-43b4-8408-be9f2c377422 Kurt 2007-11-21T14:39:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#786e9aeb-418f-402e-93de-798c24f955a6 My cat's breath smells like cat food. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:36:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#786e9aeb-418f-402e-93de-798c24f955a6 K'Buster 2007-11-21T08:36:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d92762e7-b5b9-40f9-ba37-bf9d8337f8ae Of corse if ya are only interested in the most negative dirt on any one, then go with rick ross, 'cuz he's got the dirt! files on burning man too. Another possibility with no illusion of authority to consider fas a possible informative resource might be: http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratings.htm I've always considered DPW to be a cult. ...not that I think anything is wrong with that. I know living people evolve and reshape themselves and their social structures. My past (over a period of 25 years now) and present has a changing/evolving connection with a group of individuals that people here are dismissive of as a cult. But I can understand how they reach such a judgment when it's based on limited information. Unfortunately though for some limited information is enough. But for myself, I'm grateful that I've experianced/lived the excitement of emotional and mental experimentation... I mean why not? I could have just fucked up my life with drugs and alcohol like the majority of the other self-righteous... But instead I've been able to travel around the world with a band of spiritual gypsies, while traveling through states of emotional, spiritual, mental consciousness. I lived through a groups spiritual phase that with rapid growth of the group moved into very public stage of a cultish group with a very out spoken and controversial leader. The only man who has been deported from 22 countries without having committed a crime. He liked being called a spiritual terrorist. He's been dead 18 years and it is of great interest to me that people here are still talking about him... He was THE attention whore! During those years we some called us "followers" (like the media and the media parrots who just repeat what they hear without knowing what they say) while we saw ourselves as fellow travelers" we did experiance/live what happens and what it feels like to surrender up responsibility and authority to a leadership. And for me having learned that it's a two sided coin, extremely hard and extremely exhilarating at the same time... but fun only for a while... not the best life in the long run. I learned in those days what is was that Lord Acton meant when he said "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" But I don't think he had it quite right. It's more like human nature IS corrupt, and the power only exposes it. Now days I don't think it much matters who's having some power, I know that they have their shit too. I just remember not to give up any of my own power and self authority... that way we can be corrupt together and celebrate our divinity together. No leaders, no followers, just fellow travelers wandering through life. Nobody has the road map that gets through it, but some have traveled places I've yet to travel... and sometimes it's safer traveling with a guide if you can find one you have some trust for. I don't feel too damaged by a portion of my life in a cult. Not enjoying life less than those I see around me, not being medicated. Not having to diminish the lives of others to feel alive in my own. I think I'm okay, & doing good. how are you? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:42:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d92762e7-b5b9-40f9-ba37-bf9d8337f8ae $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-21T07:42:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c54326a8-0521-4e24-9f53-5f309527c0ce HunnyDu...I have 'the secret.' The secret to all your problems, and the root of your salvation. Go look in the bathroom mirror. The person you see is your best friend, and your worst enemy. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 03:52:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c54326a8-0521-4e24-9f53-5f309527c0ce Rhino 2007-11-21T03:52:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#552d65a1-c6d9-40da-a980-c8242768b37b As You wish. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 03:21:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#552d65a1-c6d9-40da-a980-c8242768b37b Kamikaze 2007-11-21T03:21:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a15b77cc-1690-409a-bba6-bac3e81d3351 everyone step away from your keyboards. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 03:12:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a15b77cc-1690-409a-bba6-bac3e81d3351 Strawberry 2007-11-21T03:12:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#44db22de-fbd0-496f-a481-7dcc4ddb3c1d >>>The Landmark courses are extremely stressful and demanding, mentally, emotionally, and even physically. There is a vast amount of information presented in a very short amount of time. The days are long. They start very early in the morning and go to 10:00 or midnight. Lack of sleep adds to the stress. <<< This made me think of this linkee. Not all on this list apply, but enough seem to touch on certain aspects. https://www.elca.org/youth/helpsheets/cult.html#mindcontrol I am not going to say LM is a cult, cause I don't know but I have some friends who have changed in some startlingly odd ways because of this program. Good or bad, the jury is still out for me on that... However, there is something about this organization that just rings the alarm bells with me and they have only become louder with the research I have done. But that is just my opinion. If someone can take the information they need from this group and run with it without getting sucked in, then that is awesome. Sounds like Bugjon is one of those people. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:28:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#44db22de-fbd0-496f-a481-7dcc4ddb3c1d Elaine~ 2007-11-21T02:28:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ca21dac6-b2cc-446e-a246-482ad8bce7dd "Listen, Idiot of Cults. Crypto is the MOST reasonable and well balanced posters I find here. " ...and I'd bet a good chunk of change that she would have said the exact same thing three years ago, you know, before cult idiots could define her by her means of locomotion. .. and KK how did you quote that guys post before he posted it? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:25:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ca21dac6-b2cc-446e-a246-482ad8bce7dd MdJGutie 2007-11-21T02:25:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4a573791-6fd2-4754-bd01-a80952e4075a Bugjon wrote: > So what if they charge? > So what if someone is making money. > They are a business, and by definition, business > are out to make money. > > The important thing is that they give value for > that money. > Since when did helping others become about making money? If it has value, donations will support. If it is a Cult, they will establish Institutions. Please tell me how Landmark is any different from Scientology. Have you read ANY of the links?? Are you too brainwashed to respond to specific critiques and have a rational conversation??? KK Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:21:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#4a573791-6fd2-4754-bd01-a80952e4075a Kamikaze 2007-11-21T02:21:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8c603eab-e5f0-463b-a438-b6d18514c21b Cult or Scam? I have a Secret. Will you buy? It's worth it! It's called 'Wake the Fuck UP! We are ALL Enlightened Masters!!' opps. I gave it away. KK Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:16:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8c603eab-e5f0-463b-a438-b6d18514c21b Kamikaze 2007-11-21T02:16:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e7906d8a-e3a2-4db2-aaa6-5658ce670bdc I took the Landmark courses all the way through the Self Expression and Leadership course (SELP). I have at least 18-20 friends, friends before Landmark, who also went through the courses. I received tools from Landmark that have been very valuable in my life. I watched all of my friends have improvement in their lives through the Landmark courses The communication skills that they teach, are worth the price of admission alone. Landmark for me was a stepping off place for a more powerful life. All of the people that I knew before Landmark, who took the courses, have benefited from them and have a higher quality of life. I'm sure that none of them regret going through the program. Landmark has a mission. They believe that the world would be a better place if 20 million people took their basic course, The Forum. I'm going to tell you right up front that the world would be a much better place if that happened. Think about a world where people dealt with each other with open honest communication and integrity. The problem with Landmark is that they are pushy about it. Such is often the case with People on a mission. Also, they are dependent on volunteers to coordinate their programs, and the volunteers get over zealous and aggressive. This aggressiveness is against Landmark policy, but happens because the volunteers are so into the program that they get carried away. The reason that they get carried away is because theey have experienced positive change in their lives through the Landmark program. Of course, it is the people that the program has helped the most that get carried away the most. I have seen these people chastised by the Landmark leaders for their over zealousness. Landmark is not a cult. There is no aspect of religion. They never ask for money outside of the fees for their workshops. Those fees are well within the range of the workshop fees charged by other self-help and inspirational speakers and organizations, and you get good value and content for your money. Also, you are free to come and go as you please. The only things that Landmark absolutely demands from it's participants is a very high level of communications and integrity. The Landmark courses are extremely stressful and demanding, mentally, emotionally, and even physically. There is a vast amount of information presented in a very short amount of time. The days are long. They start very early in the morning and go to 10:00 or midnight. Lack of sleep adds to the stress. As with any program, there are going to be people who have problems with it. I'm going to tell you that these problems are most likely with those people and not Landmark. Some people are just not equipped to handle the stress and demands of the program. In each of the three courses that I took from them, there were people who dropped out after the first or second day. As for my own experience with Landmark, I refused to play into their sense of urgency. I refused to recruit my friends and told them to fuck off when they got pushy about it, and they backed off. When friends noticed that I was changing for the better and asked why I told them. Several of them subsequently took the Forum and benefited from it, as well. After 30 years in the business world, I took the SELP course,and learned valuable management and organizational skills that I hadn't even dreamed of. The emphasis of the SELP is working to improve your community. Every participant has to put together and implement a project that benefits their community. Landmark taught me how to develop and organize the project, recruit people to help put it together, and how to raise the money to fund the project. I have had no contact with Landmark for 4 years. They have not called me or contacted me in any way. Landmark was stepping off place for me. Using the tools that I got from them, I have become extremely powerful and have manifested an incredible life. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:14:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e7906d8a-e3a2-4db2-aaa6-5658ce670bdc Bugjon 2007-11-21T02:14:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#6c3e7c90-9082-4d31-9e44-6979ed098f72 A typical response...of MANY!!! "Landmark has a mission. They believe that the world would be a better place if 20 million people took their basic course" > Your 20 minutes of research against my personal > experience with Landmark. > > I took the Landmark courses all the way through > the Self Expression and Leadership course (SELP). > I have at least 18-20 friends, friends before > Landmark, who also went through the courses. > I received tools from Landmark that have been > very valuable in my life. I watched all of my > friends have improvement in their lives through > the Landmark courses The communication skills > that they teach, are worth the price of > admission alone. > > Landmark for us was a stepping off place for a > more powerful life. > > Landmark has a mission. They believe that the > world would be a better place if 20 million > people took their basic course, The Forum. I'm > going to tell you right up front that the world > would be a much better place if that happened. > > The problem with Landmark is that they are pushy > about it. Such is often the case with People on > a mission. Also, they are dependent on > volunteers to coordinate their programs, and the > volunteers get over zealous and aggressive. This > aggressiveness is against Landmark policy, but > happens because the volunteers are so into the > program that they get carried away. The reason > that they get carried away is because theey have > experienced positive change in their lives > through the Landmark program. Of course, it is > the people that the program has helped the most > that get carried away the most. I have seen > these people chastised by the Landmark leaders > for their over zealousness. > > Landmark is not a cult. There is no aspect of > religion. They never ask for money outside of > the fees for their workshops. Those fees are > well within the range of the workshop fees > charged by other self-help and inspirational > speakers and organizations, and you get good > value and content for your money. Also, you are > free to come and go as you please. > > The only things that Landmark absolutely demands > from it's participants is a very high level of > communications and integrity. > > The Landmark courses are extremely stressful and > demanding, mentally, emotionally, and even > physically. There is a vast amount of > information presented in a very short amount of > time. The days are long. They start very early > in the morning and go to 10:00 or midnight. Lack > of sleep adds to the stress. > > You have sent a bunch of links to sites of > people who have issues with Landmark. I'm going > to tell you that the problems are most likely > with those people and not Landmark. Some people > are just not equipped to handle the stress and > demands of the program. In each of the three > courses that I took from them, there were people > who dropped out after the first or second day. > > As for my own experience with Landmark, I refuse > to play into their sense of urgency. I refused > to recruit my friends and told them to fuck off > when they got pushy about it, and they backed > off. When friends noticed that I was changing > and asked why I told them. Several of them > subsequently took the Forum and benefited from > it, as well. > > After 30 years in the business world, I took the > SELP course,and learned valuable management and > organizational skills that I hadn't even dreamed > of. > > I have had no contact with Landmark for 4 years. > They have not called me or contacted me in any > way. Landmark was stepping off place for me. > Using the tools that I got from them, I have > become extremely powerful and have manifested an > incredible life. > > Check out my Blog. See where I have gotten using > the Landmark tools. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:14:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#6c3e7c90-9082-4d31-9e44-6979ed098f72 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T02:14:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#11373a51-cc9f-456c-a19b-7584b947e234 Love you crypto....gets all mushy cause this chick rocks! Ok, no more cheesy hippie;-) Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:44:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#11373a51-cc9f-456c-a19b-7584b947e234 Tia 2007-11-21T01:44:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2b2cf1b1-b2f7-4307-bfa9-91e3f8293259 See, Your logic here is flawed. Can someone make the same argument about BM. Yes. They do. Many on this tribe do. Big whoop. In your hypo of a limited exposure to Landmark with only negative results being seen, sure they would have a tilted perception. However, NO ONE has said that their only experience was that. You ASSUMED that because we disagree with your pitch. It is a pitch afterall. Witch hunting. Is that like sacrificing babies? LMFAO. So transparent. My logic is that this program is more like a cult than a self-improvement program. It is indoctrination. You are demonstrating that here by twisting words, insulting people (crypto, the tribe with spam, the lack of a connection to BM, the lack of answering questions put to you). And then there's the loaded witch hunt n sacrificing babies bs. For the record, I never stated we should only support those things which *always* produce good results for all involved. We should however be wary/skeptical of anyone trying to sell their ideology while not answering simple questions. I am skeptical about anything which revolves around the thought "even if not everyone was able to get that out of the program". It implies those that had harm come to them because of this organization are defective. I call bullshit. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:42:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2b2cf1b1-b2f7-4307-bfa9-91e3f8293259 Tia 2007-11-21T01:42:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#63ac3d70-09b2-4b3b-bd4c-4ed254ff468f True that. But the fucker hit a nerve. Onward. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:34:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#63ac3d70-09b2-4b3b-bd4c-4ed254ff468f grouchosuave 2007-11-21T01:34:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#79f55a04-1ff0-41a4-9214-f71c2bcd08af you know what my mom said to me about my brother? "if you ignore him...he'll go away." she was always right. i say ignore this Fuck calling himself t. (cause i have a tendency to bludgeon when pushed...and i'm feelin' pushed) he's thriving on the response...evidently he doesn't have a life. huzzah and happy trails, t. that's my two cents. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:26:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#79f55a04-1ff0-41a4-9214-f71c2bcd08af Strawberry 2007-11-21T01:26:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#72043f80-9b8b-4347-92da-cc0968ea01c3 And the woman is still trying to address your points HEADON in spite of the sidestepping and insults. Ahhhh, critical thinking . . . and balls, errrr, "gravitas" Take a lesson. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:26:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#72043f80-9b8b-4347-92da-cc0968ea01c3 grouchosuave 2007-11-21T01:26:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a91e05f2-5ccc-4fe4-802c-d2166850a01e And now, rereading the whole thing, I think I was too lenient. I'm humbled and honored every time that Crypto even responds to one of my threads. Crypto is the epitome of what we ALL need to be inside......resourceful...dead-on honest...loving....feeling..... The more I think about it, t....the more I think you are in need of SERIOUS psychological intervention. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:13:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a91e05f2-5ccc-4fe4-802c-d2166850a01e Rhino 2007-11-21T01:13:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#86039c57-7ff7-4848-920c-7c06503b7780 I recently heard an interview with a man who still felt that his time in the People's Temple was the best time of his life. I can belive it. And I don't think he was stupid or faking it or whatever. My point is simply that despite anyone it helps, it uses techniques that are cultish and whatever you got out of it, other people have suffered enough to outweigh that simple gain you could have got anywhere. Because the do help some only makes them more dangerous. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:05:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#86039c57-7ff7-4848-920c-7c06503b7780 Crypto 2007-11-21T01:05:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9ae21bf6-e514-4058-b6c8-ad49b0db7c74 Some research. 20 minutes on the web. I saw even better links posted on previous Threads, like the French Expose, but that Thread is gone. Heres a few things to ponder. WARNING! If you do not have an open mind and are an Advocate of Landmark/EST the following links may damage your belief in giving money to Self-Proclaimed Guru's! The following material should be read by ADULTS only!!! http://myownmind.com/lmstory.cfm http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=30430. http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html http://www.rickross.com/groups/forum.html http://skepdic.com/landmark.html http://www.xenu.net/ http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/landmark.htm http://forum.rickross.com/?f=4 20 Minutes. I wonder what a day of research would find... KK Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:05:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9ae21bf6-e514-4058-b6c8-ad49b0db7c74 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T01:05:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e3197b3c-2125-47ad-aec5-e4e933d4c2a1 "I explicitly stated that whether it helps someone is irrelevant. It does more harm than good. I've seen the damage first hand." cant someone make the same argument(though theyd be wrong) about burning man? lets say someone whos only contact with it was that their friends went, one got raped, one got beat up, another got his bike stolen, and the other lost his noodle, would probably sound a lot like you guys sound. well I dont think its irrelevant, at all. and since when do we go on a witch hunt for something, just because there's been some negative results? by your own logic, we should only support or allow things that have only good results. i think that ridiculous, actually. im not saying its great, or even good, for everyone, my only point is that we cant make blanket statements about things that i KNOW have helped people, even if not everyone was able to get that out of the program. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:00:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#e3197b3c-2125-47ad-aec5-e4e933d4c2a1 t 2007-11-21T01:00:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0d7e93b-adcb-4393-94b7-bfd2f62ec550 "can you backpedal in a wheelchair? " Wow. That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard someone say on this tribe. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:48:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c0d7e93b-adcb-4393-94b7-bfd2f62ec550 Danger Angel 2007-11-21T00:48:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#826e7ac6-7e0c-4189-b981-6da9109fa80c 't'' is a poor excuse of a man. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:44:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#826e7ac6-7e0c-4189-b981-6da9109fa80c Hummingbird 2007-11-21T00:44:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0e70a88c-e83f-4895-8c63-a98557c008ca t, I think Tia's right...you are a fucktard. And the 'sacrificing babies' bit....that is a straw man. Go to your silly-assed Landmark Forum cult. And fuckin' STAY THERE. Self-improvement is exactly that. SELF - improvement. Emphasis added so that you can see it. You take the very best from experiences that you've had and those others have had,. and THEN and only then do you have the tools to SELF improve. No group needed. RADICAL FUCKIN' SELF RELIANCE. If I have to add much more to this, I might REALLY get pissed. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:38:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0e70a88c-e83f-4895-8c63-a98557c008ca Rhino 2007-11-21T00:38:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c4c049eb-3fa4-4184-a336-6a8b6aba6704 kk, I couldn't help it. No more though. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:37:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c4c049eb-3fa4-4184-a336-6a8b6aba6704 Tia 2007-11-21T00:37:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a13f381a-43d4-4355-bbe2-dc5d030b0de7 you are truly an ignorant if you cannot re-read what you posted and see why that is offensive and insulting. Using someone's physical state as some sort of underhanded statement of what they "should" understand. It's bullshit and you know it. Crypto is a she btw. Yes. People in here work. Do you? Questioning an institution does not equal labeling people as individuals. A group of people are not considered individuals, in other words people. The institution is its own entity with people who join for different reasons. Pay different amounts. Believe different things. The organization encourages people to isolate themselves amongst others "just like them" and recruit others into the program. This is done by both questioning reality but also delving into more cultish elements of eliminating identity in order to create a new identity and new life. These are all cultish in nature. If you cannot see that can be a valid opinion, you have not taken day one - listening. No one said (that I saw) anything about sacrificing babies. Making adults into babies perhaps. How do I find time to research this? Like all groups like yours, I dive in and educate myself. This isn't the first time we've heard of landmark/est or other groups. This is not the first time we've played along with the indoctrinate/recruit element either. I explicitly stated that whether it helps someone is irrelevant. It does more harm than good. I've seen the damage first hand. Is it audit time or something? Papa needs more money for a new lawyer before the quarter ends? Why did this topic show up on 7 or 8 tribes in one day? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:36:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a13f381a-43d4-4355-bbe2-dc5d030b0de7 Tia 2007-11-21T00:36:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f1eef70d-6222-4397-a320-91b22597a504 Ohhh, t... You just make me...sad. Sorry to feed the Troll. KK clear and out Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:33:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f1eef70d-6222-4397-a320-91b22597a504 Kamikaze 2007-11-21T00:33:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7fc0a2dc-3f7d-4295-8c81-d62a9e30839f "sacrificing babies" Nice straw man there. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:30:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#7fc0a2dc-3f7d-4295-8c81-d62a9e30839f Crypto 2007-11-21T00:30:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#59dd856f-049e-4b49-894f-bcf42ee337eb "Maybe you just insulted one of the MOST open minded, strong, and intelligent people you'd ever have the chance to cross paths with." please tell me how? "Labeling a group isn't labeling people." is a group of people not considered people? im interested in this concept you're going with.. can you please clarify it, the way Crypto was able to clarify his previous statement? "There is a cult mentality within landmark that is beyond well documented." sure, just like theres a cult mentality in the military, on sports teams. sure, in some groups it might be more dangerous than others but.. even so, lets say there is a cult mentality, fine. how about the aspects of that group that arent part of this 'cult mentality.' surely not everyone in Landmark is sacrificing babies? are you seriously implying that no benefit has come out of Landmark? I ask you the same question.. where did you find the time to research this? does anyone here work?? Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:22:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#59dd856f-049e-4b49-894f-bcf42ee337eb t 2007-11-21T00:22:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a8ef30e1-46c1-4c74-a62f-ebc820fe231b She was rather clear. If you are an example of the clarilty and acceptance that LF provides, I'd say you just proved her points. And let's be clear. I'm not threatening you, But if you pulled your pathetic insulting shit in person, your feet wouldn't be touching the floor as I escorted you out the door by your throat. Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:09:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a8ef30e1-46c1-4c74-a62f-ebc820fe231b grouchosuave 2007-11-21T00:09:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#727233b6-d919-4217-a1df-5d2e8435312b As PT Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute". Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:59:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#727233b6-d919-4217-a1df-5d2e8435312b Bobzilla 2007-11-20T23:59:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d74450d9-5e52-4dc8-a9cf-86cc03a399c0 the whole topic is for sure a slippery slope. what makes something a cult? What makes a cult different from a religion? Shinto is the cult of Japan, but they dont drink magic kool-aid. Why does an idea cost money? Why would I pay people like Tony Robbins or John Gray or Dr. Phil for an idea? Whats the Secret, and how do you put a price tag on it? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:46:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d74450d9-5e52-4dc8-a9cf-86cc03a399c0 HunnyDu 2007-11-20T23:46:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c2783a47-69b5-43f1-a116-21841cd7b369 fucktard - Maybe you just insulted one of the MOST open minded, strong, and intelligent people you'd ever have the chance to cross paths with. Labeling a group isn't labeling people. There is a cult mentality within landmark that is beyond well documented. Whether it helps someone is totally beside the point. Other cult leaders have arguably helped do the same during their training/seminars/whatchamacallit/get togethers. Sad you went all personal with it. Shows how much you've learned. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:38:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c2783a47-69b5-43f1-a116-21841cd7b369 Tia 2007-11-20T23:38:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#24621539-3e8f-4be7-888d-4c59f46f524e hey whats up hunnydu havent seen you in a long time :) but to clarify.. from what ive, there is nothing spiritual taught in any of the landmark seminars. people can love it or leave it.. the only issue that i had with what was being said was that there seemed to be some presumption that it was some destructive entity which didnt help anyone, and that is absolutely not the case. guns kill lots of people.. they also allow others to hunt(and eat), or defend themselves.. so are all guns bad? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:19:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#24621539-3e8f-4be7-888d-4c59f46f524e t 2007-11-20T23:19:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#33a161f6-026c-42e2-8c13-a44962d2a4e9 ohhh, t....you didn't... Listen, Idiot of Cults. Crypto is the MOST reasonable and well balanced posters I find here. To use her current status as a sly put down is simply unacceptable, Asswipe. Pick on me instead. I am a certifiable Asshole and will follow you through Tribe after Tribe with your insensitive manipulative remarks while posting Source Cites of valid research into exactly WHY Landmark is considered a Cult you shit for brains unthinking prole of a money making scam half a step removed from Scientology. You'd better get down on your knees and cry 'Hail, Xenu' five times begging Crpto's forgiveness while facing East cause my boot is coming from the West. Have a nice day, ohh user of cripples. I'd really insult you, but I'm a bit outraged by your comments right now. KK Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:16:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#33a161f6-026c-42e2-8c13-a44962d2a4e9 Kamikaze 2007-11-20T23:16:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0abac807-7f3f-41c9-b778-ff9737ca4a95 I missed out on the landmark forum bullshit, but I did go on the website. Let me just say that any spiritual journey that can be paid in monthly installments makes me smell a rat. I went to college in mendocino. Not far from where Jim Jones got started in Redwood Valley. The devastation from Jonestown is still felt there, decades later. Many residents have a " Never Again" attitude. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:10:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0abac807-7f3f-41c9-b778-ff9737ca4a95 HunnyDu 2007-11-20T23:10:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#76ea3c6f-9b6c-462c-a4d9-7d570f178dee Landmark is not a cult. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:56:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#76ea3c6f-9b6c-462c-a4d9-7d570f178dee Bugjon 2007-11-20T22:56:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#cb1913d9-2542-4d97-91a9-97a935f65973 cool, a blanket statement to clarify a previous blanket statement. well, at least we're clear on how you feel! Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:52:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#cb1913d9-2542-4d97-91a9-97a935f65973 t 2007-11-20T22:52:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d2aec2fe-59ea-4df4-9741-af8ee4b3ce7f As I stated before, old Berkeley. Since the 70s I've seen cults come and go. Synanon, Rashneesh, that Guru who looked like Marc Bolan, Da Free John, Hari Krishna, People's Temple, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, Your Black Muslim Bakery, the list goes on. These nasty, charismatic gurus colonize people's minds with poisonous memes, leaving behind a trail of destruction for members, for families of members, for critics, and for neighbors caught in the cross fire. I would like to see all people making their own choices, they own mistakes and growing through that process. And you're a fuck for using my wheelchair status as a way to try and define my experience. (Bobzilla, I want your "you're dead to me" button. NOW!) Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:43:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#d2aec2fe-59ea-4df4-9741-af8ee4b3ce7f Crypto 2007-11-20T22:43:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2bf2d0cf-d531-4ec4-bfbe-98fafa3bc218 wow, it sounds like you've got it all figured out. but i wonder - how did find the time to meet everyone thats gone through the landmark forum, to find out if it had worked and what price they paid? or.. do you not work? as a handicapped person id think youd have an intimate understanding of the danger of the impact of blanket statements about groups of people. but, maybe i just misunderstood what you were trying to say. can you backpedal in a wheelchair? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:51:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#2bf2d0cf-d531-4ec4-bfbe-98fafa3bc218 t 2007-11-20T21:51:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#fd1b639e-f79b-49c3-8243-3c98709a0a5c poopy pants Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:19:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#fd1b639e-f79b-49c3-8243-3c98709a0a5c grouchosuave 2007-11-20T20:19:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1fdf0ff6-9291-4f5c-a873-6815b4305e27 I think it has helped people - but it has the same problem as evangellical christianity - it helps them, and then won't leave them alone. They'll call you relentlessly, I went to a LF "graduation" and refused to give them my phone #, because I remember the missionary methods of EST in the 70's. The once authentic experience of personal transformation has been distilled into a sales pitch and marketing patter. There's a certain similarity here with BM, but it's more pronounced in my experience at the AIDS Ride. When I worked there, they flew people from all the offices to Chicago where we were taught the new recruitment speech to get people to register for the ride (our teachers I later discovered were Forum trainers - at the time I only knew they were assholes). We were then flown to LA and tested on how well we did it "emotionally" - we weren't supposed to cry, but we were supposed to be clear of "baggage". About a year later when I to a friend's Landmark graduation, and the trainer gave the EXACT speech I learned for the AIDS Ride and 3 Day Breast Cancer Walk. I almost fell out of my chair. I had This was just another step in the AIDS Ride co-opting what had been a spontaneous emotional experience, turning into a corporate "value" and then marketing it. Basically it was emotional engineering - "you WILL have a transformational experience at this event". I found that annoying beyond anything I had ever experienced. The Forum does the same thing, thus making what is of value in the experience disingenuous. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:05:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1fdf0ff6-9291-4f5c-a873-6815b4305e27 Danger Angel 2007-11-20T20:05:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f645c14f-d9f5-49c3-a7ed-a6b7ecb3a3c0 I doubt it has helped anyone. Or if it has it's been at a high price, and I don't mean only monitarily. I may be a prissy purist in this reguard, but any cult and any cult leader deserves hatred. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:13:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f645c14f-d9f5-49c3-a7ed-a6b7ecb3a3c0 Crypto 2007-11-20T19:13:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9caa7517-2282-4df9-883e-096c42850473 If we are lucky, some day in the future people will scratch their head and ask; "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John-weren't they part of that band from the 1960's? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:58:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#9caa7517-2282-4df9-883e-096c42850473 Hummingbird 2007-11-20T18:58:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bc97029c-9778-4672-8d87-86d56403d2f3 why the hate? sure, its not for everyone(what is?).. i just dont need to see the need to bash something thats clearly helped some people, but also not helped others. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:57:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#bc97029c-9778-4672-8d87-86d56403d2f3 t 2007-11-20T18:57:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#60766f24-0626-487c-845c-67d94e3dce0b Not ambitios enough. They could have stuck Matthew, Mark and Luke in there with a shoehorn. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:50:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#60766f24-0626-487c-845c-67d94e3dce0b Crypto 2007-11-20T18:50:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#07180bb4-e20d-45cc-9eca-6f02f51d0d44 >"Christ. Naming your kid "St. John" is almost as bad as beating him. I'm just saying." Unless you exaggerate the name to the point of absurdity. For instance Brian Eno's real name is Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno. I think shortening it to Eno was a good idea. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:51:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#07180bb4-e20d-45cc-9eca-6f02f51d0d44 Badger 2007-11-20T15:51:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c4ffd857-ad21-4cbb-8f4b-e4fb4492555b I like the part about everybody giving their bodies to me. Here- you guys should all drink this Tang... IN SPACE! Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:30:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#c4ffd857-ad21-4cbb-8f4b-e4fb4492555b Jelly 2007-11-20T15:30:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#91f625e1-1727-4744-8df8-6250fac21ca4 "Christ. Naming your kid "St. John" is almost as bad as beating him. I'm just saying." Aahhhhhhhh haha *snort* Buh-Zingg!! Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:42:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#91f625e1-1727-4744-8df8-6250fac21ca4 grouchosuave 2007-11-20T13:42:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#30b2e5f9-394d-49b8-abf0-820555450efe try again: www.skepdic.com/landmark.html Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:09:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#30b2e5f9-394d-49b8-abf0-820555450efe Hummingbird 2007-11-20T13:09:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3ac9dfff-6122-467b-bd95-29b40f2d6fca Reposting link about Landmark, from The Skeptic's Dictionary. www.skepdic/landmark.html Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:07:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#3ac9dfff-6122-467b-bd95-29b40f2d6fca Hummingbird 2007-11-20T13:07:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#adacf577-5e1a-4c42-99e3-adbcea6fe58d Christ. Naming your kid "St. John" is almost as bad as beating him. I'm just saying. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:28:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#adacf577-5e1a-4c42-99e3-adbcea6fe58d Crypto 2007-11-20T11:28:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a6e52b57-9cf3-4e26-9789-5752c898e019 I Got It! I'm an asshole! I did the EST training when I was 11. There were some good things about it, but I couldn't get past the bad part, which was my mom used to volunteer with them until after midnight. And the people could be such assholes. Werner Erhard beat his kids. A friend of mine dated St. John Erhard. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:52:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a6e52b57-9cf3-4e26-9789-5752c898e019 Danger Angel 2007-11-20T10:52:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f0a2e093-129e-4379-a787-1d6a5ff0feac Posted to the earlier deleted threads here is the video "How to Start a Cult". Again, there are some parallels to Black Rock City or at least, how some theme camps are run. Kinda frightening really... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2473995700284295949&q=how+to+start+a+cult&total=253&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1 --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:59:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#f0a2e093-129e-4379-a787-1d6a5ff0feac rodent 2007-11-20T09:59:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8b0c1a2b-f356-458e-a8a7-847eb3491012 Something about seeing that cookie monster smiling big and saying "Fuckin' creeps" has got me laughing out loud. Just saying... Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:16:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#8b0c1a2b-f356-458e-a8a7-847eb3491012 Reverend Dusty 2007-11-20T08:16:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#09ce0dba-33ad-49ea-8dbc-1173a7186072 Fuckin' creeps. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:13:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#09ce0dba-33ad-49ea-8dbc-1173a7186072 grouchosuave 2007-11-20T03:13:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#58c0a62d-8373-46cd-b973-a14d0ebfb531 It's all part of a sales push for their latest & greatest course, something called SELP: http://landmarkforum.tribe.net/thread/03ed3d82-2701-49a9-8875-28bd056c49d8 Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:06:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#58c0a62d-8373-46cd-b973-a14d0ebfb531 scalefree 2007-11-20T03:06:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ba1eb5b3-a12b-4eda-b0da-62f804aea82e One problem I had with Moki's post was that it was posted EVERYWHERE. Cross posting bores and annoys me. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:58:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#ba1eb5b3-a12b-4eda-b0da-62f804aea82e Crypto 2007-11-20T00:58:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5ac10684-2899-4da6-8ef9-e1727dec6414 they do seem to shy away from discussions of their product. They only want venues where they can control the discussion. Another hallmark of a cult/scam group. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:20:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5ac10684-2899-4da6-8ef9-e1727dec6414 Hummingbird 2007-11-20T00:20:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5941d523-a68e-436e-87fe-8a100b0986c3 If they want to go to war with me I'll happily tear them to pieces in the public square that is this forum. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:19:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#5941d523-a68e-436e-87fe-8a100b0986c3 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-20T00:19:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1177276f-b1c8-4597-bdcc-d0825d830776 Well, this isn't the first time I've seen LMF marketed to burners, and that's what they're trying to do. Trawl for burners wallets. --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:12:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#1177276f-b1c8-4597-bdcc-d0825d830776 rodent 2007-11-20T00:12:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#89e97fef-d472-40e3-a489-62d48df725e6 Don't know. I saw no problem with Moki's post. It was "hey if you're into this, we have a Tribe". There was no pushing anything on anyone. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:56:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#89e97fef-d472-40e3-a489-62d48df725e6 Bobzilla 2007-11-19T23:56:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#127cdf1a-2ce3-42ac-9347-a0fb8a13777f Landmark is a cult. Nuff said... delete that EST! Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:55:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#127cdf1a-2ce3-42ac-9347-a0fb8a13777f ~M 2007-11-19T23:55:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a0b16fed-c98c-45b8-b0cb-0dd0f4c3ac29 Scientology sued them. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:40:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#a0b16fed-c98c-45b8-b0cb-0dd0f4c3ac29 Kamikaze 2007-11-19T23:40:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#52634755-5360-4a7c-95bf-2387cb30b8a3 oh thank god! I thought that LM and their minions had some sort of power. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:37:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#52634755-5360-4a7c-95bf-2387cb30b8a3 Hummingbird 2007-11-19T23:37:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0f5f5acf-bc3a-455f-80b6-4c54cc28d5ed I think it was a mutual stand down. They deleted their thread, so I deleted mine. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:35:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#0f5f5acf-bc3a-455f-80b6-4c54cc28d5ed $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-19T23:35:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#29311fbc-89a5-4f8a-ae69-552e415604f7 So, why are all the LMF threads being deleted? --- rodent (putting the eek in geek) Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:33:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/b41b4b15-0529-4563-967c-fedfb54717e5#29311fbc-89a5-4f8a-ae69-552e415604f7 rodent 2007-11-19T23:33:18Z