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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:03 PMNah, The BLM would kick you out without permits.
Besides, I'm sure there are plenty of other fledgling events that
are just waiting for people to take notice. If and when the event
ceases to exist, something will take its place and people will
gather again and the spirit will forge on. Change is inevitable and to embrace
it is to enbrace life...
In fact, maybe it's time to start exploring other events, come on peeps, tell us what else is out there...
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:49 PMDream:
> Nah, The BLM would kick you out without permits.
Not true.
There are plenty of events on the playa. You don't need to pay any fees - you don't need a permit. You just need to keep your event under a certain size. I don't know off hand, but I think that it might be 25 or 50 people.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 5:32 PMI saw somewhere the # is 15. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 10:41 AMI think the number of people that can be in one camp(outside the perimeter) is 49, but why not make it less than thirty...
Syngerella -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 10:44 AM
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 4:44 PM"In fact, maybe it's time to start exploring other events, come on peeps, tell us what else is out there... "
http:/www.goingnowhere.org
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:36 PMAMEN to that!
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:11 PMI think I will go camping in the Black Rock Desert at the end of every summer no matter what. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:21 PMHere, here!!
I love the desert more than anything else.
I should spend more time with that love, period. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:55 PMsure its a short trip, I venture to the playa throughout the dry parts of the year. For obvious reasons I avoid the playa if its wet.
you are allowed to camp on the playa at any time. no permits required (unless you try to build a city)
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 4:10 PMGood info, if there are limits to camp sizes, and BM did cease to exist, what would be some good alternatives?
Afterall, thousands of people would be looking for something else to do. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 4:47 PMmaybe it would be possible to have many small camps spread out about the playa. Each camp with a populace of say 50, and if you maintain a certain distance between camps (+500m for example), perhaps you could argue that each camp was its own separate entity and event and permits weren't required. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 5:51 PMThat's the forth of juplaya approach. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 6:40 PMYeah, but you have to register your group at www.burningman.com.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 9:51 PMOh... and FYI.
There are already at least two small groups who are planning on camping outside of the fence for 2008. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 11:52 PMThat's pathetic. Literally. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 8:59 AMhahahaha...
I'm not going even if they *don't* cancel it.
Put a fork in me.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 8:31 PMBob:
> That's pathetic. Literally.
That's pretty judgmental of you.
This group is made up of people who have in previous years built the man:
tribes.tribe.net/headstandman
Don't know anything about the guy who started this idea:
tribes.tribe.net/burningarchescamp
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 10:39 AMOther groups have gatherings based on the small camps spread apart model, why not BM? You need no permission from burning man or the BLM, that is PUBLIC land out there. Laws vary as to vehicular presence(I think they have to be a mile away) but having camps outside are legal.
Syngerella
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Unsu...
Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 11:52 AMI'd be out there.
And I'd still be working to keep the playa pristine... One-man point sweeps...
I think it's a good idea to come to the playa off-season a few times and spend a couple days or a fortnight out there /truly/ self-reliant. I know many do, and in my experience those of us that do have more respect for the playa, and treat it like the beautiful and deadly gift it is.
Keeping it beautiful and deadly will keep us there. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 3:38 AMNice post, Z.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 7:33 AMno, but the Rainbows probably would -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:32 AMIsn't there a one mile buffer zone outside the fence you aren't allowed in once the event starts? I know Gate and Perimeter patrol it and I think BLM does too.. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 12:48 PMBurning Man isn't necessarily about location. Although many of us are attached to BRC, it doesn't mean that the spirit of Burning Man can't go on at other locations. Look at Earthdance, for example, this is a worldwide event where several large-scale and private events happen. To be honest, it would be kind of exciting to see Burning Man ascend to that level and still remain true to it's nature. We have to remember what Burning Man symbolizes and represents rather than the physical aspects of it. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:32 PMI've heard about Earthdance, sounds very cool.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:43 PM
>We have to remember what Burning Man symbolizes and represents
Just what *does* Burningman represent and what *does* it symbolize?
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:10 PM<<<Isn't there a one mile buffer zone outside the fence you aren't allowed in once the event starts?>>>
what if I camp outside, and have a ticket though? I can't spend the week a mille from 1000s of my friends and not go say hi :) -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:45 PMBobzilla:
> www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca...endices.pdf
Actually, you can camp within 50 yards of the trash fence, to the north and east of the event, if you're not creating dust.
From the BLM:
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SPECIAL RECREATION PERMIT STIPULATIONS BURNING MAN 2006-2010
Possession of Firearms within perimeter fence.
Discharge of Firearms within 2 miles of the perimeter fence.
Camping and Motorized Vehicles Creating Dust within one-mile of the perimeter fence.
Operation of Motor Vehicles prohibited within the event except as provided for in Stipulation 36.
Closed to all public uses within a designated area (to be defined in the yearly closure orders) west and south of the perimeter fence encompassing the airport, entrance road, and ticket area.
Possession of Fireworks prohibited within the perimeter fence.
Aircraft Landing (except by participants on the strip) within 2 miles of the perimeter fence.
Closed to motorized vehicles and camping within a 50 yard buffer outside the perimeter fence.
Unauthorized camping within the perimeter fence
www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca...endices.pdf
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CTP:
> what if I camp outside, and have a ticket though? I can't spend the week a mille from 1000s of my friends and not go say hi :)
According to the BLM permit, you can camp within 50 yards if you're not creating dust.
I wouldn't be surprised if the BMORG or their apologists give you disinformation to try to scare you out of doing such things, but here is what the website has to say about the topic:
"Hiking in or through the closure zone is highly discouraged. Those on foot in this area should be prepared to show a ticket stub or risk deportation to the front gate for payment."
So, don't let them scare you, and just show your ticket.
www.burningman.com/preparat...ment.html
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:45 PM
>what if I camp outside, and have a ticket though?
That's not an option available to you. Never will be.
Not unless you choose to camp beyond the buffer zone and the exclusion area around the event. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 9:39 PMBadger:
> > what if I camp outside, and have a ticket though?
> That's not an option available to you. Never will be.
The BLM and burningman.com seem to disagree with you.
According to the BLM, you can camp within 50 yards of the trash fence so long as you're not kicking up dust.
And according to burningman.com, it's only "strongly discouraged" for ticket holders to walk through the closure zone.
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:42 PM>Isn't there a one mile buffer zone outside the fence you aren't allowed in once the event starts? I know Gate and Perimeter patrol it and I think BLM does too..
O know it isn't one mile but there is in fact a buffer zone. I *believe* it may be something like 50-100 yards on all sides of the fence excluding the airport landing strip and the plane parking area. -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 2:03 PMAnyone want to go in on T-shirts that say "Apologist" ? Sassy, evocative, goes from office to evening with just a few accessories. It's so rare I get accused of being anything so . . . Cold War-esque. I'm kinda digging it . . . maybe we could even kick it up a notch to "Collaborationist" or "Fellow Traveler." -
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Re: If Burninman were cancelled
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:38 PM? over my head. -
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Dispersed camping on the playa
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 7:49 AMThere is no set number of people-per-camp which triggers a permit requirement from the BLM. It is at the manager's discretion if they deem a gathering to be potentially destructive to resources in the National Recreation Area. Also, they take into account whether the gathering is for a commercial purpose, or whether it has been organized.
The North American Eagle land speed folks only had 30 people or so in their group, not including film crews and looky loos, and they were required to have a permit in the "fee demo" model of $4 per person per day. Of course, they also had a converted F-104 jet car with sponsorship logos plastered all over it, and were conducting a potentially dangerous activity.
Here's the map of the closure area from last year: blackrockdesert.org/maps/200...e_Map.gif
It seems larger than the 50 yards someone has suggested.
The Fourth of July activities on the playa have taken on the vernacular "Fourth of Juplaya" moniker, and last time this was enough for the BLM to start looking at it as an organized event, regardless of how far apart camps were placed. They were also looking at the internet for signs of "planning." They nade noises about enforcement, but ultimately there was no drama, and people just did what they did.
The BLM has a responsibility to protect the resources of the NCA and, like it or not, has default liability for the safety of citizens who visit. They will continue to try to collect fees from significant activities on the playa to fund their administrative costs. Their funding has gone down every year throughout the history of their existence. Burning Man is a significant part of their budget, though most of that income pays for the administration of the event itself.
In my opinion, an en masse occupation of the playa without coordination would be a huge disaster.
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Good morning
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 7:57 AMNo, not "National Recreation Area," it is a "National Conservation Area." That's kinda the point. There are people who would throw coffee in my face for that error.
Also, it is the NCA staff (National Landscape Conservation System generally) whose appropriations have been systematically eviscerated. This is being debated on the floor of the Senate today. www.ourconservationlegacy.org/new...tter -
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Another NLCS link
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:00 AM -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Oh
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:09 AMAnd I'm probably wrong about the Senate debate on that bill, too. I saw something on CSPAN about public lands-- must've been something else. -
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It's HR1483, in the House
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:18 AM"To amend the Omnibus Parks and Public Lands Management Act of 1996 to extend the authorization for certain national heritage areas, and for other purposes."
www.theorator.com/bills110/...r1483.html
Back to your regularly scheduled "If Burning Man were cancelled" conversation.
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Re: Dispersed camping on the playa
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 9:48 AM<. Their funding has gone down every year throughout the history of their existence. >
Oksy, i'm confused. They were formed as an agenvy in the depression* they really can't have less money than in the thirties.
*www.access.gpo.gov/blm/pls9...tory.html -
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Re: Dispersed camping on the playa
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 9:49 AMOkay, autocorrected. Sorry.
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Re: Dispersed camping on the playa
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:21 PMMetric:
> Here's the map of the closure area from last year:
Thanks for the info.
That seems to be the best source yet of info about what is closed and what is not.
To the South East and East, the closure zone is not much beyond the trash fence, but probably a bit more than 50 yards.
> In my opinion, an en masse occupation of the playa without coordination would be a huge disaster.
Probably true, but it would be depend on to what extent the people were willing to be truly "radically self-reliant", and how much they believed in "leave no trace".
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