http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eb046486-fd8f-4424-9ad4-e9de5d581100 Some people fly in, purchase what they need, then fly out. There are size limits on what you can bring home on an ariplane. It's unlikely that you're going to have room for a week's worth of garbage, especially if you have camping equipment. If you went on vacation to a hotel in Reno, would you haul home your garbage? I don't think so. It's possible to get rid of garbage in a responsible way. The most obvious is a nearby city dump. Fernley has one, that's where we usually go. I agree that trash in dumpsters in retail establishments is not that big of a deal, because those stores stand to benefit from Burners spending money there, and if they have a good size dumpster, they can handle your trash - if you're smart enough about it. One or two bags in a public dumpster that has room for it - okay. Leaving it in an already overflowing dumpster - not cool. Leaving it by an overflowing dumpster - really not cool. Your entire camp's fuckload of garbage in one dumpster - c'mon guys, spread the love a little, ya know? Not tying down your load well enough and spewing trash all over the highway - really selfish, stupid, and illegal to boot. But some people just don't care. Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:39:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eb046486-fd8f-4424-9ad4-e9de5d581100 theda 2007-09-25T01:39:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8e84942d-ba4e-4c8c-8b97-eab91a5ab53c Believe it or not, some people are just that stupid. If she was trying to get out that fast, maybe there was some kind of emergency...maybe she felt "entitled" to spew her shit all over the place. Who knows. Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:30:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8e84942d-ba4e-4c8c-8b97-eab91a5ab53c theda 2007-09-25T01:30:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e07c75b0-d385-4155-a179-7437bb665c90 I always get low-income tickets every year, so I *do* have to fill out a questionnaire! I'd have no problem with that rule...but I don't see the BMorg doing it. Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:27:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e07c75b0-d385-4155-a179-7437bb665c90 theda 2007-09-25T01:27:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#26ce8beb-be03-499b-93db-0dc4b67fcdce That is a bunch of shit. I am not a raver. I know plenty of Burners who aren't. I also know many "ravers" who are very responsible and very committed to LNT and would never leave shit all over the highway. Besides, what is a "raver", anyway? I will poke my head inside of a rave camp or two to check out their domes and decorations and all the freaky people and maybe dance a little and hang with my friends. I don't spend hours and hours there, but I do enjoy them as part of the whole scene. Electronica is not my favorite music, but I can enjoy it for a little while. I'm sure a lot of people are the same way. Am I a "raver"? Are they "ravers"? Stereotypes and pointing fingers don't accomplish anything in this discussion. You can blame it on the cracked-out ravers or the dirty hippies or whatever you want, or you can take responsibility and try to help out. We're all Burners, and we're all responsible for this situation. Grace, I'm sorry your communities had to deal with this crap. It's thoughtless and inconsiderate, and it isn't right. Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:21:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#26ce8beb-be03-499b-93db-0dc4b67fcdce theda 2007-09-25T01:21:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#10fa5caa-8584-4fd9-9e3a-961f363d560a I've been to the dump two years running with big camp-sized loads of trash. It's not bad, not too expensive, and the folks are really nice. Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:57:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#10fa5caa-8584-4fd9-9e3a-961f363d560a Rebecca 2007-09-20T01:57:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7cc521cc-f75c-48e6-adbe-819883956368 Beautiful, Ms. D! As one of the crazy Greeters on duty at midnight on Friday, I have to say that the educational corps could use as much support as we can get. Also could use a bit more integrity (leave no trace-talk to the arrivers, and then pouring beer on the playa--what's that???). I'll talk to the greeter honchos--I'm calling myself out for grumbling without grumbling to the right people--and in the mean time, I'm all for vigilante edumification. Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:51:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7cc521cc-f75c-48e6-adbe-819883956368 Rebecca 2007-09-20T01:51:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e6e57a19-339c-4929-a1e0-0585c9dcb09d My first post in this discussion was in regard to trash outside of the Burning Man city. What gets discarded or placed in private dumpsters and left along the roads, accidental or not. Even stickers littering the highway for 100's of miles. Is there a way to get 50,000 people to do the right thing? My opinion is no. I don't mind talking about all the millions of ways to do the right thing on the playa. But that seems to be under the authority and responsibility of BRC LLC. and the BLM. What about the communities outside of the compound? The weather is looking frightful! MOOP and rain. Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:37:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e6e57a19-339c-4929-a1e0-0585c9dcb09d Grace-Indeed 2007-09-20T01:37:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b0f8c967-12d4-45a5-8c76-7ff810b8f8df Burner culture, while still amazing, is definitely going downhill. There is a stipulation I remember from the olden days that all burners are asked to do a MOOP sweep on the open playa on Sunday after the burn. I went out there and collected a bag full of MOOP. HOWEVER, I did NOT see anyone else doing this. There seems to an attitude of "I already contributed to the event in another way, I'll leave the MOOP to you." And when on a typical Burning Man day I would pick up a piece of random MOOP on the street, someone would usually acknowledge me for it. Granted, I don't pick up every piece of MOOP I see, but it would work if every one of us took on the mantra, "I'm responsible for MOOP in BRC." Do that and the general consciousness around trash would probably improve. I think we ought to all just bring less packaging in the first place. Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:04:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b0f8c967-12d4-45a5-8c76-7ff810b8f8df Owl 2007-09-20T00:04:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d681b7fc-237d-469a-aa7a-ad38f2fed9cb Some idiots simply don't understand "pack it in, pack it out" & "leave no trace" That's why many of us are still here picking up shit. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:45:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d681b7fc-237d-469a-aa7a-ad38f2fed9cb Cuntess 2007-09-19T23:45:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8ffaf67-6cbc-49ca-abb3-7267d2d9a975 How dare you! Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:27:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8ffaf67-6cbc-49ca-abb3-7267d2d9a975 Язηdall 2007-09-19T23:27:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b8ecbcc8-04ef-4398-a9c3-c4c33431b91e I lived in Fernley from 2003-2005. They have a wonderful transfer station that also allows for recycling. From the (offical!) Burning Man web page at http://www.burningman.com/preparation/travel_info/reno/reno_Fernley.html "Here's the easiest way to get to the Fernley dump. When you come into Wadsworth at the stop sign, instead of turning right towards I-80, turn left. Go through Wadsworth, under the interstate, past the Pilot Station and head into downtown Fernley. When you come to the stop light, turn right onto Hwy. 95A. Go about 2 miles. It will be on your left, just past the canal. If you pass the Fernley High School on your left, you have gone too far. **Hours are expanded now to 7 AM to 4:30 PM seven days a week.** They will be open over Labor Day weekend and each cubic yard will cost you $5.50 to unload. Cash or checks only. No credit cards or debit cards accepted. 3 yard ($16.50) mininum. 775-575-7150 for additional information." Even better is to make friends with your local Lyon Co resident (just because s/he is from NV doesn't mean you have to talk louder at 'em, they speak English!) and have them accompany you to the fabulous Lyon County landfill; http://www.lyonco.org/sw/static.php?page=landfill Tha asterisks in the material copied from the Burning Man website are mine. Also mine is my opinion that some of the comments in this thread regarding Nevada are patently insulting. I don't give a fuck if you think the state is a nuclear waste dump or populated with dirt heads and tweakers with nothing better to do than park abandoned cars on their lawns, celebrate diversity you thankless fucks or go your asses home. And please dispose of your trash appropriately on the way out. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:39:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b8ecbcc8-04ef-4398-a9c3-c4c33431b91e !!☻♥ 2007-09-19T21:39:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7d215800-9cbe-4bdf-95aa-48002a62731a What about recycling? Between paper, plastic and aluminum recycling and composting (we dry the stuff in orange sacks then seal it up in buckets and compost at home), our camp really didn't have that much trash to haul. Of course the net amount of bags to shlep home wasn't reduced, but by recycling, we're just more mindful of our waste. Also the trash seems cleaner and people seemed more willing to haul it. I wonder how much of the waste generated at BM is disposable plastic water jugs. If we can get people to buy reusable containers, that would help reduce trash tremendously. One incentive to go reusable: free water (relatively) close the entrance. We brought empty jugs and filled up (yes, for free) at the gas station in Fernley. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:04:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7d215800-9cbe-4bdf-95aa-48002a62731a Galumphix 2007-09-19T17:04:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#697ab35b-8e40-4be6-be69-a118f039b1a3 Why? Because the "trash" is part of YOUR community that you help create. "blah, blah, blah" also shows your depth and understanding of the English language. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:30:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#697ab35b-8e40-4be6-be69-a118f039b1a3 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-19T16:30:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6a2cf635-d004-4310-9cb7-fcaf0c6a4f9a blah blah blah, i live 6000 miles away and i paid to have my little trash hauled back to salt lake city. why should i take responsibility for lazy fuckers? Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:51:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6a2cf635-d004-4310-9cb7-fcaf0c6a4f9a simon 2007-09-19T15:51:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7796b46b-2379-4a2e-9d9b-9540ad023ecb If I add in Shooters topic title.... BRC is a large fenced/gated white - trash as the eye can see - community.... Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:28:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7796b46b-2379-4a2e-9d9b-9540ad023ecb Grace-Indeed 2007-09-19T15:28:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#33842ac3-084c-4f49-bd48-e04d1efe9f24 Yes. New events, no cruddled old ORG, different locations. It's time. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:21:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#33842ac3-084c-4f49-bd48-e04d1efe9f24 Lokifreign 2007-09-19T15:21:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c3171175-cffc-4f30-bfec-9d1a31265b0d Is there a solution? As rain moves into the region.... Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:12:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c3171175-cffc-4f30-bfec-9d1a31265b0d Grace-Indeed 2007-09-19T15:12:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#20207661-7de2-4832-a5df-f1611e527f13 I hope those people suggesting that there should be a team of people during exodus next year whos job it is to check that vehicle loads are secure will be the first ones to volunteer to do this. Gate staff and DPW already have lots of stuff on their plates, and it can be difficult enough already to find enough volunteers to carry out the tasks they currently take care of.. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:27:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#20207661-7de2-4832-a5df-f1611e527f13 Seanan 2007-09-12T08:27:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#92e07ecc-e891-4481-82be-620ce6b893ed Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I now officially love TomCat. Tomorrow I'm starting legal action to shut down Reno, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, etc since they have no place in delicate ecosystems. Hmmmm. And LA, and ....uhmmmmm, every other city. Shouldn't take too long, as it's a clear cut case. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#92e07ecc-e891-4481-82be-620ce6b893ed Too Much 2007-09-12T08:00:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d77e908b-d7ba-4802-9a20-71d6e44effac Ms. Dynomite: > Obviously there is a huge deficiency in education if people are attending the event asking where to buy something and not knowing to pack out their trash. That has to be resolved on an individual and org level. Education is only half of it. Ownership is the other half of it. If people feel like they own something then they're more likely to take care of it. Is Burningman just a party thrown by the BMORG (who are starting to make a good profit off of it)? If so, of course people aren't going to take care of it. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:59:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d77e908b-d7ba-4802-9a20-71d6e44effac Adam 2007-09-12T07:59:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0d83af31-6056-4356-99c8-190d1a215e8f Except that people that don't care about securing their load nor tossing it/letting it blow over the side aren't going to spend a penny to pay to put it in a dumpster. You can't stop stupid. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:46:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0d83af31-6056-4356-99c8-190d1a215e8f Too Much 2007-09-12T07:46:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b77c384e-fb20-4bf7-b3eb-54718fc78af3 Fuck yeah!!! STATE WARS! Get it on, guys! Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:42:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b77c384e-fb20-4bf7-b3eb-54718fc78af3 Too Much 2007-09-12T07:42:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f7bfdd3a-7dc9-4811-a52e-e6eb0a0d829d --Gez what a buch of whiners, shut up and pick up the sides of the roads they REALLY look like crap. --- Says the guy with trash all over the roads in his state. Sweet. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:36:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f7bfdd3a-7dc9-4811-a52e-e6eb0a0d829d Too Much 2007-09-12T07:36:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#effe4c92-7dcc-4399-b8a3-903472ed5dc5 I'm an Nist and a Stateist. If it's a state, and has an 'n' in it, I hate it. Fucking states with the letter in. I never drive in the states that I hate, being a true Nist and Stateist. I only drive on the roads on top of the states. So, as you so elegantly say, since I don't like your state I won't ever come there. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:34:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#effe4c92-7dcc-4399-b8a3-903472ed5dc5 Too Much 2007-09-12T07:34:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4feb7ff2-314b-4caa-9340-687d3388c647 Who the fuck can't tie their shoes? Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:26:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4feb7ff2-314b-4caa-9340-687d3388c647 Too Much 2007-09-12T07:26:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#79e738a9-8288-4405-ad66-62e471cb2472 Roving helicopters with litter snipers would work. Plus Nevada could make a profit by filming it as a reality tv/hunting show. Or put a bounty on litterers. There's always a bunch of hunters standing around watching burners driving in, with odd expressions on their faces. I bet they'd love to zip around in there big fords taking shots at highway drivers tossing trashbags from their vehicles. Dumpers can't be any smarter than coyotes, I bet. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:18:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#79e738a9-8288-4405-ad66-62e471cb2472 Too Much 2007-09-12T07:18:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fa722bb3-671a-4640-937d-41ee7a0351eb I'm pretty sure the upright apes that did that aren't on this list.........naw, they're probably reading this and giggling. What losers. Sorry I'm of the same species if that helps. Did you join this tribe only to communicate that? Just curious. Sas Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:06:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fa722bb3-671a-4640-937d-41ee7a0351eb Sasquatch 2007-09-12T07:06:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a129cd22-b355-4805-ad2f-3db6fbebed0b ---but her point is valid and relevant --- That's right, it's totally valid and relevant. Let's get back to ripping on hippies and...uhm......shirtcockers. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:02:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a129cd22-b355-4805-ad2f-3db6fbebed0b Too Much 2007-09-12T07:02:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a9e38db3-b07d-45bd-8286-45d56524eede "Thanks for all the responses. I think handing out more trash is a bad idea. Dump locations closer or in the event seems to be a good idea." Ok first please elaborate on the handing out more trash part. Second i don't know exactly how to get through to you or even please you at this point. I've shown you the math about having dump locations in the event. It is NOT possible to do it. Even if there were dumpsters in the event have you ever seen a dumpster being hauled away? You think burners are bad at strapping down their trash? Wait till you see a dumpster company. There would be 10 times the trash. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 06:33:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a9e38db3-b07d-45bd-8286-45d56524eede Fire 2007-09-12T06:33:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f9c1a96b-1942-49cd-b2a0-d63dfaa5e71a Thanks for all the responses. I think handing out more trash is a bad idea. Dump locations closer or in the event seems to be a good idea. Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:53:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f9c1a96b-1942-49cd-b2a0-d63dfaa5e71a Grace-Indeed 2007-09-12T04:53:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e91b45b2-a32b-44da-ad81-323a89deb2d8 I too am sorry to hear about this.... So many newbies, so many people trying to leave quickly and not securing their garbage properly...and the nearly debilitating dust storms of monday and tuesday....all of them adding up to a problem that I know is going to be taken up by the BORG this year and going to wreak havoc for the clean up crew. Especially the absolutely inexcusable amount of garbage left on the playa this year. I'm not just talking MOOP, I'm talking about couches, carpets and structures left on nearly every block of the city. I saw what looked like a 15 foot mast of a ship wrapped in plastic and simply left.... I was in long before the greeters were in place...so did people feel they were properly informed about not leaving anything behind? It seemed to me that it simply wasn't emphasized enough this year and as a result people took it as permission to think "Well, there's people here to take it all out." Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:19:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e91b45b2-a32b-44da-ad81-323a89deb2d8 Kevissimo 2007-09-11T19:19:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8c0c45bd-e8ae-422c-a77b-6f0a556825e7 I totally agree with this. The exit greeters gate. Maybe it wouldn't be a gate cuz people would try to blow right past it, but if people are already stopped in line waiting to get out, it would be a lot easier to interact with them. I see interacting with people around changing their moop behavior like this: love, respect, community, warnings, lectures, intimidation, fear, threats. Which basically means if you can't reach people through positive communications, you reach them through negative ones before they roach the surrounding communities with their moop. On the exit gate, moop masters would offer to help moopers get their load on their vehicle under control. If they refuse, then tell them a picture will be taken of their vehicle and put on the moop polluter website as an example of a dumbass mooper(in much more diplomatic terms of course). An exit greeters gate would also be a good idea to check out if people are too tired to drive and offer them a place to nap before they go on the road. Getting people out of the line and back into it is something the org and DPW would have to cooperate with doing, but something needs to be done. At the very least, giving people a card (more moop!) in the exodus line to take their trash all the way home and dispose of it there would be a big help. Maybe a big sign. Those Burma shave signs on the way in should be reversed and used on the way out. Leave no Trace. Take it all the way home. One burner's flying moop is another person's eyesore. My overall master moop strategy: enlist people in the Moop Masters regimen for strengthening mind, body and spirit. First, give out 5 to 10,000 biodegradeable clear moop bags at greeters entry and inside the burn. In each bag is an envelope marked: Do Not Open This Envelope Until Completing Instructions. 1. Fill bag with burn moop. 2. Take home and dispose properly. 3. Open the envelope. Inside is a master of moop sticker or tag, or decoder ring. Some positive giftey type thing. Second: have roving bands of Moop Samurai. They wear recycled garb made out of dumpster diving materials. They do skits, go to gathering places and get on the mikes to encourage people to pick up moop, stake out places to harass moopsters, do public education, and put a public face on being a moop conscious burner. First level: moop master, second: moop samurai, third: moop mojo, fourth: moop philosopher king. The goal of course is to go up the scale but being a moop master is the primary goal for all burners. Third: do art that emphasizes the LNT rules. Maybe a mock burner vehicle belching moop that is set on fire nightly...something easy to do like that. Fourth: exit greeters strategy. Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:06:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8c0c45bd-e8ae-422c-a77b-6f0a556825e7 Diode 2007-09-11T19:06:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c9edadf0-7925-4c63-8a9f-0742668c0f9e We always take our trash to the Reno dump. It's right near downtown, really easy, and so easy to find. I did a quick search and found this informative link: http://www.cieux.com/bm/trash.html Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:37:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c9edadf0-7925-4c63-8a9f-0742668c0f9e $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-11T18:37:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#47e1741b-9e15-42a9-b560-5fd37dc0ee71 "I have a T-Shirt that says "Stop Bitching Start A Revolution" besides that, what solution do you propose for this problem? mind blowing amounts of blowing trash " I just told you. There needs to be some sort of group that checks every single car during exodus for load security. If their trash load is not secured they would help them resecure it. Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:26:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#47e1741b-9e15-42a9-b560-5fd37dc0ee71 Fire 2007-09-11T18:26:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d113c2ae-31e4-4e00-ba60-9415e49b99c6 I remember in 2005 the BORG announced that the Reno city dump station was staying open on the holiday in order to accept event trash. It was open again this year...$10 bucks. With so many newbies each year it may be wise to prioritize this info for them. Of course, the anti-social types will continue to shit on others because they are special. Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:16:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d113c2ae-31e4-4e00-ba60-9415e49b99c6 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-11T13:16:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e705c390-6ff9-4ee2-bd32-b6b04dc8ba86 I have a T-Shirt that says "Stop Bitching Start A Revolution" besides that, what solution do you propose for this problem? mind blowing amounts of blowing trash Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:58:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e705c390-6ff9-4ee2-bd32-b6b04dc8ba86 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-11T05:58:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3bf35e0f-71dd-4857-a667-0d55ce3382c0 Ok after reading most of these points i will give my 2 cents. For the people that say the bmorg needs to provide dumpsters this is the worst idea in the entire world. Do you know how much trash 40,000 people produce in a weekend? Lets do a little math here. This year we had 192 blocks at burning man. (12 x 16 check it yourself.) For each of those blocks you would need atleast 8 40 yard dumpsters. (remember there were on average 250 people camped in each block this year) This is due to the fact that if you provide a dumpster people will throw away EVERYTHING. So thats 1,536 dumpsters!!! I don't believe there is a single dumpster company in the entire world that has that many dumpsters available. For the sake of argument we continue on...... I don't have an exact estimate, but the average cost of a 40 yard dumpster is $850. This is probably low because most companies would not drive an hour and half to deliver a dumpster without charging a huge fee. So we calculate 1,536 dumpsters time $850 and we get $1,305,600. So its not a matter of adding $200,000 into the budget. My estimate is probably way on the low side as well. So now that we are done with that first problem lets move on. There are some of you saying that someone should set up a bunch of dumpsters and charge people $10 a bag to throw a bag of trash away. The problem with this is that you are expecting the dumb asses, who are not even educated enough to tie down their trash, to pull off the side of the road and pay you to haul their trash away. They don't give a shit and they sure as hell are not going to pay to have their trash hauled off when they can just let it fall off onto the side of the road for free. The only real option is to start a group of volunteers, or dpw to go through the exodus car by car making sure everyone has their garbage properly tied down. If any thing throw and extra $50,000 into the budget to buy netting and rope for people. Makes a lot more sense that 1.3 million dollars to me. As for people throwing their trash on the playa the only way to help with that is to educate. If you see someone throw something on the playa then ask them to pick it up and inform them on the LNT philosophy. It also doesn't hurt to just stop and pick up moop from time to time. It can actually be kinda fun. A bunch of my camp mates made a "game" out of it this year. 5 or 6 people would go pick up moop for say 20 minutes. Then everyone came back to camp. Whoever had the most moop got the next day off. No camp duties for them. It was fun and kept us very entertained. Do your part to keep the playa clean, and if you can pitch in a little extra. Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:28:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3bf35e0f-71dd-4857-a667-0d55ce3382c0 Fire 2007-09-11T05:28:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4ca83c5d-6cec-4ff9-bedc-38510e3bc7e7 I drove several hours South to Mono Lake., California. Guess what I found there? Burning man stickers and graffiti at the scenic overlook. There is an abandoned BM bike at the local gas station now too. Last year the bikes sat chained to the rack for weeks. I wonder how long the shop owners will leave them there this year. Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:26:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4ca83c5d-6cec-4ff9-bedc-38510e3bc7e7 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-11T03:26:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dce100ae-77b6-4aa9-95a8-192e6f9f2fde We always bring our trash home (to the Mojave desert) including at least 2 extra bags of moop we've collected... In fact, I'm watching the trash truck pick up 6 bags of trash (4 from our camp, 2 full of our fellow burners moop) from in front of my home right now! Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:07:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dce100ae-77b6-4aa9-95a8-192e6f9f2fde Lady D 2007-09-07T16:07:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a54ed45c-3fe0-4d23-83e6-a70e6152a0b3 It makes me really sad that some people just have no respect. We took everything we had back all the way to our very own homes. We had very little consumption, even. I am really proud of myself. Now how can we become proud of ourselves as an entire community? Shame on those of you who don't know what leave no trace means! It means leave no trace from the front step of your door to the event and back home. Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:57:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a54ed45c-3fe0-4d23-83e6-a70e6152a0b3 Bettina 2007-09-07T15:57:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a7f0e3c2-7bba-4e21-a8e5-22dfed5f74de Even though I was a virgin this year, I knew exactly what the trash rules were. We packed the stuff in, we packed it out -- all the way home. It's not a mystery what's expected of each participant. The information is readily available. Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:28:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a7f0e3c2-7bba-4e21-a8e5-22dfed5f74de BellaDona 2007-09-07T01:28:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f452a658-60e2-42a7-9f50-1eac1f479369 I'm really starting to think about a camp that teaches knot tying-- it's so handy-- for survival, load control, and bondage, too!!! (that should get people interested... ;-) Honestly, you need to know 3 knots-- bowline, trucker's hitch, and half hitch-- and have a rudimentary understanding of how to make a little package out of a load and then figure out how to secure it to your rig. But it is a learned skill. I also like Crypto's idea of having a team of volunteers (I'd join), but I'd also like to point out that it's just one more way that Burning Man is externalizing the costs of their growth by shifting yet another responsibility for social chaos prevention to the festival's participants. Speaking as a past, present and future volunteer, give me a freakin' break and don't innundate me (us) with so many people that need to be taken care of!!! A few who will genuinely appreciate the help/lesson and resolve to take care of their own shit next year? Great. A horde of people who will come to expect that someone is going to come and tie down their Beverley Freakbillies load and wipe their butt? Um, I think I hear a hot spring in a forest somewhere calling my name... Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:23:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f452a658-60e2-42a7-9f50-1eac1f479369 Chris Jus'thinkin! 2007-09-07T01:23:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aa242cf5-2bcd-40fa-8a17-71382467d896 What I have done in past years to deal with this is to go on load control patrol during the exodus. As my driving partner has been waiting in line, I would get out, and go up and down the line checking on people's loads, and pulling them out of their cars to help me fix things that wouldn't fly (or would fly, actually). I've asked people in adjacent cars for rope if the person with the bad load didn't have any. It's great fun, and I've gotten some great gifts and benefits, not to mention the satisfaction of knowing that I really did keep some bad shit from happening (trash is one thing, a bike peeling off a roof at 70mph into the windshield of the following car is quite another). This year, sad to say, I didn't do this. For starters, I decided that it wasn't very green to idle my big truck for 4 hours, dumping probably tons of CO2 in the atmosphere, so I left tuesday morning. I was going to go out to the exodus on Monday anyway, but the dust storm shut me down (mea culpa). I suspect that this year's problems were exacerbated (at least for those leaving Monday afternoon) by that storm and the urge to just get the hell off the playa. I think that trash is another symptom of the out-of-whack rate of growth of the festival-- too many people who are just showing up with minimal clue of what to expect and what is expected of them, and not enough people (and decreasing due to it not being so fun anymore) being willing to intercede, teach or inform. We all need to teach each other what we know about surviving on the playa and not being an asshole, but it's pretty tough to keep up with the rate of new students at the school o' PlayaLife. Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:10:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aa242cf5-2bcd-40fa-8a17-71382467d896 Chris Jus'thinkin! 2007-09-07T01:10:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#59e9fb5e-d417-4964-974e-5c34d0432ec1 >> As much as people hate fossil fuel, pound for pound, it is the most efficient fuel we have as far as energy available for a given amount of work. Yeah, but... er.. last I checked, once it's gone, it's gone. Then you just gotta wait a million years for the next harvest. You may not have a choice, because it's running low. And it isn't efficient when you take into consideration that it's killing us and this place we call home. Pay attention much? If you are a Global Warming denier, here is another group you may want to join: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/ And if you take the "hey, 1 or 2 degrees over a century ain't bad" approach, then you need to look beneath the surface and see the real ways it's affecting us. It's not a simple equation of rising temperatures. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:56:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#59e9fb5e-d417-4964-974e-5c34d0432ec1 sayr 2007-09-06T23:56:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9c2a5a5d-d430-4a7d-afbb-58b7fb1ece6b HA I LOVE the bullhorn idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:46:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9c2a5a5d-d430-4a7d-afbb-58b7fb1ece6b Snowlover 2007-09-06T23:46:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#20d43f22-afcc-45e8-95a9-a14569fd3137 I have to align myself with Ms D here. She's so right on so many points. BM is NOT for everyone. It is for Participants. One of the things I appreciate is that sense of stewardship this value instills in every person there (or should). We're ALL responsible for how it works. Educating virgins is the responsibility of the Citizens. The LLC and many others have published a mountain of information on how shit works on the playa. There's no excuse for not being responsible for yourself. Education is really the only way to keep it going. Accepting the fact that the event is changing and we're just going to have to suck it up and get dumpsters, or resign ourselves that the event is turning in to a dusty version of the state fair is basically like giving up, and goes against all the principles I thought the event and community stood for. We should be educating each other, as well as calling out violators, and I recommend doing so in a radical fashion. Bullhorns at close proximity work really well for this. I'm a strong proponent of public humiliation to induce positive behavioral modification. It goes something like this: >Asshole drops cigarette butt on the ground and starts to walk away. Responsible Burner politely asks if the would pick it up. Asshole looks dumbfounded. Responsible burner with bull horn approaches and declares "Hey, Asshole! Pick up your trash or get the fuck out of my city!" The haranguing continues, drawing attention to the violation by those in th immediate vicinity until either compliance or violence ensues. Usually peer pressure will accomplish the desired result.< If people can't accept a level of ownership over themselves, the land, and the event, then as citizens we have the right to have them ejected from the event, and should act on it. If I end up going next year, I'm going focus on looking for these kinds of violations, and helping people understand how and how not to behave. The LLC should not offer dumpsters. I posted it earlier, and it's a very simple concept: Pack it in, pack it out. If you brought it, take it with you. The only exception here is human waste, for which JOTS is our service provider, and the Blue Rooms are really the only TANGIBLE you get for your ticket price anyway. As a participatory society, ALL Burners need to abide by the tenets of the community. I can't think of a single excuse not to haul out your own garbage. All the way home. Not one. Whatever item came in the packaging you need to dispose of will now take less space and weight in the vehicle you arrived in than the original, assuming you consumed the contents. If it's not a consumable, you should have disposed of the packaging before you left home. You may need to plan for a different container to manage the messiness of your trash, but that's part of 'radical self-reliance' and is the responsibility of every BRC citizen. re: Center Camp & trash cans: It makes sense to put out receptacles for the paper cups the coffee bar dispenses. The folks buying the coffee didn't bring the cup; the coffee bar did, so it's responsible of them to provide a mechanism so they can pack it out. Theoretically, however, one could argue that no cans should be put out; that the patron bought the cup with the coffee. But the reality is that is more likely to create moop. A BYOC policy would inhibit sales, and that's just bad business. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:38:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#20d43f22-afcc-45e8-95a9-a14569fd3137 !drew! 2007-09-06T23:38:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a37a1859-d76b-466e-8392-f423f4a32b93 Geekster, you would be right if it weren't for algae. Your acting as though fossil fuels are our only possible fuel source while citing examples of obsolete harvesting and transport methods with vegetable oil. Algae does not require soil. It grows in flat-large tanks in the desert. All it requires is semi-clean (not heavily polluted) water. There are so many types of algae that grow well in various areas of the world, (in deserts, in the ocean) that it wouldn't require transportation across the globe from the middle east. Growing oil seeds is not the future and it has an extremely low yield. Plus, as you said it takes away from food sources for humans. I'm not advocating using fertilizer, tractors, soil and big tanker ships going around the world to transport it. People give up so quickly on alternatives because they're afraid of change and brainwashed by their own biased sources. Just because a new method/source of energy has a rocky start (look at solar power) doesn't mean it can't evolve into a viable alternative. Algae might very well hold the key to the future for a highly energy efficient vegetable oil crop with its roughly 10,000 gallons per acre yield. It also has low impact on the local populus, requires relatively little energy and makes use of otherwise barron chunks of desert land. Let's not even talk about Ethanol because I am not saying it's a viable alternative fuel source. I know how many of the world's people are being fucked out of food for Ethanol. I'm sorry for this off-topic tangent, perhaps we should start another thread? I don't care either way. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:36:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a37a1859-d76b-466e-8392-f423f4a32b93 sayr 2007-09-06T23:36:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5c2d2471-ec1a-466e-bb53-439419f5bbd2 "Geekster, what you are saying is false according to all of the sources I can find" That's probably because you are looking at sources with an investment in validation rather than information. Start with the fertilizer that is applied to the soil to grow the veggies. Include all the energy used in the production, transport, and application of it. What is that tractor using that is planting it? How did that seed get harvested and transported to the field. How much energy was used in the production, transport and application of the seed to the field? Then what about fungicides and pesticides used to keep the yield up and prevent it from being eaten by other things before harvest? Now add the harvesting process, transport to an elevator, drying, transport to a processing plant, and then energy consumed in the processing. Then you have to transport the oil to where it will be used in its primary function and then transport it away from there to where it will be processed for fuel and then the fuel transported to where it is going to be used. Basically veggie oil gives back less energy then it takes to make it. If we ran on a veggie oil economy we would gradually run out of both fuel and food. As much as people hate fossil fuel, pound for pound, it is the most efficient fuel we have as far as energy available for a given amount of work. Another thing you must remember is that pretty much all the land that can be in ag production IS in ag production and to increase oil crops you must take food crops out of production. Brazil is increasing ethanol production by cutting down rain forest and planting sugar. Sure, they use ethanol but they are killing the forest to meet demand. It would be better to simply farm trees for paper production and shove the resulting paper into abandoned coal mines to mitigate atmospheric CO2 generated from burning fossil fuel. The only reason they want you to recycle paper is so the landfills don't fill up. http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/manifesto07/biofuel.html Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:20:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5c2d2471-ec1a-466e-bb53-439419f5bbd2 Geekster 2007-09-06T23:20:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5e4ec9a3-8557-42c4-a964-e99228bd593f well i think you are full of shit as well so we'll just leave it at that! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:11:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5e4ec9a3-8557-42c4-a964-e99228bd593f Snowlover 2007-09-06T23:11:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c8760748-07b5-4f08-86c3-8c3d4e7cfde9 I like the reminders about ways of handling refuse to make it easier to take home, but... it's just more about what people *should* be doing... folks, isn't this preaching to the choir at this point, in this forum? How are these reminders going to make a difference when the real problem is that litterbugs are littering. Litterbugs (especially when in post-burn fatigue delirium) don't sit around with a checklist, making sure they've properly dehydrated their wet food waste. Not even fatigued *conscious* people do that. In 2003 I had to pick up after my hyper-conscious (but fatigued) hippy friends from Santa Cruz who left behind a bunch of random bits and pieces (shards) of broken PVC from their hastily disassembled shade-structure. Everyone has blindspots.... especially when they're sleep-deprived, emotionally drained and blinded by sunlight and heat.. they overlook the obvious while obsessing over the little things like getting home safely and beating the line to get out. I have always waited until Monday night so I can clean up the remains of my camp without all the obstacles and usually by that point the line has dimished somewhat so it doesn't take 2 hours to get out onto the road. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:08:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c8760748-07b5-4f08-86c3-8c3d4e7cfde9 sayr 2007-09-06T23:08:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2e5ea5cd-3666-4e18-9453-11a29ce5b01c You're mistaking my vigilance with defensiveness. I never called you names, get off it. I will admit that people who attend Burningman are litterbugs by and large and I have more allegiance to them than I do to my state or fellow "statesman". So am I still being "defensive" of my state?!?! I have no allegiance to California... I could give a crap about it's reputation. I just think you're full of shit and THAT IS my point - the point you are self-admittedly failing to see. So I guess I have to spell it out for you. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:55:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2e5ea5cd-3666-4e18-9453-11a29ce5b01c sayr 2007-09-06T22:55:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4409b795-aff5-4a3e-9811-85860d8df340 Like the idea of water-bottle frizbees... ;-) Maybe different moulds could be used and mugs, plates, etc...could be produced I'm going to buy 4 or 5 of the 5-gallon jerrycans for my next Burn. This year, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced to buy waaay tooo many 'disposale' 1-gallons water bottles, which even when crushed, used up a lot of room when being packed out. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:45:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4409b795-aff5-4a3e-9811-85860d8df340 Speedingpullet 2007-09-06T22:45:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#90015c18-22ff-4b3e-8186-be0bb184edb6 used wet wipes should be going into your burn barrel along with the organic stuff once you let it dry out a bit. Most of the stuff people are hauling out of there is plastic ... or it should be mostly plastic ... that they shouldn't burn. I bet someone could come up with a rather artistically built hydraulic water container compacter if they put their mind to it. Might be kinda fun to smash that 2.5 gal water box down to the size of a frizbee. Or maybe apply a little heat and MAKE them into frizbees or something. I dunno. There's much to be said for collapsible water bags instead of the plastic jugs. If people put just a little bit more thought into it they could manage to get out of there with a LOT less trash. But it seems that many are more interested in hauling their default world apartment and their default world life out to the playa. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:38:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#90015c18-22ff-4b3e-8186-be0bb184edb6 Geekster 2007-09-06T22:38:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#cd8f4b0f-e155-45af-93a5-7cbeab2e42a0 >> Anyway, as an example we were talking to a belhop in Reno Wednesday morning and he was like, Oh, but the event picks up after it is over. Automatically assuming that that was the case. We tried to emphasize that that is not in fact how it is. Tony, If you're talking about on the playa itself, the whole thing gets combed, yard by yard by volunteers who survey the entire area and pick up every last remaining item. What blows over the trash fence is gone and that can't be accounted for, but there is no cleanup within the 100 mile radius of main road surrounding BRC, so that would be the only other way for the org to make an effort to remove the trash wake. But obviously that would be cleaning up after EVERYONE in that area, not just BM attendees and that doesn't seem so feasible to me. Would be nice though, wouldn't it? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:37:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#cd8f4b0f-e155-45af-93a5-7cbeab2e42a0 sayr 2007-09-06T22:37:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a20f361e-1f5d-49f4-ae04-fda41968d571 "I strongly believe that a questionaire should be filled out before a ticket can be purchased," it would be funny if you had to answer a questionaire online before the final ticket purchase stage. *L* can you imagine the panicked rush of people trying to get that first set of early tickets? and the cheat sheets floating around? heeee. I know one burner who actually does quiz people. I've been trying to think of fun, interactive ways to share the principles and helpful info with new people. an oversized Twister mat where the phrases are on the mat, so you have to find them as you play. a strip poker kind of game where you have to take off clothes when you answer wrong. I've been making a "gifting suit" full of pockets to hold all sorts of useful stuff. It will allow me to give out practical gifts, but the other main purpose is to act as a point of education. Don't just hand someone a baggy for the pottie, tell them why they need it, how the event will suffer without JOT, the importance of LNT, how happy you are that they're helping by bagging out their unflushables. I've also been thinking about making "pay it forward" gifts. Maybe making a variety of pins, each one with a fun graphic or phrase for each of the principles. When I gift the pin to someone I explain the principle and tell them that they can keep it until someone else asks about it. Then they have to pass it on to that person, explaining the principle to the receipient. who goes on to do the same, etc. A way to try to make it an active and social process, to empower newbies to participate, to keep the information spreading. Of course, I haven't worked out details yet. Informing people doesn't mean they'll put it into practice, but they're more likely to think first. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:29:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a20f361e-1f5d-49f4-ae04-fda41968d571 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T22:29:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f2870277-e664-4aa4-9f6a-6378e535df63 Tapestry, that is just more idealism that we already know (here... the people you're discussing this issue with) and it is not working. Sure we all know what is supposed to be done, but since it's not happening, how do you propose enforcing? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:33:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f2870277-e664-4aa4-9f6a-6378e535df63 sayr 2007-09-06T22:33:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff5def5a-7f6d-468e-9cc4-16216d5dc6bc never once did i blame californians for litter anywhere, or any particular group for that matter. I just mentioned that I notice a lot of trash on the side of the road in CA. Sorry but the truth is from what I have seen CA has the most litter I have seen anywhere, no matter what you say or what names you want to call me, I still will feel this way. The only hard data i found was that the east bay had the most trashy roads in CA, there is no good info I could find to relate all the states. If you want to get into the BM litter specifically, simple statistics would lead me to believe that more trash came from californians than any other state group (a highly artifitial definition of a group) since they are the biggest state demographic represented at burning man, but alas this was never my point or contention. I simply was stating that y'all need to pick up your trash cuz your roads look like dumps. It doesnt' matter who put the trash there, its still there uglying up the beautiful scenery. Fine how about if i said freeway intead of interstate is that better for ya? Geez. Your right this is fucking stupid. All I'm trying to do is to get people to look at it with a critical eye, so go try to prove there is no litter out there. Where did I EVER claim Nevada was an environmental utopia, like all places, there are a ton of problems that seriously need attention. hmmm lets see, I didn't factor in dumping cuz I was talking about LITTER, not the total impact of the citizens on the environment. CA has an illegal dumping proplem, as does every other state in the union, I don't get what your point is? What that there are environmental problems everywhere, wow you should publish a paper on this ground breaking notion. Again WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH LITTER??????? you still never answered where you have observed the most trash, you only spew out, IT COULD NEVER BE MY PRECIOUS STATE. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:33:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff5def5a-7f6d-468e-9cc4-16216d5dc6bc Snowlover 2007-09-06T22:33:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f61a2d11-9109-4d75-9776-e764d6fd27a9 I think now we're agreeing... or at least I agree with all of what you just said. If it were me, personally, I would prefer the event to add a bit more (heavily discouraged) trash services and give that approach a fair try before deciding to end, but it really isn't up to me. For me, approaches to try would go: 1. Enhanced education and enforcement by the org and between campmates and attendees (if there is such a thing ~ probably is). 2. Heavily discouraged, but available trash services upon exit. Hopefully not additional charge because then the fuckoffs are going to decline and dump as they would if there were no trash service. 3. "Call it quits" Calling it quits, solely out of responsibility to the local (to BRC) communities who will otherwise suffer from this same old trash heap BM attendees are leaving in their wake. If it can't be LNT in a holistic sense, then it is not worth it. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:30:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f61a2d11-9109-4d75-9776-e764d6fd27a9 sayr 2007-09-06T22:30:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c164db72-f16d-4b84-a941-a9d1c37a9960 sayr, sorry if my post was confusing. I was not using the word "sustainable" in the current trendy context of environmentalism or permaculture. I was using it in the actual, original meaning of being able to continue year after year. To keep in existence, to maintain, to withstand, to keep from falling or sinking, etc. I appreciate your remarks about fuel and such, but that wasn't at all what I was alluding to. :) I personally think it's absurd for the event or the attendees to aim for sustainablility in that context. BM is the antithesis of that definition of sustainability. But that's a totally different discussion. "...they should take away the trash cans @ Center Camp" agreed. I really don't understand why they're present. Perhaps it's a health department requirement. Perhaps it's just a kindness so people don't have to carry the paper cup with them. I don't know, I haven't heard word on it. "That's if they really want to put the full push behind the LNT / "Pack it Out" intention. It needs to be a rule across the board and an issue needs to be really made to each group (vehicle) entering that the event" Agreed. This is what I meant by education. but I think it needs to be done before people arrive. In the "official" org capacity, there are 2 ways information is provided. The majority of the information is online, assuming ticket buyers will take the initiative and responsibility to prepare themselves. It's a passive step not an active one, which does make sense in the context of participation and self-reliance. It requires people to be resourceful. The only direct educational role is the greeters, who are there to remind people of what they were supposed to have already learned, not teach them from scratch. The other methods in place for people to receive info come from the community (attendees themselves). Before the event from veteran burners, regional contacts and regional orientation. During the event from attendee placed signage and peer-to-peer education/enforcement. Obviously the 2 official methods -- passive offering of info and greeter reminders -- are not working and the community efforts are also lacking. People aren't getting the info, aren't remembering it once they do, or aren't appreciating its importance. If the org wants to keep the principles of self-reliance, community, participation and LNT as a critical part of the event it needs to find a more active, effective way to educate. The community then needs to match that effort by being proactive, additional channels of education. In terms of community responsibility and maintaing a city, yes the org has some responsibility, but people shouldn't just be sitting around waiting for the org to fix things. If there's a problem within the city, such as a lack of education, then the city members need to step up as well so it's a joint effort. I'm not trying to say exclude all new people who are behaving badly. I'm saying that something better needs to be done to help acclimate them to the change of culture and guidelines that those people seem to be missing. It's never going to be 100%, but if the majority of people are conscientiously attempting to learn and be respectful it significantly reduces the ignornant mistakes and outright rudeness. If it is determined that it is unrealistic to educate a population that is 40k and growing, then I feel those principles need to be dropped and the event needs to be changed and more services put in place instead. Or, as I said earlier, end the event because it's run it's course and can no longer be sustained (literal meaning) on the guiding principles. So for example, if it's determined that dumpsters are needed because far too many people can't understand sort, stomp and pack out then let's not pretend LNT and self-reliance are so important. Holding up a standard for the event, then allowing people to ignore it just seems pointless. I hope that makes sense. "but for the problem few (or many) it is a weekend to week-long überconcert without provided music. As ticket prices climb along with gas prices... and free provisions decline, the resentment... climb too. " Again, if the dominant group attending has become people looking for nothing more than a weekend party, who are resentful that their ticket doesn't provide amenities, then the event needs to accept the decline. It is no longer what it claims to be. Change the event and become something else, something more entertainment oriented. or just acknowledge it's over and end it. BM is not the end-all, be-all of experiences. I'd like to see it try to deal with the growth, but the world won't end if it stops. :) Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:00:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c164db72-f16d-4b84-a941-a9d1c37a9960 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T22:00:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a7de353a-1e27-4507-8ca6-fe241acf5f6e Geekster, what you are saying is false according to all of the sources I can find. Where is the data to back up what you're saying? I would really love to see some. Here's what is being put forth from what I can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_economy Here's an excerpt: Environmentally friendly fuel: Plants use sunlight and photosynthesis to take CO2 out of the Earth's atmosphere to make vegetable oil. The same CO2 is then put back after it is burned in the engine. Thus vegetable oil does not increase the CO2 in the atmosphere, and does not contribute to the problem of greenhouse gas. It is really a way of catching and storing solar power. It is a true renewable energy. Burning fossil fuels releases sulfur dioxide and other harmful air pollution.[2] Because vegetable oil has not been inside the earth for millions of years, it is not contaminated with things like sulfur and burns much cleaner, even than Ultra low sulphur diesel. Burning fossil fuels also contributes to the greenhouse gas problem. Note that if fossil fuels are used in any aspect of production and distribution (tractors, fuel trucks, etc.), then there would be some contribution to pollution. For it to be 100% non-polluting all aspects of vegetable oil production would have to be non-polluting as well. ------ END ------ As I said in another nearby reply, Biodiesel is a whole other story. It has a process which yields harmful byproducts and requires another step to produce. That may be what you're referring to because most people confuse the two. Here's another excerpt from this link: http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/frequently-asked-questions/ How does SVO compare with biodiesel? SVO and Biodiesel are quite different fuels however they are often confused as biodiesel is produced from SVO. Biodiesel is made when vegetable oil molecules are split four ways by a chemical reaction called transesterification. Since biodiesel is produced from SVO it also has low net CO2 emissions. However, since the transesterification reaction requires energy and some of the chemicals needed to carry out the reaction generally come from fossil fuels this means that biodiesel has higher net CO2 emissions than SVO. In short, SVO is the better of the two fuels for reducing CO2 emissions. ------ END ------ Many veggie oil enthusiasts consider Biodiesel to be a "boondoggle" and a wolf in sheep's clothing. As long as a Diesel has sufficient heating elements (ie, all required conversion parts like heated filters as well as something like a PlantDrive vegtherm and a plate & frame heat exchanger) and is tuned-up properly so it doesn't smoke after warm-up, the CO2 emissions are drastically lower. All public studies done with Diesel engines running on Veggie Oil are old and those engines didn't have the proper conversion kits installed. The difference between the two is like night & day. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:14:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a7de353a-1e27-4507-8ca6-fe241acf5f6e sayr 2007-09-06T22:14:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9eeda6f1-021a-4f19-a35d-1c9170d1e011 I apologize, and agree, too. Especially since I've seen Burning Man in so many mainstream publications, and TV shows that cater to the worst possible demographics for this event, it will get exponentially worse, with the responisibility shifting to the BMORG. The Porta Potty people will absolutely not do it anymore very soon. There will be increased presence by law enforcement, as we can't police ouselves anymore. I'm afraid the magic is almost dead, and now it's just a huge party. I was alarmed at how many people that I talked to had NO IDEA what the principals and common etiquette were, and had no interest in knowing. I strongly believe that a questionaire should be filled out before a ticket can be purchased, and even then this will continue to fall apart, unless there is a serious concerted effort to let people know what it's all about. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:06:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9eeda6f1-021a-4f19-a35d-1c9170d1e011 Jesse 2007-09-06T22:06:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#71075b23-4c26-463c-af07-dae56634813d It doesn't take heat to make vegetable oil, it takes pressure, hence the "oil press". The oil press may be electric or manual (yikes!) but the electricity can come from solar or a generator running on veggie oil. You could have a hydroelectric oil press that is running off river water. Algal vegetable oil is also made by pressing algae. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm Biodiesel production is a whole other thing altogether which involves caustic chemicals and semi-toxic byproducts. I'm not convinced it's a viable, economical or safe alternative fuel. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:47:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#71075b23-4c26-463c-af07-dae56634813d sayr 2007-09-06T21:47:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5ee2fd0-0158-4600-8868-a4d09c7de16e >> You get so deffensive that CA doesn't have the most in your eyes, then where do you think has the most trash layin around? If you re-read that last post of yours, you will find a dictionary-definition of defensive behavior. I never called you a "biggot". I never called you names. I said you were *TALKING LIKE* a biggot who would generalize about Californians as weirdo freaks because you were basically pronouncing Californians to be litterbugs by way of their roads. To me there's a difference between a behavioral comparison and name-calling. You say if I drive up and down the interstate, I will notice trash. I drive it all the time and I honestly am not seeing the same picture you're seeing. I could go shoot some video and post it to YouTube so you can see what roads REALLY look like in California. This is so fucking silly anyway. So interstates huh? Well doesn't an interstate run between states? So who's to say it's California's or the Californians' faults that (according to you) the roads are littered? I think your generalization is false and my accusations of Nevada being a big ole eco-slap was to level the playing field and show you that "your state" shouldn't be made exempt from your judgement. If anything, your state is stinkier and more polluting than many other problem states. Fact is: you started off the CA vs NV thing when you pretty much *blamed californians* for the litter problem alongside the roads in NV near to BM. I have a right to hold you to that without being accused of twisting the truth and being dishonest when you don't want to accept that NV has enough of its fair shares of problems, so therefore Nevadans have no excuse to criticize. I don't know, but you say that where you are, they are be trying, but where do you think most of NV's problems lie? Southern or Northern NV? Where is the largest population within NV? How is that area doing on its quest for preservation of planet earth? And I never accused you of supporting "Desert Dumping", so save yourself the tirade and please don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth. I was just bringing it up as another major problem NV has that you don't seem to be factoring into the environmental impact of the state. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:20:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5ee2fd0-0158-4600-8868-a4d09c7de16e sayr 2007-09-06T21:20:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#78f79879-97d3-4500-8f19-ff561811139d I stand corrected. Veggie oil actually produces MORE CO2 than a pound of dino oil when all the activity required to get it to the point of combustion is taken into account. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:09:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#78f79879-97d3-4500-8f19-ff561811139d Geekster 2007-09-06T21:09:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3bb760d5-eef0-4388-a74c-a701b7ab5abb It takes heat to make veggie oil. Where does the heat come from? Burning Man is in no way sustainable or green event. It is a big party in the desert with naked women and explosions. Woohoo! The Green Man theme was a big fucking joke and most of you just didn't get it. To get back to the issue, either the Burning Man organization will start supplying a means to collect litter and trash during the event in the same manner that they provide ice and outhouses or the BLM will force them to. It is that simple. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:57:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3bb760d5-eef0-4388-a74c-a701b7ab5abb $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-06T20:57:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9440167a-0fc0-4c91-b297-16bf1872cb25 "The diesel exhaust from burning vegetable oil puts out virtually no harmful emissions and 0 greenhouse gasses" Absolute horse shit. A pound of veggie oil produces EXACTLY as much CO2 when burned as a pound of dino oil. And if instead of recycling paper we would shove it down abandoned coal mines, we could make coal carbon neutral too. Put a pound of carbon taken from the air back into the hole created from taking a pound of carbon out of the earth to put into the air. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:52:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9440167a-0fc0-4c91-b297-16bf1872cb25 Geekster 2007-09-06T20:52:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2c894f07-1b21-4453-82db-e3f852b9894f Okay, I propose... let's both take a deep breath (figuratively speaking) and really try to *relate* to each other on a level of understanding. >> re: center camp... no, I really don't think trash boundaries are unclear in that situation. If there weren't trash cans at Center Camp, I would agree with you. However, there are trash cans at Center Camp and that means, they're (however ambiguously) inviting people not to reuse and/or carry that cup with them back to their personal recycling bag/can. If their intention is for people to reduce/reuse/recycle and not get a new paper cup everytime they want a fresh drink, they should take away the trash cans @ Center Camp, not provide paper cups and have pretty & inspiringly decorated signs posted to the effect of "BYOC - Bring Yo' Own Cup!" or something. That's if they really want to put the full push behind the LNT / "Pack it Out" intention. It needs to be a rule across the board and an issue needs to be really made to each group (vehicle) entering that the event is in jeopardy because 4 out of 5 people are leaving their traces everywhere. Alternatively, if they find that approach to be futile or not yielding the result they're intending, they must improvise (if the event is to continue) and start providing mandatory trash dumpage - either for an additional fee or included in ticket price - at the event exit. After all, Burning Man may be a simulation of future living for many of the diehard burners, but for the problem few (or many) it is a weekend to week-long überconcert without provided music. As ticket prices climb along with gas prices... and free provisions decline, the resentment (and thus chaos & unconscious rebellion) climb too. This results in many spiteful fuckers, who you would probably agree "don't belong there" and they act out in these painfully stupid ways. Sad, but arguably true. As for sustainability: How sustainable is it for each person to use, say... on average 50 gallons of fossil fuel (no scientific data exists to backup or debunk for this figure, but the actual figure might be higher) to, during and from the event? That's about 200,000 gallons of fuel burned. That is a WHOLE lot of greenhouse gas emissions and a drain on our planet's lifeblood. Let's say 5% (±2000 people) use vegetable oil instead of gas and petro-diesel.. that would be awesome! But it's more like 0.5% if that. That would require ±200 people to be veggie only. FYI: - The diesel exhaust from burning vegetable oil puts out virtually no harmful emissions and 0 greenhouse gasses. - Veggie Diesel exhaust still puts out a small amount of Carbon Monoxide, ("small" provided the conversion system is properly heating the oil for better combustion within the engine of the car, RV, generator etc...) but the molecular structure of the carbon in Diesel exhaust is heavy, so the polluting particulate matter is heavier than air and doesn't rise into the atmosphere to create smog and pollution. Ever wonder why Diesels are Smog Exempt? ... or why busses and semi-trucks run on it? It's also about 50-90% more efficient on MPG and the engines last 200-500% longer since they're made to withstand higher compression. Semi-trucks accumulate a few hundred-thousand miles a year. - Algae is a sustainable veggie oil source 1 acre = 10,000 gallons. With soybeans, palm, rapeseed (canola) or any other soil-based seedcrop, it's more like (at best) 1 acre = 300 gallons per harvest cycle. Most are around 100 gallons per acre/harvest. And if you want to talk about the pollution the Man puts out when it burns... sheesh.. especially with all the high-tech gadgetry (plastic, metal, chemicals) that goes up in smoke with the wood. The temple is much cleaner!! :) But the black, heavy smoke that rises with the man is like a factory smokestack. Who knows what the figures for the environmental impact are. ?? Let's not even get into the consumerist (Christmas-style) shopping spree that ensues the week of the event... or that nearly every supermarket along the interstate are drained of their entire water (and ice) supply because of burners buying water close to the event. Therefore the local residents have no place to buy their water and ice. Still, the BMorg encourages people to buy water at or near home... but the negative there is that carting the extra 15 gallons (120Lbs) of water-weight per person burns extra gas and takes its toll there. BM is NOT sustainable and won't ever be until everyone is growing their own gas & food and carting their water and trash all the way to & from home. And not stopping at gas stations to buy their fuel. They must bring it with them all the way to & from home. Self-reliance will always be an illusion, because even if you do all of the above, you still must rely upon the land, the weather, the government (which will never go away) and each other. So how far do you want to take it? As for who "belongs" or "does not belong" at BM: That is a moot (or moop) point since those who you would say "don't belong" at BM are the ones who are creating this problem. There are no and will be no superficial exclusionary criteria, that need to be met at the entrance, which would separate those who "belong" from those who "do not belong", thus excluding those who "do not belong". That simply means all who come will be there and obviously a portion of those people are acting irresponsibly. The question is: should they be "cottled" and "enabled" to keep perpetrating their irresponsible deeds? I wouldn't want to look at it that way in any case. I would look at it as acting in a responsible and organized way as a whole, due to certain inherent neglect on the individual level. I have no illusions about the principles of sustainability & self-reliance when it comes to BM because I acknowledge that it is an open event to human beings and as the number of those rises, the likelihood of partial failure, [at the individual level, per capita (or per campita) and thus, as a whole] of those 2 principles increases and must be met with compensatory revisions to keep the LNT factor as high as it needs to be for the event be *truly* sustainable. I see it as a "bend like bamboo and flow like water, don't shatter like a rock" thing. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:45:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2c894f07-1b21-4453-82db-e3f852b9894f sayr 2007-09-06T20:45:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3339520b-e2c9-4199-8b31-ed26f8cf2185 >But bringing it home is not always an option I call bullshit. If you can bring it in, you can bring it out. If not, don't bring it. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:39:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3339520b-e2c9-4199-8b31-ed26f8cf2185 !drew! 2007-09-06T20:39:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#239d335b-77b0-4d77-a1ff-87c895b6c3f7 Maybe a compromise can be reached? If Recycle Camp are taking aluminium drinks cans, maybe the project can be expanded to include all items with a reclaim value? As I understand it, the money from the drinks receptacles goes to fund local projects - I'd much rather donate my squished steel tins and water bottles to help a local cause, than drag their sorry asses back to my Recycle Bin, over 600 miles away. Sure, you'd still have to pack out your used wetwipes and organic trash - but - from my observations, a good 60% of our trash was used plastic water containers, so it would give the less 'abled' amongst us even less of an excuse to strew trash around as they leave. Just my tuppenceworth, like Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:29:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#239d335b-77b0-4d77-a1ff-87c895b6c3f7 Speedingpullet 2007-09-06T20:29:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6afc5b44-2b3a-4e02-b4da-66065bb1fadd Wake up Naomi! The majority of BM attendees ARE ravers, I would say a good 99.99999999999%. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:13:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6afc5b44-2b3a-4e02-b4da-66065bb1fadd ॐ Milana ॐ 2007-09-06T20:13:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8bdd25b7-3f55-4bdd-ba40-e16fb1d36bbc "Maybe the BMORG needs to suck it up and provide some dumpsters" Sorry, but I think that is a retarded idea. People had no problems carrying all that shit INTO the event, it shouldn't be any more of a problem carrying it out. You should be hauling out what you hauled in minus what you deposited in the pots. Plan better. Remove all that packaging before you go out there. Don't take so much stuff like fresh meats and veggies that make stinking waste. Use caned stuff, smash the cans, you end up taking out less than you took in. I really don't want to camp with the kind of people that need a fucking dumpster nearby but that's just me. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:57:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8bdd25b7-3f55-4bdd-ba40-e16fb1d36bbc Geekster 2007-09-06T19:57:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#313ff677-a811-4071-9000-cec5abd18e8b in regards to lost vegas/reno as environmental nightmares in the high desert: YES, that is soooo correct. so why add to the devastation with bm??? we are living in a exponentially polarizing world.....so: IF YOU ARE NOT A PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU *****ARE****** THE PROBLEM. pretty simple shit. (sayr, your trash alternative ideas are well intended, but the only sure fire way to prevent the garbage is to cut it off at the consumer level...i.e. all the garbage i am looking at on the corner in my soma neighborhood was purchased at a cheap wage location a few weeks ago and is now destined for the dump, what is the diff btwn the ocean dumps in ess eff and the desert dumps in nv??? we truly are all interdependent.....change begins at home, yo~) (not to mention the amount spent and the taxes this generates....to pay for debt generated by the central bank and the war.....it is the bottom line....so, i guess bm is sucking bush/cheney/rockefeller cock??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? yah, go burners, go) Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:39:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#313ff677-a811-4071-9000-cec5abd18e8b $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-06T19:39:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#55d75bd6-d8d1-44d8-a812-ca83ab6329da hmm looks like you links provided prove that there IS a recycling program and state laws requiring recycling, contrary to what you claimed of NV refusing to recycle at all. Sounds like mandatory recycling not refusing to recycle. Sure LV's program needs help, but that doesn't mean that there is no recycling as you claimed. In northern NV the recycling works much better (where I live and is infered when I said HERE). I was last in CA a few weeks ago. Texas, Yes, NC yes, Jeresey no never been. What does my job have to do with litter? If you have driven so much and notice litter so much, where do you feel has the most litter? You get so deffensive that CA doesn't have the most in your eyes, then where do you think has the most trash layin around? Illegal dumping is a big problem everywhere, what does that have to do with an observation about roadside litter, NOTHING. Putting more words in my mouth? Now you have me supporting illegal dumping. Why not let me do my own talking? Remember it was you who started your argument with name calling, NOT me. try looking in that mirror your trying to hold up. Its my right to express my opinion about trash without being called a redneck and a biggot. All I was trying to say is I have personally observed more litter in CA than anywhere else and you have to turn it into a name calling match, can't find a good argument other than to call me names? You claim to value truth out one side of your mouth, yet out the other you claim there Nevadans refuse to recycle at all then try to prove it by putting up links about our recycling programs. You have a weird definition of the truth. False notions? What that we have a recycling program? Yep they pick it up every other week, I guess I must be halucinating about that. I simply made an observation, I didn't do a litter per mile survey, and neither have you, so we can argue about who sees the most litter till we are blue in the face, but truth is dumbasses keep throwin shit out the window, everywhere. Everywhere need less litter if you ask me. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:25:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#55d75bd6-d8d1-44d8-a812-ca83ab6329da Snowlover 2007-09-06T19:25:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bdbe35b2-04cb-4c8f-837b-39eb5cdcabdb thats a great idea!!! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:03:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bdbe35b2-04cb-4c8f-837b-39eb5cdcabdb Tigerlily 2007-09-06T19:03:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#18fa66eb-b99d-455b-ac85-0c928754c178 Sorry if this double-posts... tribe is being funny again and it didn't show up after reloading the page 3x. >> we have a very good curbside recycling program here, so you may want to check your facts before you open your mouth. http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2005/02/03/cover_story/cover.txt http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=6974563 I can provide many more links if you're still going to argue this with me. The fact is... I'm NOT the one who needs to check my facts. My parents live in LV and my dad has explained the whole situation to me in pretty thorough depth. People try to recycle there, but the sobering truth is that the recycling bins are hard to get and they DON'T EVEN GO to a recycling yard at this point. They pretty much go to the dump because their infrastructure for recycling isn't set up to the point where it's cost efficient to recycle. It costs them more to get the shit to a recycling yard... so they dump it in the ground. And if you want to discuss the issue of "desert dumping", Nevadans are notorious for it http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2006/sep/20/566620397.html So you're P.O.V. is that - as long as it's not by the roadside, it's cool with me - eh? >> Trash on the side of the road is something that I notice when I drive, I just noticed CA roads, on average, have much more litter than anywhere in the country. I notice it too, but here in CA (as in most other states) people serving community service time pick up trash on the roadside of Highways and main roads. I drive a LOT and my experience has been very different from yours. When was the last time you were in CA? Have you ever driven down the road in Texas? North Carolina? NEW JERSEY?!?! What... are you a travelling salesman or something?! >> Why are you so worried that someone thinks your roads are trashy? WHy does it offend you so badly? It doesn't offend or worry me. I'm just calling your bluff on your narrow-minded bias about CA roads. It's just bullshit and I value truth. It's my right to disagree with you and prove my point without you calling me a whiner. How passive agressive of you! Anyone who disagrees with you is a whiner? Who crowned you imperial master of truth? And your state is putting out EVERY BIT as much pollution as any other, so I have a right to hold you to the false notions you've concocted and are spewing forth. For me this debate is less about CA and more about NV. As I said before, I'm just holding up a mirror dude. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:01:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#18fa66eb-b99d-455b-ac85-0c928754c178 sayr 2007-09-06T19:01:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#83c9fb7b-c70e-428f-8d02-e6afc5e1420b We hauled all our trash back to Seattle in our u haul and on top of the element. It was smelly leaky and icky, but that just what we had to do! Once when bag busted open we spent at least an hour cleaning it all up. UP and down the highway. Proved to be a bit dangerous at times but we got most of it and lots of other peoples garabage. I'm sorry that you have to deal with all the garbage people put on your community though :( Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:56:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#83c9fb7b-c70e-428f-8d02-e6afc5e1420b Tigerlily 2007-09-06T18:56:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eaf7213b-abb2-4953-a3a4-5c20f14a96b0 >> we have a very good curbside recycling program here, so you may want to check your facts before you open your mouth. http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2005/02/03/cover_story/cover.txt http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=6974563 I can provide many more links if you're still going to argue this with me. The fact is... I'm NOT the one who needs to check my facts. My parents live in LV and my dad has explained the whole situation to me in pretty thorough depth. People try to recycle there, but the sobering truth is that the recycling bins are hard to get and they DON'T EVEN GO to a recycling yard at this point. They pretty much go to the dump because their infrastructure for recycling isn't set up to the point where it's cost efficient to recycle. It costs them more to get the shit to a recycling yard... so they dump it in the ground. And if you want to discuss the issue of "desert dumping", Nevadans are notorious for it http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2006/sep/20/566620397.html So you're P.O.V. is that - as long as it's not by the roadside, it's cool with me - eh? >> Trash on the side of the road is something that I notice when I drive, I just noticed CA roads, on average, have much more litter than anywhere in the country. I notice it too, but here in CA (as in most other states) people serving community service time pick up trash on the roadside of Highways and main roads. I drive a LOT and my experience has been very different from yours. When was the last time you were in CA? Have you ever driven down the road in Texas? North Carolina? NEW JERSEY?!?! What... are you a travelling salesman or something?! >> Why are you so worried that someone thinks your roads are trashy? WHy does it offend you so badly? It doesn't offend or worry me. I'm just calling your bluff on your narrow-minded bias about CA roads. It's just bullshit and I value truth. It's my right to disagree with you and prove my point without you calling me a whiner. How passive agressive of you! Anyone who disagrees with you is a whiner? Who crowned you imperial master of truth? And your state is putting out EVERY BIT as much pollution as any other, so I have a right to hold you to the false notions you've concocted and are spewing forth. For me this debate is less about CA and more about NV. As I said before, I'm just holding up a mirror dude. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:50:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eaf7213b-abb2-4953-a3a4-5c20f14a96b0 sayr 2007-09-06T18:50:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff815f40-2beb-4e56-9e2a-f340927c4e01 I was a virgin as were 5 of the 6 in our camp. We didn't leave a thing.............so don't automatically assume it was BM virgins doing the littering. I saw plenty of BM veterans drunk or stoned out of their minds dropping cig butts, assorted garbage etc. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:39:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff815f40-2beb-4e56-9e2a-f340927c4e01 glennzzz 2007-09-06T18:39:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d01d2736-204b-49e5-849d-c5670186ecc2 sayr, re: center camp... no, I really don't think trash boundaries are unclear in that situation. which is my point. People seem to be lacking in basic personal respnsiblity and common sense. If someone finds it that confusing, then they don't belong at something like burning man which depends on those 2 things. and no, that comment and my prior one are not being exclusive or elitist. I didn't say only a certain kind of trendy group belongs, as you were happy to jump to. I said that burning man is not for everyone, nor is it meant to be. Just like most events are not for everone. There are basic BM guidelines for a reason. They are a fundamental part of the event. They are intended to create a different experience than a standard event. If a person can't or won't acknowledge them then they shouldn't be there. Just like someone who hates heat and camping and dust shouldn't be there. Going to Burning Man doesn't make you a better person. THAT would be elitist. But it's very clearly not for everyone. but neither is country music. or haggis. re: the org providing dumpsters... you did not offer a suggestion that would instill responsibility and respect, or a solution that would help educate. You offered a solution that excuses everyone from those basics by cleaning up after them. The event is supposed to be participatory. That means both the fun things and the not-so-fun things. what's my solution? Obviously there is a huge deficiency in education if people are attending the event asking where to buy something and not knowing to pack out their trash. That has to be resolved on an individual and org level. If the event can't be structured in a way that educates adequately, if the basic principles can no longer be upheld, then it's a sign the event has become unsustainable. Which means either call it dead and stop holding it, or restructure the event to eliminate the responsibility and participation aspects that much of the population isn't grasping. In other words, the org and attendees either find a way to maintain the principles such as LNT, or they change the event to reduce or eliminate them. If such a large population of the event is so ignorant, then why should BM claim to have these principles? As we learned earlier, LNT is actually in the permit. Which suggests that if it can't be upheld it becomes a permit violation. If so many issues are becomming problematic and requiring regulation as you say, then the event is no longer what it claims to be and should acknowledge that entirely. Either people are held to the guidelines or the guidelines are diminished/changed and the org starts providing for people like every other event. It's disingenuous to claim attendees need to do one thing yet perform in a way that contradicts it. "Their self-reliance cannot be relied upon... therefore it is now everyone's problem." uh, yes. exactly. everyone's. not the parental entity of the org. so if the event has become so unwieldy that attendees cannot find a way to self-educate and self-enforce then the event no longer performs as it claims to. and it no longer has the population it claims to. which goes back to my previous paragraph. I'm basing my view on the current guidelines and structure that exist. and suggestions such as excusing people and taking care of them goes against those things. so either find a way to uphold them or eliminate them. either find a solution or acknowledge the system has failed. an half-hearted inbetween state does nothing to benefit the community. you claim the boat's been cut in half. that means you either let it sink. or you build a different boat. trying to patch the boat will not help by that point. I'm not trying to be black and white or severe. There's the whole topic of education that has been left untouched. (I said education -- informing ticket buyers of the event structure and guidelines -- NOT indoctrination.) But seriously, if BM can't uphold it's own basic principles then why continue? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:16:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d01d2736-204b-49e5-849d-c5670186ecc2 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T18:16:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#66c016ec-d2bc-4135-9005-dfab5d7f1c13 Grace: "I don't like you...or your bunny ears." the feeling is mutual. so at least we have that in common. ;) Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:17:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#66c016ec-d2bc-4135-9005-dfab5d7f1c13 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T18:17:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#df782e3c-df0b-4840-9716-407363eb0e62 You know, the world is full of problems, I think people are the root of most of them... let's kill all the people. If this is your version of problem solving, start with yourself. Please. Lift your head up high and blow your brains out. For the rest of us, we see a problem, and believe that with due diligence and hard work, problems can be solved. LNT is an individual wilderness camping ethic-- Burning Man is a city. It would be great if cities would all ascribe to wilderness ethics-- BRC seems to be one of the few that is trying. If BRC was truly LNT, we'd have to pack out our own poop, but LNT in that sense is not feasible for substantial health reasons within a large population. Maybe it should be that way with garbage, to some lesser extent. In my experience, the biggest trash problem is the 20% rule. 20% of people do 80% of the work. So, in a group of 5, 1 person gets left with 5 people's garbage (including theirs), and they simply can't deal with it. It would be great if the other 4 people weren't so irresponsible-- we need to work on that. In the interim, the community (or the organization, whichever) could try to meet the well-mening 20 percenters half way, and give them some sensible option, besides providing gate flags to tie huge lumps of trash poorly to their cars (true story). Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#df782e3c-df0b-4840-9716-407363eb0e62 Metric 2007-09-06T18:04:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dc0d8fb9-7856-49a2-8648-a4edc8f6b25e i was outraged when I was on an art car thursday night and I seen some smuck toss his cig on the ground... I kindly asked him to pick it up and he acted like he didnt understand english... that was the beginning.... I danced the night away at Opulant Temple and on Friday morning I decided to help the fellow people left over gather the tremendous amount of bottles, cans, clothes, and other various amounts of trash around the area. It was kinda appauling to see a green event so trashy. What kind of example are we setting, not all of us are like that just throwing our junk around... but seriously why does it have to be like this. Do people let there bedrooms look like this? I hope that by some peoples carelessness that it doesnt ruin it for all people Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:36:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dc0d8fb9-7856-49a2-8648-a4edc8f6b25e Sunny D. Williams 2007-09-06T17:36:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#91008250-d464-48d4-91ab-4f0f9ce9c69c I was appalled by how many piles of garbage I saw littering the event on Tuesday morning while leaving. It was especially bad this year. I cannot say I was surprised given the number of virgins present this year. Anyway, as an example we were talking to a belhop in Reno Wednesday morning and he was like, Oh, but the event picks up after it is over. Automatically assuming that that was the case. We tried to emphasize that that is not in fact how it is. How we are supposed to pack it in AND pack it out. He just didn't get it. It took several attempts at explanation before he said, so you have to bring home your own trash, in a voice that was stymied by the idea. Too many people don't get it. And if they don't leave their shit behind they don't bother to tie it down and 'oh well' if it isn't there when they get home. It's only going to get worse too. The borg needs to take a more empathic approach. That is all there is to it. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:12:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#91008250-d464-48d4-91ab-4f0f9ce9c69c Tony 2007-09-06T17:12:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#83633eda-eb65-45ae-bc86-0f439fe6d1ca well said sayr, I agree that everyone should be perfectly capable of taking ALL of their trash to a proper disposal site. I have no problem accomplishing this, and I surely would rather everyone else be capable. But unfortunately it doesn't look that everyone can handle it, its obvious from the state of the roads etc. following BM. No matter how much we talk up our ideals, fact is, there is trash left everywhere after BM, its plainly obvious to the burners, the locals and the state and fed govt.. Right now the state spends untold hours and dollars to pick up the fugative trash left strewn about. At some point the state will no longer want to foot the bill of picking up all the trash from the side of the road and hauling it to the landfill. Unfortunately it won't be long until the state either: a) sues BMorg for their trash removal service they NOW provide, b) hounds the BLM to modify the permit to force the event to address this problem or c) tries to prevent the event altogether. We as a group need to step up to solve this issue before it is solved for us. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:56:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#83633eda-eb65-45ae-bc86-0f439fe6d1ca Snowlover 2007-09-06T16:56:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e1ad5a51-99f8-42da-a14a-a9f5214c307d we have a very good curbside recycling program here, so you may want to check your facts before you open your mouth. Nevada refuses to recycle HAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHAHA thanks for the laugh Trash on the side of the road is something that I notice when I drive, I just noticed CA roads, on average, have much more litter than anywhere in the country. Sounds like an observation to me. Look around next time you drive down the interstate and you just may agree. Why are you so worried that someone thinks your roads are trashy? WHy does it offend you so badly? Is litter removal your job? If so you really need to step it up. But anyway, I think the best solution is for an enterprising local resident to rent a bunch of dumpsters and charge to dump trash. There was one gentleman doing just this in Wadsworth. I know a few Gerlach residents, I'll see if they would be interested. Hell maybe I'll set it up, seems like it has a lot of profit potential, all the while working to keep trash off the side of the road and from overflowing businesses dumpsters. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:37:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e1ad5a51-99f8-42da-a14a-a9f5214c307d Snowlover 2007-09-06T16:37:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#cec6af09-5759-4d36-87b8-8b7b1d310e62 THERE IS SIMPLY NO PLACE IN THE DELICATE ECOSYSTEM OF THE HIGH DESERT FOR HUMAN BEINGS EN MASSE. Like Reno? Las Vegas? Salt Lake city? Bend, OR? Get over yourself. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:30:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#cec6af09-5759-4d36-87b8-8b7b1d310e62 TomCat 2007-09-06T16:30:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#baf87f2e-2b02-485b-b5d1-826c058cc5b6 Wow... I have to semi-agree with this person. I don't have an attachment to seeing BM go on and on and on forever. I've learned what I needed to. I hear a lot of talk here about how people should plan ahead and only bring food without packaging and da d-da d-da about what we SHOULD BE doing.. The problem is not US who are reading this freakin dialogue. The problem is ALL of the droves of spectators, careless (don't wanna care) newbies... and no amount of SHOULDS are going to stop them until the BMorg takes responsibility for them by providing a full garbage service @ the BM exit. The concept of "radical self-reliance" is already - in many ways, but not altogether - a fleeting illusion at Burning Man. If they were counting on "radical self-reliance" there would be no porta-potties, water trucks all day, ice trucks, security all around the man when he burns... there would be no Center Camp w/ Mocha Maté Laté's etc.. etc... Wake up and smell the rampant pollution. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:11:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#baf87f2e-2b02-485b-b5d1-826c058cc5b6 sayr 2007-09-06T16:11:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5d61d5b-cf19-4eea-8852-86c5dbc006cd <<<<Tell me, what is YOUR solution to the unconscious littering crisis? Cuz so far I haven't heard one... just idealistic concepts of how everyone should be behaving.>>> Well, there is one way sure fire solution to this problem....END THE EVENT ALL TOGETHER. After reading the posts and witnessing the environmental NIGHTMARE that the event causes, I feel it is finally time to stand up and work vigilantly to shut bm down for good. THERE IS SIMPLY NO PLACE IN THE DELICATE ECOSYSTEM OF THE HIGH DESERT FOR HUMAN BEINGS EN MASSE. I realize that a lot of you hold bm to the level of jesus christ.....the ability to detach and grow is far beyond your grasp. But, for the others out there that are over the energy this event puts back into the universe, drop me a note....I am contacting legal advise in NV today to get the ball rolling. Cheers! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:15:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5d61d5b-cf19-4eea-8852-86c5dbc006cd $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-06T15:15:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#10c894da-98f6-4348-b613-5071175a9776 I wondered if they had to fight the Board of Health to let us use our own mugs - or whether they just did it without getting approval or what. I really liked using my own cup. I even tried it at a Starbucks in Reno - and they let me use it there, too! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:40:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#10c894da-98f6-4348-b613-5071175a9776 Shriekh 2007-09-06T14:40:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d78d95d4-9ebf-4886-aad1-6a8a0b02ac9d Very well said, Naomi....I agree with you all the way....don't freaking generalize a group. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:32:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d78d95d4-9ebf-4886-aad1-6a8a0b02ac9d Smelly 2007-09-06T14:32:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff6c9329-0c2c-49bf-9b3e-1cf686803b4a I disagree.....I know plenty of ravers, fucked up, sleep deprived, etc. that still always pack it in AND out.... I take offense to the generalizing of the ravers ;-( Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:31:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ff6c9329-0c2c-49bf-9b3e-1cf686803b4a Smelly 2007-09-06T14:31:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86f4a83c-2208-4f8a-90c1-6ab3fc70eaec The problem isn't what to do with the trash-- the problem is that people need to plan ahead so that they won't have to deal with trash. For instance, only bring food that can be consumed completely (leaving no peels, cores, etc.). Have a camp plan for dealing with recyclables. Carry stuff in containers (cardboard boxes, paper sacks) that can be burned in burn barrels before you leave, and bring trash bags for the rest. Basically, don't pack anything onto the playa you can't pack out. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:13:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86f4a83c-2208-4f8a-90c1-6ab3fc70eaec Tapestry 2007-09-06T14:13:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0c479da6-cdd2-43d5-8ea8-5ec9a42f1dea If I'm guilty of losing trash on the highway then I deserve the exact same shit that I'm slinging at others. If I'm spreading garbage all over the highway then I'm just as much of an asshole as anyone else is for not being more responsible. In my defense it was only a couple of plastic parts to something, not 33 gallons of stinky dirty food garbage (THAT stuff was very very secure!), and I picked it up right away, but still, I should have been more careful, and y'all have the right to give me a hard time for letting ANY crap fly off of my car. I also get pretty pissed off at this stupid attitude that I see some people display, where they say that since the little towns make a lot of money off of BM, then it's okay that they have to clean up some of our garbage. That rationalization is arrogant and ignorant, no further explanation needed. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:15:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0c479da6-cdd2-43d5-8ea8-5ec9a42f1dea Ted 2007-09-06T07:15:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d0884589-f346-4ed0-a022-acb14db0c8de Cameron - I like the way you are thinking! LNT is not just for the playa. A small price to pay, I don't want my pet or child finding someones 5 gallon bucket of waste and kitty litter that has accidentally fallen. Change the math to hire some guys and trucks, and see what you come up with for your 250 TONS. That could help the economy or at least some guys (gals) pockets! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:53:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d0884589-f346-4ed0-a022-acb14db0c8de Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:53:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fc5d279c-e323-4589-924b-93defba9aab9 Flower it is horrible. Today we saw a pickup truck with empty water jugs falling off as the truck turned onto the entrance ramp to interstate 80. It's not over yet. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:49:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fc5d279c-e323-4589-924b-93defba9aab9 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:49:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#008a4f84-f577-43de-81cb-02bfcb4d61a9 Ms. Dynomite, You are completely missing my point.. I understand all of what you're saying and wish everybody who goes to BM was as responsible as you're pretending they're going to be. What I'm saying is that since THEY'RE NOT (obviously) NOT reliable enough to not trash the surrounding cities, it has now become everyone's problem... mostly the BMorg. How does one deal with the problem? As for the drink cup @ Center Camp thing, it wasn't a serious question... it was an illustration of a point and how the trash boundaries are very unclear. So anyway, you have your way of dealing w/ it... preaching consciousness... has that worked so far? If it had, would this thread be here? The provisions to make sure it doesn't happen again doesn't lie in education and enforcement, because that has been a big mission for years. It's NOT WORKING! I'm not a big fan of (as you put it) "ignorant jackasses" taking BM down however many notches they are... but that has become part of the reality now. It may not be part of everyone's reality at BM, but when they leave and see all of the trash along the roads, it for sure enters their reality in a very visceral way. It's a "learn to live with it" kind of thing at this point. You can't uninvite them and expect them not to show up. And as for me *comparing* the BMorg to "party promoters"... I'm not saying that's what they are - it's an analogy... and well, it's a similar thing. I can't count how many times I've been at a venue, post-party in the morning unloading my gear and watched the cleanup crew throwing MOUNTAINS of water bottles and other recyclable materials in with the trash and had NO intention of recycling it all. A boxtruck full of trash and 80% of it recyclable. The party promoters left that part (recycling) blank. And these are supposedly "conscious" people. I'm saying at this point, the trash issue is left pretty much blank. It's up to the individual and that isn't working so well. To compare it to providing water for people is silly. That hasn't been much of a problem since almost everyone brings enough water for themself and 2 other people. The trash problem is more complex. Look, my point is that there are already alot of issues that have become regulated (or provided) because the BMorg has found them to be enough of a problem that they cannot count on everyone to practice self-reliance on their own... therefore rules and provisions had to be put into effect to deal with those issues. Water is not one of them. Ice is. Obviously not everyone has gotten their mega-freeze 4000 solarpowered deepfreeze unit that keeps things frozen at 110º in the desert for a week. So they have ice trucks. And would you want me to list off the problem issues they have addressed by putting rules into place? Why should trash not be top of that list if it's such a rampant problem? >> Frankly, burning man is NOT for the average person, nor is it meant to be. Sounds like elitism to me. You are trying to float a boat that's cut in half... eventually you will accept the fact that a 1/2 boat doesn't work. The world can't be divided into "your kind" and "everyone else" - AKA the "average" person. Everyone who considers themself part of a radical and revolutionary movement eventually has to realize that it goes nowhere until it encorporates the power of radical inclusion. Otherwise it's just another *average*, flash-in-the-pan group of "non-conformists" who rigidly conform to their own code of conduct and all of those movements have expiration dates. Burning Man is not JUST for freaks, raw-foodists, feathery fedora'd faerie artists who make their own clothes and grow their own food or any other holier than clique of segregationists... it's for anyone who can embody their free will by showing up. I would like to think that eventually everyone will learn how to pick up their shit, but the fact is that not everyone does learn to clean up after themselves by age 5 (as you and I did) or even by age 45... it's a sad reality and we owe it to the surrounding communities to address it in a real way rather than dogmatically sticking to the radical self-reliance mantra on this one. And before you go off again reminding me (assuming that I'm not aware) of the ethics and eco-etiquette of Burning Man, let me assure you that I've been living in this reality for a very long time. The remedial 101 reminders start to get annoying. It's not me who's complaining and saying "oh, it's too hard" or "oh, it's too inconvenient". All I'm saying is that there are obviously thousands of people who want to complain like that and be lazy about their trash. Their self-reliance cannot be relied upon... therefore it is now everyone's problem. Tell me, what is YOUR solution to the unconscious littering crisis? Cuz so far I haven't heard one... just idealistic concepts of how everyone should be behaving. My wife and I drive cars that run on waste veggie oil, but we're not going around telling everyone else not to use petroleum-based fuels... we're doing our part privately to leave a clean wake... but I accept that there are others who don't share our values and I accept them just the same. The world has rules because self-reliance is TRULY an illusion. Nobody in this world is self-reliant... because, it's always conditional upon basic resources and provisions. Trash will always be one of them. Whether you burn your trash or have it hauled away from your house, you don't have a landfill in your backyard do you? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:47:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#008a4f84-f577-43de-81cb-02bfcb4d61a9 sayr 2007-09-06T06:47:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0ffb3613-3660-4153-86c2-d8c715c5e433 Well said sayr. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:41:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0ffb3613-3660-4153-86c2-d8c715c5e433 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:41:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4618966e-0569-4725-b2a7-7bcf0115f619 I don't like you...or your bunny ears. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:37:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4618966e-0569-4725-b2a7-7bcf0115f619 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:37:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#908ee47d-5855-484b-aa61-67707b797a45 Zombie walks on interstate 80 isn't going to work. I understand what you are saying, but it will not work. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:34:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#908ee47d-5855-484b-aa61-67707b797a45 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:34:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bf5f4bcf-48a9-449c-a081-a2a66ba2293d Thank you bobz... Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:25:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bf5f4bcf-48a9-449c-a081-a2a66ba2293d Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:25:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f6e3e099-4af9-406c-bd6c-ebe5eb38a41b YES! Thank you Metric. It's got to be done. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:22:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f6e3e099-4af9-406c-bd6c-ebe5eb38a41b Grace-Indeed 2007-09-06T06:22:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5edbdeb-4796-4f35-b7da-7a35ba2422c3 Cameron, sorry, your post got kind of vague there and lost me on a few points. -- " BM needs over 300 of the large 40 yards dumpsters to handle over 250 TONS of our personal trash. " are you talking about the trash AFTER the event, the trash created by sustaining the clean up crew and removing any public services? or are you talking about the theoretical amount of trash the 40k attendees would make during the event? -- "That's a lot of dumpsters riding up and down Hwy 447." are you talking about the number of dumpsters currently used now during post-burn clean up? are you talking about the dumpsters being transported throughout the event? after the event? all at once? The timing and frequency would determine the strain put on local roads. -- "You tell me; does "LNT" mean ONLY the individual participants or does it also include the entire community and the event as a whole?" Obviously since there is an after-event clean up crew, this is (and has) meant the community/event. It starts at an individual level because having everyone clean up after themselves makes cleaning up after the whole much easier. Since the permit is limited we can't have everyone stay and do community/event clean up, so a smaller group does so. This is partly why we have a DPW. This is also why you clean up stuff that isn't just yours. Like when someone else's trash blows into your camp, or you spend a lot of time at someone else's camp. -- "It's coming like it or not." Says who? and when? And when there is talk of dumpsters at the event all I can think of is this: the smell. A bag or bin of garbage at your camp isn't really noticeable. Thousands of bags all in one place, in the heat will stink like hell's ass. No one is going to want to be camped near the dumpsters, yet some people would have to be unless the dumpsters were deep playa. Which causes it's own issue. The further away you put them, the less likely people will be to trek out to use them. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:08:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f5edbdeb-4796-4f35-b7da-7a35ba2422c3 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T04:08:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#85fbeb71-4875-4ed1-8f3a-b919ddf17cc9 I agree that we should all take our garbage away with us and be aware of where that garbage will end up too. On the other hand, the environmental impact of 40,000 people hauling trash across the country using more gas only to put the garbage out for the local truck to pick up and take to the landfill seems a little odd. Maybe we should all still be responsible for our trash but a few landfills could be open for the few days after the burn to save hauling it long distance. Phil Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:15:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#85fbeb71-4875-4ed1-8f3a-b919ddf17cc9 Phil 2007-09-06T04:15:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5bcd8ac7-00d2-4b9a-85de-8ff18283f1af I'm very impressed that Chromy read the stipulations! Bravo. It would do a lot of the people on these boards good to spend some time reading them too if you want to see how Burning Man actually happens each year. The solution to this particular problem is coming to this: Charge $4 for ice, $1 of which goes to the dumpsters, BM needs over 300 of the large 40 yards dumpsters to handle over 250 TONS of our personal trash. That's a lot of dumpsters riding up and down Hwy 447. It's coming like it or not. Is this a bad thing? You tell me; does "LNT" mean ONLY the individual participants or does it also include the entire community and the event as a whole? I'd be interested to see what you guys think about this. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:08:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5bcd8ac7-00d2-4b9a-85de-8ff18283f1af Cameron 2007-09-06T03:08:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4033087d-30d4-4bd5-a3a8-5992555b6f6c How horrible! It amazes me that people can leave their trash everywhere. It makes me sad day to day in the default world. It makes me even more mad when "burners" leave it in the surrounding areas for the rest of the community to deal with. As a responsible Burner, and yes,.. there are lots of us... I'm sorry for the way your area was left. Although I wasnt there this year, I always pack it in AND pack it all the way out... HOME. Leave no trace doesnt only apply to the playa. Many of us try to bring the "Burn" home to the default world,... including the LNT mentality. This planet is not our trash can. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:03:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4033087d-30d4-4bd5-a3a8-5992555b6f6c Lavendergrrrl 2007-09-06T03:03:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f0ecc10b-60be-4209-b079-cd52f15f128f yay bobzilla! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:59:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f0ecc10b-60be-4209-b079-cd52f15f128f orlando! 2007-09-06T02:59:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ec4d094a-3456-4da4-94bf-c44b19e1ed19 Lotta people vacation in Cali from elsewhere...I'm just sayin... Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:56:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ec4d094a-3456-4da4-94bf-c44b19e1ed19 orlando! 2007-09-06T02:56:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#de186111-d39f-44a9-b394-52823027cf14 I'm convinced thousands come never having read a thing about it - except maybe an article soemwhere-- certainly nothte principles or survival guide..we were asked "how much do I owe you? " at our bar.... hundreds of totally clueless newbies............. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:54:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#de186111-d39f-44a9-b394-52823027cf14 orlando! 2007-09-06T02:54:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#1accccc8-f29a-4325-8c7a-ac66d8dba862 There was talk this year in camp of having some sort of volunteer commintment requirement next year...you either must be working on a theme camp mooping for 12 hours etc etc etc... Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:48:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#1accccc8-f29a-4325-8c7a-ac66d8dba862 orlando! 2007-09-06T02:48:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2f469159-6edc-41d4-ae6c-a99c567d382a Just as a point of reference - people in rural communities have to pay up to 25 a month for ONE can to be hauled.... Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:41:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2f469159-6edc-41d4-ae6c-a99c567d382a orlando! 2007-09-06T02:41:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86924e35-0c42-49a6-b6af-17b0c5cdc76e We had FIVE bikes stolen this year. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:31:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86924e35-0c42-49a6-b6af-17b0c5cdc76e orlando! 2007-09-06T02:31:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d7525741-5274-4281-b0fd-3b4b70c46233 Grace - I am trully sorry. I think this year it finally became clear to me that the event has busted at the seems. As a core culture we do have values that SHOULD mean this doesn't happen. Sadly, we at the core have not succeeded in convicing the rapidly expanding periphery of people of these basic values...a primary one of which is the "leave no trace" concept. It's time I think for us burners to accept the fact that we have failed in this, that the org has failed...that the event is too large to be able to inculcate in the large numbers that are now drawn there.... I am sad to accept this - but I think it is reality. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:29:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d7525741-5274-4281-b0fd-3b4b70c46233 orlando! 2007-09-06T02:29:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f7ac9c3d-fa22-4f7c-aae2-af6b6e66ab9e Chromy, thanks for the link. that's a very interesting read and helps explain some rules that seemed a bit arbitary before. :) For those looking for the section he quoted it's on page 6 under "Solid Waste Management" The permit also states: ---------------------------------------- CAMPING AND RECREATION USES (p.5) BRC shall inform staff and participants of the backcountry use ethics as reflected in the programs Tread Lightly! and Leave No Trace tailoring the concepts to fit a large city and encourage individual responsibility and accountability. BRC shall assure Tread Lightly! and Leave No Trace information is disseminated to personnel and participants in handouts, through Internet home page/website resources and other communication venues as available. ---------------------------------------- While those could be contradictory, I would understand it to mean that during the event the "Tread Lightly! and Leave No Trace" rule is in effect. After the event the BRC is responsible for removing any remaining waste and providing their own dumpsters to do so. Otherwise it would imply that BM should have been charged fines during 2006 and 2007 (the permit is dated 2006-2010) for not having dumpsters during the event. But I may be misunderstanding it. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:11:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f7ac9c3d-fa22-4f7c-aae2-af6b6e66ab9e Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T02:11:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b9ea4673-c956-4ed3-86a7-1748ff196aca From the BLM Permit Stipulations here: http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/NEPA/burningman/4_Burning_Man_EA_Appendices.pdf BRC is responsible for all trash removal and cleanup. Trash will be transported to an appropriate landfill and deposited accordingly. Specifically BRC will: a. Provide dumpsters of a size and number sufficient to accommodate the event. b. Dumpsters will be hauled when full to ensure proper disposal and timely rotation of full versus empty containers. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:41:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b9ea4673-c956-4ed3-86a7-1748ff196aca Chromatest 2007-09-06T01:41:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e041b86c-216c-40a6-b64b-1f097dbca54b A row of dumpsters at Landfill and 6 would be a huge disappointment for me. I'm almost ready to say get rid of the JOTS service. Composting toilets are not too expensive these days, and the kitty litter in a 5 gallon bucket worked for a number of years, but the city is just too big and diverse for the port o lets to go away. And you can interpret 'diverse' as part of the population who is only there for the part-ay and not the communit-ay. It becomes a larger group of people each year and sooner or later a critical mass of the careless will determine the outcome. I'm fearful that BLM will require BMORG to provide a recycling/ dumpster service due to the 50,000+ that will be expected in 2008. I hope it does not happen. It saddens me that I have to lead by example due to someones carelessness. How did I become a leader so quickly?? Lead your own self dammit. I'm no good at it. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:40:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e041b86c-216c-40a6-b64b-1f097dbca54b TomCat 2007-09-06T01:40:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6a9f65f0-6104-444a-bcb1-843c3ff9b677 Just be quiet and enjoy the money brought into your community by our event. Thank you, -- The LLC Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:36:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6a9f65f0-6104-444a-bcb1-843c3ff9b677 Rob 2007-09-06T01:36:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c649012f-2733-4143-b977-a7d1ae90629f "If you buy a Laté at Center Camp, whose trash is the empty cup? " it's yours. YOU are using the cup. YOU are responsible for it's disposal. once you accept the cup you accept responsibility for it. You are paying for the beverage, not the absence of responsibility. if you accept gifts from someone it is YOUR responsibility to dispose of them. not the giver. if you accept alcohol or food from a camp it is YOUR responsibily to dispose of it. not the camp. Center Camp isn't your mom serving you and cleaning up after you. And btw, you can bring your OWN cup to center camp instead of using a paper disposable cup. Some members fought pretty hard to get that passed by the health department. It's pretty standard practice to have a cup with you anyway so you can collect gifts of drink or food at camps. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:20:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c649012f-2733-4143-b977-a7d1ae90629f Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T01:20:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6ac5c1d9-5683-4aa0-a5cc-3c7830621085 "If the average person (at least half of BM attendees) can't be trusted to even pack their trash and not dump it down the side of the road, how do you expect them to practice the ultimate in environmental & health-conscious methods of garbage dehydration." sayr, That's exactly the point. Frankly, burning man is NOT for the average person, nor is it meant to be. There's a reason the word "radical" appears so many times in the basic burning man guidelines. There's a reason the back of your ticket warns you about death. Inclusion does not mean "welcome all ignorant jackasses". I does not mean you're excused from any responsibility. If a person can't be trusted to take care of something as basic as their own garbage then they have no business attending. It's not rocket science. I'm not talking about composting. I'm talking about sorting and crushing. "Hmm, this is wet, it goes in a bucket. Gee, this is a can. I crush cans." Most people are capable of putting things in buckets and stomping on things to make them flat. We learned to do that with Fisher Price toys when we were 3. And most people are capable of running a rope or bungee cord on top of their car. You don't need to know how to tie sailor knots to use a fricking bungee cord. LNT is and has been one of the fundamental principles of bman. We all learn "pick up after yourself" by the time we're 5. As I said, it's not rocket science. If someone is so mentally challenged that they can't handle that, do you really want to be catering to them? Why not just abandon all the principles and make it easy for dumbest/lowest common demoninator? Why not get rid of "ask before touching" since that confuses drunk people. Why not get rid of "self-reliance" since that just puts too much of a burden on lazy people? Why not just excuse everyone from everything? I have to agree with daniel's earlier post: "I also feel it's a lot to ask all of us to bring our own water. I mean, what if we forget, or just dont feel like it? We might DIE. So BMORG should definitely install waterfountains" People continually complain about all the Yahoos, yet there are numerous posts here excusing their kind of behavior. Most of what I'm hearing here is "oh, it's too hard" or "oh, it's too inconvenient". If you want easy and convenient go to a stadium show. Sorry, but I just don't buy "they're too dumb or lazy" as an excuse to trash not only the playa, but neighboring towns. God forbid we actually expect people to have some decency and respect. So people want all the freedom of burning man and don't want any of the responsibility? Then they should stick to something more their speed. Like mardi gras and beach parties and concerts and disney land. "It's just one of those missing pieces that party promoters always forget and leave out." I think the fact that you address bman as "party promoters" is part of the disagreement here. Last I checked it wasn't a party it was a city, a community, a social experiment, a creative playground... that happens to have a party atmosphere because it's celebrating all those things. If I want a party I'll stay home. I don't need to spend thousands of dollars, drive for 2 days, and spend a week in dust storms for a party. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:09:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6ac5c1d9-5683-4aa0-a5cc-3c7830621085 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-06T01:09:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e0e15659-101c-4003-8143-37c5fd159f64 Which brings up the question: If you buy a Laté at Center Camp, whose trash is the empty cup? If you are truly self-reliant, would you bring it back to your camp and put it in with your paper recyclables? ... or is it that since you're purchasing a laté and drinking it at Center Camp, you get to use their trash can (it's their trash) ... or is that equally unconscious since they are having to haul away your trash? If a $300+ ticket is good enough for the BMorg to set aside the budget to hire a trash service with plenty of empty dumpsters at the BM exit, then due to the trash problems for 100 Miles around BM... they owe that service to the people in surrounding communities (like Grace-Indeed) more than they own the attendees. If the $300+ ticket is NOT enough, then they should raise next year's price $5 a head (an additional ±$200,000) to provide that service. If people still want to be überconscious, they can truck their trash back home, but at least the provision will be there to insure the surrounding communities that they won't be littered upon year after year as the amount of newbies increases. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:51:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e0e15659-101c-4003-8143-37c5fd159f64 sayr 2007-09-06T00:51:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#083f5d21-b113-465f-b894-91588c12f5ef Ms Dynomite, If the average person (at least half of BM attendees) can't be trusted to even pack their trash and not dump it down the side of the road, how do you expect them to practice the ultimate in environmental & health-conscious methods of garbage dehydration... it's almost laughable really. I mean, sure the people who are here discussing this already know how to do that... but it's not them who's littering now is it? It's those average (irresponsible & unconscious) people who leave the mess and no amount of eco-safe preaching is going to eliminate that problem. That is the exact reason why Burning Man has to have the regulations and resources it has adapted... do you think people who bring their own french press & coffee are going to Center Camp every morning and paying $3 for a Laté? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:41:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#083f5d21-b113-465f-b894-91588c12f5ef sayr 2007-09-06T00:41:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dccede93-cdbb-49c1-bcd4-a32cf49e5209 Aly, one could say the same thing about the Porta-Potty thing, but they've decided to do lots of those and people piss & crap A LOT LESS on the playa now. It creates other problems, like moop in the pooper, but it's still worth the investment and risk. >> Having dumpsters there will just absolve many people of the responsibilty of packing it out. If "packing it out" means carrying salmonella, E.Coli and botulism infested trash in your car trunk, van floor, or worse in with your clothes and luggage (which won't ALL be cleansed that well), then the alternative seems obviously better. If you want to talk about really getting prepared and self-reliant, people can devise safe ways to transport their refuse with them while they're travelling - a skill people have needed (in the past) and may well need in the future - but who can expect everyone to take that initiative and do the learning & work to prepare that way. Otherwise, people are carrying their rotten trash with them or strapping it to their roof... neither of which is ideal and totally safe. It's just one of those missing pieces that party promoters always forget and leave out. It's just that BMorg are just party promoters with a bit more organization and a LOT more responsibility. They can do waste management in that way and they should. It's just ridiculous not to. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:33:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#dccede93-cdbb-49c1-bcd4-a32cf49e5209 sayr 2007-09-06T00:33:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aee3bb34-9c04-459e-8ed5-044b655f5ab2 >> a little deffensive about an observation that CA roads are covered in trash? I love how you're calling it an observation. Since you have decided to believe something, it's automatically an observation. You are an authority on CA roads and you've been ALL over CA and all of CA's roads are trashy waste dumps. The reason people are saying you're acting like a biggot is because you are. >> Cry me a freakin river Nice projection. When you're the one who's whining about CA roads, I love how you flip it around and say we're all the whiners when we're just holding your words up to you and showing you a mirror. Looks like the defensive one isn't me. My intention here is to promote accountability and not support ignorant arrogance. Keep your tissues for yourself. I don't need 'em. And another thing... why don't we talk about how Nevada refuses (no pun) to RECYCLE?! Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:23:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aee3bb34-9c04-459e-8ed5-044b655f5ab2 sayr 2007-09-06T00:23:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fd408c41-e530-41be-b98f-908eb389ce3e a little deffensive about an observation that CA roads are covered in trash? It disgusted me when I used to live there too. Shesh time to unbunch the panties? Now I called everyperson in CA a freak and a lowlife? I guess I don't have to say a thing when you keep putting so many words in my mouth. Cry me a freakin river Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:08:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#fd408c41-e530-41be-b98f-908eb389ce3e Snowlover 2007-09-06T00:08:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#012460f6-125c-454c-86eb-be5cbe6939a8 I enjoy this idea a lot. I can also see giving people a ticket that you must pay with labor and sweat picking up trash, just so those jerks can see how much it SUCKS ASS to clean up after a bunch of other jerks. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:16:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#012460f6-125c-454c-86eb-be5cbe6939a8 Naomi 2007-09-05T23:16:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#906f548a-369f-4b0a-86f5-deb81c47b142 I totally agree. It isn't being mean though. It's a reality. if you can't deal with your trash, stay the hell away. Sorry but thats the truth. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:14:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#906f548a-369f-4b0a-86f5-deb81c47b142 Naomi 2007-09-05T23:14:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3a6eb948-4b6e-4a13-abd2-a23af5bab805 The imaginary dumpsters in gerlach or wadsworth should be reserved for those who are flying out or are driving super long distances, say 500 miles of more. Anyone inside of a 500 mile radius will still have to haul their trash back to their home and dispose of it there. We did. It was a few bags and 20 h2o jugs and some slimy wet stuff we put in our cooler since everything in there was spoiled and we had to wash it out anyway. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:02:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3a6eb948-4b6e-4a13-abd2-a23af5bab805 TomCat 2007-09-05T22:02:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d6e2ba9b-18aa-476a-a4cf-c4be859bdcec 1. He was a day to day employee, no insurance. Does workers comp or whatnot cover it? Maybe, maybe not. I felt it was the right thing to do so I did it. 2. Just for emergencies. He came by the station (BMIR) and I work there as well as camp there, so it was in my briefcase (I know, you carry your briefcase on the playa?). I'm a worker bee, BMIR Station Manager. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:33:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d6e2ba9b-18aa-476a-a4cf-c4be859bdcec Bobzilla 2007-09-05T21:33:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#77e6af9c-cf8f-417d-ae28-8aa78f211366 Bobzilla: " wrote him a check for $300 out of my pocket to help pay the cost of replacing his teeth. Another citizen kicked in $40." 1) that was really very generous of you. I would imagine insurance would cover such things, however if he was part time it's possible he did not have insurance, so it's outstanding that you gave him some money. I hope that bm publishes news of this accident so others can see the effects of their carelessness. 2) you carried your checkbook on the playa? ;P Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:53:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#77e6af9c-cf8f-417d-ae28-8aa78f211366 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T20:53:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#13c10bde-ca82-4f3f-aa7c-2be54941acc5 "After sitting for days in the seething desert heat, do you have any idea how much bacteria is promulgating in those bags of trash? " Which is why you separate food waste from other garbage. and why you dry it out in mesh bags before you throw it out. :) if you can't dry it out beforehand you can put it in one of those sealable white buckets with some cat litter to absorb both the liquid and the odor. if you're concerned about spillage you can even duct tape it shut. then get home and just throw the whole bucket away. Personal waste like tampons and condoms can be stored in any number of small containers with lids and handled the same way. Neihther of these things is extremist nor do they compromise one's health. I can't see any reason to have any garbage leaking, festering, or whatever unless there has been some kind of emergency that prevents you from doing the above. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:48:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#13c10bde-ca82-4f3f-aa7c-2be54941acc5 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T20:48:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bb8e3de6-10dc-40b9-98d8-f8259b22ffd6 blackfly, those are some interesting ideas. :) though I would imagine that hiring a trash service for that many people would be quite expensive, which would significantly increase the cost of the tickets. people seem to complain already about the ticket prices, so I don't know how well that would go over. then again, maybe it would be seen as a justified stupid tax. ;) The bag limit per camp is intriguing. I'm wondering how that could be regulated. I am surprised that more towns don't do a pay-per-bag dumpster. not to assume responsibility for the problem, but to make money off the event. Though I still feel like we have to find a line between instilling responsibility and picking up inevitable slack. The more you take care of people the less likely they'll bother to take care of themselves. Every year we hear about how bad the potties and trash are and how this puts the event at risk. You know what? if there was no bm next year because of those problems I bet people would take it seriously. It's like having to ground children, it seems ridiculous at times. I also feel that part of the problem results from overextending oneself and exhaustion. If people were to plan their trip better (leave earlier so they aren't rushed to get to their job, leave later so they have adequate time to pack up) then they might be in a better position to deal with their trash. They might have more mental and physical resources to properly compact their bags, pack them and tie them down. I think in some cases people are so overtired they get to the "fuck it, it's good enough" point and that carelessness causes other issues. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:37:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bb8e3de6-10dc-40b9-98d8-f8259b22ffd6 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T20:37:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ea1910e5-5ccf-4477-a1c2-9efb86485512 "A lot of people come by airplane. It's kinda hard checking extra bags of trash on the plane. " there are public city dumps for that purpose. :) when I went to bm from nyc I flew into reno and rented a car. obviously I couldn't take several bags of trash on the plane (airline rules against it). so before I returned the rental car I went to the city dump and disposed of my bags. it was really easy and seemed a much better solution than dropping them off at a small town. that was several years ago so I don't remember the details, but it shouldn't be hard to find the info online. hopefully that helps. :) Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:22:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ea1910e5-5ccf-4477-a1c2-9efb86485512 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T20:22:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ad365538-2797-4546-942e-8487669792f8 "Yes, I've been many times! I even worked and lived there in Gerlach! I will contact my local law enforcement what a great idea. Let's take it out of the "community" and take to the government. " or you could just continue to be irate at the people here who apologize and are actually on your side if that makes you feel better. you complained that there weren't tickets for improper trash disposal. you stated there should be more police. (go back and read your own posts). I was merely explaining to you that bm cannot issue littering tickets or fines because they aren't a law enforcement agency. if you feel your local leo aren't taking the trash issue seriously or aren't punishing it, then they are the people to address. it's just common sense: burning man is an LLC, not an law enforcement agency. but continue to to be unproductive and argumentative if you feel that is accomplishing your goal. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:17:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ad365538-2797-4546-942e-8487669792f8 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T20:17:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#65464309-65ae-4539-aaf7-d5bbe599594a >>If you don't like my state then please don't come here!!! I HAVE to come to NV. Where else will I dump my trash? CA is full, dude. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:54:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#65464309-65ae-4539-aaf7-d5bbe599594a $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T19:54:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#040f729d-36ae-4442-834c-737c5f9c90e5 Yeah, but human nature being what it is, you'll get eveybody just dropping off all their trash somewhere around the dumpsters on their way out - only to have it swill around the Playa (and for miles around as Gracie pointed out in her original post). Having dumpsters there will just absolve many people of the responsibilty of packing it out. Soon, it will turn into a total cluster$uck, like Glastonbury is these days. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:52:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#040f729d-36ae-4442-834c-737c5f9c90e5 Speedingpullet 2007-09-05T19:52:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#53f26661-2004-442b-93b3-f5a898156a63 Grace, I hope you don't take my other post wrong. I am very sympathetic to the trash problem and it makes me mad as well. However, there is a reason why bm.org doesn't provide for trash disposal. It seems that would only encourage the slobs to be less responsible while the true Burners like yourself and me still have to care about it. Pack it In, pack it Out. If these people can't figure that out, and deal with their own crap, it isn't up to the organization to babysit. I don't know what the solution is, but it isn't having a snark fest online. Burners are a powerful group of people, who can accomplish amazing feats. So why can't we come up with a reasonable solution? Like Guardian Angels of the Roadways or something. I would be willing to stand on the side a stretch of road and guard it from litter for a day, or go and help pick up those accidental blowoffs that inevitably seem to happen. I am sure there are other people out there who have reasonable solutions kicking around in the backs of their heads, so lets hear some of those instead of bashing! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:49:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#53f26661-2004-442b-93b3-f5a898156a63 Naomi 2007-09-05T19:49:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d0ec34bb-53db-4c15-b7fc-ace81685b1e4 "There has to be some kind of happy medium between tossing your trash bags into or next to a dumpster in Gerlach/Empire and hauling it 1000 miles home... " exactly....you would think with 40,000 people paying 300 bucks a ticket they'd be able to put some fuckin dumpsters out there Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:38:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d0ec34bb-53db-4c15-b7fc-ace81685b1e4 darin 2007-09-05T19:38:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0049c89a-0ab8-4efc-b79b-15a2e1e6403b I actually saw the point of the post perfectly well thank you. Notice I didn't get off the topic, the person I responded to did by bashing ravers. What I EXTRACTed from his rant was that he believes the Ravers are still high and messed up as they travel down the roads, freely throwing trash over their shoulders. He decided to blame a core group of people for the trash. It isn't about a collective of people dumping garbage all over, it's about those few inconsiderate individuals who give the rest of us bad names. I don't appreciate that. Really if anyone is going to point fingers, they need to make sure they are filled with moop first! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:30:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0049c89a-0ab8-4efc-b79b-15a2e1e6403b Naomi 2007-09-05T19:30:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3077d8f4-3282-45b5-aed9-fe4d2e3d80e8 Grace, I'm sorry. Pay as You Dump does seem to be a reasonable response to the trash-everywhere scenario that I witnessed as well. I had always hoped that the financial benefits to the Gerlach/Empire/Nixon/Wadsworth communities would outweigh the damage, and I'm still not entirely convinced that that isn't the case -- but then again, I don't live there. It's undoubtedly true that we have a lot to learn. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:14:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3077d8f4-3282-45b5-aed9-fe4d2e3d80e8 Nitro 2007-09-05T19:14:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#07b9c609-6366-40e1-81c0-0fc0312d60b0 There has to be some kind of happy medium between tossing your trash bags into or next to a dumpster in Gerlach/Empire and hauling it 1000 miles home... After sitting for days in the seething desert heat, do you have any idea how much bacteria is promulgating in those bags of trash? On top of a vehicle is one thing, (as risky as it may be for it to fall off) but to put it in your trunk or in a van or RV, you are putting yourself, whoever else and your vehicle's future sanitation in a potentially harmful position, depending on what is festering in your garbage bags. If they're somehow sealed, then great, but I'm just playing devil's advocate since many times, people's extremist approaches to environmentalism and fairness ends up being 1 step forward and 3 steps back. That happy medium might be (as others have suggested) a few licensed individuals or companies charging per bag on the way out from BM and they are licensed to properly dispose of all of the waste they collect. If BRC is to be taken seriously as any kind of "city" they should incorporate waste disposal in with their utilities instead of relying on the concept of radical self-reliance to accomplish a clean wake left behind them... that approach is obviously failing miserably. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:05:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#07b9c609-6366-40e1-81c0-0fc0312d60b0 sayr 2007-09-05T19:05:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f961c783-4687-4e87-b363-6cb985a316e8 <If anyone knows a tall dark haired woman in a red pickup with Washington plates.... I'd like to know her name so I can publicly shame her! > She won't respond to shame. She doesn't give a damn. You mean you didn't write down the license number and/or get a photo? There are litter laws in Nevada. Nevada could still send her a ticket in Washington, and she'd still have to pay it, and it would still go on her record if she didn't. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:59:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f961c783-4687-4e87-b363-6cb985a316e8 David 2007-09-05T18:59:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#03032646-ac91-49d2-95da-941757826b74 <Maybe the BMORG needs to suck it up and provide some dumpsters for those who are too over loaded and/or lazy. I know it sounds like baby sitting, but sometimes pragmatism should rule. > This is the problem with BMan becoming too big. In the early days people picked up their trash for the most part. Now, it's no longer a participant event but a spectator event. This should be a lesson to all those people who feel that bigger means better. Bigger is not more cost-efficient; it's not more socially responsible; it's not better. I agree with Larry that the small events should eventually replace the big event. According to the original poster here, the trash is all over. It's too late to round it up. All we can think about is the future. In the future, I feel that a hidden passcode should be written into the BMan manual so that everyone has to read it first before being able to buy tickets. Maybe then they will learn something about the event. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:56:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#03032646-ac91-49d2-95da-941757826b74 David 2007-09-05T18:56:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0d9324e1-a088-41c8-b06e-8b86bbdcb7f5 I know.. that happens ALL the time these days. But still, it posted like 15 times. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:50:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0d9324e1-a088-41c8-b06e-8b86bbdcb7f5 sayr 2007-09-05T18:50:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#26a84d31-4538-4e78-a7cb-3a2b736c43a2 From someone who drove their trash and their recycling all the way home to Seattle, because there was not a proper place to deal with it, you have my greatest apologies! there are times I love this community with all my heart and others I am disgusted by them, I suppose that is part of the ethos of burningman. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:48:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#26a84d31-4538-4e78-a7cb-3a2b736c43a2 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T18:48:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3457dc8d-bc65-4a9d-a2bc-5822dc157a6d That's a great idea Crypto!! Maybe since DPW is out there already looking for donations, they could do a check of cargo to make sure it's tied down. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:45:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3457dc8d-bc65-4a9d-a2bc-5822dc157a6d $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T18:45:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c144279d-2eda-4526-9755-257e5903f87c Snowlover, Would you can it (no pun intended) about "Californians"?!? You sound like some biggoted redneck bitching about all of the freaks and low-lifes out in Caleeforn-I-Ayy.. California is a pretty large state and the difference from one town to the next can be like night and day. It's not like as soon as you cross the border into CA you're on a slallom course, dodging trash on the roads. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:27:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c144279d-2eda-4526-9755-257e5903f87c sayr 2007-09-05T18:27:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01d716ad-31e5-4404-94e1-e5f618772c0a Tribe was having a lot of problems yesterday- after hitting "submit", it would go to the "an error has occurred" page. Just FYI, that's why there are so many duplicate posts. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:18:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01d716ad-31e5-4404-94e1-e5f618772c0a Brody 2007-09-05T18:18:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#56a7e170-97bf-466b-9276-19560832871f Smiley, a day laborer was injured while pumping the porta potties. A beer bottle was sucked up and the hose exploded knocking him off his feet. He lost his false teeth. I was so embarased that this happened to him, even though I didn't put anything in the pp that didn't belong there, that I wrote him a check for $300 out of my pocket to help pay the cost of replacing his teeth. Another citizen kicked in $40. He had come by BMIR and we did an interview with him on the air. We talked often on the air about not dumping trash along the highway and encouraged people to stop and pick up trash if they saw it fall off the car ahead of them. The bottom line is that it's disgraceful. The amount of trash strewn along the roads of communities as far as Truckee from the event. We need to do a better job. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:17:40 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#56a7e170-97bf-466b-9276-19560832871f Bobzilla 2007-09-05T18:17:40Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01150fb2-a3eb-4a88-9075-0c85c987cab6 Ted, maybe you should pipe down a little bit? If you made the mistake "one year" of improperly securing your trash and having it fall off of your car, you should have a bit more understanding for other people who made the same mistake you did. It was due to luck, not intention that yours fell off right when you pulled out onto the highway and not when you were going 75MPH down the freeway. If you had tied your trash down just a little bit better than you did, that's what would have happened, no? Then you would have created a compound hazard for yourself and everyone around you. In that case, there would have been garbage strewn about on the freeway and no chance of you cleaning up your mess. It's a "one-finger pointing is three pointing back at you" kind of thing and your only excuse for your point of view is that you've learned from your own mistake. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:16:35 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01150fb2-a3eb-4a88-9075-0c85c987cab6 sayr 2007-09-05T18:16:35Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ffdbd3f5-7442-4652-917c-54004c197c2e How many times are you going to post the same reply? Trust that when you hit the "SUBMIT" button... it works fine. :) Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:06:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ffdbd3f5-7442-4652-917c-54004c197c2e sayr 2007-09-05T18:06:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8f149e81-4849-4a7f-8720-d82ba7f81d28 I say, operate a garbage collection facility near Gerlach, just like a temporary shit processing facility is set up out here now. Charge $10-per-bag, proceeds to http://blackrockdesert.org. Marry this with a huge public awareness campaign, and double-- no, triple-- the littering fines, along with some showy enforcement. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:01:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8f149e81-4849-4a7f-8720-d82ba7f81d28 Metric 2007-09-05T18:01:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aaa00afa-7830-450d-b4a8-5b7214c4484f All she was doing (from what I can see) is doing her part to put an end to the string of anti-"raver" scapegoating comments. Sure her post wasn't sticking dogmatically to the issue of waste management in surrounding towns, but her point is valid and relevant as a headcheck to those who would hold a specific group responsible for the problem. My $.02: The problem of overflowing dumpsters and trash cans is secondary to the problem of loose litter along roads and freeway ramps. The dumpsters and trash cans are where trash goes. Then the waste management company can be called to make an early trip to the dump for an added cost to the company whose dumpster is overflowing. If that is a gas station, supermarket or other business, then the cost of a special waste collection call is FAR outweighed by the incredible revenue those businesses are making off of the people going home from BM who spend money on water, food, supplies etc... It angers me to hear about the droves of loose litter though... BM attendees need to each wake the F*$#K up and start practicing what they preach, because at this point there is nothing eco-friendly about the festival itself. That I will argue to the end because it's just plain obvious to anyone who's paying attention to the rampant consumption (disguised as rebellion to consumer culture) that takes place before, during and after the event. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:57:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#aaa00afa-7830-450d-b4a8-5b7214c4484f sayr 2007-09-05T17:57:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#df54e941-3bc5-4002-b67b-64c8b2cf8d6e I was saying I have observed a buttload of trash littering the roads in CA, not that all californians are throwing out trash. I guess it must be the people from oregon littering up your roads, then? That makes me a racist and sexist?? Gez what a buch of whiners, shut up and pick up the sides of the roads they REALLY look like crap. If you don't like my state then please don't come here!!! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:30:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#df54e941-3bc5-4002-b67b-64c8b2cf8d6e Snowlover 2007-09-05T17:30:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d39f872a-d915-4a48-b387-421333d3ae82 Naomi - I think you missed the point of this discussion and extracted a bit of a rant and added to that rant. The point of this discussion is not how many butts and bottles you picked up on the playa, it's about the surrounding area of a few hundred of miles. There is trash along the highways, private dumpsters, parking lots, and open space land. I think you should think before your respond and stay on topic. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:38:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d39f872a-d915-4a48-b387-421333d3ae82 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T16:38:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e00a03e3-2638-4939-8684-9bbd2e18c7d7 As a person who identifies with ravers I object to this sort of generalization. Yeah I picked up a lot of dead glow stick bracelets. I also picked up tons of empty beer cans, toilet paper, butts from smokes, food packaging, beer cups, etc. So HOW exactly can you tell these things came from ravers? Was the Tp glowing after they wiped their asses with it? Did they stamp their smoke butts with Plur? Was the beer can doing a hoppy lil dance? I certainly hope not. Most ravers also don't drink a lot of alcohol, given that booze brings down your groove. Funny thing is, ravers don't leave a visible signature on their moop. Please don't blame a group of people in general, it isn't fair to those of us who ARE conscientious and spend HOURS EVERY DAY cleaning up YOUR trash. I picked up more trash than you know, and I think other folks are the same way. If I see a piece of trash typically I pick it up, even if I have to run it down over a quarter of a mile. Don't be an ass to me and mine just because you are feeling sanctimonious about how much you contribute. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:27:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e00a03e3-2638-4939-8684-9bbd2e18c7d7 Naomi 2007-09-05T16:27:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4d8ab5b9-5cf6-4140-a497-380b28743845 I’d like to say it is people that come just for the party… the Thursday people.. Although I have some friends that do this and are from Reno (met them last year). They helped me clean up our camp. I hate to think people would throw there trash into the road… but there was just too much to say oops that bag was not tied down. As for our trash in our camp… it is still in our Thule (the long things that go on top of your trucks). I am sort of afraid to open it, lol Again I am sorry for the selfish ones that do such a thing... I was angry at it too... and we left on Sunday… Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:54:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4d8ab5b9-5cf6-4140-a497-380b28743845 Tequila 2007-09-05T15:54:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#58f4d271-7a5f-4b66-9bd4-993653a05ace thanks for reminding me why I leave earlier every year... no exit wait and I don't see all the trash. This of course doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Maybe we need to consider something like the opposite of Greeter Station that checks people's loads as they leave. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:51:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#58f4d271-7a5f-4b66-9bd4-993653a05ace flackmaster 2007-09-05T15:51:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2684a013-b75b-4428-91e1-461eb2489339 "Now theres one hell of a generalization" from a dude that lives in a nuclear waste dump no less Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:47:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#2684a013-b75b-4428-91e1-461eb2489339 darin 2007-09-05T15:47:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#edd41de2-f765-43cd-90de-243fe1afc91a "ATTENTION CALIFORNIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We do not throw our trash along our highways in Nevada, we use trash cans. I have been to CA and seen the sides of the roads, they look worse than a dump. If you can't get people to not throw trash at least put your prisoners to work cleaning up." Now theres one hell of a generalization. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:45:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#edd41de2-f765-43cd-90de-243fe1afc91a Samsa 2007-09-05T15:45:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3b91767f-6c73-4d88-86a1-66764e98193b >too bad no one thought of getting her license plate I.D Yeah, she was moving pretty fast, and we were so shocked that she'd be doing that, we were too busy going "No the fuck WAY, she did NOT just do that!!!" Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:39:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3b91767f-6c73-4d88-86a1-66764e98193b Brody 2007-09-05T15:39:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3ddcd634-e0bf-4705-878b-62c3439a9751 Thanks for the stories, even the smart remarks, but what can be done as the population of BRC grows? Leave no trace includes not only the playa but also what you take back to home with you. Ideas for solutions seem to point to Pay as you Dump stations near the event site. Then again, with projects like kill the earth blowing holes into the ozone layer. I guess the communities along the highways, blm land, and the indian reservation should just turn a cheek and chalk it up to twats. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:49:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3ddcd634-e0bf-4705-878b-62c3439a9751 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T14:49:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8b7976b8-9657-4cfb-b2e5-3821e1d08c4e >> ...and not even bother picking it up and putting it in your trunk FYI - It was in the bed her "truck" uncovered, not her "trunk". Dang, too bad no one thought of getting her license plate I.D. -- Doh! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:37:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8b7976b8-9657-4cfb-b2e5-3821e1d08c4e Dave Masucci 2007-09-05T06:37:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5934556f-8619-4560-aff5-84b084b8845e I cun't hear you. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:31:24 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5934556f-8619-4560-aff5-84b084b8845e >>J*A*5*|*N<< 2007-09-05T06:31:24Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#528d9acc-3820-4840-bc51-75528f1d23d6 I was referring to those in Sac, or the far reaches of the bay area. The stuff should be placed in your trash cans at home, or not even taken out there int he first place. Remove all single use packaging before the goods are even brought to the playa. 2.5 gallon water jugs make good moop containers. If you are filling up those ctrs and still need additional garbage bags, then maybe you should consider the 'before' equation of the stuff you bring out there. Big theme camp operators are generally taking care of their trash and everyone who ventures into their camps- that's 50,000 cigarette butts, gatorade bottles and keystone light cans. They can deal with it. Why can't old hippies and their raver offspring do the same? Since when do they embrace and expect the paternalistic blanket of someone else doing something for them? Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:28:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#528d9acc-3820-4840-bc51-75528f1d23d6 TomCat 2007-09-05T06:28:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8d71a73e-750c-4350-af4d-0c7399fc8242 Seems like we have a lot of great ideas coming up. My apologies to Grace for the carelessness of a few. I traveled lightly, thus had only one trash bag which I took back to LA for disposal. As a first-timer this year, "getting it right" really mattered a lot to me. Given that the roadside trash issue is not new, it's sad to see it still a major issue. Short of checkpoints, or full-on escorts off the premises, not sure what else we can do besides more intensive education. I'm sure heavier enforcement/fines by the locals will get the point across too. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:23:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8d71a73e-750c-4350-af4d-0c7399fc8242 ~M1chael 2007-09-05T06:23:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#549e3c1b-ee20-4623-b09d-53953ab0cec4 Sorry for the doulbe post, I wanted to move this to the bottom of the thread. -------------------------------------- Here's an Idea. What if each ticket came with a coupon or tag which upon reciept would entitle each participant to drop 1 garbage bag in dumpsters provided by the BMORG. How this could be monitored and controlled, I'm not sure.......perhaps another opportunity for volunteering? But then again that would be close to 50,000 bags of garbage, YIKES! Or perhaps, each registered theme camp could be given a tag allowing for the dumping of 1 bag per each 10 members of said theme camp? How you could figure the number of members per camp I'm not sure. I dunno.....it just seems a shame to have this stream of trash follow the event. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:06:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#549e3c1b-ee20-4623-b09d-53953ab0cec4 blackfly 2007-09-05T06:06:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#374046c7-c2a4-4fcf-950d-b455d0f3b5c7 When I left the playa, I left nothing behind. (True, the port-a-pottie folks took care of some of it).... But, I had two large garbage bags full of stuff that I transported back to Portland, Oregon. There is no excuse for doing anything any differently. I am sorry that you have to deal with the fallout from less conscientious folk... Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:03:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#374046c7-c2a4-4fcf-950d-b455d0f3b5c7 BadAss 2007-09-05T06:03:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#52ff1d72-0d4c-40ef-9dfe-ffd178e77969 Twat did you say? Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:01:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#52ff1d72-0d4c-40ef-9dfe-ffd178e77969 ż€₪ż€₪ 2007-09-05T06:01:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4ed55139-6a89-4aeb-bbd7-60ccac2afbf3 100 - 150 miles puts the trash in my neighborhood. :-( Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:01:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4ed55139-6a89-4aeb-bbd7-60ccac2afbf3 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T06:01:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b32f49eb-ebf5-441b-b728-ec0d973af860 ask ranger porto playa what he lost. He dove in to retrieve his 'item'.... a very rangerly act indeed. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:59:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b32f49eb-ebf5-441b-b728-ec0d973af860 TomCat 2007-09-05T05:59:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b16dcd53-800d-4b9e-9757-e873d61362f5 Or perhaps, each registered theme camp could be given a tag allowing for the dumping of 1 bag per each 10 members of said theme camp? How you could figure the number of members per camp I'm not sure. I dunno.....it just seems a shame to have this stream of trash follow the event. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:59:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#b16dcd53-800d-4b9e-9757-e873d61362f5 blackfly 2007-09-05T05:59:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#04ca6766-d3c0-4772-bb88-0b4eee356893 "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should". this is one of my fave personal quotes. Too many times we take the easy way out, in this case, dumping trash at the fernley or gerlach trash cans instead of driving it back home. There are others who truly need to use these facilities, and those who are traveling from far off states or countries should be first on the list, not an oaklander or sac resident. Think beyond your own immediatism. This is one of the conflicts of the BM ethos, it's the ugly head of personal responsibility. take care of your own shit based on your abilities. If you are able to pack it out safely, what's another 100-150 miles? Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:57:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#04ca6766-d3c0-4772-bb88-0b4eee356893 TomCat 2007-09-05T05:57:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9664d98c-61a8-46ad-aab1-e48339777471 JOTS pumps shit. They don't haul trash. ALL true! Waste Management hauls trash! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:56:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9664d98c-61a8-46ad-aab1-e48339777471 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T05:56:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#333b378e-fb0a-48d9-b43c-f97c06bfc741 Something to read... http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007170.html Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:55:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#333b378e-fb0a-48d9-b43c-f97c06bfc741 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T05:55:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9f8c65f4-8fb8-4e88-ab9e-360ba7aefc82 Here's an Idea. What if each ticket came with a coupon or tag which upon reciept would entitle each participant to drop 1 garbage bag in dumpsters provided by the BMORG. How this could be monitored and controlled, I'm not sure.......perhaps another opportunity for volunteering? But then again that would be close to 50,000 bags of garbage, YIKES! Any other ideas? Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:55:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9f8c65f4-8fb8-4e88-ab9e-360ba7aefc82 blackfly 2007-09-05T05:55:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5cf88c73-192f-4f53-8819-90763635ebaa Not that I've been unable to haul my trash home... But Sierra Hot Springs puts out a dumpster for visiting burners to leave their trash. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:49:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5cf88c73-192f-4f53-8819-90763635ebaa $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T05:49:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#156c2696-6886-47b2-b603-ea6b91e54ddf A lot of people come by airplane. It's kinda hard checking extra bags of trash on the plane. Granted, I'm not advocating dumping trash in random or unwelcomed places. But bringing it home is not always an option, and that creates a problem that needs a solution. I'd much rather see some enterprising townfolk sell us dumpster space, instead of tye died t-shirts and cheap goggles and blinkies. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:43:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#156c2696-6886-47b2-b603-ea6b91e54ddf Dusty Nipples (Kim) 2007-09-05T05:43:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9af3c5f0-d774-4cb6-9caf-b76e4a2bb9c2 "It IS TRUE! It's known. Like you said, flag them down and pay their price. If the RV pumpers collect waste and get paid ...why shouldn't they have the same trash service. Pay as you dispose." JOTS pumps shit. They don't haul trash. and they don't want our trash in their shit/ Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:39:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9af3c5f0-d774-4cb6-9caf-b76e4a2bb9c2 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T05:39:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e082eeae-e48d-41c1-b3e8-7ee42b7dc538 *Cough* BMorg should consider railroad car size trash bins *cough* oh that's right, they'd rather have their arm broken than bend it. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:34:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e082eeae-e48d-41c1-b3e8-7ee42b7dc538 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T05:34:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9f50f6c1-e330-4c7f-9e92-c1b80be72dbe Yes, I've been many times! I even worked and lived there in Gerlach! I will contact my local law enforcement what a great idea. Let's take it out of the "community" and take to the government. WOW! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:30:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#9f50f6c1-e330-4c7f-9e92-c1b80be72dbe Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T05:30:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d741037a-326b-41ab-8f9d-10e2ebbf25f1 >>BMORG supports RV's being serviced at the event. Why not other garbage? >>Not true. BMORG hires the honey wagons to clean out the porta potties. If you want your RV pumped out you gotta flag down a truck and pay the guy. It's just between you and him and BMORG has nothing to do with it. It IS TRUE! It's known. Like you said, flag them down and pay their price. If the RV pumpers collect waste and get paid ...why shouldn't they have the same trash service. Pay as you dispose. On the BM website there are locations to drop recycling and disposal service stations. That's another stop. Maybe provide a map? I don't know the best answer but there has to be a solution. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:28:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d741037a-326b-41ab-8f9d-10e2ebbf25f1 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T05:28:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#94e13f09-8d00-4c6d-a924-5b4edc25f73a Well, to be fair, we did have two large bags of trash we didn't come in with. I camped with a theme camp on the Esplanade, and one of the agreements with the camp was that we all would haul out 2 large bags of trash in addition to our own. You would not believe how much stuff we would find littered around our stage, our public chill space, and our free bar every morning. People seemed to assume that since we were a theme camp we would take care of all their empty beer bottles, cups, cigarette butts and mislaid clothing. We had that on top of all of the empty liquor bottles-when people donated us liquor for our bar it was a sure bet they weren't coming back to collect the empties! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:22:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#94e13f09-8d00-4c6d-a924-5b4edc25f73a *Toni the 2007-09-05T05:22:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#21371521-97ed-4429-8bce-f877d733b569 Change comes from within. Why not join us? Join us! Join us! Actually, you have a very valid point. The rules are clearly stated. And everyone I've ever talked to when I first started researching the event educated about cleaning up trash, and proper use of the potties, etc. Somewhere along the way the attitude of entitlement is coming through more and more. You can't police everything, but maybe limiting the event size would help. With growth comes alot of the things we face in the default world.. rape, theft, violence.... you don't hear many stories, but they exist. I believe the positives outweigh the negatives. We all have to do our part, but I am not going to apologize for someone else's behaviour. (I didn't even go this year) Then again.. Where there is a need... Why not set up a temporary pay to dump site to make some extra cash and keep it off roads or to benefit an organization your community? I agree it's not your responsibility, and you shouldn't have to deal with other people's crap. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:27:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#21371521-97ed-4429-8bce-f877d733b569 Julie 2007-09-05T04:27:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8fd9bc18-7904-4ea4-8004-89535c44aeae "I'm pretty shocked that people still throw stuff other than paper in the porta potty." I am as well. particularly after all the signage. but really, I don't think people "still" do this. that would imply the same people doing it year after year. I think it's new people doing it for the first time, each year. I read that about 50% of the population is newbies. that's a LOT of people to educate, who apparently aren't taking responsibilty to educate themselves. I also don't think it's the babywipes that cause the severe problems. it's the larger, stranger items that are accidentally dropped or intentionally dumped in there: food, shoes, sun glasses, bottles, glow sticks, etc. No one wants to dunk their hand in there and fish out something accidentally dropped, but it does cause a problem. I'm thinking of hanging some unbent coat hangers in the stalls so at least people have a way to get it out and throw it away when it happens. dunno. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:22:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8fd9bc18-7904-4ea4-8004-89535c44aeae Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T04:22:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eb16045e-6a25-44f4-a167-ce6508638dc5 Grace, out of curiosity, have you actually been to burning man? because your posts sound like you may not be accurately informed about how it works. There are many fines given at burning man. In fact, the event brings in much $$$ in fines. The law enforcement seems to focus on drug busts and speeding tickets, presumably because that gives them the most money. There is nothing preventing them from ticketing people for unsafe vehicles or littering. The LEO already park along the exit routes to ticket for other offenses, so if they are not issueing tickets for littering that's a local or state issue. It has nothing to do with burning man. Perhaps you should contact your local representative on the matter. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:15:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eb16045e-6a25-44f4-a167-ce6508638dc5 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T04:15:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#25b75244-ea5c-40ba-ae6e-704e5dc3cb8c Ya people gotta remember that lots of crap falls off your autos on the way home. It's a long way home and it happens. With this being said, it's more likely that this is happening rather than people throwing shit outta the window. Next year, let's take a moment and lock that shit down better! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:15:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#25b75244-ea5c-40ba-ae6e-704e5dc3cb8c Ann 2007-09-05T04:15:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#44596d18-0b57-4702-961c-3f5808048d0e "Action taken could also help the porta-potty services from having their machines blown apart due to humans depositing items other than body waste into the toilets. It's a sad day when someone in your family is injured " You are related to the guy who got the piece of the porta pottie tubing stuck in his neck???? I'm pretty shocked that people still throw stuff other than paper in the porta potty. It's not like people haven't been told NO BABY WIPES about a million times. I think that wins as "Worst Work Related Injury". Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:08:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#44596d18-0b57-4702-961c-3f5808048d0e Danger Angel 2007-09-05T04:08:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#540f39e1-5fd1-4db2-a8c5-6cae2fe8df51 Yes, more police enforcement during the event (like in a real city) and then the community will have those who are fined fined and incarcerated to clean up the roads! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:07:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#540f39e1-5fd1-4db2-a8c5-6cae2fe8df51 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T04:07:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8c32a95-b4da-4b99-a7b3-ac7834220063 If everyone was as careful and forward thinking as you are - we'd have this problem solved! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:04:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8c32a95-b4da-4b99-a7b3-ac7834220063 Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T04:04:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#65cecdc1-f6fd-439c-ba18-1b2a71d3e145 lolololololololol weee love Twat!!! weee love Twat!!! I know. Neither do I. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt just once. After that, well ... I sort of wonder how some people even function when they have the intellectual aptitude of moldy bread. It's semi-fascinating, really. :P Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:00:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#65cecdc1-f6fd-439c-ba18-1b2a71d3e145 kaiya 2007-09-05T04:00:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#949d822c-6591-4960-974a-0a20dab8b06f When ignorance is bliss - you need the help because you can't help yourself. A community that is trashing another community, I believe is ignorant. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:55:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#949d822c-6591-4960-974a-0a20dab8b06f Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T03:55:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a432ab86-fbd5-4754-a9cb-40bd5022385f You can't expect 50,000 people to know how to properly tie knots. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:45:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a432ab86-fbd5-4754-a9cb-40bd5022385f Grace-Indeed 2007-09-05T03:45:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d7d611d3-88a4-4e5f-99dc-8a831879901c On my way back home to Las Vegas I was shocked at the trash along the highway that was not there a week and a half ago when I journied to be dwell with the green man and his followers at BM. Not very green looking. I thought of disposing of my garbage at one of the town dumpsters or trash barrels along the way, but realized as a resident of a small town like Black Rock City it was important not to over burden other communities with my garbage, that could wait a few hours to be disposed of at home where I pay for garbage disposal each month. X's, Beach Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:34:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d7d611d3-88a4-4e5f-99dc-8a831879901c Beach 2007-09-05T00:34:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3309f5ce-1501-4002-b8e9-36db777080f8 "If you have the STRENGTH to carry it in full, you should have the INTELLIGENCE to carry it out empty." Rat, I love that. kind of funny though that it was graff. ;) you know, there are so many experienced people out there. if you can't figure it out how to transport something, ask someone to teach you. you know? Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:31:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3309f5ce-1501-4002-b8e9-36db777080f8 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T00:31:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e0d05087-7e7a-4798-a299-1654723eddf1 "ATTENTION CALIFORNIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We do not throw our trash along our highways in Nevada" really!?!?!?!? what do you call those miserable excuses for yards out there with a million run down cars, washers and dryers, and old tractors?????they look like something from an old horror movie where someone runs out of gas and knocks on the door to ask to use the phone , and the crazy old guy kills the family and sells off their organs and car parts....thats all ive seen on the sides of your roads...ours may look like dumps...but yours are literally dumps Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:28:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e0d05087-7e7a-4798-a299-1654723eddf1 darin 2007-09-05T00:28:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#db6cb1c8-3cb0-4122-9cc2-1654856c3638 No shit. I t's one of the first things I explain to noobs. The question I have for your friends is "How in the hell did you have room to pack it in full, but not be able to take it home empty??!" Rat graffiti" from the Verde Hot Springs in AZ: If you have the STRENGTH to carry it in full, you should have the INTELLIGENCE to carry it out empty. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:24:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#db6cb1c8-3cb0-4122-9cc2-1654856c3638 DzrtRat67 2007-09-05T00:24:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c4c2030b-c847-424f-90a8-e7d6dfc8ecc3 >>BMORG supports RV's being serviced at the event. Why not other garbage? Not true. BMORG hires the honey wagons to clean out the porta potties. If you want your RV pumped out you gotta flag down a truck and pay the guy. It's just between you and him and BMORG has nothing to do with it. >>ATTENTION CALIFORNIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We do not throw our trash along our highways in Nevada Is this an attempt to be funny? Cuz your statent is saying "all Californians throw trash on the highway." that's like saying all people of a certain race are X, or all people of a certain sexual persuasion are Y. It is a crude form of bigotry. Certainly not uncommon. You hear geographical bigotry all the time. People in New Hampshire deride New Yorkers or people in Wisconsin put down those from Illinois. It's tust not a very intelligent or persuasive comment. And it is funny that the thread started with a post in which the person talked about some chick in a pickup with Washington plates. Must have been a transplant from CA! Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:22:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#c4c2030b-c847-424f-90a8-e7d6dfc8ecc3 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-05T00:22:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a170a241-aca4-464f-b77f-695a93e1326b > You have to take into consideration that some people just don't "get the word" about taking their garbage home You are indeed to be commended for standing your ground. If more people would do that on a lot of things, then a few of these problems would take care of themselves. I have to say though, I don't cut people any slack on the trash thing. As a comedian once said about polution "Geez, even a beagle knows not to go where it eats." Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:07:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a170a241-aca4-464f-b77f-695a93e1326b eliptikal 2007-09-05T00:07:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eae861d2-2255-4480-8abc-fe2ec51ad3cd "What about... people volunteering to check their own tie-downs. What a statement of radical self-reliance that would be. :)" agreed. I shouldn't have to babysit my neighbors. and do we really want the event to become a series of checkpoints and inspections? people already complain about the number of restrictions and make police state analogies. sorry, but the community is there to help you when you can't help yourself. not to do the work you're too lazy or ignorant to take care of. Though if one wanted to turn it into a participatory event, a person could put on a sexy sash and a clipboard, going vehicle to vehicle in line, doing "trash inspections". you could even give out tickets. bring along a megaphone and you could probably peer-pressure people into fixing their unstable garbage. ;) Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:06:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#eae861d2-2255-4480-8abc-fe2ec51ad3cd Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-05T00:06:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e954609e-ab02-4c33-a0aa-d3b031d3c2cb The full weight of this sub-thread just crashed into my head.... If someone doesn't know how to tie down some bags of trash... THEY DON'T BELONG IN A GODDAMN DESERT!!! Tying down trash bags should not be a fucking challenging IQ test. I try to be inclusive and non-judgemental, but Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick. How hard can this BE! Sorry. I'm gettin' mean in my old age. Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:01:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e954609e-ab02-4c33-a0aa-d3b031d3c2cb eliptikal 2007-09-05T00:01:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ae5d339d-86ad-4d29-85b7-ace573eb7984 You can't pile your pickup truck bed with light trash, don't tie it down, and then SPEED through the exit line (cutting other cars off) and then cut in line onto the road, again speeding away.... without being cognizant of that. I don't buy it. Twat, I say! Twat!! Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:59:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ae5d339d-86ad-4d29-85b7-ace573eb7984 Brody 2007-09-04T23:59:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5afd396f-70f8-4916-93db-5e43e16ab6b0 > I'd like to see a team of volenteers checking the tie downs. What about... people volunteering to check their own tie-downs. What a statement of radical self-reliance that would be. :) Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:54:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5afd396f-70f8-4916-93db-5e43e16ab6b0 eliptikal 2007-09-04T23:54:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8f5a175-8d2a-4ac4-9b45-b0661606cd44 "You have to take into consideration that some people just don't "get the word" about taking their garbage home " how do such people even make it to the event without learning this? I'm glad you stood your ground. Hopefully they got the lesson and learned from it. It's like when people have to learn about not dumping garbage in the potties... yes, it sucked for you that you forgot a bag for your used maxi pad, but after having to carry it back to your camp I bet you'll remember to bring a bag next time. ;) Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:51:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#f8f5a175-8d2a-4ac4-9b45-b0661606cd44 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-04T23:51:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a01c1ea8-a42e-44e1-ad58-c16c2aae700d Grace, as a burner and a nevadan, let me appologize for the idiots among us. Just like every city there are idiots who only think of themselves. ATTENTION CALIFORNIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We do not throw our trash along our highways in Nevada, we use trash cans. I have been to CA and seen the sides of the roads, they look worse than a dump. If you can't get people to not throw trash at least put your prisoners to work cleaning up. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:47:29 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a01c1ea8-a42e-44e1-ad58-c16c2aae700d Snowlover 2007-09-04T23:47:29Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#025186dd-84c4-4dd1-8754-0b5aef3a7575 You have to take into consideration that some people just don't "get the word" about taking their garbage home (they just assume that once you get it out of the event and into a trash can or dumpster you've done your duty). I had a huge argument on Monday with the couple I rode up with because they wanted to dump all of our trash in the dumpster behind the gas station in Fernly. Their rationale was "this store is making plenty of money off Burners so they should also deal with our trash". I felt like I was being ganged up on by them about dumping it, but didn't back down and we ended up bringing it home to throw away (all at my house since they couldn't fit it into their car when we got here). They were hugely annoyed with me for making us haul it home for 12 hours of driving. In retrospect it would have made MY life a lot easier to back down. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:45:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#025186dd-84c4-4dd1-8754-0b5aef3a7575 *Toni the 2007-09-04T23:45:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e4db0e55-2afe-4cae-9a6d-dc6ce3c103e0 >>What a twat! lololol (god, I haven't heard that word in at LEAST 20 years.) Hopefully, someone alerted her. I'd like to assume that it was a mistake. (I'm thining if you were going to be careless with your trash, wouldn't you just leave it where it lay and not even bother picking it up and putting it in your trunk? ~*~ kaiya Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:37:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e4db0e55-2afe-4cae-9a6d-dc6ce3c103e0 kaiya 2007-09-04T23:37:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#29eafe11-8915-4c63-937e-da09e7e1dbc2 it's called "radical self entitlement"" LOL!!! my bf said this morning: "Burning Man sucks better next year", combining those 2 famous phrases. it totally cracked me up. I'm adding "self-entitlement" to my list of giggles. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:24:08 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#29eafe11-8915-4c63-937e-da09e7e1dbc2 Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-04T23:24:08Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86e6ae84-6f1a-4f05-b7c1-40d51af2c9fa "I guess my point, that trashing the sides of the road is often not intentional." which doesn't excuse it. just because a person doesn't mean to do something wrong doesn't make their action acceptable. "I too think it would be great if the org would step up and help with garbage removal. " I have to agree with an op-ed piece in Piss Clear on this one: when you coddle people you attract the weakest and the laziest (I'm paraphrasing). Educating people is one thing. Lowering standards is another. Radical Self-Reliance means clean up your own mess. Not wait for mommy and daddy (the org) to help you. Having trash pickup would just mean people would be inclined to make more trash and leave more of it behind because someone else would take care of it. If you can't control your own garbage then you aren't responsible enough to attend the event. You need to learn to: (a) make less waste (b) pack less on the way up to allow enough room for garbage on the way back, thus avoiding accidents (c) ask for community help (other burners) if an emergency occurs that causes you to be unable to take care of your own mess You have a whole year to learn A and B before Burning Man 2008. It's not hard. You can practice at home. (that's the global "you" there, not a specific "you") Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:21:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#86e6ae84-6f1a-4f05-b7c1-40d51af2c9fa Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-04T23:21:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a2c697cd-3fd3-4c39-8232-4c917a2961c6 I'd like to see a team of volenteers checking the tie downs. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:14:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a2c697cd-3fd3-4c39-8232-4c917a2961c6 Crypto 2007-09-04T23:14:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ae80f5c2-2100-4d89-889e-e2f589316acb It is unfortunate, but not always intentional. In many people's attempt to Leave No Trace, they can often do more damage than good. In some people's attempt to pack out all the garbage, and not leave a single bag behind, many have overloaded many bags of garbage onto their roof. This year on the way out, I was stuck on the side of the road sleeping behind the broken down truck I was following, while someone else went for a part. I didn't see this happen, just the aftermath. But a car that was apparently overloaded with a bike and several bags of garbage on top of it, perhaps the driver was tired because of the unexpected 5 hour exodus at 2am Sunday night, perhaps they swerved off the road and overcompensated coming back on, but apparently the car flipped and rolled about 3 times. Eventually the police came and surveyed the scene, and then the ambulances came and rolled the driver and passenger away on stretchers, and then finally a tow truck came and towed the car. What was left after this was a very smashed up bike laying on the side of the road, with about 100 feet of garbage strewn along the side of the road. I guess my point, that trashing the sides of the road is often not intentional. And people often put their lives and safety ahead of leaving garbage. And unfortunately, sometimes they fail. I too think it would be great if the org would step up and help with garbage removal. Or perhaps allow a local outside vendor to come in and take care of this for them. It's always been unspoken, but after the high suicide rate among burners after the event, car wrecks along that stretch of the road is the number two cause of death, often taking several lives a year. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:59:39 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#ae80f5c2-2100-4d89-889e-e2f589316acb Unsubscribed 2007-09-04T22:59:39Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4291641c-9add-4432-a96b-a23a69ac1f86 Let us not forget how much trash was dropped throughout the event. I filled my empty backpack with trash on burn night. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:59:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4291641c-9add-4432-a96b-a23a69ac1f86 Laura 2007-09-04T22:59:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7a4c4757-e58e-44f9-a0e3-41fe8d22c7c8 >laying pipe! Heh heh, you said 'laying pipe'.... Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:31:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7a4c4757-e58e-44f9-a0e3-41fe8d22c7c8 Brody 2007-09-04T22:31:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#1966265a-e489-4c83-b083-b1983dbf45c2 I live in Berkeley, I saw a lot of Crap on I-80 well over a 100 miles away from BRC Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:47:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#1966265a-e489-4c83-b083-b1983dbf45c2 Phyfer 2007-09-04T21:47:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bc74d495-ed4b-4f47-91b8-f2baf665ef22 i feel sorry about this and a bit annoyed...i dont know the "soltuion" other than increased individual responsbility...!!! As for BMORG providing dumpsters: YES! Also, they should have a few restaurants (vegetarian of course) and perhaps a hotel or two to rent out rooms? First class hotels on the the esplanade; cheapies in the boonies, just like America. I also feel it's a lot to ask all of us to bring our own water. I mean, what if we forget, or just dont feel like it? We might DIE. So BMORG should definitely install waterfountains - maybe at every corner? And they may as well put in showers, since they'll be laying pipe! and oh yeah: i'm being sarcastic Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:36:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#bc74d495-ed4b-4f47-91b8-f2baf665ef22 daniel 2007-09-04T21:36:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#82d7a92d-2ff8-4903-b83a-e45a03cefbfb one year some trash fell off of my car because I didn't properly secure it (I thought I did, but I didn't), and luckily this happened right as I was pulling out of BRC onto the highway and I saw it and pulled over irght away and picked up all of my trash (it was very little), some other trash that was right there, stuck it inside the car, and drove off. It wasn't a bag of garbage, I forget exactly what it was, it was a couple of items that I just kinda shoved in the pile of things strapped to the top of my car. I felt stupid and I'm a lot more careful now about this. EVERY YEAR I see truckloads of garbage along the highway and it pisses me off! I realize it's usually the result of honest mistakes, but goddamnitt people need to be more responsible! Burning Man is not about having people picking up after you, it's about taking care of your own mess. So to all you people who are "countering" with "well, your little town makes a lot of money from BM so why don't you just clean up after us", go fuck yourselves! Show some fucking respect! How about NOT loosely tying a thin garbage bag to the top of your car and just assuming that it will stay there by the grace of the gods of your alternate reality? How about bringing an extra plastic box just for garbage and then strapping it SECURELY to your car or truck? How about not pissing off the entire region where you like to party? I didn't go to BM this year, I went car camping in NorCal instead. On my way back on the freeway my car was hit by two big objects that their stupid fuckface owners just couldn't see fit to lock down securely. Thank goodness it didn't cause an accident! Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:35:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#82d7a92d-2ff8-4903-b83a-e45a03cefbfb Ted 2007-09-04T21:35:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d51613f6-8368-469a-8bab-ffbe843db9c3 good one, thanks for the laugh and the ring of truth Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:31:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d51613f6-8368-469a-8bab-ffbe843db9c3 daniel 2007-09-04T21:31:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e84eb2cb-5cf4-40e8-9090-4978bd6c4342 whats that????some people feel they dont apply?? Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:12:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e84eb2cb-5cf4-40e8-9090-4978bd6c4342 darin 2007-09-04T21:12:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#06c013bf-1d11-47c7-969c-ca377f7597be <<<what happened to "leave only footprints, take only memories">>> it's called "radical self entitlement" Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:09:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#06c013bf-1d11-47c7-969c-ca377f7597be CTP 2007-09-04T21:09:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01c1338b-f901-4a02-9247-d1ca2f2daf5f "Ravers WANT to do the right thing, but they're just too f'd up after days of sleep deprivation to actually follow their own rules!" I second that. After we took down our Sugar Cube art project in 2006 we were left with a pickup truck's worth of loose garbage that we had to bag up and haul away on the semi truck. One or two people leaving a can, bottle, or paintbrush around an art project is no big deal but when a hundred or so cracked out ravers do it it adds up. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:01:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#01c1338b-f901-4a02-9247-d1ca2f2daf5f $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-04T21:01:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#25741356-7383-4700-b7fb-a3a3cd3cf1af I was with General Purpose and a tiny crew of BRCPO in 2006 who had to lug a school bus full of trash bags to the Reno transfer station. Over 45 big trash bags. We should move "The Gate" to the parking lot of WalMart in Sparks and have burners unwrap their crap their, leaving the packaging at The Source.!!!! PS - i support Grace in complaining about the trash generated by the ten thousands! Packit-IN, Packit-OUT only works with rainbows, not ravers. Ravers WANT to do the right thing, but they're just too f'd up after days of sleep deprivation to actually follow their own rules! Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:49:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#25741356-7383-4700-b7fb-a3a3cd3cf1af Fr!tz 2007-09-04T20:49:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8b5ac6d8-d623-47c0-af00-a830758b65a1 what happened to "leave only footprints, take only memories" when on vacation.....if everyone took everything out that they took in ...theoretically there would be the exact same amount of space taken up in your vehicle....actually less cause boxes, cans ,plastic bottles, bags...etc. can be compacted....its sheer laziness when garbage is left behind Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:39:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#8b5ac6d8-d623-47c0-af00-a830758b65a1 darin 2007-09-04T20:39:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6ab753b1-8916-4196-b3fb-99dd5a996c74 Grace, I too will offer an apology for this behavior. I always secure my trash well, and have never left any of it in Nevada. I take it all the way home and I deal with it properly until it goes into the can. I will also stop if it is safe and pick up any bags I have room for if possible. I know that I and all of my personal friends who go every year are as disgusted as you are by the trash so many leave behind. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:31:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6ab753b1-8916-4196-b3fb-99dd5a996c74 CTP 2007-09-04T20:31:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#35825c70-3464-44b1-b1d4-46ec0b7a3baf I live in Berkeley, I saw a crap on I-80 well over a 100 miles away from BRC Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:16:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#35825c70-3464-44b1-b1d4-46ec0b7a3baf Phyfer 2007-09-04T20:16:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#71af8602-15f3-4b4b-8811-b99681253d7c Something has to be done about this community and environmental problem. Do you want to be the highway worker cleaning up buckets and bags of human waste? BMORG supports RV's being serviced at the event. Why not other garbage? Action taken could also help the porta-potty services from having their machines blown apart due to humans depositing items other than body waste into the toilets. It's a sad day when someone in your family is injured while pumping a porta-potty or when you hit debris in the road and damage your car. The Nevada Department of Transportation along with two Police officers were on the highway cleaning up the latest trash piles this morning. Also they were helping to move a broken down playa vehicle - the sad news is I only travelled one exit (less than a mile) down the highway. Nevada's economy is not dependent upon this event. It's a drop in the bucket compared to just a few of the other local larger events such as Street Vibrations, The Best in the West, or Hot August Nights. My American Dream does not involve seeing my community trashed. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:08:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#71af8602-15f3-4b4b-8811-b99681253d7c Grace-Indeed 2007-09-04T20:08:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#43db21d0-7360-4363-9564-ec32355ed06f I live in Berkeley, I saw a lot of crap on I-80 well over a 100 miles away from BRC Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:08:25 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#43db21d0-7360-4363-9564-ec32355ed06f Phyfer 2007-09-04T20:08:25Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#57358621-90a9-4f58-b45c-e832802c247e Something has to be done about this community and environmental problem. Do you want to be the highway worker cleaning up buckets and bags of human waste? BMORG supports RV's being serviced at the event. Why not other garbage? Action taken could also help the porta-potty services from having their machines blown apart due to humans depositing items other than body waste into the toilets. It's a sad day when someone in your family is injured while pumping a porta-potty or when you hit debris in the road and damage your car. The Nevada Department of Transportation along with two Police officers were on the highway cleaning up the latest trash piles this morning. Also they were helping to move a broken down playa vehicle - the sad news is I only travelled one exit (less than a mile) down the highway. Nevada's economy is not dependent upon this event. It's a drop in the bucket compared to just a few of the other local larger events such as Street Vibrations, The Best in the West, or Hot August Nights. My American Dream does not involve seeing my community trashed. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:08:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#57358621-90a9-4f58-b45c-e832802c247e Grace-Indeed 2007-09-04T20:08:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0191dea9-0e21-41c3-b7fa-0fda41154272 I live in Berkeley, I saw a lot of crap on I-80 well past a 100 miles from BRC. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:58:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#0191dea9-0e21-41c3-b7fa-0fda41154272 Phyfer 2007-09-04T19:58:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a2bbe74b-4f56-41ae-8a6b-e92e8e9441b3 Well, I live in Berkeley. I did see a lot of crap on I-80 well over a 100 miles away. Not very green Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:53:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a2bbe74b-4f56-41ae-8a6b-e92e8e9441b3 Phyfer 2007-09-04T19:53:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6856a88e-40b5-42c7-90fd-250ac9bf65f2 I paid someone in gerlach last year, he had a trailer and a pickup and was charging 5 dollars per bag which I happily paid since I had another 2,500 miles to go. Dude was makin more then a buck I'd have to image . Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:38:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#6856a88e-40b5-42c7-90fd-250ac9bf65f2 Knagi 2007-09-04T19:38:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#04c774b3-16f9-4646-8022-db522880e4b2 Not dump it off on the way back. Them's the rules folks. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#04c774b3-16f9-4646-8022-db522880e4b2 Betsy 2007-09-04T19:36:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#beb3a4c5-4c99-4fcb-84f3-8a906d7f1ac2 Not dump it off on the way back. Them's the rules folks. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:34:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#beb3a4c5-4c99-4fcb-84f3-8a906d7f1ac2 Betsy 2007-09-04T19:34:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d6bb0618-d9d5-460b-b69e-f9aad0af20ac that's what we're supposed to do...any trash we use we DON'T DUMP IT OFF SOMEWHERE ON THE WAY BACK, WE BRING IT HOME and put it in our own trash cans that are probably empty since we haven't been there in a week or so. having to carry home bags of trash should also make us more mindfull of buying things with a lot of packaging. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:33:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#d6bb0618-d9d5-460b-b69e-f9aad0af20ac Betsy 2007-09-04T19:33:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7428b1e9-af44-466b-8d78-0b39c6587a74 I bet an enterprising person could make a lot of money by renting dumpsters, placing them in or near Gerlach and then charging people to dump their garbage. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:28:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#7428b1e9-af44-466b-8d78-0b39c6587a74 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-04T19:28:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a74624fa-1a05-4538-9c24-5fb5ac598abb This makes me sick to hear this. We succeeded in cleaning our camp, picking up others trash from the windstorms, and then packing it all out. We did not want to be part of the problem we have read about in previous years about the exit roads and towns being "Trashed". I have to say that we felt that some of the community spirit of BM was gone. We witnessed so much disregard for people, camps, destruction of art, stealing... I had an art installation out on the playa and experienced these things personally too. Greatly disappointed in some parts of the event. I hope someone can find this person and get her to come back and put in some hours picking up her "Stuff". Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:46:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#a74624fa-1a05-4538-9c24-5fb5ac598abb Flamer 2007-09-04T17:46:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#857b2427-faf7-443b-bffb-c6837c376ab0 No, no, no--no trash collection. It simply wouldn't work. If anything it would increase the amount of trash on the highways, plus up the price of tickets. there is simply no way the llc can take care of the trash of a city of 40,000 + for a week. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:45:58 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#857b2427-faf7-443b-bffb-c6837c376ab0 Crypto 2007-09-04T17:45:58Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#54e1418c-205b-4c33-8a04-81f1b9f37673 I agree. If they can charge for coffee and ice they can come up with some way to offer trash collection at a price as well. Our camp paid for an outhouse so that we could be somewhat more comfortable than in previous years so I know there are companies willing to accommodate the masses, for a price even if BMORG doesn't feel like doing it themselves. But I am afraid that there are people who would rather simply let their garbage be someone else's problem. They are the same folks who pee openly onto the playa and dump beer bottles into the outhouses. I was also behind a red Toyota pickup with a young woman driving like a bat out of hell on Saturday afternoon with trash spewing out from the rear of her truck as if it was on purpose. When I saw that she had pulled over in the first town after BRC I notified the nearby sheriff what I had just witnessed and asked him to have a talk with her. It always amazes me to see the disregard people show for the environment around them and lack of consideration for people around them. That is a very big problem and unfortunately I know of no easy solution. I guess they never learned the simple extension of the golden rule, don't shit where you eat, or something like that. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:36:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#54e1418c-205b-4c33-8a04-81f1b9f37673 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-04T16:36:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3c9f8f2b-f0fa-45a8-9e5c-7f4ba81d2715 >How does one manage that? By being retarded and not tying down your loads, either accidentally or on purpose. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:24:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#3c9f8f2b-f0fa-45a8-9e5c-7f4ba81d2715 Brody 2007-09-04T16:24:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e2e84e7a-1882-4b49-85c5-915186548532 And this is different from Nevada normally in what sense? Seriously, Grace -- our apologies. I've hauled some pretty amazingly awful loads back to Oregon before throwing them willy-nilly along the highway. Not to offer an excuse in any way but it strikes me that your local grocery store and fuel station probably garner a reasonable percentage of their annual sales during this period. I know that I've dumped trash (not my whole camp, mind you) at a gas station while filling up. The median/exit thing? Truly retarded. How does one manage that? (Probably rhetorical). Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:22:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#e2e84e7a-1882-4b49-85c5-915186548532 Delicious Clint: 2007-09-04T16:22:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5120b8e6-ee30-4a34-a59f-ed8405ecb75e This reminds me- I saw the most disgusting thing on Saturday early afternoon (before the Man burnt-for-reals). We were leaving the event, and a small red pickup truck with Washington plates, driven by a tallish slender dark-haired woman, was speeding to get out of the event. The entire back of her pickup was piled full of trash. NOT tied down at all, and light stuff like cardboard, plastic bags, other stuff. As she sped past us, the stuff was blowing out of the truck and onto the road (both the private Burning Man exit road, then THEN the highway to Gerlach). What a twat! I can't believe someone would purposely do this- it seemed like she was trying to "get rid" of her trash by letting it all blow away. If anyone knows a tall dark haired woman in a red pickup with Washington plates.... I'd like to know her name so I can publicly shame her! Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:16:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#5120b8e6-ee30-4a34-a59f-ed8405ecb75e Brody 2007-09-04T16:16:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4cc2e310-1c67-46c7-bd2e-85e660cfa78a On behalf of the responsible people who come to BM I'm truley sorry for this. Maybe the BMORG needs to suck it up and provide some dumpsters for those who are too over loaded and/or lazy. I know it sounds like baby sitting, but sometimes pragmatism should rule. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:11:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#4cc2e310-1c67-46c7-bd2e-85e660cfa78a blackfly 2007-09-04T16:11:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#253e06f3-19fe-4992-abfd-fe02f0ac7959 Everyone should send Grace $10 for cleaning up the communities refuse. Sorry Grace, from everyone. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:07:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#253e06f3-19fe-4992-abfd-fe02f0ac7959 Danger Angel 2007-09-04T16:07:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#33f58834-addd-4262-b1d4-b7c16daad68a I live over a hundred miles away from your event. Why are my local grocery and fuel stations dumpsters overflowing with trash? Why are the exit ramps and highway medians covered with litter? It's not hard to miss the evidence of playa dust, light sticks, and piss bottles. Now my community has to clean up your trash. Anger and disgust 100 miles away! Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:05:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/91c8fda3-69b7-4fe9-9a35-dfb8d1380444#33f58834-addd-4262-b1d4-b7c16daad68a Grace-Indeed 2007-09-04T16:05:42Z