http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#cda171ad-d971-4550-9e6b-7f18ea5e634b Hey shooter, why don't you comment on my post and how it is full of lies about you? (Of course, everything in it is true but then you probably haven't shot up any bars this year, have you?) Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:21:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#cda171ad-d971-4550-9e6b-7f18ea5e634b Al 2007-01-14T08:21:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#828e32de-063c-4af5-bc09-2862d53a36a2 hey!!! that's my fathers line... "It comes across a little Like, if ya can't dazzle em with brillance, baffle em with bullshit....." Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:26:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#828e32de-063c-4af5-bc09-2862d53a36a2 $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-12T22:26:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#469600a5-24f4-476e-b7a1-f402939b6dfc word. I think this whole thing is so petty and vain. I don't know who's right and I don't care. I just think they should settle it like adults, without resorting to the courts. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:07:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#469600a5-24f4-476e-b7a1-f402939b6dfc Giles 2007-01-12T20:07:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#74607a8d-0201-418e-a821-fb219891a3a7 It's always better to keep the government out of your family. Bare is right, most of us don't know the situation & we don't have the information to judge. Hopefully this can be settled peacefully. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:21:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#74607a8d-0201-418e-a821-fb219891a3a7 Ms. Leah 2007-01-12T19:21:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#1363c68c-a879-4be7-b09b-56e363a914a2 #1: It's my understanding that John left because a close friend of his died in a horrible motorcycle/car accident that happened on the Playa that year. I think he felt somewhat responsible for that seeing that while the rangers were out and stuff, he was asleep at the time, and that the event he helped start and run altogether was totally out of hand by that point (I was there, and it was). He also I believe felt that the some of the other organizer's response to the first death at Burning Man wasn't that noble (there were attempts to pin blame on folks and/or cover it up from what I understand). After the burn Larry also apparently claimed John had embezzled money from the event because John paid and fed the cleanup crew that year (again, I was there, and it was a big ol' mess that no one was really prepared for). So he decided to leave. While I was at Burning Man in '96, I didn't meet John until after in '97, so this is from what I know from talking to him. Watching your friend die in front of you and feeling like it was your fault because things got out of your control is a hard blow to take, so I don't really bring it up much around him you understand. But this is more or less the story I know. #2: Because John didn't start this fight. Larry apparently broke the deal with Paper Man and is trying to claim sole ownership of the name and image of Burning Man. John doesn't trust Larry to *not* try to "cash in" somehow in the future. He even alludes in the interview he gave to CNN about Larry trying to organize some kinda movie deal, and that's what prompted Larry to want to own the name. That's why I wanna hear, from M2 or Larry, why they want sole ownership of the name. I think John is seeking damages to force the hand of the BRC, LLC to come clean, and to force them to come to some conclusion over this. I honestly think that John would have been more than happy to never have to deal with Larry again for the rest of his life, and keep the original three-way paper man thing going forever. But seeing that Larry wants sole ownership, and broke the original deal, John probably figures this is the best way to deal with the situation. John didn't start this or suddenly decided to 'cash in' on Burning Man. You keep forgetting this. But then I'm not a lawyer, and while I know John very well I don't know all the aspects of the case, other than the posted PDF (which I've read) and John's blog. This is just my understanding of it. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:54:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#1363c68c-a879-4be7-b09b-56e363a914a2 Jeffrey 2007-01-12T18:54:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68abf327-4875-4cad-966b-1447a765674b Tapan - if you would like to know about the upheaval in 1996 read Brain Dougherty's book "This is Burning Man" (although I haven't read it myself, I understand that the situation is well represented. I can tell you that at the time, it became clear to many people working on the event (including myself) that Larry was not behaving with integrity or interest in the safety or well being of the participants. Michael was behaving, well, like someone with a messiah complex, and Larry was acting like he had invented sliced bread without actually doing any slicing. I would venture to say that without the perserverance of Marian and Harley in 1997, there would not be an event in Black Rock today. The reasons John left were numerous and complex, and I really would question anyone who says they know why or what his motivations were. But I will quote Larry Harvey from the March 1996 Bay Guardian "If Burning Man ever gets too big we'll just shut it down and do something else." Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:47:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68abf327-4875-4cad-966b-1447a765674b Danger Angel 2007-01-12T18:47:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fe8e0716-6263-4a2a-a6a8-8fd6768db732 "I just resent you comin' along and insinatin' that Johns intentions aren't pure, and that he's some sort of deadbeat dad to all the burning man folks. When most of those folks, like me, don't do shit but pay for a ticket and show up. Which I'd love to here isn't the case with you" - Look at Kat's post above for the unspecified damages that John Law is seeking . Jeffrey since you know John Law so well 1) Why did he quit in 1996 ? Why not continue his commitment to the event ? 2) Why seek 'unspecified damages ' now ? Tapandy Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:33:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fe8e0716-6263-4a2a-a6a8-8fd6768db732 Tapan 2007-01-12T18:33:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#514a1b6f-b5b0-411c-a133-51194691771e i just hope that the result of that action is a new legal structure that is designed with the best interests of the event in mind. the wrangling between larry harvey and m2 doesn't seem to bode well for that though. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:10:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#514a1b6f-b5b0-411c-a133-51194691771e automatthew 2007-01-12T18:10:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#987355bd-24b2-4fa3-90a7-a881ea062b3f Matthew, very much agree with most if not all you points. In the end it's who gets the stewardship that matters. Putting it out to the public domain is probably not the answer that most want to see. As we appreciate the level of protection that has been given to it by the BRC LLC. Putting back into the triad is not the long term solution either. Something can happen to one of the folks and from what I read it violates the contract anyways. In that the folks who own the name should be getting some revenue year-to-year and haven't been, only the costs have been paid to keep PM LLC going. In the long view, forcing this action as it appears the BRC LLC has, might be the best thing to have been done. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:49:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#987355bd-24b2-4fa3-90a7-a881ea062b3f Peter 2007-01-12T17:49:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#83f0bfbd-5e11-4679-91ca-b09aee42a7f5 It comes across a little Like, if ya can't dazzle em with brillance, baffle em with bullshit..... Bare Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:46:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#83f0bfbd-5e11-4679-91ca-b09aee42a7f5 LyingBare 2007-01-12T17:46:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e0104a34-84f1-4e01-967f-6c05115c3eaf "Alternatively, Harvey’s despicable conduct was carried out in conscious disregard of Plaintiff’s rights." Page 24 "BRC, Harvey and Mikel committed the acts alleged herein fraudulently, oppressively and with an improper and evil motive amounting to malice with the wrongful intention of injuring Plaintiff." Page 25 http://www.famouslibrarian.com/ref/john_law_burning_man_complaint.html But maybe that's not uncommon language, I'm not sure. You should have seen the choice words my mother used against my father in the divorce complaint : ) To me, though, calling Larry and M2 "evil" is just laughable. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:45:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e0104a34-84f1-4e01-967f-6c05115c3eaf harriet 2007-01-12T17:45:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#237a7f35-a130-41b8-996e-6344dcdee2f3 ugh. reading legalese makes me want to shoot myself. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:41:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#237a7f35-a130-41b8-996e-6344dcdee2f3 automatthew 2007-01-12T17:41:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#53658fef-5bfd-4da6-9b91-303e60f2cfe7 really? wow. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:41:07 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#53658fef-5bfd-4da6-9b91-303e60f2cfe7 automatthew 2007-01-12T17:41:07Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#7d517373-dc73-4edb-8152-ee21e4d444da Did anyone else read the complaint and notice both the words "despicable" and "evil" used against Larry? I thought that was a little over the top. I mean, you're supposed to be setting out the facts, not calling names. Kinda unprofessional for a legal document, I thought. No matter what a bastard Larry may be. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:34:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#7d517373-dc73-4edb-8152-ee21e4d444da harriet 2007-01-12T17:34:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#154aae5b-4800-4e86-9003-a1dadd8afe9b >>Maybe he should put it to a vote, a vote<< How 'bout Larry, M2 and John just stick to their agreements instead? Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:30:31 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#154aae5b-4800-4e86-9003-a1dadd8afe9b margaret 2007-01-12T17:30:31Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#41661017-6477-4e1d-9168-d8d58c429f37 oops forgot to quote what i was responding to. "Others then went on the change the event to allow it to not only continue on but grow." Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:28:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#41661017-6477-4e1d-9168-d8d58c429f37 automatthew 2007-01-12T17:28:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4d554dcc-68b0-417d-beab-f416991cab11 and i'm glad that they did but we should all be aware that that change is dangerous to what we love about burning man and has to be moderated. the people at brc llc believe that and have tried to moderate the necessary changes as much as they can. but there needs to be accountability to make sure that the event does not further transform in ways that will destroy the experience that we all love. it seems to me that paper man was an attempt to create that accountability and what we are seeing now is that accountability in action. it is not perfect and is complicated by personal conflict but it still seems to me to be part of a necessary process. the question is how can we improve that process. how can a community that is transient in any particular place and has a constantly shifting member base maintain itself? creating a small group to execute communally necessary action seems to be unavoidable and i think that brc llc has done a good job of trying to do that in way that is good for the event, but there are forces involved in the ways that small groups of people interact with large groups of people that are a threat to our event and the executive group has to be receptive to improvement and moderation. and i think that they are, the corporate exploitation issues that they bring up are an important part of the problem and it's good that this is being hashed out now. these issues need to be worked on if burning man is to survive long term. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:28:00 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4d554dcc-68b0-417d-beab-f416991cab11 automatthew 2007-01-12T17:28:00Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a35e2f80-65c2-4505-b2b3-d67687bdc272 "Who runs bartertown? " MASTER BLASTER! Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:26:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a35e2f80-65c2-4505-b2b3-d67687bdc272 Cody 2007-01-12T17:26:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#15e53d5f-497d-424c-80d7-32fb19e444df << Seems to me these were things that John L. were against and I find it somewhat ironic that he's asking for a share in the profits of all he was opposed to. It's not that I dont' think he doesn't deserve anything and I'm sure in the end all the parties will be satisfied. But I do feel he is overplaying the populist stance to get something he wants >> I'm kind of with Matthew on this-- I tend to side with John Law because I respect his decision in 1996. But he never wanted to see the event grow so large, and now he's asking to be compensated for the growth. It's an interesting point, Skylar. You should go over to John's blog and bug him about it : ) http://johnlawspeaks.wordpress.com/ To me, the financial stuff is incidental. I mean, if I'm going to the trouble to file a law suit, I'm going to ask for whatever financial reparations are available while I'm in there asking for other stuff. But I tend to wonder whether the public domain stuff is really just a bluff. I don't think that's the goal of the law suit. It seems to me the goal of the law suit is to have the intellectual property sorted out properly among Larry Harvey, M2, and John Law, and the public domain stuff is kind of a red herring. (I read the complaint, but not very carefully.) Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:23:04 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#15e53d5f-497d-424c-80d7-32fb19e444df harriet 2007-01-12T17:23:04Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#6d3b4e89-45ba-435d-bd90-b452c89e896c .>i trust john law more because of the stand that he took in 96, it was absolutely in the spirit of what is good about the event.< What stand was that, from all I've read he thought the event had grown too big and dangerous and should be shut down and he walked away. Others then went on the change the event to allow it to not only continue on but grow. Seems to me these were things that John L. were against and I find it somewhat ironic that he's asking for a share in the profits of all he was opposed to. It's not that I dont' think he doesn't deserve anything and I'm sure in the end all the parties will be satisfied. But I do feel he is overplaying the populist stance to get something he wants. Maybe he should put it to a vote, a vote by the community who John claims to be standing up for on who gets to keep the name and marks. I know of a perfectly good voting piece of software that was used a couple of years back for another uprising and challange within the BM community :) Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:11:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#6d3b4e89-45ba-435d-bd90-b452c89e896c Peter 2007-01-12T17:11:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f921d0d0-91b0-4212-b6c5-27e55d070c1a and i hope we can trust brc llc, larry harvey, and m2. i trust john law more because of the stand that he took in 96, it was absolutely in the spirit of what is good about the event. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:00:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f921d0d0-91b0-4212-b6c5-27e55d070c1a automatthew 2007-01-12T17:00:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2ed3af34-ebcd-44de-99ac-db90522a08e5 thanks for helping us understand this jeffrey. i hope it turns out for the good of the event. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:59:10 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2ed3af34-ebcd-44de-99ac-db90522a08e5 automatthew 2007-01-12T16:59:10Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e37839a7-4453-48bf-8a96-d6f5515ba1f6 cool! so this is where all you Thunderdome clowns hang out! (pulls up playa mat and opens a bag of cheetohs) Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:41:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e37839a7-4453-48bf-8a96-d6f5515ba1f6 *Doll*Parts* 2007-01-12T12:41:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4a2d8e3b-e918-4edc-8bdb-8c94e23f7069 Did someone say I could get ice cream if I read this shit? Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:29:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4a2d8e3b-e918-4edc-8bdb-8c94e23f7069 Shooter 2007-01-12T12:29:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#55dac788-d63f-4f5d-8c2d-0ad8e1a0e70b well I don't much care for any of them in the "running Burning Man" scheme of things, in that department all I care to think about is me. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:26:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#55dac788-d63f-4f5d-8c2d-0ad8e1a0e70b Erick 2007-01-12T10:26:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2a88b59f-efd4-4e5d-9b0f-ea0e5f5abaac "But why make statements like "He gave a lot more to the event then you probably ever will." - What is this ? Relegion?" Nope. Not at all. "Dude". I think you're taking this the wrong way, and taking it a little too personally. You stated that John was like an 'absentee father' returning to claim what wasn't his due. I disagree with that rather hateful and negative statement, for John spent a lot more time and energy than most on Burning Man, even if it was years ago. So hey pal, guess what. Unless *you've* been busting your ass for the last nine years for free, while also pouring thousands of dollars of your own money into it, no, you're not the 'burner' (god that term makes my skin crawl) that John is. Or was, actually. But still. He spent about 15 years and more money then is sane making Burning Man happen, for someone else (this would be you) to come along and call him some lame absentee father, showing up to claim some prize now that it's successful. When I bet that you don't even know why John left Burning Man in '96, do you? And for the record, I go to Burning Man and I don't do shit. I show up in an RV with an Art Car (that's my Uncles, it's been going since '95) and this year all I did was make a bunch of stupid signs we put up all over and some stupid robot tikis that lit up next to our camp. That and margatrias and mochas for our campmates (art car camp). So I'm on no high horse here at all, you're the 'bigger burner' than I if that makes you happy. Yay you win. I just resent you comin' along and insinatin' that Johns intentions aren't pure, and that he's some sort of deadbeat dad to all the burning man folks. When most of those folks, like me, don't do shit but pay for a ticket and show up. Which I'd love to here isn't the case with you. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:07:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2a88b59f-efd4-4e5d-9b0f-ea0e5f5abaac Jeffrey 2007-01-12T09:07:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d90440cf-31a2-48ba-9fa8-1bd5a72caa7a Jeffrey, I never said that John should not get what is due to him. In fact in quoting the Ben and Jerry example I said that he should 'get his piece of pie' . But why make statements like "He gave a lot more to the event then you probably ever will." - What is this ? Relegion ? His burnerness is better than my burnerness !! This is petty , dude. Tapandy Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:01:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d90440cf-31a2-48ba-9fa8-1bd5a72caa7a Tapan 2007-01-12T06:01:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#882a2b27-d7b6-46cc-b4fe-a6d5f651344f "Who runs Bartertown?" Can we get anyone from BRC, LLC to wear a Tina Tuner wig and scream from atop Thunderdome "I AM BARTERTOWN!!!" while we fight over pig shit? 'cause that would rock. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 04:27:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#882a2b27-d7b6-46cc-b4fe-a6d5f651344f Jeffrey 2007-01-12T04:27:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#0fdfb1a2-5422-4a5a-aa2a-bfd8e6b45322 You are missing the the whole point. 1. John is in this mess because of Michael and Larry who seem to be in a power struggle for the sole control of the BM name. 2. John is asking for them to play nice. We three equally own the name as to the original agreement. If not, then no one should own it. 3. Larry misrepresented PMLLC in licensing terms with BRCLCC which Larry happens to be a part owner in. 4. John has not received any economic benefit from the IP of which PMLLC owns and he is entitled to 1/3 of the profits. 5. BRCLLC failed to pay the licensee fee for 2006, but continued to use the BM name. 6. With IP ownership, it doesn't matter who did what after the agreement. Just like patents, if other people find use for what you originally create and make boat loads of money, you are entitled to be rewarded. 7.In this instance, you could look at John as a VC, and Michael and Larry benefitted from John's early contribution. Michael and Larry probably would not be here today if it was not for John's involvement. John should be reasonably compensated. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 04:16:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#0fdfb1a2-5422-4a5a-aa2a-bfd8e6b45322 $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-12T04:16:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#407bb814-4b9a-46bb-96ba-56b13f84de6b "Of course John Law must be paid the dues that he is owed but the positioning of the lawsuit so close to opening of the ticket sales , the public announcement of the lawsuit, the subsequent silence and the embarking of the trademark - all point to a less than noble intentions." The timing isn't John's doing. For the thousandths time, it's a response to the fact that he's being dragged into legal arbitration over Larry & M2's infighting over the name, which apparently was started by M2. John as far as I know would have been happy to never have to deal with Larry again, and let sleeping dogs lie forever... unless Larry or M2 tried to cash in on the name or image of Burning Man. So you tell me, why would M2 suddenly start fighting with Larry over who owns the name, and why is Larry now apparently trying to be the sole owner of it? "This is like an absentee father returning at the Nobel ceremony to claim that he was there from grade 1-4 and so he deserves the credit for the Nobel price that the kid is receiving. Hey pal guess what ? The kid still hates you and thinks that the adaptive parents are the ones he mentions in the speech" God damn you guys are pretty hateful. Wow. Just because you never heard of the guy doesn't mean he didn't have a huge impact on the event, nor wasn't critical to it's coming into existence. John was there for more than half the life of Burning Man. He gave a lot more to the event then you probably ever will. He's not simply 'cashing in', he's doing what he feels is right in light of the actions of Larry and M2, who started this whole thing. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:35:37 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#407bb814-4b9a-46bb-96ba-56b13f84de6b Jeffrey 2007-01-12T03:35:37Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#eca86bc8-f2a3-4096-9b6d-88e64b3ceda8 Here's an analogy Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield started making ice cream in 1978. Jerry Greenfield the partnership after working hard a few years later. Larry Harvey, John Law and M2 started the Burning Man project.John Law left the partnership after working hard a few year later. When the time came to give over Ben and Jerry to Unilever - a decision that none of the originators favored - Jerry Greenfield was given his dues. He made 19 mil while Ben made 46 mil. The leaving of Jerry Greenfield did not affect the quality of the ice cream . Similarly the leaving of John Law has not affected the quality of Burning Man - atleast not to us who have been attending AFTER he left. He is probably a good guy but we saw Burning Man in its present avatar and DPW made it happen with the BM L.L.C. Of course John Law must be paid the dues that he is owed but the positioning of the lawsuit so close to opening of the ticket sales , the public announcement of the lawsuit, the subsequent silence and the embarking of the trademark - all point to a less than noble intentions . This is like an absentee father returning at the Nobel ceremony to claim that he was there from grade 1-4 and so he deserves the credit for the Nobel price that the kid is receiving. Hey pal guess what ? The kid still hates you and thinks that the adaptive parents are the ones he mentions in the speech. Unless he knows something that we don't - like ..... Live Nation is taking over Burning Man ? Lastly I am concerned about the factor of risk - did John Law assume the risk of any lawsuits brought against the Burning Man L.L.C during the years he was out ? Because the other side of the coin is that simply by being there - Larry and M2 took the risk that is associated with the event. Sincerely, Tapandy Fri, 12 Jan 2007 02:55:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#eca86bc8-f2a3-4096-9b6d-88e64b3ceda8 Tapan 2007-01-12T02:55:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4592ac0b-d2f5-4c36-9035-fbc898b6cd33 Assholes like you are the problem with Burning Man. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 02:52:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4592ac0b-d2f5-4c36-9035-fbc898b6cd33 Al 2007-01-12T02:52:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f2745e6c-b774-4168-957c-dacbff555142 If Shooter is Caleb then he's a psychopathic asshole. I camped with him in 2001. During that time, he threatened people with weapons while high on speed and ketamine. He punched out a friend of mine who showed up looking for another campmate as well. He only avoided getting thrown out of BRC because he was in with some of the rangers and his friends begged and pleaded for him. Oh yeah, later he crashed his car into a structure in a fit of rage. Yeah, a really winner. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 02:35:18 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f2745e6c-b774-4168-957c-dacbff555142 Al 2007-01-12T02:35:18Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fb6da5e3-8056-4f9d-aa97-bc01b129308a Of course, Ryder et al will make money with or without the name. People will come to Burning Man if it's free, I am sure, and will pay who ever charges them. Because, even a Grinch like me enjoys the event. It's almost as fun as the war. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 02:00:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fb6da5e3-8056-4f9d-aa97-bc01b129308a Shooter 2007-01-12T02:00:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#031b4a3e-c896-4e3d-9049-5339cbdb21d2 The *name* and *image* of Burning Man is owned by an LLC called 'paper man' that John, Larry, and M2 set up to own the name when John left in '96. The original deal was that BRC, LLC could use the name as long as they paid the minimum LLC tax fee for paper man ($800). This was to 'protect' the name, so that it would take John, Larry, and M2 together agreeing to 'sell' the name off. OK, so, apparently Larry regened on the deal, and refused to pay the $800 to paper man to keep the Burning Man name on the basis that Larry owned the name outright. M2 filed a legal arbitration, saying that *he* owned the name instead. So M2 kinda started this fight. John was named as a participant in that arbitration, because of the whole Paper Man thing, so John's response was this suit. 'Paper Man', nor John, has or seems to be making any claim on ownership of BRC, LLC who actually run the event itself. John even states on his blog that he is in no way interested in stopping them from doing the event, and even making money from it. He just doesn't want a single person (Larry or M2) to own the *name* and *image* of Burning Man, and would rather it be put into the public domain or put back under the original 3-way ownership as it was since '96. I am not a lawyer, and this is just my understanding of things. Bu tI hope it clears some stuff up. It's about the NAME and IMAGE, not the EVENT. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:25:50 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#031b4a3e-c896-4e3d-9049-5339cbdb21d2 Jeffrey 2007-01-12T01:25:50Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#bab497cd-0971-4f0f-8297-779fdcb3490b >He doesn't feel a single person should. < Is it a single person that would though? Or is it the LLC? I am asking out of ignorance because I haven't read the complete documents. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:12:57 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#bab497cd-0971-4f0f-8297-779fdcb3490b Peter 2007-01-12T01:12:57Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2c6526c2-07d8-4fba-983a-4704b3166456 I know that this is a joke, and I think it's funny. However, John is funding this lawsuit and no one else. Period. Sorry, there's a lot of heated silliness going on here, and things have a way of getting out of hand. And for the record: we rented from RV America last year. They have a little 'so you're going to Burning Man' pamphlet that tells you all about what you need to know, for most folks going to BM haven't ever rented nor drove an RV before, so it's full of basics. And Burning Man logos. Heh. That to me seems much worse than all the hoopla above about eBay auctions... Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:04:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2c6526c2-07d8-4fba-983a-4704b3166456 Jeffrey 2007-01-12T01:04:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#c584e560-b7e8-4583-a0f8-183d2064946c Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. An opportunity wasn't 'opened', Larry and M2 reneged on the original deal the three had for the last 10 years (a deal that kept any of the three from capatolizing on the name) and started fighting between them over sole ownderhip of it. John's not wanting back into the clubhouse, he has no intention of becoming a member of BRC, LLC. He doesn't want just Larry or M2 alone to own the *name* and *image* of Burning Man, for he doesn't trust them *not* to try and sell it in some way in the future. So he's saying either go back to the original agreement or open it up to all. And yes, John is asking for some money if things go back to the original three-way deal. John never made a dime off of Burning Man, and left in '96 many thousands of dollars in debt after pretty much underwriting the damn thing for years and years. And that's not the only reason he left, a close friend of his died that year on the Playa too, something it seems everyone is forgetting here. If I remember correctly, John only got out of debt last year or so. Knowing John (and I do) any money he does get out of this will go to some charity or something anyways. It's not about the money, it's about letting a single person own it. He doesn't feel a single person should. "Sorry, but I'm a bit cynical about anyone who says the only answer to a dispute is to either give them a bunch of money, or offer an alternative that absolutely no one supports. Call me whacky, but there it is." Plenty of folks actually do support going open with it. I do. Completely. There are plenty more. Don't paint this with hysterics. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:00:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#c584e560-b7e8-4583-a0f8-183d2064946c Jeffrey 2007-01-12T01:00:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4bbef793-db54-48cd-be26-6e12e06bf065 I bet Ryder, U-Haul and RV America are financing the lawsuit Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:53:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4bbef793-db54-48cd-be26-6e12e06bf065 Shooter 2007-01-12T00:53:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#abde5dda-0338-4c0c-b8e7-8d0e075808fa I'm not an expert but, wouldn't it be possible to release the Burning Man name in the public domain with a propers license ? Where this license can include, for example... the rules in the survival guide. - No money involved - Leva no trace (no trace of using a name... fun for commercial entities) - Gift economy... >>> Yes but then who would get the money from the T-Shirts? Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:52:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#abde5dda-0338-4c0c-b8e7-8d0e075808fa amanitaman 2007-01-12T00:52:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#74425453-e781-41f7-8bb0-25709712328b shooter, i like your style.are you sure you dont have any Welsh blood in you?you have that "the dissident citizen is the responsible citizen" kind of thing about you Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:50:41 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#74425453-e781-41f7-8bb0-25709712328b simon 2007-01-12T00:50:41Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#76c37194-9d3f-44fb-abc1-96d05bba2411 "Marian wears the pants" Safe as houses Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:47:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#76c37194-9d3f-44fb-abc1-96d05bba2411 amanitaman 2007-01-12T00:47:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#dc5a49a8-c733-4577-aa37-89811bd45109 I THINK your ass is showing. >>> Burners like it that way Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:46:54 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#dc5a49a8-c733-4577-aa37-89811bd45109 amanitaman 2007-01-12T00:46:54Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#36f6d123-2d2f-48ef-ae09-39921a6c51b7 Oh no its Pink Floyd all over again Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:45:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#36f6d123-2d2f-48ef-ae09-39921a6c51b7 amanitaman 2007-01-12T00:45:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d3ad40d3-a03a-4a29-a080-6f230d5c53aa We've created a desert oasis free of corporate sponsorship and marketing>>> HAHAHAHA tell that to Ryder, U-Haul and RV America Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:42:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d3ad40d3-a03a-4a29-a080-6f230d5c53aa amanitaman 2007-01-12T00:42:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#02e82c11-03da-4a26-9bff-5415c1067ef9 Actually, I was paid very well, even more than my boss at the time. It was my workers that got treated like shit on the pay scale. Nothing like a cold trailer, food made in a kitchen not up to code and $150 a week for a 60 hour week. Yeah, winter work for the LLC was fun. Now give me $13. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:34:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#02e82c11-03da-4a26-9bff-5415c1067ef9 Shooter 2007-01-12T00:34:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68ef33e0-2b59-4c16-a18d-de01ae8a4e19 "John Law is posting directly his thoughts on the matter, why he's suing, and such. He says that M2 and Larry are in some legal arbritation over the ownership of the trademark Burning Man, and that's why he's suing for he doesn't trust either of them to be the sole owner of it. So, he says it should be owned by everyone, or it should go back to the three way ownership as it has been for the last 10 or so years." So what you're saying is... he's only getting involved because there's a legal opening for him now that ownership is in question again, and he's saying that the only two choices are to let him back into the clubhouse (which the other two haven't done for a long time since he gave up his claim) or give the name to every corporation in the world to exploit (which absolutely no one wants)? Yeah, sounds like he's got purely altruistic motivation for this. Sorry, but I'm a bit cynical about anyone who says the only answer to a dispute is to either give them a bunch of money, or offer an alternative that absolutely no one supports. Call me whacky, but there it is. Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:29:33 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68ef33e0-2b59-4c16-a18d-de01ae8a4e19 GuessWho 2007-01-12T00:29:33Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#70430a50-814d-4826-b325-348a2ea6c678 the gas truck? oh yeah, the gas truck was fired and replace by an "outside service" Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:43:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#70430a50-814d-4826-b325-348a2ea6c678 Whisky 2007-01-11T23:43:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#91b9fa1d-d922-46b4-b7d7-f64d3e646e97 I still say she was after his money. No wonder Shooter's upset about how little the LLC pays. (okay, that was uncalled for and I know it. Sorry Shooter.) Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:27:59 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#91b9fa1d-d922-46b4-b7d7-f64d3e646e97 Crypto 2007-01-11T23:27:59Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4fbf2e3d-2c3d-41cc-a29a-ba4842138a62 She must've liked the cut of your jib. I just like saying that. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:17:06 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4fbf2e3d-2c3d-41cc-a29a-ba4842138a62 Elaine~ 2007-01-11T23:17:06Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#7aebfa88-7ef9-434e-93f6-9f9eefc97a34 Damn, something important on this thread and they delete it. I can't wait for the BM dating service. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:15:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#7aebfa88-7ef9-434e-93f6-9f9eefc97a34 Shooter 2007-01-11T23:15:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#9aca41af-7cb5-404a-a730-3e1236bff3b3 Thanks, Shooter for clarifying. I was beginning to wonder is all, considering that you did live in Gerlach and had some dealings with BM. am less confused now. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:09:55 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#9aca41af-7cb5-404a-a730-3e1236bff3b3 Elaine~ 2007-01-11T23:09:55Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2c31d7f4-1cb4-496b-a293-42a28b7860d3 >it was some spam about crusing dating sites and how she liked your profile and was looking for a long term relationship< M2, John L. and Larry just got out of one (long term relationship), maybe one of them would be interested... Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:09:53 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2c31d7f4-1cb4-496b-a293-42a28b7860d3 Peter 2007-01-11T23:09:53Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#ac22e070-f4d8-4d48-a878-5b747cf812f0 Even better than that, because she didn't care about the age difference. That sounded so like "I'm going to empty that wallet, old dude" to me... Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:05:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#ac22e070-f4d8-4d48-a878-5b747cf812f0 Crypto 2007-01-11T23:05:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#c40351db-fc84-40f0-b862-bd8c9fd44a81 it was some spam about crusing dating sites and how she liked your profile and was looking for a long term relationship. it also provided her email address. she was apparently from senegal. we've no idea if she was a she or a he as there was no photo. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:53:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#c40351db-fc84-40f0-b862-bd8c9fd44a81 Miss Cheeky 2007-01-11T22:53:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#5070a6b3-b42e-4890-91b9-c63b65616156 corporate censorship strikes again. Could someone repost what the TOU guy deleted? Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:51:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#5070a6b3-b42e-4890-91b9-c63b65616156 Shooter 2007-01-11T22:51:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2d0095a4-06ee-4e38-9817-16d4c8588aef Elaine~ "Shooter, do you even like Burning man at all? Do you still go? " Yeah, I go to Burning Man and I would like to see it continue without being mismanaged by six people. Look here, CNN talks about Marian, the CORPORATE SPOKESMAN. . . So, it's a corporation using the BM Trademark, apparently without persmission. I also live in Gerlach, and see the stuff that they do here all year around. http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/01/11/burning.man.ap/index.html I don't like the way that the company has gone MORE corporate and what they do to the workers and to the community here in Gerlach. So, I have sundry issues with this corporation that I worked for as a full time employee. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:50:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2d0095a4-06ee-4e38-9817-16d4c8588aef Shooter 2007-01-11T22:50:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#38f0593d-f018-4cb4-a4c8-c4813568d902 Hello, Hopefully this mail will find you in a perfect state of mind and good healthy condition. While going through the dating sites today, I came accross your profile which I personally find interesting and charming and decided to drop you few lines just to say hi,I am looking for a long term relationship in a man of your kind who unerderstands the need to love and be loved. I have taken time to see the age difference us but this is really within my choice of age range and I have no problems with that.I sincerely find you and what I have read so far from your profile very interesting and I will like to know and hear more from you. Included here with this mail is my email address through which you can reach me. (susan_fab2006@yahoo.com) I really look forward to reading from you soon. Thanks. Yours Truly Love susan Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:03:52 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#38f0593d-f018-4cb4-a4c8-c4813568d902 $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-11T18:03:52Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f255349e-4b2c-4ba5-a7c8-1a95486dd802 er tribe error reports... am surprised i didn't catch that sooner. yipes. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:14:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f255349e-4b2c-4ba5-a7c8-1a95486dd802 Miss Cheeky 2007-01-11T18:14:46Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b45b99e1-d620-4086-9e17-7f3cb91af954 Okay, I can understand the comraderie angle, but can't one have that without being all over the burning man tribe denouncing the LLC and such? It's not just one bit of it I am curious about, it's the whole of it that seems a bit strange to me. Of course if it is the same person that worked for the Daily ages ago, it might make a bit of sense... all because of the kicking up a storm bit of things. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:14:12 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b45b99e1-d620-4086-9e17-7f3cb91af954 Miss Cheeky 2007-01-11T18:14:12Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#9e696cf6-4c96-47e4-8521-b3b6a7b79e31 <Why are you up in Gerlach surrounded by people working for the LLC?> I think that's it in a nutshell. DPW comradery. It's a real thing, and for various reasons, real if not always solid. I would also say that getting together a group to work for a common goal in tough conditions is an old tradition. Greenpeace, YCC, various religious communes in the 19th and 20th centuries, the army, the Peace Corps, the list goes on. I don't find Shooter's position particularly confusing. And I'm the one who had that ugly set-to wiht him last spring. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:09:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#9e696cf6-4c96-47e4-8521-b3b6a7b79e31 Crypto 2007-01-11T18:09:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a2fc36c0-de0d-4a1a-904d-fe639792188a wow. now that puts things in perspective. what the hell is everyone on about this stuff for when susan55 clearly needs a date? Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:05:42 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a2fc36c0-de0d-4a1a-904d-fe639792188a Miss Cheeky 2007-01-11T18:05:42Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#50e29c4a-0e42-49d5-b280-4f28a9dd1154 "Shooter, do you even like Burning man at all? Do you still go?" I have been wondering this same thing. I had a whole post written out and then I got one of those trobe error report things and lost it. Here is another attempt at what I was going to ask... Shooter, I don't know you except for what I've encountered on this tribe (though I think that you might be the same Caleb that used to work on the Daily when I was going to the UW and I believe made a bid for Mayor) and so forgive me for my ignorance. I am wondering why you are living in Gerlach and spending so much time on the Burning Man tribe when it seems that you do not like the LLC or what the event has become. I understand being disgruntled with former employers and I know of other people whose experience working or volunteering with the LLC were not very good, but what I don't understand is why so much of your energy is still focused on something that seemingly made you unhappy. Don't get me wrong, I am not one of those types who support the LLC blindly. I realize there are pros and cons to how the organization is run as well as at the event. I am not asking you this in some kind of attempt to discredit you because you have a differing opinion, I am asking because I genuinely want to know why. Why are you up in Gerlach surrounded by people working for the LLC? Why are you on the tribe kicking up a fuss when you can? Why not just move somewhere else and just not continue to be so into the event? Like I said, I am genuinely curious... is it just something to do or perhaps you fancy yourself some kind of Edmund Dantes? Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:00:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#50e29c4a-0e42-49d5-b280-4f28a9dd1154 Miss Cheeky 2007-01-11T18:00:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2a75cf17-5c30-480c-8ee3-c8c1fba61528 >otherwise.. it's not our business....< You can chose to make it none of your business but when the LLC broke a contract they made it everyone's business. The case as I understand it is very simple. Payments were agreed upon, LLC didn't make the payments violating the contract a suit was placed it lead to another one. The later one states, go back to what was or release the "mark" to the public domain where it probably already should be since by default it already is because its use has been selectivly enforced. The LLC says "trust us" with the "mark" we have done the right thing. Maybe they have, but when one breaks a contract to take sole ownership of the "mark" I think it's perfectly within the right and responsibility of us the community that help give value to that "mark" to ask the questions; "Why is one person owning the "mark" better than when it was locked in a box and three controlled it?", and "Why should we trust you when you have shown you will break a legal contract?" and, "Why not release it to the public domain with controls that corporations can't profit from it?" Might be a lot of good reasons for what was done. Might be a lot of legal and personal reasons (don't want to have a dirty public fight) why the LLC can't give more detailed answers. But to me, it's OK and not a waste of time that the questions are publicly asked and that people publically do "what ifs". Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:58:19 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2a75cf17-5c30-480c-8ee3-c8c1fba61528 Peter 2007-01-11T17:58:19Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f6cc4563-271a-4e6a-a178-553f644a14fb I've been wondering just this, but in darker terms. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:42:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f6cc4563-271a-4e6a-a178-553f644a14fb marklar 2007-01-11T17:42:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#166af72c-673b-4d64-a8f1-db2c822d3af5 Shooter, do you even like Burning man at all? Do you still go? Not being bitchy here, just genuinely want to know. And as I dont have any thing to do with this lawsuit and actually think its kind of silly, I am just going to let it be. Nothing anyone of us can do to stop or hurry things along, so why dont we go and worry about stuff we can change or is more useful to concern ourselves with. Just saying. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:39:34 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#166af72c-673b-4d64-a8f1-db2c822d3af5 Elaine~ 2007-01-11T17:39:34Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#faba9532-700d-4b86-ae43-7629310198ba Yeah. "Released into the Public Domain" doesn't mean "Giving away to the corporations". The Legal brief doesn't detail *how* it would be given away at all. There isn't any reason in the world that it could be placed under some sort of 'copyleft' for non-commercial use, and run by a non-profit or something to 'keep it safe'. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:24:17 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#faba9532-700d-4b86-ae43-7629310198ba Jeffrey 2007-01-11T17:24:17Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a2833846-798b-429b-bbba-96c750bfe117 "the vision is bigger than any individual party to it. The name has to be protected from the corporate borg culture ready to pounce on it, devour it and devalue it." Absolutely. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:21:22 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a2833846-798b-429b-bbba-96c750bfe117 Fallen Angel 2007-01-11T17:21:22Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a7feb726-8505-4d4d-bc26-63101c23a783 Wow. Your sprit here seems to me at least to be the very opposite of the ideals Burning Man holds dear: Freedom, Individuality, Creativity, and Self-reliance. Seems to me you want everyone to fall in line somehow, and don't care about the details as long as you get to have your fun. I for one would like to know more than a single line from a press release. Larry and M2 are in legal arbitration over the name and image of Burning Man. I'm close friends with John, and I think he's doing what he thinks is best. He's doing this because he doesn't trust Larry or M2 to be the sole owners of the name and image of Burning Man. Because I know John pretty well, and have actually trusted him with my life on more than one occasion, hell he was the minister at my wedding even, well, when someone you know and love says that they don't trust some other folks that you've only at best met a few times, and you hear that those folks are infighting, well, as someone who deeply believes in Freedom, Individuality, Creativity, and Self-reliance; I want to hear the rest of the story and not just blindly follow my friend John's take on things. No matter how much I love John, I wanna know why M2 and Larry are fighting, so I understand why my close friend John decided to sue them over this. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:20:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a7feb726-8505-4d4d-bc26-63101c23a783 Jeffrey 2007-01-11T17:20:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e959831a-2357-4cdc-b200-f9b294ad713a For god sakes people, Steve Irwin is DEAD!!!!! He died. What is wrong with you people?!?!?!?!?! I am Malcolm X!!!! He's dead too!!!! Oh God! Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:01:30 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e959831a-2357-4cdc-b200-f9b294ad713a $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-11T17:01:30Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#488b776f-24d6-46c5-971c-d0344c9a8316 Shooter the organization isn't perfect. The corporate type structure of GreenPeace squashed alot of good people too, yet they continue to do generally good work. Same with BM. Maybe the workers should organize in some new way to spearhead a new type of BM labor movement. I would be for that. The near total divorce from corporate culture is an axiom and a necessity. Fuck the koolaid references. That's an insult. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:00:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#488b776f-24d6-46c5-971c-d0344c9a8316 cowboyangel 2007-01-11T17:00:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e5eddad2-a758-4140-b882-fe8471f5d23a I so agree here Lyin..... just tell me what happens when all is said and done - I dont care to read all these knee-jerk reactions to something we have absolutely no control over... nor a voice in, nor anything for that matter..... our opinions do not matter here, our voice does not matter here.... our wasting time reading and posting on this matter is wasted - and just creates more friction within the group..... 'nuff said, i'm outta this (and all related) thread(s) Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:57:56 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#e5eddad2-a758-4140-b882-fe8471f5d23a )'( Mr Skirblah )'( 2007-01-11T16:57:56Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#db337a08-2c9c-4962-9f8b-e7e74cd04689 but isn't the money that our community pools together through ticket prices going to be used to pursue this litigation? "THIS is the bottom line as far as I can see..... it's between them, NOT 30,000 others.... " Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:54:28 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#db337a08-2c9c-4962-9f8b-e7e74cd04689 automatthew 2007-01-11T16:54:28Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#94be05b7-17ad-4a31-a8fd-8dac50db7dd6 I'm not an expert but, wouldn't it be possible to release the Burning Man name in the public domain with a propers license ? Where this license can include, for example... the rules in the survival guide. - No money involved - Leva no trace (no trace of using a name... fun for commercial entities) - Gift economy... You know... GPL had a nice impact. Here there is even more space for fantasy! A. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:48:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#94be05b7-17ad-4a31-a8fd-8dac50db7dd6 Andrea 2007-01-11T12:48:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b22f9937-f7da-4a26-bbbd-d275a55d120d > . While the concept is interesting, the reality is that we've been fighting attempts by corporations to exploit the Burning Man name almost since the first day we set foot on the playa. Making Burning Man freely available to individuals who would only use it to make money would go against everything all of us have worked for over the years. What exactly have they been working for for all of these years? Are they claiming that they're trying to destroy the corporate world? Are they anti-capitalist? No. None of that seems to be true. Larry just wants to keep the name to himself so that only he can make money out of Burningman. I'm not drinking the Kool-aid. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:02:16 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b22f9937-f7da-4a26-bbbd-d275a55d120d Adam 2007-01-11T12:02:16Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2bc43839-9138-4773-afb6-1d5467bcd3f5 Who runs Bartertown? Looks like Marian wears the pants, and Larry is just a gardener, who tagged along on John Law's weekend trip to the Black Rock. For those of you that defend the LLC, (insert Jim Jones Koolaid drinkers avatars here) you never saw how corporate that they are, and how shitty they treat the workers, like the Nevada Properties and DPW. The event will continue, but the LLC need to shape up. Well, maybe that juried trial will give them all their pink slips. Too bad the LLC doesn't pay workman's comp, or unemployment. As Larry approaches his 60s, maybe he will realize that the blood is on his hands. And you should listen to Tym: He was there from the beginning out here in Nevada, building the fake city you all know and love. The LLC uses your ticket money for a week plus corporate retreat after the event. They have all sorts of other really fun corporate seminars, and they have franchises. WTF? drink the koolaid. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:44:27 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2bc43839-9138-4773-afb6-1d5467bcd3f5 Shooter 2007-01-11T10:44:27Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a3290037-8772-4b42-a01b-5d369d32a56d >I agree with MM. It's working well and doesn't need fixing. < Paynie, MM said one thing which you equate to "it's working well and doesn't need fxing" but what the LLC was to move to say it wasn't working the way they wanted to and thereby they did something that allows others to take legal action. They stopped making agreed upon payments. What hasn't been answered is why they broke the contract. Maybe it was the "right" thing to do but the answers given so far don't speak to the reasons or that only to why they are fighting to keep it from becoming public domain which wouldn't be an issue if the contrat hadn't been broken. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:31:13 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#a3290037-8772-4b42-a01b-5d369d32a56d Peter 2007-01-11T10:31:13Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4c391ae5-9f78-4b60-8c2f-ee05ce79b7e7 What's funny is Larry Harvey can't comment. Marian is his ex-girlfriend. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:19:11 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#4c391ae5-9f78-4b60-8c2f-ee05ce79b7e7 Shooter 2007-01-11T09:19:11Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fd4a8d49-d115-478a-989c-d5e2436a32d3 "First, about this suit. The issue is a legal disagreement between people who've known each other a long time, and it will get resolved. " THIS is the bottom line as far as I can see..... it's between them, NOT 30,000 others.... theres a saying in the military.... information is based on a need to know and you are not part of the need to know... when you are you will become informed... the person airing their grievance in the public domain is just showing bad form.... if 30,000+ needed to know the details of the issues they would have been informed.... otherwise.. it's not our business.... just because we are a part of something does not mean we need the operational details bare Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:09:14 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fd4a8d49-d115-478a-989c-d5e2436a32d3 LyingBare 2007-01-11T08:09:14Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f635a548-5613-4a65-bead-918a386c8a40 <<You talk about how Corporations are killing the world, yet Burning Man is run by one. You talk about how Burning Man is an outpost against madness, yet they are all suing each other over the name from it looks like...>> the vision is bigger than any individual party to it. The name has to be protected from the corporate borg culture ready to pounce on it, devour it and devalue it. MM makes a good point. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:53:51 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f635a548-5613-4a65-bead-918a386c8a40 cowboyangel 2007-01-11T06:53:51Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#83851633-57f1-4840-b33e-bbea4791d4da You're right. I'd like some actual knowledge, not a press release. John Law is posting directly his thoughts on the matter, why he's suing, and such. He says that M2 and Larry are in some legal arbritation over the ownership of the trademark Burning Man, and that's why he's suing for he doesn't trust either of them to be the sole owner of it. So, he says it should be owned by everyone, or it should go back to the three way ownership as it has been for the last 10 or so years. Heck, you could probably call John and he'd talk to you about it. That's a lot more than we're hearing from Larry or M2. I don't know shit about what's going on within BRC, LLC. That is true. I do know John Law however, and believe that he's doing what he thinks is best. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:33:47 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#83851633-57f1-4840-b33e-bbea4791d4da Jeffrey 2007-01-11T06:33:47Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#071f7644-2e95-4221-86c1-4e20ffa7f610 "Basicly its a slave/follower mentality." Yes, of course. Only your viewpoint is valid, all others being worthy of nothing but contemptable characterization. I THINK your ass is showing. Sas Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:18:36 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#071f7644-2e95-4221-86c1-4e20ffa7f610 Sasquatch 2007-01-11T06:18:36Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#14a75073-6b91-4f37-bdf6-06766f32f626 "You talk about how Corporations are killing the world, yet Burning Man is run by one. You talk about how Burning Man is an outpost against madness, yet they are all suing each other over the name from it looks like..." OR...we could all just admit we don't know shit and quit speculating in the absense of actual knowledge. Sas Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:16:09 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#14a75073-6b91-4f37-bdf6-06766f32f626 Sasquatch 2007-01-11T06:16:09Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d9f4981b-b17e-445b-bcb5-7d5d566b10c3 "Wow, for once the org's response wasn't "[insert detractor's name] is a terrible person, let's tell you how [insert exagerated claims of terribleness]. That's why we are the only people who could possibly do this." " Actually, that sounds more like any of a hundred Burning Man "purists" I've read on this list the last few years. Sas Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:13:43 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#d9f4981b-b17e-445b-bcb5-7d5d566b10c3 Sasquatch 2007-01-11T06:13:43Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#87a301a6-e059-41ce-af51-ba88749cc796 If you read the lawsuit, Mr. Law appears to be claiming that defendants may have already caused the loss of the trademarks into public domain. If anything, the lawsuit should clear that up and make any corrections for it, if necessary. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:07:21 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#87a301a6-e059-41ce-af51-ba88749cc796 margaret 2007-01-11T06:07:21Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#262d9c0b-fa72-464e-82eb-49015889c8f1 Yup, shure would be nice if it were all so simple. But it ain't and your ignorence is showing. Ignorence is not a sin- its not your fault that you don't know but nonetheless yours is lit up in neon. The 'vision" of what made bm is way bigger than any of the new agey prattle that gets fed to "burners" by the "official" BMORG machine. If you knew John Law and what he was and is about I don't think you'd make those statements. You think BM was something Larry just pulled out of his ass? Why don't you just ask him yourself? In person. He's not a mean guy and you'd prolly even get along. The event will go on, all that you hold dear is not threatened just becouse someone is being called on their bullshit. Your post (and those of other feverent BMORG supporters) remind me of the well meaning supporters of any action of the united states army. (and i'm from a west point family) Basicly its a slave/follower mentality. Please do more research from all angles then make up your mind, you're missing a lot. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 05:14:05 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#262d9c0b-fa72-464e-82eb-49015889c8f1 tym 2007-01-11T05:14:05Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#effa2593-e35c-43ff-9996-02720d657317 <I agree with MM. It's working well and doesn't need fixing.> That's all that John Law is claiming. Return the use of the :"Burning Man" name to the 3-way partnership and don't let Larry take it as his own, as he's trying to do now. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 05:05:49 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#effa2593-e35c-43ff-9996-02720d657317 David 2007-01-11T05:05:49Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#ae991d72-db93-4183-b164-68f9ebfa1791 John's not out to 'destroy burning man'. Not so far as I know. It's that he doesn't think a single person should own the name and the image of Burning Man. That it should belong to everyone, not just to Larry Harvey or M2. What I'd like to hear more about is why M2 and Larry were fighting in the first place. That's what triggered John to put in this lawsuit, it's the fact that John got dragged into the legal arbritation over who owns the Burning Man name that M2 and Larry are apparently in the middle of. You talk about how Corporations are killing the world, yet Burning Man is run by one. You talk about how Burning Man is an outpost against madness, yet they are all suing each other over the name from it looks like... Thu, 11 Jan 2007 04:56:45 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#ae991d72-db93-4183-b164-68f9ebfa1791 Jeffrey 2007-01-11T04:56:45Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f57648bd-62a9-4d22-81bd-edbbc79e50e8 Corporations are killing the world. Period. Burningman is a big focused outpost opposing this corporate madness. Mr. Law has lost sight of this. That's unfortunate. The vision is too strong to destroy in the manner he has mindlessly entertained. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 04:35:15 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#f57648bd-62a9-4d22-81bd-edbbc79e50e8 cowboyangel 2007-01-11T04:35:15Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b2a7dc21-6ea9-4605-8184-c0193829f4da Wow, for once the org's response wasn't "[insert detractor's name] is a terrible person, let's tell you how [insert exagerated claims of terribleness]. That's why we are the only people who could possibly do this." Thu, 11 Jan 2007 04:30:23 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#b2a7dc21-6ea9-4605-8184-c0193829f4da $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-11T04:30:23Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2e3843d5-73ed-4b8a-90a1-d703ee6327bf I agree with MM. It's working well and doesn't need fixing. Anyone who doesn't like it or thinks they can do better is welcome to start their own thing. I've been to several other BM related events and had a blast, but Burning Man is just something else. I like the way it's evolved so far. See y'all in August. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 04:27:03 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#2e3843d5-73ed-4b8a-90a1-d703ee6327bf Paynie 2007-01-11T04:27:03Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#51b40383-5b5b-4d44-9f2b-dd96da59dadd Who runs bartertown? Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:57:44 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#51b40383-5b5b-4d44-9f2b-dd96da59dadd Shooter 2007-01-11T03:57:44Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68c224e1-94f5-4fcf-b858-11969e46ca36 That sounds more like it. Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:21:01 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#68c224e1-94f5-4fcf-b858-11969e46ca36 $item.owner.firstName 2007-01-11T03:21:01Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#8a45ef54-eab2-4f94-a9b1-c0674012afde Well said Marian !!!! Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:12:38 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#8a45ef54-eab2-4f94-a9b1-c0674012afde Otto 2007-01-11T03:12:38Z http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fc936104-67d0-421f-8e16-f613264867d8 From the BM website http://www.burningman.com/news/johnlawcomplaint_07.html BURNING MAN RESPONDS TO JOHN LAW COMPLAINT On January 8, 2007, LaughingSquid.com announced that John Law, one of the original three owners of Burning Man, has filed suit against his former partners Larry Harvey and Michael Michael over the ownership of the Burning Man name, image, and likeness. (link: click here) Maid Marian responds: On behalf of the volunteers, staff, and board of Black Rock City, I wanted to comment on the lawsuit filed by John Law regarding the Burning Man name, image, and likeness. First, about this suit. The issue is a legal disagreement between people who've known each other a long time, and it will get resolved. Secondly, about the event. We've gotten questions from a number of participants asking "Is this the end of the event?" The answer is "No". We are moving full steam ahead for Burning Man 2007, and we will be back in the Black Rock Desert this August -- count on it. Finally, about the idea raised in the lawsuit of putting the Burning Man name and image in the public domain. While the concept is interesting, the reality is that we've been fighting attempts by corporations to exploit the Burning Man name almost since the first day we set foot on the playa. Making Burning Man freely available to individuals who would only use it to make money would go against everything all of us have worked for over the years. We will not let that happen. We've created a desert oasis free of corporate sponsorship and marketing, a place where interactions aren't intermediated by commerce. More than that, we've created a global community of people who share values of radical self-reliance, self expression, and civic responsibility. Burning Man is more than a place or an event, it is an idea. That idea is worth protecting, preserving and defending, and that's what we'll continue to do while we work out this disagreement. Thank you for your understanding, and we look forward to seeing you at the 2007 event. -Marian Goodell Director of Communications Black Rock City, LLC Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:03:46 GMT http://bm.tribe.net/thread/672112a4-2777-4865-b70c-f00b9b94675f#fc936104-67d0-421f-8e16-f613264867d8 Jim 2007-01-11T03:03:46Z