Tribe.net. Local Connections Phoenix http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fc33bfe4-4f32-4a41-9890-55e6724d35e0 2008-07-14T15:07:52Z 2008-07-14T15:07:52Z

thanks, Ickybob..I did find the discussion to be more thorough there. I posted an expanded/shifted version of my comments above, after reading the 189 comments last night. It only took several hours, not days, to read. Looks like the thread is winding down, so I'm not sure if it will show up.

Phoenix 2008-07-14T15:07:52Z Icky Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e25687ec-5dbf-4eb7-b86e-97595d79bfd2 2008-07-13T00:21:31Z 2008-07-13T00:21:31Z

Take a few days & read the post & comments over on squid: http://laughingsquid.com/paul-addis-pleads-guilty-to-burning-man-2007-arson-charges/

Icky Bob 2008-07-13T00:21:31Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8efbea1a-b44a-4b33-a4a9-0eb38c182df5 2008-07-12T23:30:37Z 2008-07-12T23:30:37Z

He is being housed here : http://www.doc.nv.gov/nncc/nncc.php

Bobzilla 2008-07-12T23:30:37Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#2f2af3ce-e334-4123-ab78-5c754fce92d6 2008-07-12T23:24:28Z 2008-07-12T23:24:28Z

According to this he must do 12 months before he can be considered for parole. That 12 months can not be reduced by good behavior.

Bobzilla 2008-07-12T23:24:28Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6c5847e8-22e2-4f03-b041-e4ac64d62263 2008-07-12T23:22:14Z 2008-07-12T23:22:14Z

Paul is in the system. Check out his aliases. http://www.doc.nv.gov/notis/detail.php?offender_id=1021703

Bobzilla 2008-07-12T23:22:14Z dirty sanchez http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#59c17261-a6a1-42e2-b43b-172aa89e938a 2008-07-12T07:53:04Z 2008-07-12T07:53:04Z

i second that remark

dirty sanchez 2008-07-12T07:53:04Z Phoenix http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#21b0891c-e717-4231-b869-20eaa837a939 2008-07-11T23:07:26Z 2008-07-11T23:07:26Z

(Wow, I had to rejoin after being away for years, just to post.) Burning Man, Inc. shall be taken seriously, whatever the cost in human life. They've got CLOUT. Be afraid, be very afraid! --is that the message they send nowadays? Glad I went in 1996 before it was such an "important organization". But it was always dangerous. Enter at your own risk! Close to my lone tent outpost that I preferred, near Gateway and CCC, people sleeping in their tents got run over & burned when a driver fell asleep in the middle of the night. (Back in the days when anyone could -and did -drive anywhere). Borderline chaos is not freedom, it was discovered. On the other hand, What Paul Addis did was outrageous and wrong. Thankfully no one was hurt or killed. But the fact that Paul did not plead insanity is proof that, to some extent, he is crazy. I don't know him. Was he an innocent, fun-loving "crazy artist"? I didn't get that impression. As for art, most of us who ever made art in our life have had it stolen, plagiarized, damaged or destroyed at some point. No, it is not fair, it sucks. Nor was he any longer a practicing attorney, as he let his license expire in 2005. However, even in counterculture community, there has to be a limit on acceptance of aberrant behavior. Yet his aberrant behavior is exactly what makes him especially vulnerable in prison, as mentioned. He didn't stop to think about the repercussions of his actions -not the impact on others, or on his own life. Yet he does not regret his actions. So he really has my compassion, because he is clearly on the fringe. Let's not call him an arsonist, he was prosecuted for "malicious destruction of property". Let's just say that he has a fascination with fire. I can relate. But I only burn my own art, my own writing my own prayers and intentions at my own altar. What do I know? I'm no shrink. While prayers of protection go out to Paul Addis, and Blessings to Chicken John for being his gutsy self and having compassion, it is simply too late to re-write history or negotiate the win-win solution that would have kept him safer, one that BM, Inc. was not interested in anyway. Yes, perhaps I am a New-Agey idealist, but I think at this point his friends would find that their time and energy would be better spent finding a way to get him private psych help and convincing BM, Inc. not to appeal his request for parole, when and if the time comes...if he survives that long.

Phoenix 2008-07-11T23:07:26Z bedouin http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#48eea7ac-e3c4-49a1-93b6-19d03e6ea866 2008-07-06T22:43:28Z 2008-07-06T22:43:28Z

"We would be wise to stick together." THAT, chicken jon, iz thee UNDERSTATEMINT OV THEE MILLINEA...... SIRIUSly

bedouin 2008-07-06T22:43:28Z bedouin http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6bba8d7a-3c6e-4cae-89bc-9781e1f94e48 2008-07-06T22:40:16Z 2008-07-06T22:40:16Z

U TELL'EM CHICKEN JOHN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "We are in this together. All of us." we keep stating this yet know ones listening.......2 stuck N their programmed opinionated B leaf systems.....hue man hubris 2 thee fullest X tent " Yea, you may not like one or 2 and maybe you’re feeling like you can pick and chose who you love and who you don’t but that’s an illusion." BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh we're gonna sea thee light ov day after all methinx... what a long ass day scents 1985 ;;>))) and sted E az we grow mate sted E az we grow

bedouin 2008-07-06T22:40:16Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#18117c79-bdc4-478c-a6e7-8ad9336562cb 2008-07-03T16:15:01Z 2008-07-03T16:15:01Z

Loki hits a homer: "BM isn't worth this much BS. Salut to Mr. Addis; the best of art has always stood a very high chance of landing folks in jail, and it probably always will. "Mew mew mew". Buncha boojies squalling because Hot Topic got torched. Nyah, hah, and Amen. VERDICT: Burning Man is now officially Establishment. Enjoy. Your BM lifestyle is a slap in the face to every other human being on earth - a wasteful and prideful corporate resort that tyrannizes the culture it has plagiarized."

Chicken 2008-07-03T16:15:01Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#74952f02-313f-4620-9f14-8e6979c0aebd 2008-07-03T04:39:11Z 2008-07-03T04:39:11Z

<I bow before you Dana....>

Badger 2008-07-03T04:39:11Z Blenderhead http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#71372890-5f2c-469f-8992-c39c2163c219 2008-07-03T00:41:18Z 2008-07-03T00:41:18Z

If any of you bleeding-heart-Addis-defending-hippie-assholes feel the need to support him, you can send me funds to help me pay the costs for food, litter and vet bills for me taking care of his cat while he's in prison. Should I have a fundraiser? Otherwise, keep on wanking yourselves. Jesus. WTF is wrong with you people? Dipshits.

Blenderhead 2008-07-03T00:41:18Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ae9506c9-5af8-464f-9b85-84a511949464 2008-07-03T00:11:59Z 2008-07-03T00:11:59Z

"I've been thinking Clarence...I know the English Common Law -- the system of laws that predates this country and is the basis for our laws -- sought to fully protect property rights. But what the hell: Why not let everyone burn each other's shit, as long as they call it 'art'?" Uh-huh. You can masturbate all night long to thought of prosecution-free vandalism, but that ain't gonna make it even remotely closer to becoming a reality. There's no precedent that murder's not a crime on the third Tuesdays in months with three vowels, but that doesn't mean people are going to start kicking around that idea either. It doesn't matter if it was "political speech" or "art" or a "protest" or whatever label you want to attach to it. It wasn't Paul's man to burn, and that concept is so completely engrained in our legal system. Your wishful thinking notwithstanding.

Weazie 2008-07-03T00:11:59Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1a770b24-75e6-412e-8e29-9723a055fb91 2008-07-03T00:05:19Z 2008-07-03T00:05:19Z

hmm... Lodi you're on par with Hillary Clinton for shrillness.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-07-03T00:05:19Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#740d9b38-6809-4432-984c-e0b506c69c7f 2008-07-02T23:50:47Z 2008-07-02T23:46:48Z

Hun, that there may be no precedent is more reason that the court should look at a question of free speech when it is asked of them so that they can set the precedent. Are you the gatekeeper who decides what the Supreme Court will or will not consider in any given session? I suspect that answer is a very clean "no". However, if you are interested in precedent, I suggest you go over the actions and activities of the LLC since their incorporation, and Burning Man participants before the event was turned into a business. Perhaps then you will grok why an act of "vandalism" towards a business can also be "political speech" for a community. I wonder which direction they are headed in now that we know all their good vibe/compassionate community/ self-reliance hippie babble was just hot desert air. Has the precedence been set?

margaret 2008-07-02T23:46:48Z Dana http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#96427a7f-79fc-4a0a-9494-cb1f63510fd9 2008-07-02T21:48:53Z 2008-07-02T21:48:53Z

I could be confused on this, but i would assume that if, say, Paul weren't in this situation and instead were still doing shows and, say, he had a house in Nevada and someone burnt it down that neither of the following situations would negate the fact that the house was worth more than $5k when it comes to the determination of whether it was a felony: a) if someone or a bunch of people chipped in to pay for a new house b) if, due to the media attention, he was able to book a hundred times as many shows and that paid for a new house I'm even wondering how much it would necessarily affect restitution, although i'm assuming it could. (Depending on the Judge, etc.) --- I'm also assuming that, if the LLC had gone up and said "it cost about $4900 to build the Man", few folks would believe that and then there could also be perjury charges to take up the court's time. I get that the LLC could've said "eh. it was no big deal to rebuild, we don't need the money back" to both lessen the importance and the restitution. but that's different than committing perjury on the stand. ---- and, yeah, not "arson", "Injury to Property" The only thing i see of which is : NRS 206.310 Injury to other property. Every person who shall willfully or maliciously destroy or injure any real or personal property of another, for the destruction or injury of which no special punishment is otherwise specially prescribed, shall be guilty of a public offense proportionate to the value of the property affected or the loss resulting from such offense. --- I think ActionGirl said it best with "Grace said, 'It's never a satisfactory conclusion when an individual is incarcerated.'" (Reno Gazette Journal)

Dana 2008-07-02T21:48:53Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0107d5be-bdc6-45af-9ae9-ac74e28563bf 2008-07-02T21:48:13Z 2008-07-02T21:48:02Z

a mere love tap when compared to being, for instance, on the Board of Directors of an oil company. Hyperbolize much?

Crypto 2008-07-02T21:48:02Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#97310c44-c7b4-4443-bd0f-f59f72f179f4 2008-07-02T21:38:52Z 2008-07-02T21:38:52Z

To further clarify: The burden of proof was on the DA. And the trier of fact (in this case, the judge) found -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- damages in excess of $5000. And Paul may appeal that finding. (When I started the thread, the conviction was first announced as arson. Tribe doesn't allow the thread owner to edit titles.)

Weazie 2008-07-02T21:38:52Z Lokifreign http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#c7641e7d-0911-4aa1-b925-84d52c6e808e 2008-07-02T21:31:28Z 2008-07-02T21:31:28Z

BM isn't worth this much BS. Salut to Mr. Addis; the best of art has always stood a very high chance of landing folks in jail, and it probably always will. "Mew mew mew". Buncha boojies squalling because Hot Topic got torched. Nyah, hah, and Amen. VERDICT: Burning Man is now officially Establishment. Enjoy. Your BM lifestyle is a slap in the face to every other human being on earth - a wasteful and prideful corporate resort that tyrannizes the culture it has plagiarized.

Lokifreign 2008-07-02T21:31:28Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b21f10cf-6483-479d-b6cb-b177e1f70994 2008-07-02T21:24:22Z 2008-07-02T21:24:22Z

<Calif. man gets prison for burning Burning Man 4 days ago RENO, Nev. (AP) — A San Francisco performance artist was sentenced Friday to as many as four years in prison and ordered to pay restitution for the early torching last summer of the signature effigy of the counterculture Burning Man festival. Paul Addis pleaded guilty in May to one felony count of injury to property stemming from the burning of the 40-foot icon on Aug. 28 — four days earlier than planned. He was ordered to pay $30,000 in restitution. Addis, 35, was taken into custody after a hearing this week in Pershing County District Court in Lovelock. Burning Man organizers rebuilt the effigy in time for it to go up in flames in the ceremonial climax of the annual weekend festival in the northern Nevada desert. Addis has pleaded not guilty to two felony counts related to an alleged October arson attempt at San Francisco's historic Grace Cathedral. He was out on bail in the Burning Man case when police say he was found with an ammunition belt of small explosives outside the Episcopal church. Burning Man, an eclectic art, music and performance festival that draws more than 40,000 people, began in 1986 at San Francisco's Baker Beach and was moved to the Black Rock Desert in 1990. > http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jli7iZcOKKbjqgguVt0assXYeftwD91IOT9O0 So, it looks like injury to property, not arson.

Crypto 2008-07-02T21:24:22Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#24bc43d2-847c-4501-af26-6cd00e8e540f 2008-07-02T21:20:44Z 2008-07-02T21:20:34Z

<In other post-2007 news, we’ve heard a report from Pershing County, where Paul Addis’s restitution hearing and sentencing were held yesterday afternoon. Addis recently pled guilty to charges related to setting fire to the Burning Man figure days early at last year’s event. At yesterday’s hearing, the judge found evidence beyond a reasonable doubt showing the damages were in excess of $5,000 and thus Addis was convicted of a felony arson charge. After hearing Addis speak on his own behalf, the judge sentenced him to 12-48 months in prison and ordered him to pay $25,000 in restitution. (EDITOR’S NOTE: the preceding paragraph has been updated to add corrected information on the exact charge to which Mr. Addis pleaded.)> (this is from the orgblog)

Crypto 2008-07-02T21:20:34Z mike/gomonk+ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7d16e97d-9228-4cd6-b918-bcb03537eca0 2008-07-02T20:57:25Z 2008-07-02T20:57:25Z

just wanted to make a clarification here related to the subject matter of this thread: as far as i know, paul was not convicted of arson. that would be an automatic felony in the state of nevada. paul was charged with "destruction of property" -- under $5000 is a misdemeanor. over = felony. the burden of proof was put on the bm-org to provide proof of the amount of damages. i know it's a fine point, just wanted to clarify. . . .

mike/gomonk+ 2008-07-02T20:57:25Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#75be8c3a-8ed5-4d54-bf58-a2b2bef4c05d 2008-07-02T18:31:09Z 2008-07-02T18:31:09Z

Your opinion on the LLC, its actions and reactions, are yours. Enjoy. But your "opinion" that that SCOTUS (let alone *this* SCOTUS) might somehow rule that there's a constitutionally protected right to commit vandalism as a form of expressive conduct is so mind-blowingly wrong, as there's *NO* legal precedent to support that position. Really, it is more likely that the nine justices will perform an all-nude revue of "The Sound of Music" before them ruling that Paul's actions were protected by the First Amendment. But that's just my opinion of your "opinion."

Weazie 2008-07-02T18:31:09Z spyral http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#db8ba254-ebd1-4b69-8324-e5c01f7387a4 2008-07-02T16:11:22Z 2008-07-02T16:11:22Z

The LLC didn't send Paul to prison. The State of Nevada did. Aren't you guys sick of this subject?

spyral 2008-07-02T16:11:22Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#c660bcd5-a4ca-4f24-8f84-3ccb5e99d490 2008-07-02T16:00:05Z 2008-07-02T16:00:05Z

Geesh is right Weazie. Like I said before we can play SCOTUS mind reading *games* all day long, but it is useless and boring after a point that we have long passed. SCOTUS rules on cases that are not clear cut. Since Paul likely considered this political speech, then it actually is a question of his 1st Amendment rights. How *they* would rule would be interesting. How you would rule is meaningless. Besides, I'd much rather reiterate how despicable I think the LLC is for sending their friend and colleague to prison for 1-4 YEARS on allegedly bloated receipts--if witnesses at the trial are accurately relaying that information. A man who's mental condition these cats know better than you do. You may think $33K is a reasonable amount to rebuild the effigy. I do not. They could have set it up so that he would not be in prison, and since the courts in SF ordered him to get counseling that's what he would be doing at this very moment. That would have been great PR for the LLC and been an equal if not more effective deterrent for copy cats. So what was the point of being dicks? My gut feeling is that they are setting the party up for a new phase. I watched it happen before when they created the LLC in order to deal with the "real world". Everytime they bring more of the real world into the mix, they end up with more money.

margaret 2008-07-02T16:00:05Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#330ec11d-dc04-411e-868f-efca5bfec294 2008-07-02T03:06:13Z 2008-07-02T03:06:13Z

As Johnson was *never* charged how the flag came into his possession, SCOTUS *never* ruled you have a constitutional right to steal flags for the purposes of burning them. SCOTUS held the act of *burning* a flag can't a crime; the whole flag-theft issue was *not* before it. No court *ever* given the green light to destroying (or even stealing) someone else's property in the name of constitutionally expressive conduct. Please find where *any* court *ever* has affirmatively authorized the theft of flags. Hell, please find *any* case that says Johnson says you can steal flags. And O'Brien *upheld* the federal law making it a crime to destroy a draft card -- including your own card. Geesh. And if, magically, somehow Paul's case got before this SCOTUS now (you know, the one with Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito on it), they would still uphold that the Man belonged to the Org, and Paul had no right to burn what wasn't his. Because no one needs SCOTUS to say vandalism isn't constitutionally protected expressive conduct, as the *only* one saying it is protected conduct appears to be, well, you.

Weazie 2008-07-02T03:06:13Z Cook bacon naked! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#dc749863-7464-4adb-87dd-3ae711d3ad8c 2008-07-02T01:37:35Z 2008-07-02T01:37:35Z

"... Hey, I didn't get a Harumph outta' that guy"!

Cook bacon naked! 2008-07-02T01:37:35Z Sierra http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7090d626-7df2-484b-b495-28b8f88d5e3e 2008-07-02T00:39:14Z 2008-07-02T00:39:14Z

If the rumors and news threads are true BM heads hunchos wanted revenge not justice.

Sierra 2008-07-02T00:39:14Z Sierra http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b71205b2-779d-4e35-b469-923b9448afc9 2008-07-02T00:38:17Z 2008-07-02T00:38:17Z

I agree... he is not a hero. Anyone who deals with fire (professional fire performers AND hobbyists) know that the number one rule to fire is safety and preparation. If you do not like the direction BM is headed, don't go. Don't support the festival; don't go to the fundraisers and start a local festival utilizing the principals you believe BM has lost. It really is that simple.

Sierra 2008-07-02T00:38:17Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#4ffa5fd6-7660-4783-b142-45c44c6df60e 2008-07-02T00:26:27Z 2008-07-02T00:26:27Z

There is no question that Johnson received stolen property: "He did, however, accept an American flag handed to him by a fellow protestor who had taken it from a flagpole outside one of the targeted buildings." It's right in there. If Johnson wasn't arrested at the time for theft, it is probably because the provenance of the flag was unknown at the time of the arrest. That he wasn't charged later could be that it would be hard to prove that he knowingly received stolen property. You'd have to ask Texas why they didn't want to spend the money pursuing it. In O'Brien, a *different* court, two decades earlier in the middle of a war, decided that your freedom of speech isn't abridged by arson laws. That is why O'Brien is a better ruling for you to base your argument on than over-extending yourself as to why Johnson can steal something and burn it, but Paul cannot. You have a different court now and they could go either way if they accept that Burning Man is a partly a community and that this was an act political in nature. Or they could call a spade a spade and say the Burning Man is just another business and vandalism towards its property does not rise to the level of symbolic political speech. That's why I find the idea of it going before the Court to be very interesting, not because I think it will be a magic ticket out of jail for Paul. But I think the LLC answered that question for them and for us. We can dick around all day playing SCOTUS mind reading games or counting up how many of the imaginary people Paul killed can fit on a pinhead, but one thing remains very clear after this hearing: The LLC are a business. A business that thrives on hippie feel-good rhetoric but showed no compassion to a person whom they all know very well. A business that lost out on reams of good publicity in order to ensure that a man many people believe to be mentally ill goes to prison for burning a woodpile. While I think their decision was inhuman and contemptible, I am not so sure that this is a royal fuck-up for them. They previously used the "govt made me do it" card to make BM less fun and more profitable. This might just be the precursor to a whole new BM.

margaret 2008-07-02T00:26:27Z Jhal http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#db2fb2ba-6007-468c-8b3a-2af617780ffe 2008-07-01T23:00:05Z 2008-07-01T23:00:05Z

Lack of acceptance creates ignorance and anger. Lack of vision, even it is accepting anther's, creates blind spots in reality. Like a really deep pot hole with sharp edges, it really sucks when you hit those. Think about what you stand for, then REALLY look at what others stand for. Then try not to leave any pot holes in their reality just because you are blind to what they see. Asking people who are against BM to leave it alone would be like asking a child to stop sucking their thumb. Let the ego go, shut the soul up, tell the mind to go take a hike....then ask yourself if creating a repetitive string of "fuck you".."no, fuck you"..."no, fuck YOU!"...and so on is even worth the effort it takes to type the words. And above all, take a lesson from the Man,....grow up, accept change ( even if you don't like it ) and quit your bitchen! Now back to the original thread. If there was even a FRACTION ( 1 / 1793569235.230340 ) of the attention placed onto the far worse offenses ( rapist's, thieves, and frat boys ) then this petty arson, then those issues would be sooooo in the spot light now that criminals would be scared shitless to come to BM again for fear of being lynched ( rapists should be lynched in a particularly outrageous and painful fashion ) The man burned 4 times for me last year...oh..WOW!!...whoopty fucking do. While everyone was screaming bloody murder, the real damage was being done to an innocent 14 year old girl by some drunk lecher. WAKE UP PEOPLE AND PUT YOUR ATTENTION WHERE IT MATTERS! This world ( and the little piece of it called BM ) is only going to change if we have the balls ( scuse me ladies ) to look at what is REALLY wrong, and fix it. So Britney Spears is a psyco, great...How about the fact that 5 year old child was crushed by a tank and then eaten by dogs because we were too busy watching news about Britney to help. So the man was burned early,..great..how about the fact that there was a person walking around selling bad drugs that put over 100 people in the hospital and 12 people in their grave got away with it without even an investigation?...Hmmm?...Let see what snappy come backs you people have to that. Come on, I know there are those out there that just want to pick a fight.

Jhal 2008-07-01T23:00:05Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#3ec7f667-7a58-4ce8-bf6f-cfa75e03fcd6 2008-07-01T21:13:15Z 2008-07-01T21:13:15Z

Juicy-- Thanks for report. For the charges to be a felony, it had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there were at least $5000 in damages. To award restitution (and set an amount for restitution), that had be proven only by a preponderence of the evidence. So I think the judge was sticking in the "beyond a reasonable doubt" part to make clear for the record that threshold damages for the felony conviction were proven. But if the judge didn't (or misspoke), there could an issue on appeal there. And the DA and Paul could have stipulated to a damage amount. So it would have been possible for the case to be disposed of as a misdemeanor, if the DA wanted that to go along with that. Whether is was the Org, the DA, or both that was pushing for a felony conviction, I don't know.

Weazie 2008-07-01T21:13:15Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#91243e0a-cfd7-440b-ba9c-33001ad939fd 2008-07-01T20:59:24Z 2008-07-01T20:59:24Z

Tiny URL for the case: http://tinyurl.com/5dlbc4

Weazie 2008-07-01T20:59:24Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#72ebb95f-8aeb-4663-a9ea-84ba54f8608b 2008-07-01T20:58:03Z 2008-07-01T20:58:03Z

You can appeal a guilty plea, but only on very limited grounds (like your plea wasn't voluntary). But Paul didn't just plead guilty; there was also damages hearing. So he should be able to appeal both the restitution amount, and whether the DA actually proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was at least $5000 in damages. Here's a somewhat similar case that raised issues I could see Paul raising on his appeal: http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:PMO3PoXe6JAJ:caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl%3Fcourt%3Dnv%26vol%3D116NvAdvOpNo37%26invol%3D2+joseph+daniel+Romero+state&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Weazie 2008-07-01T20:58:03Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#13f77d80-49e3-4636-8456-c1ecccb1d973 2008-07-01T17:57:51Z 2008-07-01T17:57:51Z

Johnson was charged with neither theft nor receiving stolen property (the flag in question). So to read that case to say that you can steal flags as long as you burn them would requires some, ummmm, highly selective reading. If you seriously think Johnson gives you a free pass to steal flags from police stations and then burn them, please go ahead, and let us know how that worked out for you. And the breach in question is the *fire*, not the firetrucks. O'Brien involved burning of a draft card; even less of a breach. But there too SCOTUS agreed that the state can place reasonable time/place/manner restrictions on expressive conduct. Like...say...not burning someone's property and then calling it a statement. Otherwise, you could torch a lot full of hummers call it a "protest." (Oh wait: That did happen, and they got totally nailed for it.)

Weazie 2008-07-01T17:57:51Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a2fef4d4-b705-4cd8-8eb0-243d50e16a07 2008-07-01T15:52:29Z 2008-07-01T15:52:29Z

> drive by shooting range...... Where've you been? It's a drive-by habitat restoration site now. Which would never happen if John Law or Chicken or Addis were in charge. Leave Burning Man alone.

Bob 2008-07-01T15:52:29Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#411d0e14-6be8-48da-851e-0e9cbabdf1bf 2008-07-01T15:35:45Z 2008-07-01T15:35:45Z

> I'm only repeating what I've heard Yeah, there's a lot of that going around. Yeah, there's a lot of that going around.

Bob 2008-07-01T15:35:45Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f7d2442d-4598-4e3f-8034-ab9f182ecf34 2008-07-01T15:23:52Z 2008-07-01T15:23:52Z

The flag in Texas was stolen, Weazie. And if the fire trucks happened to not be there and the fire burned out on its own, it wouldn't have been a similar "breach" of the peace. You would have made a better argument bringing up US v O'Brien as was brought up in the Johnson case, btw.

margaret 2008-07-01T15:23:52Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#abc26196-8344-4f51-b8ed-dc180cac7ec3 2008-07-01T11:14:52Z 2008-07-01T11:14:52Z

i did. so if you want something personal, do it privately.

spectabilis 2008-07-01T11:14:52Z cabiria http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#9963499b-cd40-4e8a-8c50-ca2a23ffc416 2008-07-01T07:53:14Z 2008-07-01T07:53:14Z

>!< Dodger>!< I know what I wrote.

cabiria 2008-07-01T07:53:14Z Cook bacon naked! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a53ba4ab-87b5-4d04-aef8-1f2fd3b5d49b 2008-07-01T07:44:10Z 2008-07-01T07:44:10Z

ahhhhh, to go back to the days of the drive by shooting range......

Cook bacon naked! 2008-07-01T07:44:10Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b437d060-7048-4eed-8619-e4066408d397 2008-07-01T05:16:50Z 2008-07-01T05:16:50Z

Chicken, you didn't used to be such an asshole. Why can't you leave Burning Man to those who still love it? What's wrong justifying your love by protecting what you love from people who hate?

Bob 2008-07-01T05:16:50Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#48265134-7090-425e-8692-7cfd557dc624 2008-07-01T04:20:18Z 2008-07-01T04:20:18Z

"I think I have a unique perspective on what really went down: " Well. Crude Awakening was just one of probably a thousand sources for the wood. I cited it becusse of the sheer size of the thing. And it is FIRMLY in my opinion that a cobbled together man (and no jail sentence) not only was the right thing to do, but the correct thing for a Showman to do, the correct thing for a compasionite person to do, the correct thing for someone who is a radical to do, the correct thing for the leadership of an alterative community to do and lastly: the correct thing to do because it would be the most fun. This is my position. I respect yours. Understand it, respect it. And don't agree with it. It is FIRMLY my beleif that the leadership of the event has failed us consistantly for years. But that's OK, they were just learning and warming up... nope. The failed us for years because they kinda suck. They don't even completly suck. It's kinda like a luke warm... boring kinda suck. We deserve leaders who totally suck. Who are complete shitheads. This halfway thing has gotta stop. Either suck or be great. The legacy of the BM LLC will be that they couldn't take a joke. There is an army assembling right now to make sure of just that...

Chicken 2008-07-01T04:20:18Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#85442148-5eef-4028-81fa-f3dc2e8f6e47 2008-07-01T04:11:59Z 2008-07-01T04:11:59Z

>"Blessed be." Shut up hippie.

Badger 2008-07-01T04:11:59Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#09dc5b11-d0f8-4cac-b5fb-d392dab2bbf1 2008-07-01T04:06:17Z 2008-07-01T04:06:17Z

"I think the end result is the same. It's the tragic story of a misguided burner who made bad decisions." True, the results are the same. But we are hearing a ralling cry. Some people here are outrage. Quite literally, raging. Out here, in public. It will cause people to do things. Fun things. More pranks, perhaps. People forget that a long, long time ago... the BM people divided into 2 groups: Friends of Larry and Friends of Smiley. The pranksters and the beleivers. Blessed be.

Chicken 2008-07-01T04:06:17Z Juicy Sanchez http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7e56160d-505f-4f06-baab-821bcb3f5ed7 2008-07-01T03:11:10Z 2008-07-01T03:11:10Z

I *do* remember those signs, and I still have them! They say "We'll burn him" "on a weekday!" http://flickr.com/photos/ladybee/1518021435/ In fact, the next one said: "And just invite our friends!" Sadly, Paul didn't invite anyone to his burn. So, no, I don't think he was following orders. I heard him with my own ears when he told the judge that it was "a one-time prank." Then, he had to explain why he was charged with attempting to blow up Grace Cathedral. He muttered something about the charges being dropped and having no intention to burn down any church. He also said he cleared everyone from under the Man for "safety" before torching the man. Then, he went back to say that he "saved" people after the man was lit. The judge was quick to point out the flaw in that argument and tell him he couldn't have it both ways... My point? Paul is crazy. Certifiably so. He needs help. Too bad he won't get it in prison.

Juicy Sanchez 2008-07-01T03:11:10Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0f7d15cf-73a8-4fb7-9ed3-f3a398789026 2008-07-01T02:46:54Z 2008-07-01T02:46:54Z

<The judge at the sentencing also made a point to say that he sees cases every year where people assume that they are above the law, and can do whatever they want. He went on to say that the laws of Nevada and Pershing County are in full effect, and if you violate those laws you are subject to their jurisdiction. It may feel like you can do whatever you want out there, but you really can't. Sorry. Not my rules.> I'm assuming you mean: "...he sees {Burning Man related} cases every year where people assume that they are above the law..."

Crypto 2008-07-01T02:46:54Z Juicy Sanchez http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1edc3a2c-04b9-49b1-93eb-dc4ce8e3d574 2008-07-01T02:34:29Z 2008-07-01T02:34:29Z

Chicken, You make some valid points regarding compassion and the failing of our legal system and, in fact, our community. However, when it comes to what really happened with all that wood and those costs, I think I have a unique perspective on what really went down: I spent a goodly portion of my Tuesday finding out specifically whether there was enough extra wood from Crude Awakening to build a new man. There most certainly was NOT enough wood. Crude Awakening did donate wood that was needed, but we did not have anywhere close to enough, and certainly not what was needed to create the man in his proper form. And, people don't buy a ticket to Burning Man and expect to see some cobbled-together man. The neon alone was $7,500 and that was not going to be found in some scrap pile. If somebody wanted to donate it, then they should have stepped up at the time. Hindsight is always 20/20. And, one more side note on this issue: please do not call Crude Awakening Dan Das Mann's project. It was a massive collaboration, and if anything we should bill Karen Cusolito first as it was truly her brainchild, but I understand that her name is difficult to spell. :-) Additionally, the costs of building the 2nd man were originally tallied at $33,000, then knocked down to $30,000, and then the judge decided to go with $25,000 in restitution because the figures were not quite up to his standards. However, I was there at the restitution hearing and sentencing and the judge had this to say: The standard by which to decide whether costs were over $5,000 and thus bring the offense up to the level of a felony was a "preponderance of the evidence." For those of you without a legal education, that basically means it must be proven by most of the evidence. Upon hearing Will's testimony, the judge specifically made a point to say that he found that the costs were shown to be greater that $5,000 "beyond a reasonable doubt." That means the judge went out of his way to say that the costs were so much over $5,000 that it was basically 99% sure. And that's after he knocked the costs down by $5,000. I repeat, the judge knocked off the amount that was the threshold. There has been some talk about BMan "not pressing charges" or otherwise covering this up and handling it internally. That sounds great if we were actually out in some real TAZ (look it up if you don't know, people!). However, it was not the org's choice to press charges. The Great State of Nevada chose to run with this. The judge at the sentencing also made a point to say that he sees cases every year where people assume that they are above the law, and can do whatever they want. He went on to say that the laws of Nevada and Pershing County are in full effect, and if you violate those laws you are subject to their jurisdiction. It may feel like you can do whatever you want out there, but you really can't. Sorry. Not my rules. Will Roger told me himself that the org requested counseling to be a part of the sentence. However, unfortunately the victim's wishes are not taken into consideration in such a case. Also, when called up to testify as to costs, Will Roger is under oath to give the true costs. It's not something that can be made up or fudged. If the costs had been less, that would've been great. But, as I learned working in the SF Public Defender's office: It is what it is. There are these things they call sentencing guidelines and judges have very little discretion to vary from those as stated. Finally, I think it is truly sad that Paul is going to state prison. Let's be clear on this folks: it's not county jail or federal prison - it is state prison, which is a very scary place and completely different than the other two. http://www.diffen.com/difference/Jail_vs_Prison I personally don't think prison is where Paul belongs, but I also don't think he would be well served by a mental institution or any other facility we currently have in place. Honestly, I don't feel our society really has the capacity to deal with these problems appropriately. If I could, I would put Paul in a permanent 1996 Hellco-style Burning Man. That would be just perfect. ; )

Juicy Sanchez 2008-07-01T02:34:29Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8c1ddc3e-ae15-4144-ab29-8bd5961bef73 2008-07-01T02:02:06Z 2008-07-01T02:02:06Z

IF he pled guilty, is it a verdict? And can you appeal a plea? And if you can why would you do it the next week?

Crypto 2008-07-01T02:02:06Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#24e701b7-f217-4944-92f3-54b27ca9ef1f 2008-07-01T01:58:25Z 2008-07-01T01:58:25Z

<swoon..>

Badger 2008-07-01T01:58:25Z ~:B:~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a659c580-6c93-4d3b-870d-af2645e20b15 2008-07-01T01:36:16Z 2008-07-01T01:36:16Z

Is anybody trying to appeal this verdict? Or just jabbering about what is already done? If the latter, then what's the point? To claim that our justice system is flawed, that Mr. Addis' attorney somehow failed him, or that he'd be better off in a metal institution than prison? I think the end result is the same. It's the tragic story of a misguided burner who made bad decisions.

~:B:~ 2008-07-01T01:36:16Z 10-E http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1a3d8c40-969a-4409-a5fe-a02909adac78 2008-07-01T01:21:16Z 2008-07-01T01:21:16Z

Let me pose another question. If Paul was not schizophrenic, or needing to take meds, or even trying to make "statement" (all reasons to try and excuse his behavior, would we be debating who's art it was or whether the Org is evil? I highly doubt it. What if it were just a malicious, mean-spirited person bent on destruction and harm, and nothing else? Would we be saying he was a hero? Of course not. Instead some are trying to find reasons why we should be praising his actions. Doesn't make sense to me.

10-E 2008-07-01T01:21:16Z 10-E http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#39c12baa-25ed-4fad-a036-cd32448cbdca 2008-07-01T01:04:53Z 2008-07-01T01:04:53Z

No actually Spectabilis, maybe you should go back and read the threads that occurred right after the event where I called you out on your arguments about why people supposedly weren't put in danger or if it was arson or not. I am not sure how my points were of little worth when they are the ones that have actually been thought out and jibe more with the reality of endangerment and malicious vandalism that occurred by Paul's actions. Most of your points are merely in the realm of wishful thinking. My art was not burned or vandalized, though I had direct conversations with those that had - the statue of liberty artwork (all the tools, etc.). It was a perfect example of why such actions are down-right wrong no matter what hair-brained statement a person is trying to make. Destroying other people's property is wrong, whether it is at Burning Man or not, especially if it put people in danger, which you seem to refuse to believe (ie: your endless posts about, "give me an example" just hoping no one ever gives one to prove you wrong. Even if everyone got out ok the very high POTENTIAL was there. Keep holding on to that absurd line of reasoning buddy, apparently the judge didn't buy it.) I also know a number of the people that had to use their well deserved time to enjoy the event correcting a selfish act of a lone actor among tens of thousands. On top of that property was damaged and destroyed (ie; The Man, the pavilion, displays in the structure below, generators, etc). Do you have no compassion? I have built two major art installations at Burning Man and I know I have never given some person with a questionable statement to come along and destroy it. As to posting the Pershing County info, nope not me. You should probably check your facts before making such statements to try and slander my reasoned arguments just so you can protect your own, which are highly dubious. I have never said that Paul should receive the maximum sentence, but I do think what he did deserves a reaction... and I sure as hell don't mean calling him a hero of some sort. You talk so much about compassion and all that but somehow seem to have none when it comes to people that were directly affected (no matter how you want to debate that level of affect). What I have said is that his actions went beyond the level of a mere prank and no matter how supposedly noble t they were based in complete selfishness and without any regard to other people's property, efforts, or well-being. See the thing is I remember the things that were said in the previous threads that you were vocal in, but you don't seem to remember them much at all. In fact you sound like a broken record compared to then. Again, maybe you should do some research before you start spouting off. Hey I am sure you are a nice guy and that you probably do have a good heart, but I truly think you are misguided in your assessment of what happened. Now what you are sure about is my history of inflammatory comments... well I see. My question to you is are you serious? Have you read some of your own comments on this very thread? Should we dredge up you comments of the past? Should we look at your endless posts about "the ORG" and AG and whoever else you feel you can just rail on? They are just faceless entities, right? Should we really compare who's points have more validity or who's are based in fantasy and actually have little worth other that try to deflect the responsibility of a person's actions that did wrong? Sorry to tell you, what Paul did was wrong. Plain and simple. You just can't see it. So if me calling you out on your "retarded arguments" (your words) is inflammatory then so be it. But I think you should research and learn my history of comments on this board before you prognosticate about them. So what it comes down to is this. I have a serious problem with your evaluation of what happened and I am going to challenge you when you so forcefully try to make something that was wrong into a right, or when you try to downplay the harm done to others. If all of what I have just said is of little worth so be it.

10-E 2008-07-01T01:04:53Z MdJGutie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#de111133-c94e-4bfc-af52-d5eb16d6a291 2008-07-01T00:51:46Z 2008-07-01T00:51:46Z

I love having MP back. Missed you, MP!

MdJGutie 2008-07-01T00:51:46Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e460686b-53da-4ca4-9407-8209b4a95d43 2008-06-30T23:09:25Z 2008-06-30T23:08:27Z

The state's overriding interest in preventing breaches of the peace outweighs an individual's First Amendment right to expressive conduct. Texas conceded there was no breach of the peace in the flag burning case. But a state -- especially law-and-order Nevada -- would argue a fire requring fire trucks to extinguish is a breach of the peace. More simply, it wasn't Paul's man to burn. You can only destroy your own property (or another’s property with that owner’s consent) (and not for the purpose of insurance fraud) in the name of art (or other protected expression).

Weazie 2008-06-30T23:08:27Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#d45db83d-da11-4be8-b4d6-f3b68715b2aa 2008-06-30T22:57:42Z 2008-06-30T22:57:42Z

The state's overriding interest in preventing breaches of the peace outweighs an individual's First Amendment right to expressive conduct. Texas conceded there was no breach of the peace in the flag burning case. But a state -- especially law-and-order Nevada -- would obviously argue a fire requring fire trucks to extinguish is a breach of the peace. And, more simply, it wasn't Paul's man to burn.

Weazie 2008-06-30T22:57:42Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#87f9297f-376f-49af-8454-b1195091f83d 2008-06-30T22:14:04Z 2008-06-30T22:14:04Z

>>>haha...that's like saying we are all going to die at some point.....<< If you have a solution to that, I am all ears. :D

margaret 2008-06-30T22:14:04Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#bf72e655-4110-4889-8645-031acff90f30 2008-06-30T22:13:09Z 2008-06-30T22:13:09Z

Please give us your legal counsel on why T v. J should not be considered here. Is it because the BM Corporation and its event are a commercial enterprise and not a community?

margaret 2008-06-30T22:13:09Z paul http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6c444e95-0aec-4ca8-8d91-a5ce19f76205 2008-06-30T22:09:57Z 2008-06-30T22:09:57Z

I would hardly compare burning the man early to murder! This is exactly the kind of exaggeration that keeps our prisons so full and it is what has many of us upset about this. The only consequence of burning the man early was that not everyone got to enjoy it. In this case though, lots of people got to enjoy it twice! I am sure if there were a donation bucket there people would have gladly donated way more then that for the spectacle. Other corporations would pay way more then $30K for the publicity stunt, so there really was no loss in real terms. And for the people calling this dangerous where were they for the rest of the event? Five gallons of gas would have been dangerous, but he used a blow torch. In 2003 there was a tripper caught roasting a hot dog on a IPC torch that the fire department had backed away from. That was real danger. A participant in a fire suit walked up to that person escorted him to safety and said keep walking before the authorities catch you. What happened to that community spirit here? That is where this went wrong. A good ranger would have mitigated rather then relied on outside forces to gain control. This should be a lesson. Do we really want this kind of authority to be the way things get handled in BRC?

paul 2008-06-30T22:09:57Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1c06c4d0-8215-4d84-a369-73a61929ff74 2008-06-30T19:11:46Z 2008-06-30T19:11:46Z

Or: Having seen what happened to Paul, will anyone thinking about burning the man early consider the consequences? (That's what's called in the legal biz "general deterrence.")

Weazie 2008-06-30T19:11:46Z ~:B:~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#4906355e-3850-4e8d-852d-c021c43c6651 2008-06-30T19:10:42Z 2008-06-30T19:10:42Z

haha...that's like saying we are all going to die at some point.....

~:B:~ 2008-06-30T19:10:42Z paul http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a6561853-5142-4900-8de0-1664ebb7b404 2008-06-30T19:09:05Z 2008-06-30T19:09:05Z

The reason people are in a tiff is because someone went to jail, not because the man burned. The were going to burn the man anyway!

paul 2008-06-30T19:09:05Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#c9ae09e3-08ab-44c5-b9bd-94aa2dadbf54 2008-06-30T19:06:29Z 2008-06-30T19:06:29Z

Although I don't doubt the ability of the community (as a whole) to rebuild the man for less than the Org did, I highly doubt they were piling on the costs with an eye towards an eventual criminal prosecution. Rather, I suspect they were doing what they thought was best under the circumstances. Which is big benefit of being in charge -- you get to actually call the shots as they happen (and then suffer the Monday-morning quarterbacking later). That others may have been able to do it better, cheaper, and quicker doesn't necessarily make the decisions made by the Org on that Tuesday morning malicious.

Weazie 2008-06-30T19:06:29Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a4ef99d7-4a1a-4a40-8c2f-a39ba36e5f38 2008-06-30T18:58:00Z 2008-06-30T18:58:00Z

The "it wasn't-arson-it-was-art" defense was probably foreclosed by his plea. And if one actually reads Texas v. Johnson, one might understand why that anology probably won't gain any legal traction. Texas v. Johnson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson

Weazie 2008-06-30T18:58:00Z napalm http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a16314d7-3afe-49c4-b722-f10602bf4bc1 2008-06-30T18:50:11Z 2008-06-30T18:43:54Z

Does anyone remember seeing "Burn the Man early this year" on the 'Burma-Shave' signs along the road coming in?? IMO, he was doing just as he was told. I'm surprised that point wasn't the technicality that got him released and got him the help he seriously needs right now. Regardless of "what could have happened", what *actually* happened is that the Man got burned and no one was hurt. Hypothetical arguments hold no water, folks. And I also thought about burning the flag, and the similarity here. No one ever decried, "...but what about the ARTIST who made the flag!?!" The Man is a symbol for BM and that is all, nothing personal. He was making a statement, is all. I'm sorry your gift got burned. Thank You, Chicken John for being a unmovable stand for a cohesive community that supports one another, in sickness AND in health. "We would be wise to stick together. Like glue. " Amen.

napalm 2008-06-30T18:43:54Z Pope http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#00d20164-7df0-4a65-b26e-86d684de5e30 2008-06-30T18:39:56Z 2008-06-30T18:38:40Z

Great, now everyones gonna attempt to get there monday to see it burn again. Someone, please burn it on Ladies Night this year, while it is still on it's back...

Pope 2008-06-30T18:38:40Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f496bf40-f29a-425d-a2a9-7e12dfc8054d 2008-06-30T14:58:24Z 2008-06-30T14:58:24Z

Actually, you can't just burn your small articles of property anywhere you like, and until 1989 it was illegal to burn *your* flag in most states. That was when SCOTUS ruled that flag-burning was protected free speech--including burning other people's flags. Can you believe that many people still want a ban or an amendment preventing you from burning your flag, including your flag in your fireplace. Why? Because of the symbolism. The reason I bring it up here is that it marks the difference between burning the effigy and burning the Contessa. In the case of the effigy we have a symbolic act akin to flag-burning. With the Contessa, we have a mean guy who didn't want the ship on his property. No symbolism, just maliciousness. The fact that so many people have their panties in a twist about Paul's burn underscores its symbolism. To me, they are like the conservatives who want a flag amendment. They got two shows for the price of one and still bitch? Most of the people who bitch didn't even rebuild the man, they are just bitching because the act was an affront to their sensibilities, which is the same issue with the anti-flag-burners. It would be interesting to see this case go before SCOTUS, but I imagine prohibitively expensive and not worth it to Paul. This is definitely more than just a business issue. This is community politics.

margaret 2008-06-30T14:58:24Z ~zoltan http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0ca3637a-ee8a-48b3-8f80-5afe47179b1e 2008-06-30T09:02:40Z 2008-06-30T09:02:40Z

the timing of the árson'was the real time to burn the man it was pure cosmic timing brilliance... (most people who are most pissed are the ones that were to slow to get to burningman on monday) im greatful for paul addis action and im sad he will have to do time...

~zoltan 2008-06-30T09:02:40Z Cook bacon naked! http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e0207632-ef90-4544-8cc2-49042a21133d 2008-06-30T07:37:40Z 2008-06-30T07:37:40Z

When Paul gets out of jail will he think twice before considering lighting something on fire again as a merry praink? Definitely.

Cook bacon naked! 2008-06-30T07:37:40Z Earl "Dodger" http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#d053a6db-ea4c-4ec8-a47b-0137e4752e3a 2008-06-30T04:52:15Z 2008-06-30T04:52:15Z

Hey, Metric.... So what IS the story? If people are being judged, as Paul is... What exactly did happen with Will? This seems like an excellent place to hear. To be truthful, I'm only repeating what I've heard, and I'd like to know what really happened. -Dodger

Earl "Dodger" 2008-06-30T04:52:15Z Earl "Dodger" http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#56d5d20c-aceb-4645-a073-1601e3673bfc 2008-06-30T04:49:39Z 2008-06-30T04:49:39Z

Hey Cabiria! Well, Will may be paying for it... but not by becoming a felon and spending 1 to 4 years in jail. Not by losing his professional license so he can no longer make a living as an attorney. It's SOOOOO ironic he's the one who testified against Paul, who has never harmed anyone. Now if only they had given Paul a chance, by 'our' community, to modify himself, instead of taking away years of his life. Now that would have been in a Burner spirit. But no, the org showed Paul zero compassion. -Dodger

Earl "Dodger" 2008-06-30T04:49:39Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#d3788f43-52f2-45c0-9777-5f98658c6ffa 2008-06-30T03:50:27Z 2008-06-30T03:50:27Z

It's not arson if it's YOUR flag... unless you paint your house like a flag and set it on fire. That would be arson. How about American flag rolling papers? Hmmm.....

Metric 2008-06-30T03:50:27Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e3659507-ec80-4d09-bcb2-d38aa849bacf 2008-06-30T03:48:10Z 2008-06-30T03:48:10Z

It's only arson if someone files charges. The sheriff told me that no one stepped forward to take responsibility. Maybe someone has some other information, but this is my understanding. As far as Mike Stewart was concerned, he was reducing a piece of trash to charred steel for recycling. I don't agree with that myself, for what it's worth. He also torched Magro's International Scout, which was a good running vehicle. Mike Stewart has now mostly moved out of the region, and has sold the Empire Energy power plant and various water rights: http://pepei.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ONART&PUBLICATION_ID=6&ARTICLE_ID=324607&C=PRODJ&dcmp=rss http://www.secinfo.com/dRQsw.tFq.htm

Metric 2008-06-30T03:48:10Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#979e6d85-7e45-4b0f-9162-137a0c5e4907 2008-06-30T03:44:35Z 2008-06-30T03:44:35Z

Both are red herring analogies MP. Stay on the sidelines if you can't make a reasonable argument.

Badger 2008-06-30T03:44:35Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#da2c9dcc-6da2-4704-a9c1-7223db90caf7 2008-06-30T03:32:31Z 2008-06-30T03:32:31Z

Chicken writes: "And Metric, we all know that the man isn't someone's artwork.... The man isn't yours or mine or ever Larrys. Saying that Paul burnt your art down is reaching." Now, I didn't "say" anything of the sort. I wrote: "I would have preferred that Paul had not burned the art I helped to build, legal and safety things aside." A little different than saying it's "my art." And, I think you're shoulder's out of the socket if you're trying to say the Man is not art. You can argue about "whose art is it anyway," but I figure it's at least partly mine, even if no more or less than it is yours or Larry's or everyone else's.

Metric 2008-06-30T03:32:31Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1f94bb57-af5d-4e2e-b9ed-55873608b146 2008-06-30T01:04:56Z 2008-06-30T01:04:56Z

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire I did not know that the club owner received the same sentence as the guy who started the fire. I guess we *should* bitch about the imaginary deaths the LLC almost caused by placing a bullseye over their pavilion. I did know that Budweiser paid $21 million to families for the crime of having advertised at the show. When it comes to money, lawsuits get creatively stupid without the help of could-have-beens added on for emotional emphasis. http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/24/brewer_seeks_to_settle_in_nightclub_fire/

margaret 2008-06-30T01:04:56Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7a07ce76-bd3c-4d65-8607-dd1fd36c4c4d 2008-06-30T00:50:49Z 2008-06-30T00:50:49Z

Is it arson in Nevada if you burn the American flag?

margaret 2008-06-30T00:50:49Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#323b5abf-cab5-4d53-9a9a-1354ea79406e 2008-06-30T00:33:52Z 2008-06-30T00:33:52Z

Metric, is it arson in Nevada if you burn somebody elses' Spanish galleon?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-30T00:33:52Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#99ea65f4-2758-4a32-98b7-4c4ca802811c 2008-06-30T00:31:53Z 2008-06-30T00:31:53Z

Spec said: "aparantly burningman isnt a forgiving or relatively kind community. " I'm very forgiving... when somebody has shown remorse and/or apologized.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-30T00:31:53Z marklar http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1dc24a34-fd14-4bcc-96f5-171d07c55342 2008-06-30T00:29:24Z 2008-06-30T00:29:24Z

as though there haven't been undercovers the last several years? As though our friends in fucking body armor and 9mms are there only to enjoy the art? He brings up a good point though, the political rallying cry. it's sure to be an interesting August.

marklar 2008-06-30T00:29:24Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#550531e8-59ab-41d4-b97f-a0f827549979 2008-06-30T00:24:26Z 2008-06-30T00:24:26Z

What's ridiculous specs is that you refuse to recognize an intentional act that could have resulted in the death of other people as a valid concern for law enforcement. Do you want specific examples of people having died in a structure in which an intentional fire caused unintentional death? Fine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_Night_Club_Fire Now go fuck yourself. I've lost all respect for you (and yes, I -had- some.)

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-30T00:24:26Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6b94a2f9-af84-4f7e-9db6-730a4b45dc07 2008-06-30T00:00:27Z 2008-06-30T00:00:27Z

"Why must this stupid place always de-evolve into personal attack and prove those who tear down the value of Burning Man so often right?" i think most either get used to it or leave, its the reason why ag avoids interacting as much now, as well as many other people working for the org. i think, but not sure, that 10-e is the same person who had thier art burned by some arsonist, who posted pershing country contact info, and who wanted the max sentance. what i am sure about is his history of inflamatory comments that usually degrades a discussion into little worth. and i guess he wins, because it gets to a certain point where most others avoid those kind of people and leave. which is where i guess i am headded now... heh...

spectabilis 2008-06-30T00:00:27Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#802a083d-37c5-4396-bad3-8bd1a1763735 2008-06-29T23:41:46Z 2008-06-29T23:41:46Z

This from Laughing Squid: comment by Timothy Warren on Sunday, June 29th, 2008 at 5:15 am I am not normally part of this discussion. I am not from SF or Portland. I am from Pershing County — yes, I am a townie, born and bred, just like the sheep. I am currently employed with the administrative structure of the county. I attended BM several times, back when the price of admission was less than my student loan payment. It looked like fun, it was fun, but due to my position I do not dare show up there anymore. But if you are interested in some information from the inside, from a townie in position to know, here it is. BM had two opportunities to close this case with less flesh off Addis’ bones. They declined. In fact, they pushed hard for maximum prosecution and maximum sentence. That’s what they got. Even some people on the legal side were surprised at the level of BM’s vengeance. They didn’t expect “the hippies” to behave that way. The judge, as you might expect from a small town in conservative, rural Nevada, was not interested in all the self-important “cultural” arguments from either side, especially from Addis. In his statement at the sentencing hearing he followed BM’s argument that they are running a big business and that Addis caused severe damage to that business. What it boiled down to was money, and BM’s testimony leaned heavily in that direction. If they had gone a little easier in that regard Addis probably would have gotten some jail time, but not four years and a felony rap. What you might not realize is that the case opened some old sores in this community. It played right into the hands of a small but powerful group, religious types who don’t like BM and what it stands for. The attitude I heard from one law enforcement guy after the hearing was, “Good. If they say they want tough enforcement out there, that’s what we’ll give them.” These guys are tired of your jokes about Reno 911, people. They don’t find it amusing anymore. (I went to high school with this guy. He’s not shitting around.) If you go this year, don’t expect the guys with badges to turn their heads to a lot of what they see on the playa like they’ve done in the past. Also, this officer said “outside” enforcement agencies have been in touch regarding possible police actions for this year’s event. Politically motivated, he said. Election year and all that. He didn’t say feds, but I assume that’s what he meant. He said it could include the use of undercover agents. I’m telling you this because I liked most of the people I met at BM: Be careful out there this year. Tell your friends. Be careful who you deal with. Be careful what you do in front of people who are not known to you. Otherwise, some of you could find yourself sharing a cell with Addis. (PS: I’m going to try to post this on BM’s corporate site as well but I do not know if it will get past their censors.)

cowboyangel 2008-06-29T23:41:46Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fd1f7df3-d120-488a-9c05-3e3b1bd0ec03 2008-06-29T23:17:48Z 2008-06-29T23:17:48Z

10-E this thread ia about Paul Addis, not attacking Spectabillis. Billis is a nice guy. Why must this stupid place always de-evolve into personal attack and prove those who tear down the value of Burning Man so often right?

cowboyangel 2008-06-29T23:17:48Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#02b22982-2393-46ba-98b2-329c358848ba 2008-06-29T22:33:36Z 2008-06-29T22:33:36Z

....building the man takes more then 12 hours for 2 guys..... My postings on this list may well be snarky, and rude, however, you sound delusional, and strongly bi-polar. Two guys build a fourty foot sculpture, with all the detail, in 12 hours. It would be a pile of crap. Prove me wrong. Go to the festival, start building the man on tuesday morning. Take bets on how long it takes you to build the thing. I've got $5 that says you never finish. Take bets on when, exactly, you keel over from exaustion. There are lots of ways to make this pay off, and use the money to help Paul. Also, if you actually bother to do it, it would tend to shut up snarky commenters like me. It would be a great way to show solidarity with your incarcerated hero, and show the bloated overlords of BMORG how things should be done. After all, acording to you, it shouldn't cost a dime, and it could be built and lit up by wednesday. In less then 24 hours, you could put an end to the popular conception that Chicken John is a used up drunk, still bitter over 20 year old, self-inflicted wounds.

Zaius 2008-06-29T22:33:36Z 10-E http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e3be7080-7c18-4ee1-beb4-1a8e44f6dd0b 2008-06-29T22:26:26Z 2008-06-29T22:26:26Z

I seriously think you have a short circuit somewhere.

10-E 2008-06-29T22:26:26Z 10-E http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#546685f7-b444-44a7-95be-735453e93ca3 2008-06-29T22:00:34Z 2008-06-29T22:00:34Z

Spectabilis, I wonder whose arguments are retarded? Oh and I see you are back to your, "specific and real example" bs again. I feel like I am experiencing deja vu.

10-E 2008-06-29T22:00:34Z 10-E http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#032f9193-a6b8-4dbd-bfe5-9081ab5c5827 2008-06-29T21:55:24Z 2008-06-29T21:55:24Z

Oh it's great to see you back in action with your weak posts.

10-E 2008-06-29T21:55:24Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#25ae2a9a-d6e4-40c8-999e-ab7b3d9ed707 2008-06-29T20:04:55Z 2008-06-29T20:04:55Z

"Firstly - people *were* put at risk. I've heard there were folks crashed out asleep under the pavillion. Drunk, high, exhausted after a long day of setting up camp?" yeah, right. i was told the same thing by a ranger who was upset that someone would 'burn down her man', yet another ranger who worked alongside her said it was a complete lie. countered there was no serious danger to emergency personel, they are not retarded enough to needlessly risk someone's life.

spectabilis 2008-06-29T20:04:55Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b198d573-c652-4a15-b0db-f1bb45a12a56 2008-06-29T18:02:58Z 2008-06-29T18:02:58Z

>>I wonder what a jury of Paul's peers (read us the burningman community) would have decided to do.>> That would have been the reasonable, intelligent, self-reliant thing to have done.

margaret 2008-06-29T18:02:58Z margaret http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#406a4829-a292-4f4d-8132-afa15d2c305b 2008-06-29T17:47:45Z 2008-06-29T17:47:45Z

"What about a night club owner who chains and pad locks the emergency exit doors? Should they not be fined until people die while trying to exit the building during a fire?" Were you purposely trying to make the point that the LLC should be just as liable for placing their well-known BULLSEYE on top of the pavilion?

margaret 2008-06-29T17:47:45Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e02d8b98-8490-4cda-9534-4543d8950fc3 2008-06-29T17:44:42Z 2008-06-29T17:44:42Z

(double post, typo corrected, so sue me)

Bob 2008-06-29T17:44:42Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0322c110-553d-4b1c-8afd-4fba2e8e4fd3 2008-06-29T17:42:07Z 2008-06-29T17:42:07Z

John, you're an institution with an ego to match. I like you and your writing is fun to read, but you're way off the mark here in terms of emphasis. Yes, you do mention the potential for harm that Paul chanced, but really underestimate the serious impact that that could have caused. That is far more important than your getting off on a side discussion about how fast and cheaply you could build the man. I dare you to do it as you say you could here. It may be too late this year, but next year. I'd put money down that you couldn't do it and give the proceeds to some worthy charity like, battered women's shelters. Someone made the point here how affected the dpw and construction crew were. I know this for a fact because I was delayed about 2 days in getting my 2 ton steel art sculpture erected, that also impacted my schedule in a less desirable way too. The crews were really stressed out, tired and it wasn't fair to them, as mentioned, to be denied from experiencing other things. To the point about danger existing on the playa, yes, that's there, but it is largely a calculated danger with safety measurement requirements. ( I had to present a detailed safety plan, burn medicine, fire extinguishers etc, before I was allowed on the playa) . What Paul did was unsafe, dangerous and reckless and worthy of arrest and punishment.

cowboyangel 2008-06-29T17:42:07Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#67b2ab3b-1927-4a76-8d6d-bff5911308d3 2008-06-29T17:27:38Z 2008-06-29T17:27:38Z

Yeah, and Paul himself helped Chris Campbell build the Man back in 1997. Maybe he felt he was owed, maybe that had something to do with his lack of contrition, but who could know his state of mind then or now? One would think as an attorney he could comprehend the statement on the ticket -- "You agree to follow federal, state, and local laws" or somesuch -- better than most. I'm sure this guided the judge in sentencing upon Paul's pleading guilty. Based on how the org calculate art grants these days, I'm sure they lowballed the $30,000. But what's the value of anything at Burning Man? What was the value of Steve Heck's installation that got torched prematurely by some unknown(?) arsonist in 1999?

Bob 2008-06-29T17:27:38Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#046ee7af-d10c-41f2-99f0-6e3f3ced4459 2008-06-29T17:21:31Z 2008-06-29T17:21:31Z

Yeah, and Paul himself helped Chris Carpenter build the Man back in 1997. Maybe he felt he was owed, maybe that had something to do with his lack of contrition, but who could know his state of mind then or now? One would think as an attorney he could comprehend the statement on the ticket -- "You agree to follow federal, state, and local laws" or somesuch -- better than most. I'm sure this guided the judge in sentencing upon Paul's pleading guilty. Based on how the org calculate art grants these days, I'm sure they lowballed the $30,000. But what's the value of anything at Burning Man? What was the value of Steve Heck's installation that got torched prematurely by some unknown(?) arsonist in 1999?

Bob 2008-06-29T17:21:31Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#68c13b42-9ee8-4375-a8d5-802ab97088be 2008-06-29T16:20:19Z 2008-06-29T16:20:19Z

Yes sir. I'm with ya. Something had to be done. I'd commit to fix that generator. And as a level 10 mechanic can do just that. I got the neon for free for the man and many other things for years. Where do you think the neon idea came from, Larry? John Law and M2 were neon sign guys. I worked with John and M2 for years. We have connctions. I still do sign work with John from time to time. I also own 4 PA systems. I give one. To keep Paul out of jail, right or wrong, I'd give. Hard. You may not know me, but fuckin' A I've got a lot of stuff. Like, you can't beleive how much stuff I have. A shit ton of people would have given. Right or wrong. If tossed in my lap, I'd have made the number zero. Really. Like for real. You could have too. All you'd have to do is ask. People are looking for a device to give. That's why we are here. This community needs to be activated from time to time. You can't own a Hemi-cuda and just keep it in the garage for decades. You have to start it up, drive it around the block. Open the doors. Let some light hit it... this community that we are a part of only get ativated by the BM leadership (if you can call it that) when we are invited to a party. And you can bet your sweet bippy that we are looking at a "save Burnign Man" year this comming year. As for putting people at risk, he definatly did. More risk, than say... the vegomatic? No. Seemen? No. Dan Das Mann's arena rock show his did last year? No fucking way. A fuel air bomb that he did was wildly risky. No just to the audiece, the crew. What paul did was stupid and dangerous. Sure. But I can remember that almost everything that I've ever done out there was stupid and dangerous too. It's just a perspective thing. As a thrower of events, you do these calculations all the time. You get better at it. So lets say... compared to the Power Tool Drag Races, Paul burning the man down is a mild risk. REally. I know that sounds absurd, really I do... but it's true.

Chicken 2008-06-29T16:20:19Z Pikey http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0cf2883f-ebf2-4b4b-b870-0be034394ff9 2008-06-29T10:23:36Z 2008-06-29T10:23:36Z

Firstly - people *were* put at risk. I've heard there were folks crashed out asleep under the pavillion. Drunk, high, exhausted after a long day of setting up camp? Damifino. For that matter, I don't even know that those people were even actually down there. What I *do* know is that rangers and other emergency responder-types went under the structure checking if anyone actually was there, and the people doing that WERE very definitely in danger. (One of the reasons why arson is such a big deal - it's not just destruction of property, it's a matter of putting firefighter's lives in peril.) Secondly - money. Your blithe assurances that you could have obtained the neon and electronics and all the other components for free are unconvincing. And remember, even if (somehow) it could be rebuilt without paying a dime, he didn't just burn the man. If I recollect properly the fire and water from the fire-fighting also took out a genny, a sound system or somesuch, a small fortune worth of aluminet, and fucked up a few art projects to boot. (things which weren't slated to get burned, and which cost cash monies) Was it $25K worth of stuff? Prolly not. But I *will* bet it was over five thou. Yes, his punishment is a fair bit more harsh than what the screwup deserves. But by acting as his appologist and making excuses for him (to assuage your own semi-guilty conscience for encouraging/enabling him?) and downplaying the severity of what he did, you're not doing any favors to anyone either. I give you credit for showing the uglier aspects of prison, and for raising the mental health issue. I honestly think you're coming from a good place when you say this. But I also think he was enough of a danger to himself and others that SOMETHING or other had to be done. Too bad he triggered a response from the PTB that wasn't going to help him.

Pikey 2008-06-29T10:23:36Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a0a791ec-7936-4bfc-9ca3-472f782d79d3 2008-06-29T08:33:45Z 2008-06-29T08:33:45Z

I make my own standoffs out of wood. I've got 10 sticks. Maybe 12. That's almost 10%... I've got all the transformers, yes. I can have the neon done for free or cheap. Really cheap. Today. Right now. Tysons shop in HP. Get it done whenever we need to get it done. It's just straiight sticks. 2 minutes tops. Pump and cap. I know what I'm talking about. I have built the man. There is a lumber list of cuts. You do the cuts, marking each one with a sharpie. Number and letter and a top/left orientation. You build each limb and torso and head... then assemble with simpson ties. Clevis the torso with the stiff leg derek jinn pole. With a nailer and a chop saw it's not rocket science. Otto builds it for chrissakes. It's true I'm not a master carpenter. It's how I work so fast. By sheer volume of my energy level, I've probably built more things than anyone. I do a ton of stuff. But none of it's perfect. But it always works. Anyone who says that building the man takes more than 12 hours for 2 guys with 2 nailers and a chop saw with a lumber list and all the materials sitting right there is a coward. I will bet $1,000 that I can build the man with 1 carpenter in one 12 hour day. You supply the material and you get to keep the man. I'll send the $1,000 to Paul.

Chicken 2008-06-29T08:33:45Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ca0f3939-992f-4505-a8b7-ee6d10798812 2008-06-29T07:13:27Z 2008-06-29T07:13:27Z

I don't know about your decision making abilities, but I do know about your weak grasp of reality. So you could do the neon for free? You have six sticks of neon? maybe 10? There are over 125 sticks of neon on the man. By the way, did you bring your neon with you? What about the transformers? Wire and stand offs? What shop will you use for free? Can you get it done in less then 40 hours? Of course not. You just do not know what you are talking about. No one,except, perhaps, you, asked Paul to burn the man early. I can't imagine that anyone who rebuilt the man really liked going without sleep for several nights,not to mention missing things on the playa. If you have all the answers, then, where were you, anyway? 4 of you could build the man in a short day? I've seen your work, first hand. I don't think that any 4 of you could build your way out of a piss soaked paper bag in a week, much less build the man out of cast off wood, in the time allowed. So, when you were in jail, did you really pay to fondle some fat dude's boobs, when you were slagging off? If that is the way you like to solve problems, I think we are better off without you.

Zaius 2008-06-29T07:13:27Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#23875dff-d7b9-481b-89e0-f337e5c29a68 2008-06-29T05:27:07Z 2008-06-29T05:27:07Z

Chicken, I'm touched, really. Reminds me of when we burned Water Woman. Anybody know what brand of cigarettes he smokes, so I can mail him a carton?

Bob 2008-06-29T05:27:07Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#785ce301-5ec3-4282-bcf6-61c72c16797d 2008-06-29T04:48:42Z 2008-06-29T04:48:42Z

Enough wood was on site to build 10 men. Everyone brings a few extra sticks. Friggin' Dan Das Mann had so much wood it was obsence. I watched on Sunday night, so much stuff was burned on the burn platforms and BWB collected SO MUCH WOOD. I"m sure Tom has photos. Enough to build 100 men, maybe. We are talking $100,000 in lumber, at least. Not burned for the art... this is extra wood that is burned. It's ASTOUNDING how much wood is left over. in BM '06 they gave wood to Habitiat For Humanity, and they built several houses!!!!! The wood was there. They needed to buy nothing. Some neon. I could have got that donated. Easy. I actually have some man neon. Blue and red sticks. We made a bunch one year, I kept some. I stole it. But whatever, we didn't pay for it. Pogo made it for free. It's glass. Sand. Free. Pumped with neon. Also almost free. Labor only. Labor donated. Free. Free free free. No $5,000. They went and spent $30,000 on lumber and supplies to build and burn another green man then all the extra lumber from the event got trucked out or burned and Paul has to do hard time now. Is it me, or is that kinda disappointing? That disconnect right there didn't have to happen. And this is from the same community that is "plugged in" with regionals and groups adn email lists and mailing lists and theme camps and tribes and villages and ride share and truck share and 4 local papers, 15 radio stations, greeters, golf cart douchebags, a billion cops and a computer based message board and United States Postal Service AND WiFi all over the place and you're gonna tell me that we could'nt get a fucking truck load of lumber from over there to over here? It's sitting right over there@!!!!!!!!! Just bring it over here, and we'll build a man. It's really easy. me adn you can do it in a day. A long day. Or 4 of us can do it in a short day. Am I the only guy who can solve problems here? And Metric, we all know that the man isn't someone's artwork. If you made something from your mind with your blood sweat and tears... that's totally different from the man. The man isn't yours or mine or ever Larrys. Saying that Paul burnt your art down is reaching. Be careful, you might pull a muscle reaching that far. I know you want to make your point, but please don't tell me that the man is your art. There are 500 carpenters on the playa who would have LOVED to help build the man. It would have made their chests swell with pride. But the people that were chosen are just a bunch of spoiled whiners. Fuck, this situation is really bringing out the redneck in all ya'll. Next thing you'll be saying is "Let God sort 'em out."

Chicken 2008-06-29T04:48:42Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a5b34a31-3712-442b-849c-a7ea15fc0c38 2008-06-29T04:28:44Z 2008-06-29T04:28:44Z

Is jail ever a wake up call to anyone? It happens, sure, but it's a sort of small percentage and compared to the damage that the rest endure and pass on, I think is a silly thing to say. More rote that thoughtful.

Crypto 2008-06-29T04:28:44Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#82fdd3da-9d30-43fb-aa3a-75942f67fe48 2008-06-29T02:38:23Z 2008-06-29T02:38:23Z

It has been said that the Org submitted in court receipts for damages *well* in excess of $5000: http://laughingsquid.com/paul-addis-pleads-guilty-to-burning-man-2007-arson-charges/#comment-527474 So simply trying to collect gifts of wood probably would not have brought the damages to under $5000, but I understand your point that it appears the Org did not make an incredible effort to solicit gifts (and thus lessen its damages). However, given the constraints of time, that might not have been possible. (If the damages were under $5000, regardless of the precise charges, it would have been a misdemeanor.)

Weazie 2008-06-29T02:38:23Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#354002d9-1f7d-47dc-896f-02d01a566f4d 2008-06-29T02:23:25Z 2008-06-29T02:23:25Z

The short answer is that any talk of strikes (especially "third strike") is totally baseless. The longer answer is, well, kinda dry. If you really, really care, l can explain.

Weazie 2008-06-29T02:23:25Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ad63b044-9a15-48a3-ad17-b327b3820f62 2008-06-29T01:57:56Z 2008-06-29T01:57:56Z

"Apparently you are defining "enlightened" as "anyone who agrees with me" thats your assumption, and an incorrect one. so to avoid a debate over semantics - many people believe that burningman sustains and fosters a community that it sees as better than the ones we normally live in, and its a belief that the burningman llc explicitly promotes. 'enlightened' was a convienant generalization that i think most understand its reference, but maybe not for you.

spectabilis 2008-06-29T01:57:56Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e39b8ac0-f4e2-4091-a98c-5dca823436e7 2008-06-29T00:05:12Z 2008-06-29T00:05:12Z

Seems to me the underlying question is of the morality of his act. Someone urinated on my artwork in 2003 and I had to spend quite a bit of time cleaning it up. Destroying someone else's artwork is not a prank, it is disgusting. It would be one thing to create his own artwork and destroy it, but to destroy someone else's creation is where we should ALL draw the line. As for punishment I'm not for it. There are better ways to get people to act appropriately in society than punishment. Punishment only creates a cycle of pain. _Encouragement_ for doing right is far and above what we should be focusing on!!! And as for the law, well I walk around naked and that breaks the law. The question is am I doing damage by my actions? I hope not.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-29T00:05:12Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#2673344f-eb30-4216-aada-4787b2cf987a 2008-06-28T23:52:29Z 2008-06-28T23:52:29Z

I wrote: "Y'know, it's all so much fun to ruminate in the abstract. At some point, idiotic ramblings end and you get your day in court. Paul had his. I'm not sure if it's too harsh or not harsh enough. But he made the choices that put him where he is." That's hardly "Rot in jail." And when I last had my day in court, it's was for an expired registration ticket, not a felony. I think I paid $75.00. The "value" put on Paul's act of destruction by the court seemed reasonable, all things considered. I don't think it was "featherbedded" as you suggest, and it had nothing to do with the cost to people like myself and others who volunteered. You're right, we enjoyed doing it. Still, I would have preferred that Paul had not burned the art I helped to build, legal and safety things aside. One year some people "stole" the arm of the Man. There was a one-armed guy who killed someone and then found his way to the ranch, and after he was held for the authorities by DPW and arrested, this was their sort of creepy homage. (He went to prison-- murder is a felony.) Thing is, they brought the arm back. It was a joke. A prank. Somehow, felony larceny charges weren't filed... I'm amazed that people don't see the difference.

Metric 2008-06-28T23:52:29Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8e76a81b-e141-4c11-b00c-b8b42a47196a 2008-06-28T23:50:57Z 2008-06-28T23:50:57Z

I think the fact that his sentence maxes out at 48 months suggests that a 3rd strike wasn't on the table.

Badger 2008-06-28T23:50:57Z Gabriel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#feb32ef8-b2e1-493c-861c-05f40ccdfb0f 2008-06-28T22:27:07Z 2008-06-28T22:27:07Z

As I recall, there was a mock trial set up on second life many months ago. The verdict was guilty by law 3-2 and not guilty in the spirit of the event 3-2. In short, in a jury of five peers, they were pretty much split. Since Paul didn't plead insanity, he's stuck in prison, that's his (or his lawyer's) bad move. It's a bummer that someone with so many problems didn't get the help he needed and is sent to prison instead. But maybe he's not insane. So imagine for a moment that he commited the crime of sound mind. Just because someone breaks the law, doesn't make them insane. -Gabriel

Gabriel 2008-06-28T22:27:07Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ebfb1e7d-ec76-49a7-a3fa-dfab73e17bf8 2008-06-28T21:04:48Z 2008-06-28T21:04:48Z

OK, I'll bite " How about the value of everyone's time and energy to pull off the rebuild?" How about it, Metric? How about it indeed. I don't know about you, but for me... building the man was always an act of generosity. I did it for free. In my spare time. 2 or 3 guys used to build the man in a weekend or 2. Not rushing. Drinking beer and smoking pot. Now there is a crew of 30 people who spend all year building it (exaggerating for comic effect). But have you ever heard of the term 'featherbedding'? It happens at BM too. The value of time spent doing things like building a man is distorted. Who could know better than me. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that you can't simplify something like voulenteer labor vs. paid labor and not scratch your head a little. I think that Paul burning the man early, all legal and saftey things aside, should have cost zero dollars. If I was the puller of the chain, that's how it would have gone. And the voulenteers who re-built the man would have had fun. But that's not how it went. Beeline right to commerce and value adn trade and all the other shit that we have all fought tooth adn nail for a decade to tone down. Larry could have rallied voulenteers, materials and made a big production out of actually using the community to solve a problem. But ya gotta be a leader to see that, and Larry's no leader. If what Paul burnt was made of scrap wood by voulenteers, maybe Paul's sentence would be lighter. Easy for you to say "Rot in jail, loser!"... but only someone who's never been to jail would say that. Like a spoiled teenager telling her mother "I hate you!" before slamming her bedroom door because mom won't buy her a collegene treatment for her forehead. It's something that, in time, you'd be embarrased saying. We are the real losers here. Not because Paul went to jail. But because BM isn't the event it could be. But I guess I'm not the man I could be either. So maybe I should just shut up. By the way, there are now 3 people on the list of "friends of Paul Addis". And yes, he created value. Of course he did. Don't be silly. I hope when you get your day in court, that the world is a bit softer. Truly.

Chicken 2008-06-28T21:04:48Z Cat http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#4a1df609-0d43-4c22-af04-d56fcf396073 2008-06-28T18:25:50Z 2008-06-28T18:25:50Z

<< what? you thought burningman was this great and enlightened environment that everyone and the org says it is? >> Apparently you are defining "enlightened" as "anyone who agrees with me." No, not everyone thinks that destruction of property is okay if it happens to happen to the org. And not everyone defines "compassion" as "letting someone get away with crap." Sometimes the compassionate thing to do is teach a man that there are consequences to his actions. Given Addis' criminal history up to this point, he's had enough chances to change. Perhaps jail will be a wake up call to him. Perhaps it will convince him that life on meds is better than life behind bars. I don't expect it to encourage him to have actual respect for others or their property -- but it may teach him to pretend as though he does.

Cat 2008-06-28T18:25:50Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#5ff698e3-46bf-4a5c-9575-0e6917751ab2 2008-06-28T18:09:04Z 2008-06-28T18:09:04Z

Paul tried to say that because of all of the media, he CREATED VALUE for Burning Man with his acts. Is that kinda the tack you're taking, Chicken? How about the value of everyone's time and energy to pull off the rebuild? Have you ever seen someone burned to death? I have. What about the risk to people? Oh. They accepted responsibility for injury or death. So now some artist in a clown suit is going to run around kicking the living shit out of people. In The Name Of Art. Woo hoo. Y'know, it's all so much fun to ruminate in the abstract. At some point, idiotic ramblings end and you get your day in court. Paul had his. I'm not sure if it's too harsh or not harsh enough. But he made the choices that put him where he is. Kinda like the pie throwers who get locked up for assault-- yes, it's a pie, and yes, you had some brilliant clever point to make. Now, you are being charged with assault. Look it up. Burn your own bunyon. Burning someone else's bunyon is called arson, at least in Nevada. Burning someone else's fireworks shed is arson, even if the crowd enjoys the resulting impromptu show.

Metric 2008-06-28T18:09:04Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6b95c2c1-e13f-4049-9ae8-6464289c0f62 2008-06-28T17:54:53Z 2008-06-28T17:54:53Z

Sorry, I have to call bullshit on this one, too. First, he didn't hold anyone's face against anything. She got money, he got demoted. He also has been clean and sober ever since. Satisfied?

Metric 2008-06-28T17:54:53Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#de563577-1236-4b38-a304-0c39400158f9 2008-06-28T17:23:56Z 2008-06-28T17:23:56Z

then thank god there are some shrinks and psychologists in the community. Badger what would you decide for a sentence?

cowboyangel 2008-06-28T17:23:56Z iMosaicmix ♪ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#80152628-bdaf-4a33-ac18-00dd4204c133 2008-06-28T13:27:43Z 2008-06-28T13:27:43Z

...I wonder what a jury of Paul's peers (read us the burningman community) would have decided to do. Someone should set up a mock trial or something... One thing I think I'm pretty sure of, we would've come up with a different form of punishment than what he is actually getting.

iMosaicmix ♪ 2008-06-28T13:27:43Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1cb2ea80-44aa-4103-bb71-eb7cadb9ce52 2008-06-28T08:24:28Z 2008-06-28T08:24:28Z

Hey Chicken John, I wanna be a friend of Paul. Really. I've got a whole cigarette that I am willing to donate to your worthy cause. All I want is to squeeze your fat, saggy man boobs. You should think about it. I am sure that that has to be the best offer you have recieved, so far.

Zaius 2008-06-28T08:24:28Z cowboyangel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#dd6c22b0-75f3-47b4-81ea-89a7034b466d 2008-06-28T06:38:16Z 2008-06-28T06:38:16Z

Obama supports the death penalty and the death penalty for rape. Fuck him and his clintonesque movement to the constipated center. I'm not voting for him either Chicken. Let's all go to hell with McCain. Addis is mentally disturbed and could have seriously hurt many people. I thought his sentence was fair. Perhaps someday, we'll have therapy in prisons for people like him...ya, when we're not spending a trillion dollars on an illegal war and billions on a military et al the is draining the financial and moral resources of the nation. Fuck the stupid 08 theme too again and again. I ain't going this year in protest.

cowboyangel 2008-06-28T06:38:16Z Moze http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b87df13b-85cd-42ee-ae93-c347015af240 2008-06-28T06:30:43Z 2008-06-28T06:30:43Z

Following this thread, I'd have rather seen Mr. Addis get help instead of prison time. I don't know him but since the incident I've heard from a lot of people that he's a good guy gone astray because of chemicals beyond his control and it sucks that he's going to prison. Hope he can avoid doing too much time. Damn. The mythology he contributed to mis-stepped into felony land. Sucks.

Moze 2008-06-28T06:30:43Z cabiria http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f5c2d52c-7295-4e0e-ad60-cfed5121dfbe 2008-06-28T06:29:32Z 2008-06-28T06:29:32Z

"The Burning Man Organization was asked to talk to the prosecutor and request that he not be charged with a felony. They didn't do that. Instead, board member Will Rogers (a man who once held a girls face against a red hot burn barrel, and got away with it) testified against him, giving an accounting of what their costs were." In all fairness, Will did not get away with that. That episode is pretty common knowledge in our world, his world, and he is paying for it. He will probably pay for it, in some way, forever. He was given the opportunity, by our community, to modify himself. As far as I know, he has done that. I would work with him anytime, and have told him so. I think this is is how a healthy community functions. Work it out within, protect your people. I think this is how people learn, and learn, .....

cabiria 2008-06-28T06:29:32Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#93d26752-ff62-49c5-b97d-ca00db63e6e7 2008-06-28T04:09:02Z 2008-06-28T04:09:02Z

It's really a Jerry Springer show. Really.

Chicken 2008-06-28T04:09:02Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f6d6060e-3e9f-40ef-83bd-adb6359d9180 2008-06-28T04:05:55Z 2008-06-28T04:05:55Z

(fuck, Badger beat me to it.)

Crypto 2008-06-28T04:05:55Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6a657075-93e5-46fa-88bb-8e546126790e 2008-06-28T04:02:19Z 2008-06-28T04:02:19Z

Points are moot (subject to debate, as we are doing here) not mute (unable to speak.) Yeah, I guess points are also unable to speak, but that seems a natural attribute of "point" just as it does of "lamp."

Crypto 2008-06-28T04:02:19Z JonMark http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#368176f8-1913-4fbf-9028-7da770e1ff1f 2008-06-28T04:01:12Z 2008-06-28T04:01:12Z

my goodness, Burning Man is so fucked up

JonMark 2008-06-28T04:01:12Z ~:B:~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8277d638-be2b-4bf4-86ec-155f11feebe7 2008-06-28T03:36:05Z 2008-06-28T03:36:05Z

yes, my bad.

~:B:~ 2008-06-28T03:36:05Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#41df5305-4efa-4258-ba8a-2d9d05a8513b 2008-06-28T03:04:33Z 2008-06-28T03:04:33Z

So what you're saying is that if Larry would have got in a pick up truck and driven around BM with a lumber list and collected extra lumber to build man #2 with that it could have be a different 'class' felony and maybe without a minimum? Well that really burns my bunyon.....

Chicken 2008-06-28T03:04:33Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8a5e4c70-f2eb-4eeb-87e7-a91d1d5ccce2 2008-06-28T02:48:13Z 2008-06-28T02:48:13Z

“Paul Addis pleaded guilty in May to one felony count of injury to property stemming from the burning of the 40-foot icon on Aug. 28 — four days earlier than planned. He was ordered to pay $30,000 in restitution.” Injury to property greater than $5000 is a Class C felony in Nevada, punishable by 1-5 years in prison.

Weazie 2008-06-28T02:48:13Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8ce8cfd7-d3df-4bd6-9ea7-e43deb5304c6 2008-06-28T02:46:15Z 2008-06-28T02:46:15Z

No, really. But it was okay, I was incredibly constipated at the time, and if he hadn't poked me right then and there I might have died of incredible constipation or something. My hero!

Bob 2008-06-28T02:46:15Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#0714ed28-82fa-4e8e-b972-87241b147006 2008-06-28T02:38:10Z 2008-06-28T02:38:10Z

Oh Bob.. your such an asshole. As of now, 2 people have written me and asked to be "friends of Paul Addis". You guys are all heart...

Chicken 2008-06-28T02:38:10Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b55f5e89-de0e-4983-a51d-95915f9dbeb1 2008-06-28T02:26:39Z 2008-06-28T02:26:39Z

Chicken, I forgot to mention -- Paul raped me -- that's when they ran out of kits.

Bob 2008-06-28T02:26:39Z paul http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#4c73c1cd-e7f6-4462-b119-9d1653b14a99 2008-06-28T02:10:54Z 2008-06-28T02:10:54Z

as seen on yahoo news.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080628/ap_on_re_us/burning_man_burned

paul 2008-06-28T02:10:54Z daMongolian / Greg http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e5154df2-824f-420d-bbdd-d766a8b99343 2008-06-28T01:04:45Z 2008-06-28T01:04:23Z

I'd heard or read anecdotally, shortly after returning from the playa last year, that if Paul Addis' activities related to the man burning were charged as a felony, that it would be considered a 'third strike' can anyone with more history shed some light on this?

daMongolian / Greg 2008-06-28T01:04:23Z Metric http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#5e732e9d-db41-4be1-9cce-ccdfd0542a52 2008-06-28T01:01:58Z 2008-06-28T01:01:58Z

Paul Addis told the judge that he had taken steps to make sure that no one was in danger before he set his fire, but then later stated that he helped to remove people from the pavilion to safety. The judge then asked, which was it? You can't have it both ways. The judge also asked how Paul managed to go from being an attorney to pleading on arson charges. I understand that Paul's parents offered to buy everyone lunch afterwards-- from both sides of the aisle, so to speak. I didn't go myself, but heard about it from some friends who went to Lovelock then returned to tell the tale at Frog Pond.

Metric 2008-06-28T01:01:58Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b0742367-601f-461b-8db1-cc783a1579fa 2008-06-28T00:59:24Z 2008-06-28T00:59:24Z

I'd much rather do the math given all of the equation. Your synopsis amounts to little more than arithmetic.

Badger 2008-06-28T00:59:24Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f540c9db-d0c1-4f91-ab1f-e2636ddd98a5 2008-06-28T00:56:35Z 2008-06-28T00:56:35Z

The word is 'moot' not mute. Although I wish dismissive assholes with the one line retorts would play mute sometimes.

Badger 2008-06-28T00:56:35Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#97205593-4786-4415-b53d-98da998eb3f1 2008-06-28T00:52:10Z 2008-06-28T00:52:10Z

Chicken, your's is a very nice example of a point-of-view which illuminates my belief that disagreement is a natural consequence of living in a world where people are different in the perceptions. Oh and the 'hero' analogy is just over the top *bad.* There's nothing fucking heroic about what Addis did. His actions amount to a tantrum. A narcissistic, shit-flinging tantrum. Where's the heroism in that? Having stated my objections I'll note that I can appreciate your passion and understand your perspective somewhat although I'm not willing to invest into the Hemorrhaging Heart School of Criminal Non-Accountability any more than I'm willing to buy into the leave-the-anarchistic-lone-wolf-alone model of personal expression. Neither is sustainable in the society which *we* live in. That center could never hold and pretending otherwise serves only to obfuscate the the more pointed issues. Issues such as what is an appropriate standard of justice given the offense? How *do* we deal compassionately and fairly with offenders in Addis's situation without sacrificing the rule of law? How do we mete out appropriate punishment to individuals who - sick or not - chip away at the Social Contract by their calculated (and uncalculated) actions? You know, *those* sort of questions. Playing the He Should Be Set Free Because the System is Fucked card moves the discussion nowhere.

Badger 2008-06-28T00:52:10Z Tony http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#94de5f66-c969-468d-bdae-96fae704fe90 2008-06-28T00:43:01Z 2008-06-28T00:43:01Z

That's what the little kid said when he took the car on a joyride. And then he ran someone over and killed them. There have to be checks and balances. Arson is a crime. Even if it was 'just for fun'.

Tony 2008-06-28T00:43:01Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#04476dd5-2209-43c3-bc24-8f8151efd4b2 2008-06-27T22:27:29Z 2008-06-27T22:27:29Z

The people in the pavillion were in far, far less danger than when I have operated any of the dozens of flame throwers while tripping balls on LSD. Or anyone else I know who have operated countless fire effects while flying on mushrooms or drunk out of their minds. BM isn't a safe place. And although all of everyone's arguements are valid or whatever, the fact is that no one was in any danger. Yea, the building was on fire, but ya know... whatever. Talk to one of the (likely) hudereds of rape victoms at BM last year and then telll me about a fire you could walk away from. Talk to them about criminals and jail time and shit. That kinda how I look at things... How many rape kits BM buys every year isn't on the after burn report either... There was 100 bought in 98. I wonder if they ran out by Friday the same time the beer ran out? There is more than one way to look at this. In my mind, Paul Addis is a criminal until you stand him next to a rapist. Then he's just a confused kid who made a little fire.

Chicken 2008-06-27T22:27:29Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7457467f-0f22-42e0-ad18-4764c40af103 2008-06-27T22:14:52Z 2008-06-27T22:14:52Z

so i assume you don't believe that he's schizophrenic? I think that his motavations are important. PA has never said what they were. Last year, there was discussion that he was a revolutionary hero. Fine. If that is the case, we should celebrate his Revolutionary Incarceration. Write songs, produce plays that lionize his daring exploits. Take comfort in that Paul will use his time to write a book that will set the world on fire. It has been done before. Mien Kampf was written in jail, and that guy went on to change the world. And, like paul, he liked to burn things down. However, if Paul says that the goldfish told him to do it, that is diffrent. Has there ever been a psych diagnostic? Is he on medication? If so, was any of this brought up to the judge? And if not, then ,why not? Does Paul think that he is insane, or not? Finally, Chicken describes Paul as a simple minded stooge, who was goaded into action by the friendly folks at Laughing Squid. Why didn't he write this last year, when it might have done some good? I think it is laudable that Chicken is taking the lead with the PA mental health fund. It almost makes up for pushing a mentaly unstable mind into prison.

Zaius 2008-06-27T22:14:52Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7750fda1-135a-4462-b919-8db8a3a0487e 2008-06-27T22:12:14Z 2008-06-27T22:12:14Z

oh come the fuck on, it was something that everyone expects to burn sitting atop a shade structure in the middle of a fucking open desert. you know what/? sorry, but i changed my mind in asking, i'm not about to revisit your same retarded arguments unless someone comes up with a specific and real example where someone there was injured or almost died.

spectabilis 2008-06-27T22:12:14Z ~:B:~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7acbe877-a152-4ae0-ae81-ca61564cea63 2008-06-27T22:05:25Z 2008-06-27T22:05:25Z

it's a mute point. he's in jail. not getting out. NEXT!!!

~:B:~ 2008-06-27T22:05:25Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6a2b4af3-38ba-424b-88bb-25b39b798f96 2008-06-27T22:05:10Z 2008-06-27T22:05:10Z

yeah, i know, and yet if you try and point that out they somehow think you must automatically think paul addis should be set free - or worse, told you should be ass-raped and join him in the cell. i was quite shocked to recieve a couple of messages that said that.

spectabilis 2008-06-27T22:05:10Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a43b47ae-92a1-4945-a44f-a6ca6c00845b 2008-06-27T21:58:28Z 2008-06-27T21:58:28Z

no, really, tell me who's life was in immediate danger? were they somehow trapped? did they stand under it completely unaware of what was going on and something burning fell and almost crushed them? because none i followed up with said anything even close to that. thats a big and far reaching 'what-if' statement that doesnt have much base in reality to what happened. yes, there was danger, and someone once mentioned that due to the nature of the event someone could have easily been passed out and overlooked. another person said there's always a danger from emergency response vehicles in running someone over. really, i understand where you and others are comming from. but most of it is the same extremist reaction to justify just about anything out of indignation with no sense of balance. just like people wanting to tie him up and drag him behind a dpw truck. just like people saying he should have been burned alive. and just like people posting contact info to the pershing county prosecutor and judge wanting the maximum sentance available during all that. at some point things have to reach a fair and balanced view if others want to make attempts to discuss workable solutions to systemic problems, like our justice system and the lack of resources to deal with things. yet even that is impossible in the presence of what you see here, now. and it doesnt surprise me, not really, people on both sides of this seem more concerned with feeling wronged or just bitching about something.

spectabilis 2008-06-27T21:58:28Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#26fcb2ad-0ade-4642-ba47-36246851e16b 2008-06-27T21:50:40Z 2008-06-27T21:50:40Z

spectabillis, so a night club owner who packs a 100 capacity room with 400 people shouldn't be fine until somebody dies? What about a night club owner who chains and pad locks the emergency exit doors? Should they not be fined until people die while trying to exit the building during a fire?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-27T21:50:40Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#1bc93d7c-b051-45e9-a4ef-e3987e9f51ce 2008-06-27T21:49:40Z 2008-06-27T21:49:40Z

So I was not upset (at first) by pauls actions. Then I learned of the danger he posed to some of the most beautiful people I get to know. Then I learned that the idea of sustainability that the "org" had provided to let us all be more aware of how to be more proactive about life were destroyed. I RAILED against Paul. But the more I learned about HIS situation the more I backed off. I now feel shame (once again) to be American. The man (Paul) needs help and he will not get it where he is headed, we failed as a country once again plain and simple.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-27T21:49:40Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#7273643b-0144-4188-9dc2-d43c5b55313a 2008-06-27T21:39:37Z 2008-06-27T21:39:37Z

who is saying its the org's responsibility that he is serving jail time? i didnt know the org directly asked the judge for a maximum sentance but i guess you know more about the org's involvement in this than everyone else, including the org. and something burning fell on someone? thats news to me, and everyone else far as i know. oh and look, bob's going on again, how... unlike bob. just because someone doesnt accept the extremeist view he deserves four years in prison means they also think he should be set free or not recieve psyche help? yeah, welcome to the polarizing world of emotional ranters. no wonder people wanted to burn him alive.

spectabilis 2008-06-27T21:39:37Z atom is ever changing http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#304aef10-fb55-4aef-9f17-8eecc95528aa 2008-06-27T21:33:11Z 2008-06-27T21:33:11Z

lol you are spot on. Most of these people here commenting are the same people that said Paul should take it in the ass in prison or should be hung. Fucking burners are like light switches.

atom is ever changing 2008-06-27T21:33:11Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ba4e1da3-06fb-40c9-a749-d16eddc18b5e 2008-06-27T21:12:02Z 2008-06-27T21:12:02Z

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=184757

Bobzilla 2008-06-27T21:12:02Z Earl "Dodger" http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#73fe15ee-5fd5-4b02-9c1b-3ebd4160cd28 2008-06-27T20:54:32Z 2008-06-27T20:54:32Z

Well, now that he's been convicted of a felony, he'll be disbarred, and unable to practice law. His last non-income producing gig was as playwrite and actor on a play we produced. The Burning Man Organization was asked to talk to the prosecutor and request that he not be charged with a felony. They didn't do that. Instead, board member Will Rogers (a man who once held a girls face against a red hot burn barrel, and got away with it) testified against him, giving an accounting of what their costs were. Though asked, they've given no comment about Paul's sentencing. You do the math.

Earl "Dodger" 2008-06-27T20:54:32Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#926641fc-0350-4962-a5f0-a8171c5fe03b 2008-06-27T20:18:33Z 2008-06-27T20:18:33Z

this post copied from scott beale's blog... http://laughingsquid.com/paul-addis-pleads-guilty-to-burning-man-2007-arson-charges/#comment-527453 Tom, if I were to put myself in the BMorg's shoes (which I can easily, with my history)... I can loudly and proudly say that I would have LIED and told the cops that it was supposed to happen like that and if we lost the event then so be it. I would have protected one of my own to my death. Nobody goes to jail on my watch except me. Nobody can say what the BMorg could have done or not. I'm not saying what they should have done. I'm only saying what I would have done. And truth be told, in the same way that I appreciate the consistancy of the Bush Administration and the Gavin Newsom deal, the BMorg is becoming like so many civic, goverment and other entities. You just know exactly what they are gonna do. Stay the course. When I say that it sickens my stomache that the descions made from their 'board room' (yup) it absolutly baffles me how all this happened. That man stands there as a monument to my broken heart. Hell is the only word I can use to describe the missed opportunity that is BM. Thinking about it brings me to hell. It's tormenting. Yea, you'll downplay everything and gimme that squishy Berkeley "See it from their point of view..." thing and it's just not gonna work. Those receipts would have added up to zero if they would build the man out of scrap wood. But they don't build their "green man" out of scrap. and to make it worse they buy their shitty wood from Home Depot. Paul Addis attempted to be a hero. Yea, he's a nut job. But really, honestly.... when was the last time you took a risk to be a hero? Ever? Have you ever took a HUGE risk to be a hero? Have you ever even had the chance? If there is one thing that you can not take away from me with the posion of your words and your mockery of my passion to exist in a functional community of persons without commerce... it's this: if presented with the opportunity to be a hero I act without question or fear. We can all be heros. It's kinda why we need monsters. The LLC is a dragon that will be slain by a hero. A hero, such as Paul Addis. Maybe a smarter hero, sure... but if you have lived your life and have not had the opportunity to have your heart burst forth and for you to say "fuck it", and do, simply do... without restriction or weighing the consequences.... to just simply do what is right, as a reaction.... as a equal and opposite reaction as the remedy to the thing, whatever that thing may be... if you have not had this opportunity, then I say you are not alive. I say you are dead. You must be able to be a hero at some point, to someone. No matter how big or how small. No matter what size your audience. You must be a champion. You must have the experience of being the Paladin. To accept the consequence because you did what you thought was right. This is the experience of being human. Paul Addis has checked that box. Have you? This is only one of the topics being presented here. There are many, many factors that contributed to Paul and this sentence and stuff. We can discuss every conceiveable angle. But I would like to say that there is no mental help for Paul in the joint. If you think that there is, you are naïve. Even in a minimum security ‘jail’, as you call it… it’s not gonna help him in any way. My description of jail was mild. I can tell you more. I can tell you about the fat guy who would let you feel his breasts while you jerked off for a ciggerette. Funny, huh? These are the mild things I can talk about. But health care is expensive. So you can literally watch someone’s skin peel off. They’ll give you an asprin. If you think that Paul is going to get mental heath care you are as deluded as he is. Maybe more. It’s bad. Not only worse then you can ever possibly imagine, worse then can even be reported. The conditions are an eclectic mix of 3rd world hygene, corperate bueorcratic paperwork, street-level gang ethics and schoolyard politcs with 250 lb. 7 year olds experimenting with boundries. We are not talking about a law, a wooden figure or who’s a scumbag here. We are talking about a life, a human life. And I can’t help but notice that no one is offering to lift a finger to help this human. We are drawn to his celebrity and we are trained to be ‘interested’ in the human interest story. But Scott will keep posting more crap on his blog and tomorrow we’ll be talking about the new wiget that can connect your facbook to your coffee cup so everyone in Paupa New Guini knows that you’re eating a bran muffin or whatever. I just don’t want to be guilty of enjoying the show without paying for the ticket. I propose that anyone who feels the lest amount of compassion for Paul write me an email and ask to be put on a list. I’ll make an email list and we can discuss doing something to help him. Probably the best thing we can do for him is to actually go visit him, and you can also pay for councling while you’re in jail. You can have a ‘therapist’ come and talk to you. In Nevada it’d be like $50 or less I’d guess. My email address is chickenjohn@chickenjohn.com Please write in the subject line Friend of Paul Addis I’ll make a list thing or just cc’ everyone. Paul tried to be our hero. Lets try to be his. He can be helped. He’ll never be as perfect as Tom, but there is a wonderful side to him. Lets try. And I hope that other people are doing a better job of not being bitter about the deficiencies of the people who run the event that is the ambassador of our lifestyle then I am. Truly. Please, take a lesson from my rage and bitterness: don’t be like me. Forgive the Bmorg for their consistant and irresponsible actions and shortfallings. They are, in their way, doing what they think is right. Replicating my furious bewilderment will lead you down a dark path. Paul Addis burned the man down because that’s the kind of world he want’s to live in. I kinda wanna live in that world too. I appreciate and celebrate his commitment to possiblitlity, although I do not applaud his method or his M.O. It’s becoming harder and harder to create the world you want to live in. Every day it gets harder. Soon, we will all be criminals that want to create the culture of the world we want to live in. We would be wise to stick together. Like glue.

Chicken 2008-06-27T20:18:33Z Tony http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e67b6101-1cb7-41a9-8339-9047a5d1fd72 2008-06-27T20:15:46Z 2008-06-27T20:15:46Z

And maybe we ought to stop blaming the prison system and start blaming the society that created the knucklehead to begin with. Why don't you people run for office. Oh yeah Chicken tried that!

Tony 2008-06-27T20:15:46Z Tony http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#b241950b-6d5d-40ca-8acc-cced35568b82 2008-06-27T20:13:55Z 2008-06-27T20:13:55Z

How? What if something burning would have fallen and knocked you on your empty noggin? It's funny that everyone acts like the borg is responsible for his going to jail. He broke the law. Doesn't matter if he had an excuse or not. You do the crime you do the time.

Tony 2008-06-27T20:13:55Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a2482550-d015-4f7c-ae95-588434cdd47d 2008-06-27T20:10:42Z 2008-06-27T20:10:42Z

spectabillis that question is ridiculous. He set fire to a structure with people inside of it. While I agree with Chicken's post below about the terrible state of the American prison system, and PA's inability to distinguish between right and wrong, I don't agree that he shouldn't be punished. I honestly don't care about The Man having been burned early. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed it and the sense of chaos it brought to the remainder of the event. A wooden statue meant to be burned a few days later is no great loss. I care more about the disregard for the safety of actual people who were inside the pavilion at the time that he set it ablaze. It is unfortunate that in our country we don't have a prison system that rebuilds rather than destroys. It really is. What is the alternative though? Paul didn't make an attempt to plead insanity. He apparently has no remorse. What options has he given the courts that must deal with this in order to preserve order within our society? He has created the circumstances here that have led to his lengthy prison sentence.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-27T20:10:42Z spyral http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fc8aaeba-beef-4115-96fa-15694d91beff 2008-06-27T20:05:25Z 2008-06-27T20:05:25Z

I've said this elsewhere that the people who are cheering Paul on are idiot enablers and cowards. You don't like what BM's become so your action is to egg a mentally disturbed individual to do a wholly destructive dangerous act. It's not funny or cool. Paul is screwed up and sadly our justice system isn't going to help him. In a year or so he will be out and for the worse. I may admire some one who stands by his convictions without backing down but I don't go and pat him on the back for doing something that's nothing but insane. You want to make a statement about the direction BM is going. Fuckin have the balls to walk up to Larry or any head staff and tell them. You like pranks? Shouldn't they be creative, thoughtful and perhaps difficult enough to impress? I'm sick of hearing people talk about this shit. Stop letting others do your entertaining. When are YOU going to do something? Make a statement! Make some art! Get involved! BE SOMEONE.

spyral 2008-06-27T20:05:25Z Bob http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#15f4046b-9d99-4b0c-9c3d-e1497f1f0a15 2008-06-27T19:38:32Z 2008-06-27T19:38:32Z

Yeah, he was just bringing flowers, and lighting a candle. Candles, yeah, it was like a big birthday cake, and he was lighting birthday candles, a big birthday cake and lots of birthday presents for a very very good boy. Then a nest of cockroaches busted open & bats came screaming out & all hell broke loose, frosting & crumbs & candles flying everywhere. Yeah, that's what happened.

Bob 2008-06-27T19:38:32Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#4b313ec7-e6df-407e-8bcf-dfe9c2a5d2da 2008-06-27T19:34:59Z 2008-06-27T19:34:59Z

>Paul's a fuck-up who I personally DON'T need protection from. Except for when you (or others) *DO* need it. Don't forget that part of his detention in San Francisco was for allegedly threatening to shoot a group of high school students the story of which was mentioned in the San Francisco Chronicle article detailing his arrest here. Supposedly a teacher at the school filed a restraining order and an affidavit detailing the threat. Would you be so dismissive towards the parent's of kids who 'd been gunned down by someone like Paul - or Paul himself? So here we are standing on the sidelines and 'tsk-tsking' how the justice system is hosed (I agree) how sentencing statutes are fucked (I also agree) and how the mental health system allows people to fall through the crack (I wholly agree). What I'm *not* hearing and what lots of folks seem to be dancing around here is that given the system as it currently exists how is justice served by NOT punishing a perp for violation of a law. Mentally challenged or not what alternative(s) *are* available to dissuading people to not set shit on fire, destroy property, burn a church or threaten kids with bodily harm. Let me know when Polyanna whispers the secret answer into your ears.

Badger 2008-06-27T19:34:59Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#3b895a28-919c-408f-86da-460fc9fc2cc0 2008-06-27T19:23:06Z 2008-06-27T19:23:06Z

how were they endangered?

spectabilis 2008-06-27T19:23:06Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#5813ccbe-f54e-4b0b-91fb-063fe3f3f942 2008-06-27T19:04:31Z 2008-06-27T19:04:31Z

Paul set the man on fire while there were people below. He endangered the lives of others by doing so.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-27T19:04:31Z ~:B:~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#07427790-5e9c-4c46-a441-3bc999e11860 2008-06-27T16:00:59Z 2008-06-27T16:00:59Z

coming from somebody who doesn't believe in voting at all, what's the point in writing that?

~:B:~ 2008-06-27T16:00:59Z spectabilis http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#3f94c9d7-1f49-4d21-8100-d3a8469bb66c 2008-06-27T13:34:36Z 2008-06-27T13:34:36Z

"Please have compassion for someone who is sick and is probably going to have a very hard time." you forget who you're addressing, aparantly burningman isnt a forgiving or relatively kind community. certainly not one that, shortly after it happened, people were calling for him to be burned alive or dragged across the playa by a dpw truck. certainly not one where many people were posting contact info to the pershing county prosecutions office and judge pleading for a max sentance and blood. what? you thought burningman was this great and enlightened environment that everyone and the org says it is? so much for that.

spectabilis 2008-06-27T13:34:36Z COG http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#dd7ccc01-4289-4470-9302-0c3cb066a9e3 2008-06-27T07:03:28Z 2008-06-27T07:03:28Z

Maybe if the system KILLS him THAT will REALLY keep others from harming property or threatening half wits & inebriants. Some people just need the threat of serious harm to keep them from even attempting harm against us!?! He was wrong, & the jail system is wrong. We didn't even get to decide what should be done with Paul. So there we go. Does that make it okay? It makes it go away - from us. The country doesn't need to collapse for it to finally come to its senses, we need a change of heart, we need a change in our awareness, we need the hundredth monkey to get on board the raising of our collective consciousnesses. If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. -The Dalai Lama- Everyone needs to change, we need to take our lives back, we all need to relearn how to be free people again, if we ever WERE free in this great nation. Paul is just a reminder of who we all are. You may not step out of the lines but you are still part of the problem. We are the problem. We've allowed ourselves to become the sheep. We allow & even condone violence in our name, thinking it will protect us. Paul's a fuck-up who I personally DON'T need protection from. In a couple of months, I plan on going to what has become the most hedonistic, consumer-driven, drug fueled, spirit-motivated, over-policed, lost excuse for a get-together the planet has seen in a few hundred years, at least. Now we need protection from ourselves & the only way we can see to keep safe is to use the very system we are trying to take a vacation from in the first place??? Please lighten up folks its just a party, not a religious movement. Not even a community. We allow an outside authority to take our freedoms & decide how to treat our own people. This is not a community, but it can be a testing ground at times like these - So what do YOU want it to be?

COG 2008-06-27T07:03:28Z Tony http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#6ac90a37-ae99-4052-88bd-cb1c915f60f8 2008-06-27T05:04:01Z 2008-06-27T05:03:34Z

Did he know what he was doing was wrong when he did it? If his attorney can prove otherwise then they can't convict him. I have a feeling he knew exactly what he was doing. And he knew it was wrong, probably justifying it because the big bad borg stopped funding one of his buddy's lame art projects or something. Anyway, maybe it will make some other asshole thinking of pulling the same stunt think twice before doing it. What do the libertarians suggest we do with people who start fires and are mentally unbalanced Chicken?

Tony 2008-06-27T05:03:34Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e0eee813-b484-4a87-b594-73d77d22b927 2008-06-27T03:53:34Z 2008-06-27T03:53:34Z

From what I understand, insanity is rarely pled and seldom works. It's also a legal definition that has little to do with actual mental illness. It's a legal definition over 100 years old, to boot.

Crypto 2008-06-27T03:53:34Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a3b5cc0a-e0e9-4821-b502-e4b0a2ecbb8a 2008-06-27T03:51:50Z 2008-06-27T03:51:50Z

How does anyone behave at his (her) own trial anyway? It's all been couched by lawyers. It's all some sort of performance. It's like some sort ritual drama. PA was probably pretty "real" at his trial, because he's probably too sick to fake it. My mother is always yelling at trial coverage for the ubiquitous "...showed no emotion as the verdict was read." Oh sure, the creepy murderer is going to start crying and tearing his hair at that point.

Crypto 2008-06-27T03:51:50Z automatthew http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#56816d04-75c1-4a72-82e6-e66c660c8990 2008-06-27T03:51:30Z 2008-06-27T03:51:30Z

insanity does and should have moral and legal consequences. and the probable outcome of a relatively young, small, white, vaguely artsy schizophrenic person being in jail for a year is way out of proportion to the supposedly dire risk he put people in. of course he didn't plead insanity. which is sad. "Sorry, Chicken, but I never told Paul to stop taking his medications."

automatthew 2008-06-27T03:51:30Z automatthew http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#ec057b4b-ee01-4fc9-a50c-44207687a6af 2008-06-27T03:47:40Z 2008-06-27T03:47:40Z

so i assume you don't believe that he's schizophrenic? if he is these questions are irrelevant. "And, did he say anything at his trial? Any reason for his actions? Any remorse? "

automatthew 2008-06-27T03:47:40Z automatthew http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#5f64960b-4dbf-4c25-9c74-04b70b54f95e 2008-06-27T03:46:16Z 2008-06-27T03:46:16Z

5'2". *shudder* poor paul, it wasn't worth it.

automatthew 2008-06-27T03:46:16Z Linty's Wasted and apparently armed http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a1ad1455-eabd-4b83-874d-1f318ffa174c 2008-06-27T03:42:25Z 2008-06-27T03:42:25Z

Badger: Huh? What was that? Linty: You were snoring.

Linty's Wasted and apparently armed 2008-06-27T03:42:25Z Badger http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f5c1b8b5-10ca-41d1-a1f6-d839ca854d25 2008-06-27T02:48:46Z 2008-06-27T02:48:46Z

>"It wont change till this country collapses..." Wake me up after the revolution. <snore...>

Badger 2008-06-27T02:48:46Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#2db33903-f32a-4dd7-beaa-d25524e9f02e 2008-06-27T02:38:32Z 2008-06-27T02:38:32Z

"We made him. We put those ideas in his head" Sorry, Chicken, but I never told Paul to stop taking his medications. And I never told him, or anyone else, for that matter,to set fire to someone else's work, and put people at needless risk. Paul Addis is responsible for his own self agrandizing, mindless arson. Feel as guilty as you like, but don't lessen your own sense of culpability by including all of us in it. But one person's sorrow is another's joy. Just think. Somewhere, there is a incarcerated member of the Aryan Brotherhood, who thanks you, from the bottom of his heart, for egging a fool like Paul on.

Zaius 2008-06-27T02:38:32Z Dusty Nipples (Kim) http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#39988e78-227f-47df-aec1-d4e0aace3ad9 2008-06-27T02:31:06Z 2008-06-27T02:31:06Z

Paul is in my thoughts. How I feel about what he did is not relevant. This is a stiff, and in my opinion, unjust penalty. I would have been satisfied if he merely said "I'm sorry", and we all just put it behind us. I'm sending him wishes for his safety and well being.

Dusty Nipples (Kim) 2008-06-27T02:31:06Z Avishai http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#cb964040-c3ee-42db-ad8b-c3a3636ee668 2008-06-27T01:40:25Z 2008-06-27T01:40:25Z

Beautifully put. I'm not one of those on the bandwagon saying what he did was a good thing, etc. BUT having been in jail, not prison, just county for a few mo. I have a small, small idea how crappy it is, and how screwed over you are. Especially for the mentally ill, it's hell. And if we're going to put people in for a time, and have them get out eventually, rehabilitation, etc. is ESSENTIAL for our society. Otherwise it's just torturing people for no good reason, and that's not OK.

Avishai 2008-06-27T01:40:25Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#87e3b397-6b45-4db1-b636-194dfe5c2684 2008-06-27T01:29:52Z 2008-06-27T01:29:52Z

He was sentenced to 12-48 months, so he's in for at least 12 months. The Nevada DoC will establish when his first parole hearing will be; once he's in their system, their web site will list when the parole hearings will be. (I would guess, *with good behavior,* he could be out in 18-24 months.) Paul was already in custody (after the San Francisco case was resolved, he was eventually transferred back to Nevada), so there's no surrendering. From what I understand, at the hearing that was held earlier this week, Paul spoke and he was "unapologetic."

Weazie 2008-06-27T01:29:52Z Zaius http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#d48fce2e-4cfe-47f9-8d93-b09e5ecbc375 2008-06-27T00:16:10Z 2008-06-27T00:16:10Z

If he is in state prison, then, at what point will he be up for parole? When is he going to surrender? And, did he say anything at his trial? Any reason for his actions? Any remorse? Seems like he went to a lot of trouble to get this particular platform to speak from. Is he really so useless, as to not say anything?

Zaius 2008-06-27T00:16:10Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#01ea3c68-f7f6-4de0-8688-1760c4e9f52a 2008-06-26T23:13:12Z 2008-06-26T23:13:12Z

P.S. It makes me sick to there is NO help out there@!!*&^$@^$Q#&%(*&(#*&$(*&@$(*$@^*&^@(*$&^(*$&^!!!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-26T23:13:12Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#3a293fde-d9be-4605-a6b4-062d28be7513 2008-06-26T23:10:53Z 2008-06-26T23:10:53Z

And here is a discussion (thank you Bobzilla) http://people.tribe.net/bobzilla/blog?topicid=f5d67fce-86b3-4534-a40f-1f2e5a167ac5

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-26T23:10:53Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8243a412-68f3-4636-9817-13d24f7d0bdb 2008-06-26T21:39:34Z 2008-06-26T21:39:34Z

And isn't it good only a few care? Otherwise we would see some change...

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-26T21:39:34Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#3dcb8838-65fd-4752-bda0-a384cf6790ce 2008-06-26T21:38:07Z 2008-06-26T21:38:07Z

Also What Paul did was not nice. Most people in prison need help, to bad we actually trade the monies (30,000$ +) created by the false epidemic on the world markets? It wont change till this country collapses (and likely the rest of the world). Isn't it good we are armed to the teeth?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-26T21:38:07Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#515385e8-cc5a-430a-a7a7-185b181b2dd2 2008-06-26T21:21:08Z 2008-06-26T21:21:08Z

I have been in prison non-violent offender (LSD) it is a way to steal the amerkian idiots out of their money out of fear. My motto after leaving prison "FUCK SHIT UP!!!" He wont get a god damn thing there accept PTSD! Now I realize, the best way to fuck shit up is not to raise a finger and to let all the fucking amerikans create and eat shit our own shit includeing myself but then again, I have been a FELON since I was 18yrs, 1990 (never a second offense) so I eat shit anyway... Jobs are hard to find. I am just glad to watch it all collapse(Which IS finally happening thank god) I fucking THANK this country thanks for the 15 years plus of PTSD. And on a lighter note I get to go play and pray for peace in the forest next week YEA!!!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-26T21:21:08Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#a7ecd27e-bd4c-4497-a9ca-7a6045426e28 2008-06-26T21:13:05Z 2008-06-26T21:13:05Z

I posted this on Laughing Squid but thought I'd throw it in the mix here as well... feel free to rip me to shreds and tell me how stupid and pintless and worthless I am. You may also complain about my spelling, and my bad breath. Oh, I'm also kinda cripple. I also have brain damage and studder a little, but it's mostly cute. I will not be voting for Obama... I am sickened by anyone who has a shred of faith in our legal or prison system. Paul Addis is sick. He needs help. He’s not like you or me. We are responsable for our actions. Notice how we don’t burn things down? He didn’t make an error and needs to be punished. He is having a hard time compartmentalizing reality and fantasy. Find some compassion in your heart for “one of us”. We made him. We put those ideas in his head. We ALL talked about burning the man down early. But it was just bar talk, for fun. We talk about what movie stars would give the best blow job too, but we know that we are never getting Uma Thurman to go down on us. Paul doesn’t know that what he did was wrong in the same way that we would. Things get confusing when you’re scizophrenic. So it’s not like he murdered someone for money or put a ruffie in a young girls drink when she wasn’t looking or intentionally struck someone with his car because they were black or something… in a magical world were dreams come true and where things exist that are impossible… in a place where fantasy and reality collide in a confluence of science, sex, baccanallia and home depot to a soundtrack and a lightshow…. it’s easy to see how someone who is either weak-minded or confused because they are so strong-willed could get lost on the path. Paul Addis was trying to be funny. He wanted to be loved. Really. He wanted to be the good guy. He wanted to be against the bad guys. And years and years of listening to me, John Law, Scott Beale and other people he respects rail relentlessly on the LLC he did what he thought would elevate him to an elite status or something. He felt that was he did was ‘justified’ or whatever. But he’s not qualified to think these thoughts or whatever. He needs help getting through a day without SEVERE conflict. I feel more responsable for him doing this then other people, I have come to find out. And why he didn’t plead insanity is beyond me. But before you go talking about property damage or how someone ‘might’ have got hurt and that jail is a place to think about what you did or whatever… as someone who has been to jail I can honestly say that there is no good that will come out of sending someone there. I am happy that most of you will never know the nightmare of what jail is. That you will never have to experience the solitiary feeling you have when you have no rights. That you will never have to appear sick all the time to try to get people not to rape you. To cut your mouth up and stuff to make it look like you have herpes sores so people don’t want to shove their dicks in your mouth. To not have an intelligent conversation with anyone. To ask your friends to stop comming because the contrast of their visits actually makes the time harder. To watch people die of HepC and AIDS with zero help from anyone. To watch gangs brutally attack each other because of shit that happened on the outside as “payback”. To see the steel gaze of the gaurds who don’t care if you live or die and won’t lift a finer to help you. To beg for more solitary. And then to one day have a ‘good’ day on the inside, and feel like you’re losing your fucking mind. Paul Addis is 5_ 2_. I am greiving for him. Before anyone talks about how he ‘deserves it’ or whatever please feel free to understand the idea behind law. A law is one of 2 things: it is an enforcement tool or a deterrent. You are aprehended and brought before the judge when you break a law. But you are judged on your intent. What was Paul’s intent? Indeed. What indeed. We are a community of people. We are in this together. All of us. Yea, you may not like one or 2 and maybe you’re feeling like you can pick and chose who you love and who you don’t but that’s an illusion. Like a colony of ants, we are 1 community of people. When 1 of us suffers, it affects the others. Please have some respect for this complicated situation and don’t always look for the easy path or right and wrong. Thank you for reading

Chicken 2008-06-26T21:13:05Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#dc569be3-67ab-4b75-b5ef-d27b73e91405 2008-06-26T19:55:12Z 2008-06-26T19:55:12Z

Irrelevent. Do you actually think that Nevada is going to give him psych care? Do you think any state has a prison system that's anything less than brutal? Do you think we got to have the biggest convict population in the world by coddling nutjobs?

Crypto 2008-06-26T19:55:12Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#349d1bf5-72d0-4040-99d8-8590d359935f 2008-06-26T19:50:11Z 2008-06-26T19:50:11Z

State of Nevada, not the feds.

Weazie 2008-06-26T19:50:11Z Crypto http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#d19bda14-8149-45a5-b02e-38a1f2bff2e4 2008-06-26T19:45:16Z 2008-06-26T19:45:16Z

<Hopefully, he will get some help while in there.> This is the american prison system. He won't get help there.

Crypto 2008-06-26T19:45:16Z Uncle Sticky http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#e07612ce-8680-4972-8d5b-d24be0b640f5 2008-06-26T19:41:47Z 2008-06-26T19:41:47Z

"If I recall correctly, BMORG isn't prosecuting him, the feds are. " That's correct, and although I'm not sure, but I suspect that the financial piece will be subject to some discretion. I base this on the fact that it's not referred to as a fine. As far as Chickens' comment, I do think that allowing him to "work it off" would be helpful to Paul. I suspect he doesn't have $25,000 kicking around, and spending time in jail isn't going to help. I am not a big supporter of what Paul did, but I do think that this lengthy sentence is harsh. It seems to reflect the belief that the people in the pavilion were at risk. Hopefully, he will get some help while in there.

Uncle Sticky 2008-06-26T19:41:47Z Chicken http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#f52be40c-5bda-45c4-8dbc-7dfb0dc37416 2008-06-26T19:19:43Z 2008-06-26T19:19:43Z

Paul needs help. He is not like us. Please have compassion for someone who is sick and is probably going to have a very hard time.

Chicken 2008-06-26T19:19:43Z Elaine~ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#8c397c44-39f9-4e23-ae7a-be6e46d6ad0c 2008-06-26T18:57:03Z 2008-06-26T18:55:59Z

If I recall correctly, BMORG isn't prosecuting him, the feds are. I also hope he is getting some help for any noggin issues he might be having..

Elaine~ 2008-06-26T18:55:59Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#30d2a323-7ff6-4d44-8f9c-a4d49440ad8b 2008-06-26T18:33:01Z 2008-06-26T18:33:01Z

>If either Paul or Bmorg are smart, that $25,000 could be done in trade. Orange jumpsuit on the side of 34 picking up trash?

Bobzilla 2008-06-26T18:33:01Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fd27d708-0991-47eb-94d2-8e11bdcd90cc 2008-06-26T18:27:20Z 2008-06-26T18:27:20Z

Here's the Nevada DoC inmate locator: http://www.doc.nv.gov/notis/search.php Once he's in the prison system, it'll list where's he's housed.

Weazie 2008-06-26T18:27:20Z Uncle Sticky http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#5f895b0f-9c4d-4284-985b-0e68b4776cd2 2008-06-26T18:24:17Z 2008-06-26T18:24:17Z

If either Paul or Bmorg are smart, that $25,000 could be done in trade. Having Paul help build something rather than destroy something might be good, and it would make the Bmorg look a little less heartless. Of course, I wouldn't recommend giving Paul a torch or large saw, or explosives.

Uncle Sticky 2008-06-26T18:24:17Z Bobzilla http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fe073942-967d-44e2-ace3-32973fa8cc50 2008-06-26T18:21:49Z 2008-06-26T18:21:49Z

wonder where he's gonna do the time..........

Bobzilla 2008-06-26T18:21:49Z Christopher http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fc7d13fb-21ff-4f1f-9ab3-e53f7785ba73 2008-06-26T15:19:02Z 2008-06-26T15:19:02Z

i am gonna burn the man on saturday this year, 1 hour early........... we will see what happens THEN

Christopher 2008-06-26T15:19:02Z Weazie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/69a941ac-ac30-4593-8e06-03db7c11e36f#fa66dc2b-e9b3-417c-9b90-f418119bfdd7 2008-06-26T14:36:41Z 2008-06-26T14:36:41Z

12-48 months in prison. http://laughingsquid.com/paul-addis-pleads-guilty-to-burning-man-2007-arson-charges/ http://blog.burningman.com/?p=1988

Weazie 2008-06-26T14:36:41Z