poopy pants

And so it seems that my notions of viral marketing weren't baseless.

Sneaky bastards.

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

I think it has helped people - but it has the same problem as evangellical christianity - it helps them, and then won't leave them alone. They'll call you relentlessly, I went to a LF "graduation" and refused to give them my phone #, because I remember the missionary methods of EST in the 70's.

The once authentic experience of personal transformation has been distilled into a sales pitch and marketing patter. There's a certain similarity here with BM, but it's more pronounced in my experience at the AIDS Ride. When I worked there, they flew people from all the offices to Chicago where we were taught the new recruitment speech to get people to register for the ride (our teachers I later discovered were Forum trainers - at the time I only knew they were assholes). We were then flown to LA and tested on how well we did it "emotionally" - we weren't supposed to cry, but we were supposed to be clear of "baggage". About a year later when I to a friend's Landmark graduation, and the trainer gave the EXACT speech I learned for the AIDS Ride and 3 Day Breast Cancer Walk. I almost fell out of my chair. I had

This was just another step in the AIDS Ride co-opting what had been a spontaneous emotional experience, turning into a corporate "value" and then marketing it. Basically it was emotional engineering - "you WILL have a transformational experience at this event". I found that annoying beyond anything I had ever experienced. The Forum does the same thing, thus making what is of value in the experience disingenuous.

wow, it sounds like you've got it all figured out.

but i wonder - how did find the time to meet everyone thats gone through the landmark forum, to find out if it had worked and what price they paid? or.. do you not work?

as a handicapped person id think youd have an intimate understanding of the danger of the impact of blanket statements about groups of people. but, maybe i just misunderstood what you were trying to say.

can you backpedal in a wheelchair?

I took the Landmark courses all the way through the Self Expression and Leadership course (SELP).
I have at least 18-20 friends, friends before Landmark, who also went through the courses.
I received tools from Landmark that have been very valuable in my life. I watched all of my friends have improvement in their lives through the Landmark courses The communication skills that they teach, are worth the price of admission alone.

Landmark for me was a stepping off place for a more powerful life. All of the people that I knew before Landmark, who took the courses, have benefited from them and have a higher quality of life. I'm sure that none of them regret going through the program.

Landmark has a mission. They believe that the world would be a better place if 20 million people took their basic course, The Forum. I'm going to tell you right up front that the world would be a much better place if that happened. Think about a world where people dealt with each other with open honest communication and integrity.

The problem with Landmark is that they are pushy about it. Such is often the case with People on a mission. Also, they are dependent on volunteers to coordinate their programs, and the volunteers get over zealous and aggressive. This aggressiveness is against Landmark policy, but happens because the volunteers are so into the program that they get carried away. The reason that they get carried away is because theey have experienced positive change in their lives through the Landmark program. Of course, it is the people that the program has helped the most that get carried away the most. I have seen these people chastised by the Landmark leaders for their over zealousness.

Landmark is not a cult. There is no aspect of religion. They never ask for money outside of the fees for their workshops. Those fees are well within the range of the workshop fees charged by other self-help and inspirational speakers and organizations, and you get good value and content for your money. Also, you are free to come and go as you please.

The only things that Landmark absolutely demands from it's participants is a very high level of communications and integrity.

The Landmark courses are extremely stressful and demanding, mentally, emotionally, and even physically. There is a vast amount of information presented in a very short amount of time. The days are long. They start very early in the morning and go to 10:00 or midnight. Lack of sleep adds to the stress.
As with any program, there are going to be people who have problems with it. I'm going to tell you that these problems are most likely with those people and not Landmark. Some people are just not equipped to handle the stress and demands of the program. In each of the three courses that I took from them, there were people who dropped out after the first or second day.

As for my own experience with Landmark, I refused to play into their sense of urgency. I refused to recruit my friends and told them to fuck off when they got pushy about it, and they backed off. When friends noticed that I was changing for the better and asked why I told them. Several of them subsequently took the Forum and benefited from it, as well.

After 30 years in the business world, I took the SELP course,and learned valuable management and organizational skills that I hadn't even dreamed of. The emphasis of the SELP is working to improve your community. Every participant has to put together and implement a project that benefits their community. Landmark taught me how to develop and organize the project, recruit people to help put it together, and how to raise the money to fund the project.

I have had no contact with Landmark for 4 years. They have not called me or contacted me in any way. Landmark was stepping off place for me. Using the tools that I got from them, I have become extremely powerful and have manifested an incredible life.

I did lots of Landmark coursework from '01 - '04, and did so because I found value in it. No one coerced me. I'll say these things rather about Landmark:

- If you do the work, it will help you in wonderful ways.
- Theirs isn't the only pathway to transformation, but it's effective and well priced.
- Their marketing paradigm sucks ass and has made far more messes than they care to admit. Works for some, works against others.
- They've made a lot of mistakes and continue to.

If anyone reading this is interested in pathways to personal transformation, I'm happy to respond off-thread if you send me an email. I seldom monitor the goings-on in this particular tribe. I'm happy to share about or discuss any transformational techniques insofar as you are discerning what's right for you. Landmark may or may not be it; consider me a resource who likes Landmark but doesn't care if you go or not.

Al

Okay, Skylar, I'll spell it out. I know cults. Landmark Forum sets off my cult alarms. Whatever the benefit of LF to you, the price others have had to pay is to high. I do believe that if you ever came face to face with the suffering that others have and continue to endure, you'd be filled with revultion.

And now to kill this thread.

I am morally certain that plenty of boys got great benefits from their time in the Hitlerjungend. However, cultish, destructive, evil.

I hope that puts a stake through its rocky heart.

Ah, garimo, maybe you can answer my question. What were you talking about? Which group? I know you brought up several, then expanded on one, but I couldn't figure out which one. It seemed like you had something to say with some personal experience behind it.

Try to keep up. It was Moki who deleted two threads, one here & one in the Landmark tribe. It's the Landmark one that was really interesting, it was a call for help in targeting social networking sites to sell Landmark courses through. After I linked to it in this thread, pointing out how it gave the game away that Moki was only coming here to give us a sales pitch, Moki deleted that thread too. Don't take my word for it though, go ask Moki what was in the thread & why he deleted it.

As for pushing, Landmark is practically synonymous with hard sell. See above.

Let me esplain...no wait, that would take too long.
Let me sum up...
Humperdink is marrying your True love in less than an hour.
And you have been 'mostly' dead all day.

Umm...shut up and go ride a bike comes to mind.
Then again, I'm eating Turkey.
Not crow!
KK