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Larry Harvey was interviewed by Time in which he shares five things cities can learn from Burning Man:
burncast.blogspot.com/2009/09...arn.html
burncast.blogspot.com/2009/09...arn.html
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Fri, September 18, 2009 - 12:53 PMSay what you will about the hat, he does think about things. I have a mixed history of positive and negative experiences at Burning Man, but weirdly enough, that interview makes me want to go again. I guess The Hat expresses what Burning Man could be, and I love the potential. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 20, 2009 - 10:40 PMbut most of those thoughts are caffeine fueled borrowings stated by others years before bman. i guess its the position, or the hat that gives legitimacy? dont get me wrong, its great he's done his own research and applies them with observations, especially in a world where those cute little productive little bio-units of world economy have the attention span of commercials.
its mostly not applicable, which normally explains the cloudy mist of optimism that partially obscures a burners reality, but this is more aboutf what some reporter has selectively edited in with thier commentary. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 8:23 PMdid he mention pretentious hypocrisy?
because I think a lot of cities really could learn a few things about striking poses and talking a big game without any real intention toward making a play, here. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 8:47 PMwell its more his and the llc board members afterall - so they should be commended on the promotion, execution, and capitalization of burningman.
what.. people think its a city? ..a municipality? ..or worse.. a community!?
if so, then people have an odd idea of it all. paid membership that allows them to praise and criticize whatever happens and is provided, without accepting any responsibility. partially due to leadership that isnt representative or responsible to its 'citizens.' and whatever else isnt provided, the 'citizens' give willingly with sweat, constructions, and additional funding.
thats a cult, the likes of which scientologists and mormons can only dream of. its definately an achievement to be proud of. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 9:00 PM<thats a cult, the likes of which scientologists and mormons can only dream of. its definately an achievement to be proud of. >
It's true that we put in sweat and money and planning and all kinds of work into this city that is ostensibly "larry's."
We don't actually let him decide what we think, who we fuck, if we have children, how we dress, what we eat, how we spend our Sundays, how much sleep we get or any of the hundreds of other things that real cult leaders do in their creepy attempts to run the lives of their followers.
I get that you don't think much of the llc, nor do you think much of the people who attend. But despite the fact that many of us "waste" time, money, resources, vacations in pursuit of our odd visions that together make up Black Rock City, we are not owned by Larry. It is shallow and disrespectful to the survivors of real cults like People's Temple, or Rajneesh, or the Moonies, or Syanon, or the Mormons or Scientology, or any of the rest of them to trivialize their suffering and their experiences by putting us in the same catagory. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 10:15 PMWhoah whoah whoah; I don't think that particular device is warranted at all. Compounding his poor use of the term 'cult' with strident politicization a la "my uncle died at Auschwitz" is insane, insane, here.
A cult is any group of people gathered around a common concept, personage, or object of mutual interest.
It's the root of the word "culture".
Cults are not bad; they are the natural form of organization for social apes. Cults are far, far less dangerous than corporations, historically. That people fear the word cult is a (stupid) shame, but this fear doesn't prevent anyone from participating in cult behavior.
>>We don't actually let him decide what we think, who we fuck....<<
That's one of the very rarest kinds of cult; actually, far more common is the cult in which the membership collectively establishes and enforced normative models. IOW it's the burners that decide what burners will think, and who mete out the punishments for deviation.
Here's a cool starting point for studying that phenomenon: www.amazon.com/Strange-Go.../0807011096 -
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 8:57 AMfwiw, I'm not the one who brought up mormons and scientology--both of which, I think, point to the narrower usage. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:17 AM> "...both of which, I think, point to the narrower usage."
neither scientology nor mormonism has that much in common with bman, i would think, to warrant an equally narrow sense of an unfair attack.
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 1:41 PM"That's one of the very rarest kinds of cult; actually, far more common is the cult in which the membership collectively establishes and enforced normative models. IOW it's the burners that decide what burners will think, and who mete out the punishments for deviation."
Normative models? Normative within the context of their own collective perceptions perhaps. Let an outsider come in with an idea that challenges such perceptions and the collective goes into attack mode in the same way drones will if you shake the hive a few times. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 6:58 PM<,,,in the same way drones will if you shake the hive...>
Drones don't do much of any work, they sit around waiting for the chance to fertilize the queen. That's regular bees you're talking about.
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Mon, September 28, 2009 - 2:16 AM> " Let an outsider come in with an idea that challenges such perceptions and the collective goes into attack mode in the same way drones will if you shake the hive a few times."
i see the early burn of paul addis as an example. the challenge was physically performed on thier most sacred totem, and the reaction was like the act was a religious sacrilege. since the act was also a violation of law, the community attack reaction was given additional legitimacy and passion. but much of the condemnations were also claims as violations against bman's 'social laws' (community principals).
cries for dragging him behind a dpw truck across the playa, burning him alive, physically sodomizing him... such hatred... definately one of the ugly sides of cultish behaviour.
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Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 4:53 PM>>Normative models? Normative within the context of their own collective perceptions perhaps. Let an outsider come in with an idea that challenges such perceptions and the collective goes into attack mode in the same way drones will if you shake the hive a few times.<<
Yes; precisely (sans 1 slight natural history gaffe but the metaphor is apt nonetheless). That is exactly the kind of cult-ure BM engenders and nourishes.
"Normative within the context of their own collective perceptions" = "Normative" -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Larry Harvey Pokes Dirty Things into his Urethra When He Thinks No One is Looking
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 5:07 PM"LOKI POSTED :Normative within the context of their own collective perceptions" = "Normative"
RESPONSE : No, Lokifreign . There are absolute normative ethical precepts which are not mere attribution and exist a priori . When you going to straighten up and admit it ????
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 12:06 AMno doubt, loki's right. you're the one associating the worst aspects of cult-ure, not me.
because theres quite a few cults i like. and the selfish self-appointed self-rightous cult leader interests me, in the full range from informal social structures to politically legitimized ones. thats maneureving the crests of various power structures that requires an adeptness that would win an open surfing invitational. then theres the cult of personalty aspect and the adorement by the citizens, where the relevance in this case is the lack of foundation of attributes.
... then theres what you espose, the grand aspiration to enable people to and of themselves. guess its simply curious thats rubbing against the grain of the wood used in making the man... a most significant icon of cult rituals.
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 2:12 PMEncountering Larry holding forth in the BEACON's office midweek 2009 was fun.
I quite agree that we have the car problem licked in BRC. Now if we can figure out some green solution for the cops that drove from as far away as fuckin' Elko (!) to root for truffles.
<< because I think a lot of cities really could learn a few things about striking poses and talking a big game without any real intention toward making a play, here. >>
The above well describes the proverbial biz-as-usual at every City Hall ever heard of. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 4:54 PMIf Atlanta's City Hall had burners defending its abuses we could finally get down to some *real*, *full time* nepotism and graft, around here -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:35 AM<< If Atlanta's City Hall had burners defending its abuses >>
When Black Rock City develops its very own Lester Maddox, I fully expect someone to stick a LED-lit axe-handle up his ass.
<< some *real*, *full time* nepotism and graft, around here >>
There are few political parallels with BRC's handful of bike thieves and a small-town bureaucracy out of "The Prisoner" with any place in the South. Interviewing Shooter (among other things) made me realize the ludicrously small, near-bonsai scale of even the political logrolling and bag operations at BRC! It's like a pop-gun parody of the deadly earnest shit going on everywhere else. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:42 AMI think that's a constant danger of volenteer organizations. People don't get paid, so some collect power in other ways. Not that wages are necessarily a cure--we've all worked with people who are simply there for the paycheck.
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 5:49 PMTHE LAMPLIGHTERS KICKASS
fuck all you drama bullshit up there!! punks!!! -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, September 24, 2009 - 12:39 AMriiiiight... because your drive-by shooting comment doest contribute to drama -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, September 24, 2009 - 3:54 AMwhat goes:
clickity clack, clickity clack, clickity clack: BANG!!!!!!
.......
an amish drive by.
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, September 24, 2009 - 9:11 AMI found the emphasis on "our City doesn't have trash cans, everyone's responsible for their own stuff!" kind of amusing. I'm not sure how Cities can learn from Burning Man in this regard...... Burning Man exists as a temporary autonomous zone in which trash is hoarded by each participant and then dumped back in the "real world" after the event. (Much like commerce is front-loaded for the event as people buy everything they need for the week beforehand).
I'm not sure how the trash thing is applicable to other cities. There wasn't any discussion of using LESS, or REusing/recycling. I know it was a short piece, but it still came off pretty silly. Sure, people are responsible for their own stuff and that's awesome, but Burning Man isn't some magical Brigadoon wherein the trash just disappears. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Thu, September 24, 2009 - 10:29 AMit seems more about presentation and how you spin and package it. mr. harvey has developed an exceptional ability with that - he's very good at giving it an elevated prominence. this is a valuable and required trait for the lead board member of a corporation - in that position, its thier role to promote and extend the company's best interests while creating revenue.
that doesnt mean whats said and done is completely true, just true enough to take credit where something may be emergent or required. the trashfence actually had two purposes, not only could it catch the occasional errant debris but more importantly, it established the ability to effectively manage admissions and keep people from attending without buying a ticket. the trashfence does catch some trash, but not all that much, and the debris it doesnt carries too far for anyone to distinguish the trash from other people who venture out on the playa year-round.
but going back further, the 'leave no trace' on the playa isnt a burningman thing, its a blm thing. the federal bureau of land management is in charge of hundreds of square miles spread across many public sites in the united states. they dont have the funding or resources to staff and maintain various public support needs like trashcans, bathrooms, drinkable water... so instead it relies on the people who use it to manage themselves, and on the playa that means you care for your own needs, and clean up after yourself.
since the org was the group that handled the logistics of holding the event, they were the ones interacting with the blm for leasing rights. but there was so much trash being left behind that the blm iasued a couple of threats, then outright banned the org from holding the event unless they accepted full responsiblity for cleaning up after everyone. even then, it was a probationary thing where the org was given another chance, and if they failed that was it. this was the foundation of 'leave no trace' which not suprisingly, isnt a voluntary community initiative its promoted as. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 3:46 PM>this was the foundation of 'leave no trace' which not suprisingly, isnt a voluntary community initiative its promoted as. <
Who gives a f#$ck of about that. The event is still the largest on public land, that like all the others has to adhere to the LNT mandate. It is studied for its ability to do it well. Given that it now takes Disney World over an hour to clean up the trash people leave just when watching a parade (and this was a place you would not spot trash at all once, shows how much the majority of people have changed), the population of BRC does an amazing job with their trash. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 7:24 PM> "...the population of BRC does an amazing job with their trash."
did i say that it isnt?
you definately missed my point
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 2:13 PMNo trash cans is not that strange in other places. Tokyo has very few trash cans, which is additionally surprising when you realize that the Japanese are constantly buying drinks from vending machines -- there is one every 100' or so. They just expect to carry the bottle with them until they find a private trash can, or one of the more remote ones. Some recycling bins are now arriving but they are not for trash. And BRC does have recycle camp. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Sun, September 27, 2009 - 7:00 PMNo trash cans in the Manchester Victoria Station. (And I assume the others as well.) Of course, that's a result of the IRA attack in city center a few years ago. -
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Re: Larry Harvey Shares 5 things Cities Can Learn From Burning Man
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 4:56 PMHmmm. Hmmm.
Hmmmm.
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