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I watcht the segment on Discovery Times on Burning Man '05. For the most part I did find it to be fair. However, I did notice they focused on drugs too much and not enought about with maked Burning Man Burning Man.
Yes there is drugs at Burning Man. but I felt that Discovery Times made a point to say it was all about drugs at BM. As we know it is not nessary true. I most of the people they interviewed where high.
I also feel that Discovery Times should of talked more about Katrina. The good people of BRC opened thier hearts and gave money just by work of mouth. Also Discovery Times did mention Katrina... It was more liked no one knew about it and we just partied on. NOT TRUE.
Discovery Times should of shown BM 05 map not BM 04. You know... the planets.
I also feel that Discovery Times should show less of the reported tring to act like a burner and more of BM!!! The shold showed more art and camps.
What do you think?
Cross the Sidhe
Yes there is drugs at Burning Man. but I felt that Discovery Times made a point to say it was all about drugs at BM. As we know it is not nessary true. I most of the people they interviewed where high.
I also feel that Discovery Times should of talked more about Katrina. The good people of BRC opened thier hearts and gave money just by work of mouth. Also Discovery Times did mention Katrina... It was more liked no one knew about it and we just partied on. NOT TRUE.
Discovery Times should of shown BM 05 map not BM 04. You know... the planets.
I also feel that Discovery Times should show less of the reported tring to act like a burner and more of BM!!! The shold showed more art and camps.
What do you think?
Cross the Sidhe
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 1:02 AMthey didn't show nearly enough art, for sure.
They could have done a lot more art footage and less what's-his-face musings which were... dorky.. for lack of a better word.
I don't know that you could say if most of the people were high that were interviewed. They seemed altogether present to me.. and I found it ironic that he stated BM was nothin but a party yet not a single person he talked to (within the documentary) would agree and could not attest to that. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 8:34 AMI watched it last nite for the first time too. All I could think the whole time listening to the narration was "what an asshole" and I'm sure glad I didn't meet him on the playa. He was a pompous, condescending dork with a pre-concieved notion of what burningman was all about. The very first minutes he told the audience you were expected to dress a certain way, and expected to act a certain way. Clearly clueless. He came to the event with an agenda and found footage and dialogue to support his gameplan. He was judgemental and made no attempt to broaden his own horizon except for those few camera worthy moments. What a jackass. My only hope is that he's so annoying on camera and so clearly a dick, that anyone who has never been exposed to the real burningman community turned the channel when the show came on.
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 12:00 PMI guess it didn't bother me as much because no matter what he said, the people he interviewed said it so much better... and if I had never been and was watching it, I would be more inclined to listen to the participants instead of him.
Try an experiment: watch it again, only this time ignore everything Charlie says and focus on what the participants say. It's suddenly a MUCH better documentary. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 3:16 PMI could figure on that much. And I do consider what I'd think not having been. But theres one thing to be said for having ideas that were conceived about the event before even seeing it on discovery, and another to be said for being able to seperate what charlie had to say on the show itself. Had i still not been for the first time in 05, I for one would not have been convinced that it was a bunch of hypocritical drug users- altho perhaps slightly, since they barely showed a remotely tiny fraction of art, but they didn't show people wasted out of their brains either... as I said everyone seemed perfectly reasonable and not high. In fact the people he asked on the show about doing drugs said they were having such a good time they didn't feel the need.
Also I think I would be hard-pressed to agree with his statement that "this is everthing that's wrong with america" after learning that people are serving drinks and helping people be pampered in a boutique in the desert... how the fuck do you come to that conclusion? I mean short of being a frickin communist...
The biggest indicator of his lack of respect was that he claimed he wanted to egg the man to see if he could incite the peace/love-spouting attendees to violence, since they claimed they were against it. That would have struck me as disrespectful no matter having been or not. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:24 AM>>>>Also I think I would be hard-pressed to agree with his statement that "this is everthing that's wrong with america" after learning that people are serving drinks and helping people be pampered in a boutique in the desert... how the fuck do you come to that conclusion? I mean short of being a frickin communist...<<<<
I think he was trying to be sarcastic with that. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 5:45 PMaaaaaaaaaa i guess you're right...... well thats good.
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 4:20 PMLets get a human sized cutout of charlie onto the playa this year as art.
Then we can egg him as a show of our radical self expression.
And we can hold mock interviews with him, and dress him up and take photos with him.
Friday night, he burns.
Somebody bring a videocamera. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 5:46 PMreally a fantastic idea.!
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:10 AMI've watched it twice so far. Once normally to see what it is all about. The second time however, I watched it with mute on. It was wonderful when I never heard the guy talk. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 5:24 PM"The very first minutes he told the audience you were expected to dress a certain way, and expected to act a certain way. "
This statement is really not that far off the mark. The second least of all. You are expected to act a certain way. There are countless printed and posted rules about the way to act as well as many unspoken norms of behavior. To think other wise is to ignore the facts and to put the event into a cloud coo coo land of lollypops and unicorns. I think we should all be glad for many of these norms of behavior.
As for the dress statement. I find this to be true as well. Not as much back in 95/96 but now a days I think you will find your interactions with others will be greatly influenced by your "dress". Also by your attitude but yes it will be very much affected by the way you adorn yourself as well.
Is this bad?
Things need not be so black and white as good or bad.
But they are true. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 8:35 PMGood points. Watch how quiet it gets in here tho. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:06 PMall I can say is sure you are right, but I have said it before and I'll say it again- yeah burning man society is different from the everyday one you're in, but it is drawing its attendance from the same planet, the same culture, sheesh...
and as for the norms of behavior. without any specifics I'm thinking you mean like the ones that make people easier get along........ well get over it. Those expected modes of behavior also exist in everyday society and weren't invented by christianity, they were invented by necessity.
Now i feel like i'm trying to pick a fight. ya just had to say we'd get quiet didncha... -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:33 PMI agree about the norms of behavior and that how you dress will likely have an impact on your interractions with others, but I don't believe it's the same as 'expecting' people to act of dress a certain way. The only real expected norms of behavior are those that help us get along as a community, but people break those norms all the time, and there really aren't any ramifications for it. So I'm not sure I would call it an expectation outside of the basic participation, LNT and no commerce principles. When he said he said that participants were expected to act a certain way, he neglected to mention LNT - and in my experience, that's the only real expectation that exists. As for dress, it's purely choice on how people adorn themselves. I don't think you're expected to dress, or not dress, in any particular way. You dress the way you choose depending on how you'd like to interract. Which to me, does not imply expectation. IMHO anyone who enters BRC does not have an expectation placed upon them other than the expectations they place upon themselves.
Not lookin to pick a fight, I just didn't like the guy and I think he missed the mark on many levels.
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:39 PMYour post confuses me. When I posted what I did I merely pointed out that what he said was factually correct. That people are expected to act and yes at times dress a specific way. I also said this was not a bad thing and is normal for human interaction. So what exactly am I getting over?
Lets look.
"all I can say is sure you are right, but I have said it before and I'll say it again- yeah burning man society is different from the everyday one you're in, but it is drawing its attendance from the same planet, the same culture, sheesh... "
Yes it is. Whats the sheesh about? Looks like we are on the same page here.
"and as for the norms of behavior. without any specifics I'm thinking you mean like the ones that make people easier get along........ "
Yes and also ones like "leave no trace" and "participate". all part of the Burning Man culture. Agin, not a bad thing.
"well get over it."
Huh? What am I upset about that I should get over?
"Those expected modes of behavior also exist in everyday society and weren't invented by christianity, "
Where did Christianity come into this?
"they were invented by necessity."
Yes some of them where. I totally agree. So again what was your point?
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 9:50 PM"I agree about the norms of behavior and that how you dress will likely have an impact on your interractions with others, but I don't believe it's the same as 'expecting' people to act of dress a certain way. The only real expected norms of behavior are those that help us get along as a community, but people break those norms all the time, and there really aren't any ramifications for it. So I'm not sure I would call it an expectation outside of the basic participation, LNT and no commerce principles. When he said he said that participants were expected to act a certain way, he neglected to mention LNT - and in my experience, that's the only real expectation that exists. As for dress, it's purely choice on how people adorn themselves. I don't think you're expected to dress, or not dress, in any particular way. You dress the way you choose depending on how you'd like to interract. Which to me, does not imply expectation. IMHO anyone who enters BRC does not have an expectation placed upon them other than the expectations they place upon themselves. '
A well thought out and logical post. I do stand by the idea that the inpact on your interactions are so large that they border on expectations but I see your point and In retrospect tend to agree with your ideas about expectation vs impact. Thank you for taking the time to post. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 6:17 AM"I do stand by the idea that the inpact on your interactions are so large that they border on expectations"
... and I'd like to see more of us challenge that notion because I believe that 'expectation' exists only because people buy into it. I'd like to see fewer people conform to what is a percieved expectation. I'd like to see more people interract with others on the playa with less consideration as to how they are adorned and with more consideration as to who they are. I'd like to see more people internalize radical self expression and truly leave their expectations of others back in the default world.
But perhaps I'm expecting too much :-)
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 12:12 AMI was replying to you but I was responding to similar sentiments I've seen expressed all over, obviously not directly something you said. It's a public forum, I was speaking to the public, about what was on my mind. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 9:00 AMOk then. I thought I was loosing my mind for a moment. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 10:04 AMno, no, just drunk posting on my part.. :D -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 10:26 AMI think it's kinda sad that the "Malcolm in the Middle" episode was a more realistic and fun portrayal of the event than "Only in America". -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 10:27 AMThank you Chai!!! I am glad there someone else out there who thinks that!! -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 10:33 AMNo and I see this as the complete failure of the Org that this program was bribed (allowed) into existence. -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Mon, February 13, 2006 - 10:50 PMI was actually there when he threw the eggs. I though he was a jerk too. Even if Larry Harvey said it was ok it was still wrong. I mean he is not just throwing egs at some object... He is throwing them where people are at. I would hate to see someones costume get ruined buy a guy who is after ratings.
I do say it was a bad call on Larry Harvey part.
The BRC Ranger did the right thing.
Cross -
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Re: Discovery Times - My Opinion
Tue, February 14, 2006 - 11:46 AMGranted, throwing eggs at the Man while the pyro team is setting up is dangerous and stupid. But I think what Charlie was really trying to do was test the community's real tolerance for an outsider defacing our own icon. It was not just a ballsy move but also a relevant inquiry.
What can and can't we think, say, or do to the Man? Where's the boundaries in this so-called 'chaotic free-for-all' and how incensed will we get if someone tampers with them?
Burners have always claimed that the powerful allure of Burning Man lies in its elusive ability to mean anything and/or nothing. Essentially we like to protect it from the cynical criticisms of other extraordinary ideas and experiences by arming it with formlessness.
And this has worked pretty well.
Want to take a shot at the ideology behind Burning Man? Sorry- there isn't one.
Want to write a scathing diatribe about our beliefs and taboos? Have fun! We'll just show you our infinite capacity to break any and all expectation and defy your categorization.
Want to de-mystify the cult and pooh-pooh the spiritual authenticity of the festival? Who cares! We'll just crack a beer in your face and tell you its just a party!
Want to throw eggs at the Man?
"Sure go ahead and throw eggs at the Man..." - Larry Harvey
The Man isn't the important thing anyway, right?
Burners have always left a kind of evasive backdoor or irreverent escape hatch on the bigger Meaning of it all to keep it innocuous to the dogmatic pitfalls of so many other flawed rituals and belief systems that we see in the world. That's why we love it right? We'll never get stuck in the ugly business of worshipping idolatry, fighting over metaphors, or becoming violently inflamed because someone merely made fun of our icon by drawing it in a cartoon or throwing eggs at it.
I think Charlie was just trying to figure out where we stand in this light, where our convictions lie, and how institutionalized we may have become with them.
It's a valid question.
But what I did take a little offense to was the fact that since Burning Man is predominantly a bunch of docile middle class white people he knew that he could get away with saying and doing all that shit.
I can't wait for the episode of Only in America when Charlie shows up at the Zozobra festival in Santa Fe and starts getting cocky with local Mexican families, telling them how stupid and disrespectful the whole thing is, and throwing eggs at the effigy.
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