http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#3cc30de1-b6c9-45ae-9807-5e92030b0d50 "Trasparency, open honesty, and full disclosure are what we all need to practice. You go first" Yep. Let's lead by example. Even if no one else will, I'll keep publishing meeting minutes from any BMORG meeting that I attend. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:20:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#3cc30de1-b6c9-45ae-9807-5e92030b0d50 Adam 2007-11-19T20:20:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#78ea9e18-c8da-4af9-8795-5c0b9f6470de In America we can't have radical transparency if we expect the wealthy to still rape the rest of the country of it's resources. What's wrong with you for thinking otherwise? Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:02:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#78ea9e18-c8da-4af9-8795-5c0b9f6470de $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-19T19:02:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#9604249f-fff8-4c8c-bc5d-1d24b15899be "Trasparency, open honesty, and full disclosure are what we all need to practice. You go first" Sure, like when I discussed with my current boyfriend that my ex is gonna be in town and that I might want to go have a drink with him and hang out for a few hours. It was scary to talk about, but a lot better than hiding it and sneaking around. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:44:02 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#9604249f-fff8-4c8c-bc5d-1d24b15899be Supernova 2007-11-19T05:44:02Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#20444887-8023-40c3-98cb-bc99e1818cb4 Geekster: > I am SURE they will LOVE the idea of Exxon/Mobile having to come clean... The timing is amazing. it's almost like some techie read this post, and then went and immediately plugged the OPEC meeting into a live TV feed. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:16:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#20444887-8023-40c3-98cb-bc99e1818cb4 Adam 2007-11-19T05:16:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#f1732e7a-8a74-4ba4-92ca-a5c9ea4b68e4 Trasparency, open honesty, and full disclosure are what we all need to practice. You go first. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:00:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#f1732e7a-8a74-4ba4-92ca-a5c9ea4b68e4 cℎ@5tॐrմʃ 2007-11-19T04:00:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#73c4e6ca-2bbf-4b70-8869-5b42318e68d9 "Should that go all the way back to the clearing of the forest that created the field that grew the crop that fed the pig that went into the wiener that Geekster ate?" You forgot, on a log, in a hole, at the bottom of the sea.... Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:52:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#73c4e6ca-2bbf-4b70-8869-5b42318e68d9 $item.owner.firstName 2007-11-18T18:52:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#4590008d-bc9d-4b22-b8a5-1a196cc1f882 And another thread soiled. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:44:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#4590008d-bc9d-4b22-b8a5-1a196cc1f882 grouchosuave 2007-11-18T04:44:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#c2fa4145-4e44-4467-8267-0cc9c80791c6 "There was apparently dissent even among the BMORG leadership - but we don't know that for sure" Not answered. except for your assertion... "We've all heard rumors and inuendos about Larry laughing about the early burn" Hmmm.... KK Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:31:48 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#c2fa4145-4e44-4467-8267-0cc9c80791c6 Kamikaze 2007-11-18T04:31:48Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#9e5132d6-4b55-4608-b9e4-a552d1092704 Kamikaze: > Then why post this statement? Does saying it make it true? We've all heard rumors and inuendos about Larry laughing about the early burn and so on. The members of the BMORG leadership team could clarify their actual views for us, but this is a case where they chose not to be open and transparent. As for the legal issues, it's not a matter that they cannot speak, but simply that they might not want to. Here's what some lawyers had to say about it. http://attorneysandlaymen.tribe.net/thread/cf9c75c2-864f-4245-ad94-0db04054749a Supernova: I agree with you 100% about honesty and transparency. Here's another related topic about the degrees of honesty. The team of the SF decompression apparently chose to make it less than completely clear that the donation was entirely optional. Many of the attendees didn't realize that. I brought this up with the special events team leader. He asked me how they could be more open and honest.... My answer was to put the word "optional" in their event advertising, and list the prices as "suggested". But he didn't feel any obligations to be that honest with that community. Should people only feel an obligation to be honest; as in not telling lies? Or should they feel an obligation to be as honest as possible; trying to ensure that people understand the truth? For me, the second option is the clear choice. The first one, in my opinion, borders on dishonesty. > > What else are the dark and confusing points within people and organizations? What of BMORG, specifically, do we want to know? What else should they tell us? They claim that their intent isn't to get rich off of this project, but are they telling the truth? I don't think that they need to publish each person's individual salaries. But to show their good intent, I think that they should place appropriate limits on salaries, bonuses, and expense accounts. And that they should have an independent accountant to validate their books. That way we can know that they, as individuals, are not making more than $X off of the community. They should also give a breakdown of their sources of corporate income, so that we can see where exactly all of the money is coming from. I've proposed a regularly scheduled Q&A session, or town hall, with the BMORG leadership team, so that people could have questions directly answered. The BMORG's PR person said that 4 hours a month was too much of their time. Then she said they'd consider it. That's the last I heard on the topic. That's just a starting point for as to how the BMORG could be more transparent. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:17:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#9e5132d6-4b55-4608-b9e4-a552d1092704 Adam 2007-11-18T04:17:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1f7fb54d-9f4c-44ef-adee-1e0e8d335e8c surely its not about forcing anything upon anyone, surely its simply trying to lead by example. Saying 'I'm not going to do it because that guy over there isn't going to do it' is a bit lame. encouraging responsible business is a positive, a small positive which will probably have limited impact, but a positive nonethless. and regards the 'Made in US' issue, every strong economy on the planet is in the same boat, not just the US, its just a characteristic of having a strong economy and high salaries, get over it. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 03:34:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1f7fb54d-9f4c-44ef-adee-1e0e8d335e8c Seanan 2007-11-18T03:34:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#738860d5-c3d5-403d-88d6-3907b1bad0d3 And another thing ... How are you going to force, say, a Chinese company to abide by the same guidelines? Take the largest corporation in the world ... PetroChina, I am SURE they will LOVE the idea of Exxon/Mobile having to come clean with anything anyone asks but do you think they will? Not a chance. This sounds to me like another Kyoto scam. Where you put some hobbles on Western business so countries like China can absolutely ignore it and take over market after market. Ever notice how much of the stuff you buy is not made by American companies? Ever try to ONLY buy stuff made in the US? Lots of luck. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:56:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#738860d5-c3d5-403d-88d6-3907b1bad0d3 Geekster 2007-11-18T02:56:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7eb6e846-df58-4782-878e-4234ab47cfd6 yes, you suggested a project with no spending, and little income, should hire an outside accountant to keep a record of those transactions (the cost of which would actually put the project into debt). constructive ideas? (preferably in the FM tribe) Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:15:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7eb6e846-df58-4782-878e-4234ab47cfd6 Træ 2007-11-18T02:15:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#fcb4d5dc-0257-44be-aeba-7983d23bcebb What I am saying is that it is really meaningless. It is designed only to create some notion that unless your company has the special "Transparency" symbol on the sign that you are somehow dishonest and if you do that your competition is dishonest or something. Besides, in real life it is impossible. It is pie in the sky. Companies withhold information for many reasons. One important one is market competition. Imagine you are playing poker and you have a really crappy hand. You are going to be in favor of everyone showing their cards because you have nothing to lose. The guy sitting on three aces is not going to be all that in favor of it. Also, lawyers don't want people saying things that could land the company in court and want to speak with a single voice. I personally deal with non-disclosure agreements all the time. How a company has their network built is often rather closely held and only those with a need to know get the full picture. But it is just another hipster notion of "the world would be a better place if those people over there did this". In other words, it is about someone else doing something. How about you start first.. How about you become completely transparent about all your financial information to include debts, income, credit history, etc. See? Sucks and impractical for the vast majority of people. Honesty is something you teach in elementary school. A company is only as honest as the people it employs. To call a company dishonest is to call their employees personally dishonest. Ever hear of the notion that personnel is policy? Hire honest people and your company will behave in an honest fashion. You can't legislate or regulate morals. They are what they are and are a reflection of the surrounding culture. Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:15:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#fcb4d5dc-0257-44be-aeba-7983d23bcebb Geekster 2007-11-18T00:15:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#a7538fc5-a7d4-4a0f-8c19-ea3b634c15d9 Adam "There was apparently dissent even among the BMORG leadership - but we don't know that for sure" Then why post this statement? Does saying it make it true? I could say 'Adam apparently is trying to take peoples money and get an ego stroke at the same time, but we don't know that for sure". Adam "They chose to remain silent on the issue" Really??? A matter under litigation? Corporate members that heed their Attorneys advice of " No comment" are somehow wrong now? Even when it is not Burningman filing charges??? Are you now working for the Addis Defense Team trying to solicit a mistrial???? Damn...I knew you were many things to many people, but I never suspected that you were a Lawyer! KK Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:17:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#a7538fc5-a7d4-4a0f-8c19-ea3b634c15d9 Kamikaze 2007-11-17T23:17:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#c03f6751-ecee-4df3-8638-d2cc5ba1a898 Wow, so I state, officially in all my authority: Let the times of Transparency, right now, begin. What else are the dark and confusing points within people and organizations? What of BMORG, specifically, do we want to know? We'd like to know what is really going on with Paul Addis. How can we find this out? Has anybody asked? Can we call HQ and just straight up ask somebody? What would happen? Who wants to do it? Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:05:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#c03f6751-ecee-4df3-8638-d2cc5ba1a898 Supernova 2007-11-17T23:05:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7c378919-9d18-480e-b654-04644bb78287 "Not companies making marketing campaigns out of "If you ask us a question, we will answer you!" as if that is somehow a novel idea that our culture has never seen before." So Geekster, what I'm hearing is that you don't like companies making marketing campaigns on this concept. I also hear you saying that the essence of transparency itself (honesty, openness, communication, etc) is something you'd like to see more of. And there are some good examples given within our own Burning Man community. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:01:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7c378919-9d18-480e-b654-04644bb78287 Supernova 2007-11-17T23:01:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#513dc2ac-862d-47a1-b2f7-541fec54c341 Better yet...how about a transparent Floatingman? I encouraged you to open YOUR books, and you have yet to honor that request. Walk the walk, don't talk us to death... KK Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:43:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#513dc2ac-862d-47a1-b2f7-541fec54c341 Kamikaze 2007-11-17T22:43:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#3fa612d1-7973-4f3c-9cbd-2d85af3676af > Now imagine if our government took that approach? Having a radically transparent government is a far away dream. Should we start more locally? Imagine a radically transparent BMORG? The Paul Addis scandal is the biggest issue of recent days. There was apparently dissent even among the BMORG leadership - but we don't know that for sure. They chose to remain silent on the issue, or almost silent - issuing only a couple of terse press releases. Is that they way to build community? Instead, they _could_ have chosen to really share, and speak openly with all of us. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:10:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#3fa612d1-7973-4f3c-9cbd-2d85af3676af Adam 2007-11-17T22:10:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#2afebe3e-1c01-4d2f-825b-955b84f53b56 >It sounds to me like something out of the Center for the Creation of Trendy Business Differentiation Mechanisms to Get You To Buy Stuff From Me. ...and Allow Me to Provide Input Into the Various Policy and Decision Making Processes While I Sit and do Nothing. You speared that one nicely Geekster. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:48:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#2afebe3e-1c01-4d2f-825b-955b84f53b56 Badger 2007-11-17T20:48:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#feda01c1-9120-400a-b5e1-a0b022ec9e74 And ther is the stalwart beacon of Boonville, the Anderson Valley Advertiser http://www.theava.com/ Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:55:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#feda01c1-9120-400a-b5e1-a0b022ec9e74 grouchosuave 2007-11-17T19:55:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#2571f330-725d-495a-bae4-36dfaff360d7 Wow, what a totally engaging thread wilth ideas and solutions and concrete possibilites for change and ... and... More baby more... This is precisely why Geekster rocks. Well, I'll organize my thoughts a little better to continue. But I gotta clean the catbox first, finish breakfast and then I am going out into my community and meeting up with my neighbor to help him rebuild his mototcycle engine. w00t!! Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:52:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#2571f330-725d-495a-bae4-36dfaff360d7 grouchosuave 2007-11-17T19:52:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#87018d21-ce86-4326-aa22-d67ec24a09d2 'zactly., That's what we need more of. Not companies making marketing campaigns out of "If you ask us a question, we will answer you!" as if that is somehow a novel idea that our culture has never seen before. I have dealt with a lot of companies in my life that have made mistakes, owned up to them, and made them right. Most of the time it isn't so much as a policy as it is the individuals involved doing the right thing. I think the idea is more along the lines of "We are going to try to make hay in the marketplace by doing what we have always done all along and just given it a name and implied that our competition is a pack of lying scum". Do you really think they are going to send a memo to employees that says "Our company policy has changed. It is no longer policy to lie to customers, we now tell the truth"? Of course not, because it is never policy to lie. What you most likely had ... and will CONTInUE TO HAVE ... are lawyers telling people to be quiet so they don't make things worse in any potential litigation. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:36:20 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#87018d21-ce86-4326-aa22-d67ec24a09d2 Geekster 2007-11-17T17:36:20Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#aa345b33-9711-442f-9758-aaf14d30f922 >>>Now ... imagine a newspaper that didn't carry a SINGLE world news story and maybe only a couple of national stories buried back in the third section.<<<< www.blackrockbeacon.org Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:06:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#aa345b33-9711-442f-9758-aaf14d30f922 Mitch 2007-11-17T12:06:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#a1c691fb-b475-4a5b-9838-5ace0797e044 I don't believe Transparency is about telling "everything to everyone all the time." Transparency is about not hiding anything. It's a subtle but powerful difference. One is of the ego, the other is of the Spirit. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:51:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#a1c691fb-b475-4a5b-9838-5ace0797e044 Supernova 2007-11-17T09:51:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#d06ef1a9-5eec-4d6d-9887-256239c7c102 Hi. Just don't feel like looking at Scott's hometown paper tonight. Although I remember the Star and Tribune from the 80s when I lived there. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:17:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#d06ef1a9-5eec-4d6d-9887-256239c7c102 Crypto 2007-11-17T09:17:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#456e83bb-fbc7-48f1-b288-8f3f94a3f0df You don't need fancy "transparency" buzzwords, you just need lots of sunlight. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:58:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#456e83bb-fbc7-48f1-b288-8f3f94a3f0df Geekster 2007-11-17T08:58:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1b5ce81c-9a64-4a7e-9c69-91b521bac918 Oh, and to see what the Star Tribune is doing, have a look at http://buzz.mn/ That's their community website. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:56:26 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1b5ce81c-9a64-4a7e-9c69-91b521bac918 Geekster 2007-11-17T08:56:26Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7067479e-c337-4218-9638-34ef3a17b1a1 Oh, and HI! :) Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:54:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#7067479e-c337-4218-9638-34ef3a17b1a1 Geekster 2007-11-17T08:54:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1266b733-5595-4369-a3e5-3a41328ef787 By the way. I looked at a 1927 edition of the Redwood City newspaper earlier this week. There was not a single national story on the front page. The ENTIRE front page was local news. It a paper publishes the exact same page A1 as every other paper in the area and they are all wire service content, what difference does it make which paper I buy? Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:53:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1266b733-5595-4369-a3e5-3a41328ef787 Geekster 2007-11-17T08:53:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#41041d32-cb21-4702-a56c-e6b3d55e49be I think you're right Geekster. Certainly, the strategies used by papers up till now (at least those I am aware of) have done squat. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:52:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#41041d32-cb21-4702-a56c-e6b3d55e49be Crypto 2007-11-17T08:52:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1614c0d1-de61-4f16-9b78-8247123c5516 Okay before I go to bed ... here is an idea to build a better community. Start a newspaper. Not your average newspaper. But maybe something along the lines of what the strib is doing in Minneapolis. They are becoming intensely local. Now ... imagine a newspaper that didn't carry a SINGLE world news story and maybe only a couple of national stories buried back in the third section. But what if it carried the standings of every single bar dart league, bridge club, chess club, school sports (including the junior varsity down to middle school level) so just about every single family in your neighborhood was either "in the paper" in some way or someone they knew was in the paper. And if they went down to the local pub and played darts or pool, they would be in the paper. People in your town would start buying your paper. Now add in all the school menus and activities from all the schools that get sent home with the kids on those flyers from the teacher ... publish each school's monthly calendar once a month along with the school lunch menu. Now have a special section for household services like gardeners and house cleaners and babysitters and local plumbers and roofers and other local business ... basically a newspaper where if you participate in your community in any way, you are likely to show up in that paper ... and it is useful because it has businesses in there who might not have a website or a yellow pages ad. A very USEFUL, very LOCAL, very PERSONAL newspaper for your neighborhood or town that does NOT focus on reprinting the AP wire. The Star Tribune seems to be making progress in this direction. I think other towns will too. We are going to go from being "one paper" towns to being "multi paper" towns;. The internet isn't killing newspapers. Newspapers are killing newspapers because I can read exactly tthe same content in ANY of them or on the web. To be successful, publish radically local content. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:49:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#1614c0d1-de61-4f16-9b78-8247123c5516 Geekster 2007-11-17T08:49:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#852c8c05-c8a0-4cfe-9d26-0426f633c8ff I think the loss of community goes back to the radical transformation post WWII, the huge mobility, people being asked to uproot their families in order to get the promotion, GIs getting the money to buy a house in the 'burbs and leaving the urban ethnic neighborhoods where they had grown up and perhaps where their grand parents or great grand parents had settled in after quarentine on Ellis Island. Even AC and TV, by bringing people off their front porches in the evening and into the house, had a part in it. The internet is a late comer. I'd sure like to see the end of those out of court settlements with non-disclosure clauses, though. If it is covering up wrong doing, then it allows the wrongs to continue. I am very open about a lot of things, but I definately have secrets I want to keep. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:46:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#852c8c05-c8a0-4cfe-9d26-0426f633c8ff Crypto 2007-11-17T08:46:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#0478a760-5750-4d2d-8398-2b91d1fb003e Oh, and if you work for "Huge MegaCorp" in a small town and fuck someone over, not only does it reflect on Huge MegaCorp, it is also going to reflect on you PERSONALLY and your neighbors will be hearing down at the cafe how you fucked some member of your community over. The way you fix that in society is not with trendy little concepts like this. The way you fix that is to get rid of the anonymity. People need to get out FACE TO FACE and associate more. Hang out at the cafe, hang out at a local pub and play cards or something. Get to know people by their REAL names. That way a "corporation" can't fuck you over because ultimately that corporation is represented by an individual who is a member of your community. The company can't fuck you over without that person fucking you over face to face. If they fuck you over, it reflects on them personally ... so that gives incentive to push back against things that are just plain wrong. In cities people can get away with that because chances are they will never see you again and don't know any of the people you know, etc. The way around all of that is to get back to the community concept. Even the largest city should be made up of many small towns ... neighborhoods. People should hang out. What we have lost is the neighborhood locale. Get off the Internet and go buy a bar and turn it into a place for neighbors to hang out and do more than just get drunk. THAT is how we build a better society ... in my opinion. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:34:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#0478a760-5750-4d2d-8398-2b91d1fb003e Geekster 2007-11-17T08:34:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#982959ed-87a1-4dd1-8f0a-951b35d8c407 "Nonetheless, in essence, it's an excellent concept." No it isn't. It is a completely impractical concept in every possible way. We don't even practice that in our own personal lives because if we did it would be nothing but constant drama. There is no need to tell everything to everyone all the time. Sometimes people just don't have a need to know some things. I don't need to tell my neighbor that I wasn't regular this morning OR that I happened to catch a whiff of their trashcan this morning and didn't like it or that their kids said a bad word or that my daughter thinks her daughter is mean. Sometimes is is better just to shut the fuck up. Sure, when you make is mistake the best thing to do is own up to it and move on. Is that now considered "radical" these days? I think many of these amazing concepts such as personal and corporate responsibility are "new" to people who live in big populated areas with lots of woodwork where people are used to being pretty much anonymous. In 90% of the rest of America where people live in small to medial sized towns, this isn't an issue. Screw people over and pretty much the entire town will know about it within a day or two. People are projecting their own urban ant colony existence and the ethics it breeds on the rest of the population. What you are probably talking about is called being a good neighbor in the majority of the area of the US ... you know ... flyover country. You should try living there sometime ... might hate it though ... no woodwork to hide in. No anonymity, Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:22:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#982959ed-87a1-4dd1-8f0a-951b35d8c407 Geekster 2007-11-17T08:22:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#0f63a78b-6834-443d-b301-63832ffd7ddd Fair enough. Maybe many businesses are jumping on a bandwagon. Nonetheless, in essence, it's an excellent concept. Wouldn't you say that transparency in an intimate relationship is essential in order for it to thrive? Even if it means finding out certain Truths that mean you just can't stay with that person. Isn't it better to know that, than to live a lie? And isn't it better to know the story of your weiner -- er, hotdog, rather than tricking yourself into thinking it's just some cute fun food. Maybe if enough people really knew the details of the sick, pathetic animals that are ground up into their food, along with the chemicals sprayed onto the feed, etc. Then enough people would stop eating the hotdogs and *boom*, a consumer revolution. With Transparency, we begin to look to the Source. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:07:32 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#0f63a78b-6834-443d-b301-63832ffd7ddd Supernova 2007-11-17T08:07:32Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#fc50f7c2-8f78-4553-b144-4f65717743fb I think "radical transparency" is: A: a nice new trendy buzzword thingamajig. and B: a drama generator. There are a lot of things people just don't need to know. Who decides how much transparency is "complete"? Should my package of hot dogs contain a video of the entire life of all the animals included in it? Should that also include the planting of the food they ate? Should that go all the way back to the clearing of the forest that created the field that grew the crop that fed the pig that went into the wiener that Geekster ate? It sounds to me like something out of the Center for the Creation of Trendy Business Differentiation Mechanisms to Get You To Buy Stuff From Me. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:42:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#fc50f7c2-8f78-4553-b144-4f65717743fb Geekster 2007-11-17T07:42:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#4a59fe3e-68f8-471b-bc64-781d43fc5035 An article in last April's WIRED Magazine, about Radical Transparency, the new trend in business to be completely open about all goings-on, even apologizing publicly to wronged customers. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/wired40_ceo.html Now imagine if our government took that approach? All the next President would have to do is sincerely apologize to the world for America's former actions and admit our wrongs. This simple action would shift radically the state of International Affairs. I relate this topic to Burners because with Radical Self (& Community) Reliance comes also Expression and Transparency. Any sign of a mask or false persona is immediately sensed in a place like Black Rock City. You gotta be yourself ... or else you gonna feel real weird! FOR EVERY WORD OF TRUTH SPOKEN, A REALITY IS CHANGED. Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:34:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/85acbbf6-6e01-453f-a6d3-310bcb13bb54#4a59fe3e-68f8-471b-bc64-781d43fc5035 Supernova 2007-11-17T07:34:03Z