Tribe.net. Local Connections Neon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#c4f5cc39-3e46-4d93-a66d-981260f5810f 2007-09-11T17:23:56Z 2007-09-11T17:23:56Z

<<And on a related note: the theme this year was actually "Two Men enter, one Man leaves", whatever the BMORG might think :-).>> Oh, I thought the theme was The X-Men.

Neon 2007-09-11T17:23:56Z Ray http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#7a5cf1ff-812b-4499-a17f-b0dcd81b4b99 2007-09-11T17:16:05Z 2007-09-11T17:16:05Z

Awesome! Now *you* inspire me :-). Besides, you're right, I saw a vision of non-linear time on the drive back, and next year really *was* better.

Ray 2007-09-11T17:16:05Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#5a75f922-6f3c-4291-8e19-21c5d6b8ba55 2007-09-11T00:54:16Z 2007-09-11T00:54:16Z

"Which makes my thoughts go around in circles" Granted

Geekster 2007-09-11T00:54:16Z Samsa http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#6a20c768-7a62-49d2-8c0d-5b39bdcf524c 2007-09-11T00:02:11Z 2007-09-11T00:02:11Z

I think its amazing that 40,000+ people get together and make this special place all week and the man burning at the end of the week: A CEREMONY for us to all come together and do something TOGETHER. Everybody....from new to jaded....To be honest I find it annoying that people find the man burning so Disney.....I can accept any thoughts and people have their right to feel the way they do for sure....but I KNOW theres still faith in a CEREMONY.....whether youre OVER IT and think its LAME NOW, or whether youre a newb that is just seeking eye candy, however it is viewed, it is a CEREMONY. Whats so wrong about having the same ceremony every year, the tradtion? Im curious as to how many hard core old school burners feel that its a special ceremony no matter how "commercial vegas disney" it is.....how many have FAITH in the ceremony? That no matter what changes, its still a solid ceremony? It is a symbol of change thru this event, its the one thing that has locked everyone into familiarity since the beginning. Sometimes I feel as if peopel are so interested in being HIP, FORWARD THINKING, COOL, BEATING THE TRENDS, that they forget how special ceremony is in our culture.........and how sometimes its so nice when it goes unjudged. OH WIAT...I guess that my thougths goes against the shennanigans that Bman should be...... Which makes my thoughts go around in circles, as it does when I think about Bman......and realise that ultimately Bman is a great yin yang. Which concluded my thoughts on the burning of the man early: I remain grey about it. WOW.....crazy...grey existing at Bman! =O I was just like, the ceremony will go on, some here respect tradition, others respect the tradition of shennanigans....all of which together make up this crazy event. Hmmm its a bi polar desert where the only constant is change. I still love the idea of a little tradition amongst the shennanigan.

Samsa 2007-09-11T00:02:11Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#0d9ef306-3f82-4f27-b108-f34b71bb6709 2007-09-10T23:42:39Z 2007-09-10T23:42:39Z

Well, being my first year I have little experience to speak on, but it was obvious that BM has changed since I first heard about it roughly ten years ago. I've watched many gatherings and festivals get more commercial over the years, it is not even remotely surpising that with the growth there are less participants and more visitors. I felt a very corporate vibe around the whole thing myself, one of the elements that left a bad taste in my mouth. With that being said, it was an amazing time. I saw fantastic art, met great people, danced to good music and worked my effin' ass off at our theme camp building and rebuilding when we got devastated by a dust storm. I personally would love a more connective experience, but that is just not likely at all to happen at an even that has gotten so large. Rather than regret I never was involved in those times, I just want to strengthen that experience through regional events and by keeping it as strong as possible on the playa. Having a bad attitude is certainly not going to help. As a first-timer who participated in a huge way, I find it unfortunate that some are so negative about trying to help show those who may not quite "get" the participation vibe, or even how to take care of themselves. I actually did not meet anyone who did not bring the gear to survive, and have compassion for those who did not (while admittedly feeling like they are idiots). Some have exposed some of the brighter sides of this, though; is it not good that these people who have come from potentially repressive backgrounds at least get a chance to see something different, even if only as a spectator? How many of them come back next year and participate more fully? As for the wave at the temple, I was shocked at first too, but have also never heard a vocal wave before and found it quite incredible in ways.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-09-10T23:42:39Z Major http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#95f1d628-bfe0-4943-9fa6-d78987dc9110 2007-09-10T23:38:37Z 2007-09-10T23:38:37Z

Start going to regional burns instead.

Major 2007-09-10T23:38:37Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#2b5c903e-66ec-45da-8bdc-0b23dbc76a6e 2007-09-10T23:26:59Z 2007-09-10T23:26:59Z

"Did your mind expand far enough" Next year was better.

Geekster 2007-09-10T23:26:59Z Samsa http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#57b82e16-ea03-4917-af8e-80652658dbb8 2007-09-10T23:20:15Z 2007-09-10T23:20:15Z

"We had a cafe' and it was great fun watching newbies evolve from day to day. The first day we had to call out to get them to come in, assure them we had plenty of coffee, and refuse their offer of money/gifts. The second day they'd come back shyly, do we have more coffee? and tell us their early-week adventures, still trying to offer us something in exchange for the coffee. The third day they're dressed up a bit and have many stories to tell...they stay longer and we all enjoy the coffee and comraderie. The fourth day, we can't remember anymore who the newbies were, everyone is a regular and part of our '07 burner family. The fifth day there are no newbies, we are all burners, hanging out in the present, enjoying the day, laughing our asses off, but we're starting to accept our wonderful neighbors' donations of coffee grounds, tea, and Half-n-Half for the cafe'... IMHO, this is how it works." HELL YEAH! I love how the Bman ethos are spreading to other events. My favorite event of the year is the one and only High Sierra Music Festival: a fucking great party, the CLASSIEST hippy fest in America IMO.....and Quincy, CA isnt far from Black Rock. Well, in the past 4 years, things have been popping up in that festival that are related. Free bloody mary booths....poeple gifting, paying it forward....people participating in the festival other than just going....camps are much more creative....its a great excercise for the music freak culture to witness and be a PART of. For every shit ass shirt cockin yahoo there is another person changing, getting inspired......ahhhh the great yin yang of Bman......its up to YOU whether you wish to focus on the bad or the good, or inspire the bad to be better......As "disney" as Bman seems to old schoolers, it is making an impact outside of Bman. Bee Proud!

Samsa 2007-09-10T23:20:15Z Ray http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#d6515f26-fbac-4166-acac-1c289ce52053 2007-09-10T20:55:36Z 2007-09-10T20:55:36Z

Yawn. I've heard this for years, and every time I laugh. "Radical self entitlement", eh. You mean like "the Burn sucked this year, I wanted it to be different, more like it was last year, why can't they do it the way I want it"? I'm no veteran, I've only been coming for 3 years (and participating my ass off every time, even if you didn't see past my mundane clothes), but every year has rocked even more than the past year. You know why? It's because every year Burning Man allows me to grow in ways I never would otherwise. *I* keep getting better, not the event. If you think Burning Man sucks... look in a mirror. The wave at the temple burn was *awesome* (in spite of what you might imagine under your tinfoil hat, I've seen no evidence that it was "created" by anything other than everyone there, and it emerged in a decidedly "burner-like" manner completely unlike anything I've seen in mass culture... at least if you were really paying attention). Can't *completely* blame you, though... I was appalled at first too. Did your mind expand far enough to see it? No? Now *that* is a tragedy. And on a related note: the theme this year was actually "Two Men enter, one Man leaves", whatever the BMORG might think :-).

Ray 2007-09-10T20:55:36Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#1c12b1be-9ab4-4ec8-acaa-83d6c07abbbe 2007-09-10T05:36:53Z 2007-09-10T05:36:53Z

Yeah, I always tell virgins to light themselves up like a fucking christmas tree. But that is more so I can tell who they are than anything else.

Geekster 2007-09-10T05:36:53Z tepescuintle http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#409eaca0-4889-40ff-b0e3-420eb560600a 2007-09-10T05:29:55Z 2007-09-10T05:29:55Z

>> I did observe a significant rise in the number of unlit, lost looking individuals. those were the old timers.

tepescuintle 2007-09-10T05:29:55Z Steve http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#2ce815ce-f026-4c8d-a208-7e98f4699de8 2007-09-10T05:22:55Z 2007-09-10T05:22:55Z

Ditto with J9 JMF. What did I do? I taught three classes doing something I had never done before in my life and during those classes I had a fucking blast. I worked for two full days building a theme camp and making new friends. I cooked dinner for my campmates one night. I performed at four events (drumming), one at Spikes, one at Center Camp, one at Lost Penguin and at the Burn in the Great Circle. s

Steve 2007-09-10T05:22:55Z DzrtRat67 http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#d2e5c335-5a96-4347-896d-90096b29a7cc 2007-09-10T05:05:46Z 2007-09-10T05:05:46Z

_ _ ".........and this years' yahoo is next years theme camp" Nice little nugget there. Never thought of it like that. (always preferred "This year's yahoo is somewhere else next year") Thanks!

DzrtRat67 2007-09-10T05:05:46Z Sasquatch http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#39956135-1277-4224-b352-2b5192d89d36 2007-09-10T04:15:36Z 2007-09-10T04:15:36Z

"We don't really have a community anymore..." By We do you perhaps mean You? I ask because my community is very much intact and reaches out to new folk to learn about them and vice versa. Sas

Sasquatch 2007-09-10T04:15:36Z Neon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e98aa6ed-c4d6-47b6-adb3-e88b84d56477 2007-09-10T02:04:10Z 2007-09-10T02:04:10Z

We were all virgins once.

Neon 2007-09-10T02:04:10Z Playa Mama & http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b514f850-29df-4664-8631-6060f40cfd8c 2007-09-09T00:11:49Z 2007-09-09T00:11:49Z

I think there is a syndrome with newbies where they don't really know what they are getting into and they walk around with their jaws hanging open. They should be forgiven for it. It is pretty overwhelming your first time. This year was my husband's first year. He started the countdown for the next Burn on Sunday and spurting ideas from his brain. You've got to realize, this is a guy who is NOT artistic. We know have an art project that we are working on and he is designing an art car. Grant it they aren't huge (as we do not have time or funds for that) but both are participatory for people out on the Playa. He went straight into immersing and it is a beautiful thing and the best part is we get to work on it together.

Playa Mama & 2007-09-09T00:11:49Z Neon http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#9c878245-a354-4117-aac4-4ae7f25fd994 2007-09-09T00:06:26Z 2007-09-09T00:06:26Z

We had a cafe' and it was great fun watching newbies evolve from day to day. The first day we had to call out to get them to come in, assure them we had plenty of coffee, and refuse their offer of money/gifts. The second day they'd come back shyly, do we have more coffee? and tell us their early-week adventures, still trying to offer us something in exchange for the coffee. The third day they're dressed up a bit and have many stories to tell...they stay longer and we all enjoy the coffee and comraderie. The fourth day, we can't remember anymore who the newbies were, everyone is a regular and part of our '07 burner family. The fifth day there are no newbies, we are all burners, hanging out in the present, enjoying the day, laughing our asses off, but we're starting to accept our wonderful neighbors' donations of coffee grounds, tea, and Half-n-Half for the cafe'... IMHO, this is how it works.

Neon 2007-09-09T00:06:26Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#710927fe-b6e4-4f75-ba49-4e605f433df7 2007-09-08T23:53:21Z 2007-09-08T23:53:21Z

It is generally around 50% most every year. Say 50% and you won't be off by much.

Geekster 2007-09-08T23:53:21Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#650b7f26-5864-4f79-b7df-8c64079a3957 2007-09-08T23:23:20Z 2007-09-08T23:23:20Z

Does anyone know what the ratio of newbies to returners was this year. A census volunteer told me 50% but I have not seen that verified. I did observe a significant rise in the number of unlit, lost looking individuals. ALL the newbies I met were very sweet and eager to get involved. One thing I did see that bothered me was on Thurs. near Artic around 10:30 am. A group of 20 well dressed (clean) older men and women were being given a tour by an equally clean and well dressed young man. About a dozen of them, mostly beer bellied men were in constant photo taking mode of nearly dressed young women, without consent. They passed the Ranger area and waved. Who or what was that?

$item.owner.firstName 2007-09-08T23:23:20Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#5de9c16c-79d0-47ee-b8d5-afbcc15294f3 2007-09-08T23:12:59Z 2007-09-08T23:12:59Z

"My personal 'gifting' was more to do with food and drink - everyone got a fresh cup of coffee in the morning, everyone in our small camp got hot food in the evening" Aly, ok, that right there... AMAZING gift IMO. fFom what I've seen people are seriously hurting for a cup of coffee in the morning. and a hot meal in the evening, after a day of dry food and dust is like gold.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T23:12:59Z eliptikal http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#19e5c661-504c-4a05-90fc-f4a33a187a38 2007-09-08T23:07:53Z 2007-09-08T23:07:53Z

I think it's inevitable. Nothing succeeds like excess, and there's plenty of excess. Each year is bigger than the last, and each year dilutes the spirit a little more. It will be interesting to see who pulls the plug first... does the community allow The Hat to pull the plug, or does the community pull the plug on its own. Lazarus Long said that when the time comes you have to be willing to shoot your own dog. I wonder if the community will have enough respect for themselves to shoot The Man when it's time.

eliptikal 2007-09-08T23:07:53Z Speedingpullet http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#d609591d-1bbf-4618-b52b-b2d40a1e579d 2007-09-08T23:02:30Z 2007-09-08T23:02:30Z

hmm...crappy swag...made some beaded bracelets that never saw the light of day...guilty as charged ;-) We were virgins this year - fortunately - in a camp mainly full of old timers, who had put the fear of lil' Baby Jebus into us about being prepared. So we were and then some. Didn't really costume up (and in hindsight I wish we'd made more of an effort, but were too overwhelemd with getting the tents, rebar, water, food, bikes, el-wire stuff this time to indulge in great clothes - next time, eh?). Helped with the main camps erecting of shade structures and shower units (man, those were good showers) and helped taking them down again at the end. My personal 'gifting' was more to do with food and drink - everyone got a fresh cup of coffee in the morning, everyone in our small camp got hot food in the evening (and so did a lot of the larger camp, should they wander in around dinner-time). Kept our kitchen area as clean as possible what with the wind and dust storms. And offered lashings of cold beer as gifts and to anyone who wanted one. I might not have been the prettiest butterfly in the bunch, but you could always get something to eat or drink from our kitchen. Hopefully, for a virgin, this was just enough not to be a drain on others. Next year? Well, EL-wire goes on everything...and we're trying to figure out a way of doing a small art car...you live and learn ;-)

Speedingpullet 2007-09-08T23:02:30Z eliptikal http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#77fa5448-2c7b-42a7-b002-b87d78e9eac2 2007-09-08T22:48:48Z 2007-09-08T22:48:48Z

I really like these posts you put up. So many people are so caught up in trying to "out-burn" one another that they've forgotten that it can be an internal journey as well. It's a radical event because it's happening. Some may have become jaded because they are inside the tent looking out. From outside the tent it's still very radical. Images of the playa and stories from it may have become part of the puppet show on CNN, but the reality that it is happening still moves people to wonder about shaking off the shackles of their lives. Just for a moment maybe, but in that moment The Man has accomplished something... he casts a long shadow. I wish people would *not* be so fixated on building the bigest flaming penis on the playa, and start worrying a little more about their camp mates and their fellow BRC citizens. A year without theft or death in a city the size of BRC? Now that would be fucking radical.

eliptikal 2007-09-08T22:48:48Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#ed01e055-39b4-4896-9aec-b4a7159292e4 2007-09-08T22:32:29Z 2007-09-08T22:30:55Z

You know it's just a thought, but maybe we are in need of a new citizen info center/survival area. I would much rather donate 25 gallons of water and supplies to a center for the people who just didn't get everything right the first time........................ Then make a bunch of crappy swag that people are going to throw in a drawer when they get home and never see again. Personally, I would make then work for what was being being donated to them, have them pick up trash or go put some time into an art project. (connect them to the community, some how) But that is just me, but in doing so, I think it would make them think about others and how they participate in the event and it would make them rethink their choices in what they bring the next year. (maybe a bit of a deterant for free loading) Who know's I'm a bit of a bitch

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T22:30:55Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#59923f6b-8bbb-4ea8-87bd-9ba05028ad93 2007-09-08T21:38:10Z 2007-09-08T21:38:10Z

The best thing, in my opinion, a virgin can do is: Arrive with ALL the shit they are going to need for the week. They should have enough to be completely self-sufficient. We had a pair of virgins arrive at our camp (friends of a long-time member) who "had heard" that they really didn't need to bring much. That people would feed and water them. They finally understood that any food and water THEY got was a result of someone else bring enough for themselves and a little extra to share. Pick up their shit and don't leave a mess. Be prepared to set their own area up themselves and if they get help, all the better but configure yourself in such a way that you can do it yourself if help isn't available. Configure your shit in such a way as to withstand the elements. Don't come with pin stakes that are going to pull out in the first large gust of win. In other words, my advice to a first timer is more about survival and prep for the elements so they are self-sufficient, not a burden on their neighbors and free to explore without a lot of worry. I also encourage them to interact with others and offer suggestions such as going to the BRC post office and getting some mail to deliver. This gives them a non-creepy reason for going to other camps and meeting people. As for volunteering and a bunch of art and costumes and stuff, I really don't mention any of that. They will pick that up as they go along.

Geekster 2007-09-08T21:38:10Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#896616f4-0bea-4433-9dc4-719948db2c6e 2007-09-08T21:36:36Z 2007-09-08T21:29:06Z

"this is my first time, and I heard that your first time you should really just enjoy it and not try to make something yourself." I don't tell people that, but I do generally tell virgins that the best thing they can do for the event is to take care of themselves and their own needs, and to participate by giving of their time when they get there. Unless they are an artist by trade or experienced with wilderness camping, I recommend that they focus on self-reliance and survival skills to avoid becomming a burden on the community, as well as to give them something to ground themselves since there is SO much to learn and do when preparing for BM. I suggest that instead of rushing to fulfill everything -- which usually results in crappy trinkets for gifts and hasty plywood "art" -- that they give gifts of their time, that they participate by helping others set up camp or build art. For many people I've met it's overwhelming learning about shade, shelter, grey water, lighting, food prep, garbage, general extremes of desert camping. Then there's the pressure to costume, which is entirely new to some. Then to have to learn a creative skill on top of that. Then to have to deal with the chaos and new social elements once you get there. Rather than have them meltdown or add to the mess with slapdash efforts, I've found it's best to just say start simple and give of yourself.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T21:29:06Z ↁªɮºɱɮ http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#1a916990-6148-4ba5-b8f1-2ffdbd93276d 2007-09-08T21:26:36Z 2007-09-08T21:26:36Z

I respectfully disagree. I believe virgins should be our guest. If they feel inclined to participate, so much the better. But I recognize the possibility that virgins maybe overwhelmed by TMI, heat, altitude and other factors, so I cut them a break and hope they absorb it, get it and spread it at their level of understanding and integration, not mine.

ↁªɮºɱɮ 2007-09-08T21:26:36Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#374775f8-4642-44c4-a89f-948bef3a8e06 2007-09-08T21:13:01Z 2007-09-08T21:13:01Z

"we need to establish some expectations" no we don't. I tell virgins not to worry much about the first year, don't get over extended, get out and see as much as possible and they will be overflowing with ideas for the next year.

Geekster 2007-09-08T21:13:01Z Uncle Sticky http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#bd7bfe80-ff14-471d-9cb2-e8cc7591f1f7 2007-09-08T18:52:11Z 2007-09-08T18:52:11Z

Maybe it just hit me and my camp especially hard this year, and we weren't around in 1996. I know it's probably funny from your perspective to hear relative newcomers talking about the event changing drastically in bad ways, but for my previous three burns, I always had the Best So Far attitude. Even last year, which entailed a lot of interpersonal strife and personal tradgedy, it was the best burn, even if it wasn't MY best burn. If you read my old posts re; yahoos and newcomers, you'll see that I've taken the attitude that the event changes and improves people, and this years' yahoo is next years theme camp, but I don't feel that the event offered up those random, transcendent moments this year, and I feel that was in large part due to the way the event changed. Que sera sera. I hope it's not bitching, but I think there's some venting, and some mourning, here.

Uncle Sticky 2007-09-08T18:52:11Z Gold Guy http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#5125e6a2-2823-4ca1-92be-1fe544eb99f6 2007-09-08T03:54:49Z 2007-09-08T03:54:49Z

No, and I always tell virgins that they must do something creative, help, or volunteer in some way. That a costume is not enough to contribute to the event. Of course there is no requirement of participation, but we need to establish some expectations.

Gold Guy 2007-09-08T03:54:49Z veganskater http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#2227902c-124c-471f-9551-158445470145 2007-09-08T03:42:48Z 2007-09-08T03:41:50Z

Amen, amen. Speaks for me. :) (re: True's post "I actually liked the aural temple wave...")

veganskater 2007-09-08T03:41:50Z gatordog http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#0df4a6f1-d6e7-42c8-a1ab-053a2ea1531d 2007-09-08T03:36:54Z 2007-09-08T03:36:54Z

I talked to at least five if not ten first timers this year who said in nearly exact words: "this is my first time, and I heard that your first time you should really just enjoy it and not try to make something yourself." Where the hell did that theory come from? Is it written down somewhere? I was surprised to here it once, but to hear it multiple times in nearly the same words from people who don't know each other was really screwed up. Has anyone else heard this awful idea spread?

gatordog 2007-09-08T03:36:54Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#93511b41-ec7c-4746-939d-7029e4750432 2007-09-08T03:16:24Z 2007-09-08T03:08:43Z

CTP.. In referance to the art.. I never said that their wasn't any really great art., Cyber punk tree house was one mentioned earlier, and so were other. but what is making me upset is the burnen falls on one group of people. I heard time and time again. How it wasn't the same without the flame lotus girls.You even said your self thought that the oil derick was over the top and excessive. (las vegas). I think the city needss to be changed to accomidate everyone. more common areas to provide for each other. I also think the art should come into the city and be more intimate and personal.. These are just my thoughts As far as my camp goes and it's private partys. I worked for 4 days and I didn't even get to sit down and enjoy it. My concern is that as the old timer rally together it leaves a gap in the community between the ahaves and the have nots. Maybe it should be an expectation of every theme camp to have a party.. so everyone can play.. PS on'y one event was by invite.. the rest was gifted all week.. 2 were open to everyone..

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T03:08:43Z CTP http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e31078cc-ab74-40c8-b912-bf89924c5810 2007-09-08T02:47:32Z 2007-09-08T02:47:32Z

<<<The ten principles need to include a new statement; Please stay home if you have nothing positive to add other than bitching about how great it used to be. Start your own event.>>> trouble is, those who take the time to read the ten principles probably didn't need to, and those who really ought to probably never will. I can't tell you how many people came through my playa bike shop over all the years I ran it, with the most crazy notions, and when I suggested they read up on some stuff like the ten principles or the survival guide they just scoffed at the notion. Why should they have to read and follow something? This is just like any other concert or festival, right? They drop litter all the time and the event still happens, right? They forget (or don't bother) to bring water, or food, and their neighbors give them some...that's what it's all about right? Gifting....right? J9 - parties are now invite only because we are a city of >40,000 and no one brings enough to handle the kind of crowd that an open invitation might bring. With the increase in population we get an increase in assholes and yahoos, and even if you brought enough stuff to share with thousands of people it might be very hard to deal with the extra yahoos that might come to the party. Your very own camp does everything by invite only for these very reasons. Lack of "barriers to entry" killed organized bike repair in BRC. As far as the art is concerned, there was SOOOO much great art this year...including the piece I was blessed to get to work on. I had so many wonderful interactions with friends and strangers. Had many great adventures, and saw many things I will never forget. All in all an amazing year...already planning for next year. If I had kept my bike repair camp going like it was I would have ended up hating burning man. I think everyone needs to change up their routines out there...everyone I know who hasn't has gotten very soured at some point. =========== ps - the not bothering to bring food and water and other stuff, and the not reading the survival guide - I've personally seen it in my camp time and time again, in my neighbors' camps, and in friend's camps. Every year (and not just recently) droves of kids come to BRC woefully unprepared, expecting to attend a real cool party their friends told them about. There is no "responsibility test" to get thru the gate...all you need is a ticket or to sneak in.

CTP 2007-09-08T02:47:32Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#77cf4432-c215-424f-805a-8fc4e2697b67 2007-09-08T02:39:27Z 2007-09-08T02:38:23Z

"Perhaps Larry's vision is that the large and small gathering will complement each other". Well then that is what needs to be beaten in to Larry’s head until he understands what the community wants. BM is not Larry Harvey he is a figure head of all we do. at some point the evolution of the event has to reflect the communities needs and wants. This Year was not a refection of what the community needed.... It was a bunch of people fronting money with their own agenda. If he continues to make bad choices that do not reflect the communities needs the main event will suffer and screw up any hopes of any regional event.

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T02:38:23Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#dc310f9b-44b2-4588-a0db-00873c0f51b1 2007-09-08T02:35:58Z 2007-09-08T02:35:58Z

"The sheer scale of the event makes it incompatible with the ideals that spawned it. " I brought this up in the thread on trash. or rather, the possibility of it. I do wonder if it's possible to (a) inform such a large population of the ideals and (b) have such a large population put them into practice. If the event gets the point where that can't be done I'm of the opinion that either the plug needs to be pulled or the ideals need to be dropped and the event becomes something different entirely. Otherwise it becomes empty or hypocritical.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T02:35:58Z Gold Guy http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b23e7861-67f5-469e-8c10-9e5956ced4e9 2007-09-08T02:27:16Z 2007-09-08T02:27:16Z

I'm not sure it is inevitable, but other than that I agree. The sheer scale of the event makes it incompatible with the ideals that spawned it. It is also true that both can exist. Many of us attend smaller burner spin offs that provide the connection of community, spontaneity, and freedom that the huge event can't provide. Some of us still attend the massive event for what it gives us... art, spectacle, and a larger community. Perhaps Larry's vision is that the large and small gathering will complement each other.

Gold Guy 2007-09-08T02:27:16Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b9d7602f-430e-4628-a3e1-7e1075e66def 2007-09-08T02:23:43Z 2007-09-08T02:23:43Z

P.S I don't wear any panties on the playa... too much chafing :-)

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T02:23:43Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#986036f4-2801-48cc-9066-86cd5381d826 2007-09-08T02:20:47Z 2007-09-08T02:20:47Z

OK my dear I turn my participation over to you... Please show me something special! You now have contol of the anomoly called burningman :-) The future of the event is in your hands :-)

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T02:20:47Z David http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b2d28674-9591-46f2-9b23-1f264542d28a 2007-09-08T02:17:29Z 2007-09-08T02:17:29Z

<BM is not a spectator event...> It is now. That's what happens when an event ages and becomes big. I'm not faulting the event actually, because it has the power to bring people into a different frame of mind that I think is healthy for them -- away from their 8 to 5 world, their daily grind, their middle of the road thinking. At BMan they're exposed to things they don't see in their default lives. That's important, and it needs to continue. For people more into a participatory event, it's time to look to smaller events. As Larry Harvey has said (much to Maid Marian's dissatisfaction), the regionals will eventually replace the big event. I think this is true. Maybe in a few years it'll be time to bring in some rock bands and sell the event to Clear Channel and make it into another Calexico. Then Larry, Michael Mikel, and John Law can disperse the profits into local arts events, and Maid Marian can go produce the Clear Channel Man event. It's inevitable.

David 2007-09-08T02:17:29Z Bay Area http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e46ab696-5e16-41f4-a240-b21477e909fe 2007-09-08T02:14:04Z 2007-09-08T02:14:04Z

You are just noticing this now? It has been a tourist attraction for the last several years.

Bay Area 2007-09-08T02:14:04Z X24 http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#00325be3-f088-4885-90c4-e1d119f0bc71 2007-09-08T02:09:32Z 2007-09-08T02:09:32Z

J9 JMF, You do live in a bubble and have that suck ass Burner attitude. I hate that whole I am a burner so if your there you must look exactly like me, talk like me, Do everything I do because if you don't your not a burner. If you have lived in other countries and done all you claim then be humble and realize that what happened there is counter culture, and is NOT happening most anywhere else if it is happening anywhere else. Maybe you have worn your life span on the playa out? Was I being a spectator when I was wearing the clothes I wear everyday? Was I a spectator for coming and looking at an amazing world built around me for a week? was I a spectator because I particapated when and where "I" felt "I" should for whats relevant in my life? Was I a spectator and WRONG for being ME? I think your attitude sucks and at heart your not a burner but more of the sheep, hence your panties being in a wad!

X24 2007-09-08T02:09:32Z Claire http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e3647e3b-c865-4bd8-b231-9c57e414848e 2007-09-08T01:54:50Z 2007-09-08T01:54:50Z

ms.dynomite, as usual, i'm right there with you. i climb around on artwork, but i don't make it. i've only ridden in an art car once. i don't buy ice or coffee. what i do at burning man, mostly, is be with people i adore. i teach classes (four this year), I take advantage of opportunities to interact. I support my fire-spinner friends and lie on my back watching meteors and talking with friends. It's all action. If we're narrowing "participation" down to making-art-going-to-jiffy-lube-driving-a-dangerous-art-car-with-your-pubes-on-fire, then fuck you all. but if we're allowing people to participate however they like...say, radical self-expression and inclusion, then count me in.

Claire 2007-09-08T01:54:50Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#3f3cbef6-dc6e-4171-83f0-90c520bd467a 2007-09-08T01:48:29Z 2007-09-08T01:48:29Z

okay, I got a little lost there, now I see what you meant. Temple burn a Chevy pickup pulls up. Family bails out of the truck and sets up a ring of camp chairs. Then one of the family gets on a golf cart (there were no org laminates on the people, no staff stickers on the golf cart, no magnetics, cautions, or staff stickers on the pickup.) and drives up shooing people out of their way so they can drive the golf cart closer. Then they climb up on the cart so they can see over the heads of the people standing. I really didn't say anything but I did express to one of my campmates my disappointment when one of the people on the golf cart decided to stand up. My ex and mother of my kids died in June and I put some stuff of hers in the temple and I wanted to see it burn. One of my campmates went over and said something quietly and he sat down. I didn't pitch a bitch about it because I thought it might have been family of someone who had died or something and they had possibly only come for the temple burn. It just seemed strange to see a default world pickup truck pull up and the occupants shooing the other participants aside. It looked like something out of a "Vacation" movie. The Grizwalds do Burning Man.

Geekster 2007-09-08T01:48:29Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#7961a250-f816-4eb1-82eb-585c1989ffbd 2007-09-08T01:42:28Z 2007-09-08T01:42:28Z

God damn it skyler.. your another person I didn't see on the playa this year... Fuck :-) hope your well :-)

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T01:42:28Z Gold Guy http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#ffa1fa50-0524-4791-84e8-4462a309cf8a 2007-09-08T01:41:33Z 2007-09-08T01:41:33Z

>> Nice women never changed history :-) No, but they did just about everything else ;-)

Gold Guy 2007-09-08T01:41:33Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#0a682b9c-e8d6-49d4-9117-4491007308c1 2007-09-08T01:37:46Z 2007-09-08T01:36:50Z

Dear I do not live in a bubble I have lived in 10 countries and I have spent my life studying subcultures, and cultural anthropology.. Yes, we all have our version of perception verses realty. But mine comes very a very educated and academic stand point. Now play nice dear.

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T01:36:50Z Peter http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#a071e0c3-220a-4b34-8aaf-96168177372d 2007-09-08T01:37:34Z 2007-09-08T01:37:34Z

>It just seems to me that our counter-culture festival is becoming Nevada's next tourist attraction, for me it is evolving in a direction that is much too main stream for my taste.< You are not alone in your view... among others, the BLM sees it that way and has re-classified the event as a commerical event as opposed to an organized event that it has thus far been classified as. Can't say that I will rally behind the org if they fight it... they brought it to themselves. Unfortunately will it may reduce their profit margins somewhat we are the ones that are really going to end up paying the doubling of the fees.

Peter 2007-09-08T01:37:34Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#6b878f95-2a04-42fa-87fe-d2c0abe21a63 2007-09-08T01:31:32Z 2007-09-08T01:31:24Z

Bahhhhhhhh my love :-) Nice women never changed history :-)

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T01:31:24Z noangels http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#35080a5a-3205-4619-9e2a-d3ff20c78fe6 2007-09-08T01:22:57Z 2007-09-08T01:22:57Z

The ten principles need to include a new statement; Please stay home if you have nothing positive to add other than bitching about how great it used to be. Start your own event.

noangels 2007-09-08T01:22:57Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#065c7f10-b7d0-4f0a-b609-9a18c48338ba 2007-09-08T01:17:31Z 2007-09-08T01:17:31Z

"If the festival is going to be a counter culture event.. it can not be main stream. " I am not one to swear, in fact I am usually just a loving dirty hippy, but FUCK that shit. Who are you to claim what is and what is not a counter culture event. I know many people who are Burnerier than hell but none of them are claiming what counter culture is or is not, they are defining who they are and surrounding themselves with like minded community. Just like real life as the size grows so will the separation between the tribes, which is fine with me. Perfectly fine. Because I have no desire to deal with some burners who come off as uppity full of themselves and cocky as hell, I prefer to stay with in my tribe of loving caring open armed individuals who I know work and play as hard as me. Anyone is welcome to join us but you have to keep up, otherwise you get left behind. So seriously fuck your sentiment about what is counter culture and what is not. You live in a bubble so do I, it is the nature of life in the modern world.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-09-08T01:17:31Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#5ae4bbc7-cbd4-49f3-bbae-7c51f5474cfd 2007-09-08T01:08:46Z 2007-09-08T01:08:46Z

You what the most wonderful thing about this conversation is. I don't care if people think I'm right or wrong as long as it opens a dialog that makes people think about what they can do to make change happen before the event occurs. This event is too much of a anomoly to have it die out.. Best to you all! Janine :-) time to cook dinner Feel free to leave your thoughts here with out me :-) You don't need me to validate your opinion......

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T01:08:46Z Gold Guy http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#3904a14e-cd5e-4f68-bdfb-d02df765f086 2007-09-08T01:08:16Z 2007-09-08T01:08:16Z

>>>WTF happened this year.. BM is not a spectator event... If not for the reference to specific art from 2007 I would swear this was written in 1996 ;) ;)

Gold Guy 2007-09-08T01:08:16Z Uncle Sticky http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#0ef72c74-0e3b-4e68-8618-b307258a9740 2007-09-08T01:02:47Z 2007-09-08T01:02:47Z

I never felt that this city had a soul. Part of it was the art, which seemed to be focused on political statement, not emotional connection. I also missed having a piece that created a sense of community. Think of the focus of attention and energy that the Waffle and the last two FLG pieces created (we missed you women!). If you needed to take refuge from the night and find some love and positive outlook, it was there encircled by these amazing pieces. The other part was that many of the ten thousand extra didn't seem to bring much with them. Newbies usually get a pass, but when you add almost 20,000 of them over two years, and they don't contribute, you will see a serious dilution. Now, I don't pretend to be able to prove that the increase in numbers was all virgin, nor that none of these virgins contributed, and I don't believe that to be true, but I did see a serious drop off in participation. All in all, the people that I met this year were the most positive experience of my burn, but after all I gave, I didn't feel it coming back to me.

Uncle Sticky 2007-09-08T01:02:47Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b8a2899a-d1b7-4f7b-b4be-484bd4a0431e 2007-09-08T01:02:34Z 2007-09-08T01:02:34Z

"You being radically self reliant is a given at Burningman. " apparently, from the stories coming in, it's not. many people are attending who not only don't grasp those basic things, but aren't even aware of them. "Sure sounds a lot more tied to radical self expression than "Drink more water" " my point was that when you get people involved at a basic level, they tend to feel more connected to what's going on around them. they tend to feel they have something invested and develop a better understanding of the event. which makes them more inclined to participate and less inclined to spectate. when people feel ownership of their experience they become more actively engaged. when they are able to cruise by they wait to be entertained. "Yes, but I think being a sheep and going with the flow is a lot more comfortable than getting out and stirring shit up some times." of course. but as I said radical is a relative term. so is sheep. if you roll with a non-traditional crowd who spends their time setting stuff on fire every weekend, then going to burning man and doing the same thing is simply following the herd. Sometimes the most radical expression can be the smallest act. While an act that appears to be outwardly dramatic required no pushing or change for the person doing it. if you're an outgoing person who's comfortable with nudity and all your friends are into BDSM, well then running around naked as I explained in my example isn't really radical. You're still totally within your comfort zone with a support team around you, you're simply unconventional. Meanwhile, if you're someone who has always had body issues then going topless for a day may require 10x more courage and be 20x more radical. I have more respect for the latter. :)

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T01:02:34Z Nick http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#75e44ba2-ea67-4e9f-87c5-2520292b6b3a 2007-09-08T00:59:38Z 2007-09-08T00:59:38Z

cross-post!

Nick 2007-09-08T00:59:38Z Nick http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#844eefe1-5aab-4dff-b0d0-968cd0769cb6 2007-09-08T00:59:06Z 2007-09-08T00:59:06Z

She was saying "don't ... make everyone ..."

Nick 2007-09-08T00:59:06Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e0822df8-3372-435c-83e8-b6362f0713bd 2007-09-08T00:53:24Z 2007-09-08T00:52:15Z

You need to re-read the post.. the point is to NOT make people conform! Had you ? Where you at the temple Sunday night when it was burned!!!! It sucked. A woman grabbed my arm and started yelling at me to sit down. True fact..

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:52:15Z jamie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#4ed18c9b-2f01-4e5d-9d27-085b0cdf8118 2007-09-08T00:48:53Z 2007-09-08T00:48:53Z

right on sister!

jamie 2007-09-08T00:48:53Z Sarah http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#be68cb47-e36b-4ce0-a40c-6ac5935114e0 2007-09-08T00:46:34Z 2007-09-08T00:46:34Z

That's basically what I said... We do our thing as participants. That includes schooling the "young ones" if they need it--I did plenty of that this week--but there are those that will accept that and there are those that won't. I guess I was getting more to the point of don't bitch about it after, take care of it there. Do what we do every year--be part of it--and by that example we lead and teach. They'll come back next year and know what to do and how to pass that on....

Sarah 2007-09-08T00:46:34Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#3d0f0c09-1a80-4d37-ab63-5445eeaaf91f 2007-09-08T00:46:10Z 2007-09-08T00:46:10Z

Boy, I have no idea what a real burner looks like either :-) but this part liked.. "One does not have to be naked, with their hair on fire, getting spanked by sadistic dwarves, while driving a dangerous art car " Sure sounds a lot more tied to radical self expression than "Drink more water" You being radically self reliant is a given at Burningman. Yes, but I think being a sheep and going with the flow is a lot more comfortable than getting out and stirring shit up some times. Chaos and change will always fall to entropy if direct energy isn't applied.

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:46:10Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#5986f6d6-afa2-4871-8dae-b997329a99d7 2007-09-08T00:36:22Z 2007-09-08T00:36:22Z

"and make everyone" You more or less had me until I saw those three words.

Geekster 2007-09-08T00:36:22Z jamie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#9103c78b-0cde-400b-bf24-c1a17a9cfe03 2007-09-08T00:31:49Z 2007-09-08T00:31:49Z

"What can we do about it? " "Nothing" I dont agree I think theirs a ton we can do. set good examples of gifting,sharing, creating art for others,being a good neighbor, standing up and pointing out when people make silly mistakes (like leaving trash behind or stealing bikes....etc) I feel like its kind of our duty to pass the torch of all the wonderful things we learn on the playa. I didnt walk in knowing everything, I had to learn and people took time to explain things to me. with a huge increase with people showing up, weve got way more students then teachers and I think thats why its getting out of hand. to just throw your hands up and say Ill just stick to the ones that get it, just seems like the easy way out and sure fire way for b man to shoot down the tubes pretty quickly.....but if you have the ability to ignore the yahoos and focus on the people with a genuine interest, then your pretty set. its atleast worth a try isnt it?

jamie 2007-09-08T00:31:49Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#a5f2f66d-a7b2-4bea-9838-417d8b1daa29 2007-09-08T00:31:43Z 2007-09-08T00:31:43Z

ack. it double posted.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T00:31:43Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e19ffd4f-c68a-4b23-9133-70e3064b970f 2007-09-08T00:31:13Z 2007-09-08T00:31:13Z

"now our job is to be so fucking radical and expressive that the newbies all WAKE UP and become real burners " really? I have a job now? dang, I must've missed a memo. must've been the same memo that explained what "real" burners are. ;P I see all these threads and after awhile it just seems to be missing the point. C'mon people. Not everyone burns the same way. Not everyone needs the same thing. Not everyone can give the same thing nor the same amount. "Radical" is a relative term. And many ways of participating aren't readily apparent. some people like to participate by making sculpture. some like to participate by taking care of infrastructure. some like to participate through personal interaction. are we supposed to go person to person now and verify that they're being "burner enough"? One does not have to be naked, with their hair on fire, getting spanked by sadistic dwarves, while driving a dangerous art car to be participating. And the implication that there is only one way to participate -- the same way the speaker of the moment does -- comes across as "more burner than thou" absurdity. I want to see people participating by taking fucking responsibility for themselves so that those around them can be radical in whatever way they prefer, without being infringed upon. I'd prefer to see people actually making an attempt to follow basic guidelines like don't stick beer bottles in the potties, LNT, pack it out, stake it down, don't take what's not yours, don't touch without asking, drink some fucking water, take a fucking nap, give back to the community what you take. If we could get more people just meeting the basic level I wouldn't care how else they'd spend their time. Because likely by that point they would have found ways to participate.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T00:31:13Z Ms.Dynomite http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#fed166b7-fc01-4866-ad05-12e7599af19d 2007-09-08T00:30:26Z 2007-09-08T00:30:26Z

"now our job is to be so fucking radical and expressive that the newbies all WAKE UP and become real burners " really? I have a job now? dang, I must've missed a memo. must've been the same memo that explained what "real" burners are. ;P Seriously people I see all those threads and after awhile it just seems to be missing the point. Not everyone burns the same way. Not everyone needs the same thing. Not everyone can give the same thing nor the same amount. "Radical" is a relative term. And many ways of participating aren't readily apparent. some people like to participate by making sculpture. some like to participate by taking care of infrastructure. some like to participate through personal interaction. are we supposed to go person to person now and verify that they're being "burner enough"? One does not have to be naked, with their hair on fire, getting spanked by sadistic dwarves, while driving a dangerous art car to be participating. And the implication that there is only one way to participate -- the same way the speaker of the moment does -- comes across as "more burner than thou" absurdity. I want to see people participating by taking fucking responsibility for themselves so that those around them can be radical in whatever way they prefer, without being infringed upon. I'd prefer to see people actually making an attempt to follow basic guidelines like don't stick beer bottles in the potties, LNT, pack it out, stake it down, don't take what's not yours, don't touch without asking, drink some fucking water, take a fucking nap, give back to the community what you take. If we could get more people just meeting the basic level I wouldn't care how else they'd spend their time. Because likely by that point they would have found ways to participate.

Ms.Dynomite 2007-09-08T00:30:26Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#07c17e6b-a116-4593-93f3-ac54b88e0ad8 2007-09-08T00:22:35Z 2007-09-08T00:22:35Z

The chupacabra used to do this... Hey guys.. where in the hell did you go! We need you now!

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:22:35Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#32d700b4-5580-40fe-9d77-a25799af9adb 2007-09-08T00:19:54Z 2007-09-08T00:19:54Z

then this is exactly what I'm talking about if the evolution of the event ids becoming more community focus. Then a Radical redesign of the city is in order. Move the man out of the center pull in the empty space create more common areas for people to intermingle. But don't rope of the burns with caution tape and make everyone sit down in an orderly manner as if it is an elementary school assemblies.

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:19:54Z Sarah http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#3c95ba02-88c0-423f-9458-05b289dfa136 2007-09-08T00:10:25Z 2007-09-08T00:10:25Z

There will always be "spectators" at BM or any other similar event. It's the nature of the beast. What can we do about it? Nothing. We can go and participate and do our thing and make the most of the wonderful week we have to come together and celebrate who we are and what we mean to the world and ignore the others. I decided this last year and my decompression is so much nicer not worrying about the yahoos and non-participants. I'll just savor my wonderful memories with a positive attitude.

Sarah 2007-09-08T00:10:25Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#9dfe27fd-1fed-494d-bd7c-c73d1cc7f179 2007-09-08T00:10:11Z 2007-09-08T00:10:11Z

Moist, I completely agree!! And I also think that the neighborhood we were in (our camp was on the 9:00 plaza - Chia Pussy Camp) was the absolute epitome of community!! We helped our neighbors build their structures and they helped us build ours. We had friends coming by to visit along with the occasional stranger looking for some pussy and some shade and we greeted them all with a smile and cool drink and/or food, and a heckle or two for good measure. Two bars within a stone's throw, Pizza Smut and coffee around the corner and pancakes across the street. What more could you ask for!! Well, maybe some more local art, but the playa was a short bike ride away.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-09-08T00:10:11Z Valkyrie http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#07d8beb3-57b0-4f6e-ad8f-e6f13264aa75 2007-09-08T00:09:27Z 2007-09-08T00:09:27Z

I like that attitude. As a newbie who was NOT there to be a spectator (but treated at times as if I were), that sentiment is the best thing I've heard on the issue. I really have to wonder why don't people take the good ole' BM approach that they espouse so loudly and not only participate by playing the "look at me" game (which like it or not encourages spectatorism) but playing the game of dragging the spectators kicking and screaming into the action. Imagine, roving bands of burners cruising the streets of BRC, looking for hapless spectators to induct into... how about a BRC army? Get the ones who are standing back from the weirdness a bit. Who knows what that could lead to. You just might wind up getting some folks involved who otherwise would never have really gotten into the radical participation really at all. You could change lives! Or you could just sit around and whinge about it. I was the one with the bells...

Valkyrie 2007-09-08T00:09:27Z Geekster http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#90815779-cabb-4ef5-ada7-5f4fb70aa2ad 2007-09-08T00:09:26Z 2007-09-08T00:09:26Z

" Focus on community next year if there isn't art that wows you." Exactly. Make BM the way you want it to be within the borders of your camp and maybe interact with your neighbors to help infuse that into the surrounding camps. We loved our neighbors this year. We had a great piece of art nearby (thank you, Flaming Lotus Girls!) in the plaza. The neighboring camps were interactive and fun. Folks in our camp kept the burn barrels going all night long on several nights and cooked a ton of bacon on them for the weary cold souls trudging home in the wee hours. The folks at the Skinny Kitty Tea House served up hot steaming cups of yummy stuff around the clock, New Jersey gave out ice cream to the sweltering masses, there was a lemonade stand and a playground, and Big Puffy Yellow invited us over for dinner on Exodus Monday to share their red beans and rice. While I did get a certain vibe from the people passing through, the ones who lived in our neighborhood "got it" and we had the most excellent neighbors a camp could ever want.

Geekster 2007-09-08T00:09:26Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#cb0e4b4b-c870-46c1-bf02-03bc38c83165 2007-09-08T00:08:17Z 2007-09-08T00:08:17Z

Thank you for expressing it better than me.. That is how I felt.:-)

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:08:17Z daniel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#ad5dbe3a-4891-46a3-a10e-54512044f818 2007-09-08T00:05:20Z 2007-09-08T00:05:20Z

i felt that Redemption Song and the wave were totally default feeling just killed the vibe for me...i mean, i got what i could...and when it was finally silent, i had my beautiful glorious temple burn experience...but yeah, it felt like, "where am i? a frat party? a football game?" and i know i know, i'm stereotyping... but that was my experience...felt very cold, very third dimensional, very much like being at the mall

daniel 2007-09-08T00:05:20Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#2d10b95c-cdf2-43c8-9c04-7ee66b6fc626 2007-09-08T00:05:17Z 2007-09-08T00:05:17Z

I think you are confusing.. keeping things the same and keeping them intresting and new.

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:05:17Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#680d1de0-73df-4db6-ba92-ca32d6995bd3 2007-09-08T00:04:09Z 2007-09-08T00:03:32Z

Hehe.. Moist even came to see you this year but you were not in :-) I accually agree with you, I stayed around camp a lot this year and hung out with good friends. It was the best part of my Burn.. But if "art" is and "entertainment " is not one of the main focuses of the festival we are sure wasting alot of money. Another thing I noticed was all the really good partys have now become invite only.. Ladybee uses the large art cars for her private events. Dinners and entertainment have become every exclusive. This was not like the old days. It is who you know anymore not radically all inclusive even within the city anymore. We don't really have a community anymore...

J9 JMF 2007-09-08T00:03:32Z Unsubscribed http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#d960f7d2-8c40-4c44-a846-c3eb767ad327 2007-09-08T00:03:35Z 2007-09-08T00:03:35Z

You're right. Burning man was so much better the first year I went. Each year after that, I was less and less impressed (or jaded). Why can't things be the way they were when I first went? Why do they have to change the way things are? Why do new people have to come along and ruin my experience?

Unsubscribed 2007-09-08T00:03:35Z °ß⌡° http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#aa2041b2-0cf1-47cf-ad5f-ac8e09904df8 2007-09-07T23:58:28Z 2007-09-07T23:58:28Z

>i actually liked the aural temple wave. i like witnessing emergent properties of large networked systems. also, everyeon near me had already >gotten their crying over with (including myself). it seemed to start out of nowhere and, to me, it felt like a big collective clockwise prayer for joy. I felt the same way. The first time it went around I was appalled by it. But Burning Man is about having an open mind and when I opened my mind I noticed that it wasn't like a wave you find at your average major league baseball game. It had a very different feel to it. When it came around I felt a sense of unity with everyone in the large circle. Burning Man isn't for spectators yet we all just stood there silent watching the burn. The wave gave us participation in the ritual. So by the third time around I joined in myself.

°ß⌡° 2007-09-07T23:58:28Z $item.owner.firstName http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#f17c8a17-107c-4a20-b959-ea03c0653a91 2007-09-07T23:54:14Z 2007-09-07T23:54:14Z

JMF I don't agree. I barely left my camp this year. I found Burning Man within a blocks radius. Perhaps you were looking at the macro, when you should've been looking at the micro. The esplanade is always a wasteland of yahoos. (Even though I know all those camps work SO hard, they can't help that that is who visits them.) Focus on community next year if there isn't art that wows you.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-09-07T23:54:14Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#0881382e-8d7e-454e-b328-5c5493f92ebd 2007-09-07T23:53:59Z 2007-09-07T23:51:13Z

Yes you might have enjoyed the wave.. a bit like loving flowers and bunnies. This doesn't make it Radical or cutting edge. If the festival is going to be a counter culture event.. it can not be main stream. And Steven don't even get me started about the theme.... WTF was Larry thinking or not thinking

J9 JMF 2007-09-07T23:51:13Z °ß⌡° http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#7a968edf-72c6-4207-8ca2-3bb94dd3c460 2007-09-07T23:52:47Z 2007-09-07T23:52:47Z

Excellent work then :)

°ß⌡° 2007-09-07T23:52:47Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#727cb930-2bb4-4de3-895e-5e2fefcec594 2007-09-07T23:46:03Z 2007-09-07T23:46:03Z

Hey steven.. Sorry I missed you at the burn. I'm out here :-) Just lurking.. and now I'm pissed off.

J9 JMF 2007-09-07T23:46:03Z true http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#01843847-2e7c-4fb6-8b42-40e0247dc367 2007-09-07T23:43:40Z 2007-09-07T23:43:40Z

i actually liked the aural temple wave. i like witnessing emergent properties of large networked systems. also, everyeon near me had already gotten their crying over with (including myself). it seemed to start out of nowhere and, to me, it felt like a big collective clockwise prayer for joy. burning man just a mirror. then again, so is life. maybe it's time we moved on? start our own event? i don't think bm is dead yet. i think there is still lots of room for us to inject our spontaneity and creativity.

true 2007-09-07T23:43:40Z Steven http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#1c946b27-63f9-4798-8a6c-71f37c62f3fe 2007-09-07T23:42:46Z 2007-09-07T23:42:46Z

J9, where have you been?! :) I definitely thought the art was kind of lacking this year. Not as good as 2006, which wasn't as good as 2005. But there were some very nice smaller pieces. I also liked all the smaller pieces surrounding the Man. Maybe some of the problem was the Theme? I am worried about next year's theme; although Barbie Doll Death Camp fits right in...

Steven 2007-09-07T23:42:46Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#72bb8325-ee15-4c15-a41a-e1fb467a54b9 2007-09-07T23:40:46Z 2007-09-07T23:40:46Z

I prepared food with PlayaQ everyday for Media Mecca, DPW and the Man crew, I also had a peice of Black light artwork in the Acient Gallery. In past years I have installed multiple pieces of art work on the Playa and worked for the Artery, This along with my responsiblities to my theme camp. If you need to know. :-) Janine Miller-Fritz

J9 JMF 2007-09-07T23:40:46Z daniel http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#e502c40c-fe62-451c-87c4-526acd829acb 2007-09-07T23:35:02Z 2007-09-07T23:35:02Z

dude, where ya been? It's been like that for YEARS now our job is to be so fucking radical and expressive that the newbies all WAKE UP and become real burners Let's see the new relative mainstreamness of burning man (and let's face it, it's not really mainstream, just a bit less far out than it used to be) not as a problem, but as an opportunity to spread the energy of freedom and passion to a new population or maybe i'm just a stupid hippy

daniel 2007-09-07T23:35:02Z °ß⌡° http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#b9d5a262-3abb-4ded-a424-f2c04ed192ab 2007-09-07T23:30:42Z 2007-09-07T23:30:42Z

What did you do to participate this year?

°ß⌡° 2007-09-07T23:30:42Z J9 JMF http://bm.tribe.net/thread/6462234d-1a70-412c-b67a-f294f69f7100#38b58e6a-133c-4708-9c55-d863527f1f74 2007-09-07T23:27:32Z 2007-09-07T23:27:32Z

Did anyone but me feel that Burning man had lost its edge this year. As I looked around at the huge rave theme camps and the lack of really mind blowing art. (few piece are the exception.... cyber punk tree house, Big Rig Jig, David Bests temple. I felt there was this underlying feeling of Las Vegas theatrics. I felt that people were more interested in being spectators and being Wowed than being involved in participation of the event. As if the radical self espression had been replaced with mainstream radical self entitlement. ( I paid for my ticket now show me something special attitude) If you want to see something special get off your ass and build it. It just seems to me that our counter-culture festival is becoming Nevada's next tourist attraction, for me it is evolving in a direction that is much too main stream for my taste. When the wave is being created at the temple burn, something has gone wrong. This sheep like behavior is killing our counter culture festival. Next thing you know the man will be sitting on top of the Disney land castle and everyone will be singing cumbya to Larry.. Wake the fuck up people. Participate not spectate You don't like the theme don't use it.. Build what ever the fucking want. but bew involved.

J9 JMF 2007-09-07T23:27:32Z