PRESS RELEASE
January 6, 2009
Community Justice Network for Youth
180 Howard Street Suite 320
San Francisco CA 94105
www.cjny.org
(415) 321-4100 X102
More than 300 Bay Area residents will rally January 7 to show solidarity with the family of Oscar Grant, and demand that the BART Police be held accountable!
The 22-year-old father was killed by a BART police officer early New Year's Day when he was shot in the back as he lay face-down on the train platform, his hands behind him. He was cooperating; lifting his hands in surrender before being placed on the floor! The morning of January 7 he will be laid to rest. That afternoon we will rally in his name!!!
Speakers will share a list of demands including:
1) All officers involved be taken off duty without pay, and fully prosecuted;
2) That the U.S. Justice Department investigate the incident as a violation of civil rights;
3) That BART establish an independent citizens’ review board for its officers; and
4) That the BART police officers be disarmed!
WHAT: Rally for Oscar Grant!
WHEN: Wednesday January 7, 2009
TIME: From 3 p.m. - 7 p.m.
WHERE: FRUITVALE BART STATION
LOCATION: 3401 East 12th Street / Oakland CA
*** Community Justice Network for Youth (CJNY) is helping to organize and providing assistance to groups. For more information call Christina Gomez at (415) 321-4100 X102.
I got abused by a bart cop.
It's the same mentality that I experienced that has been repeated with this event.
there needs to be a citizens review board.
I would have paid money to get in front of them with my experience with this
asshole bart cop Dixon and his partner.
I saw this on the news - fucking unbelievable. There was even video of the event.
Poor guy. I feel for his family. There obviously can be no justice, since justice would be to never have lost him, but I hope at least the cops responsible go away for a very long time.
Bad URL (but plenty of turkey bowling...)
I apologize for the bad URL. I am reposting this URL and checking it, and deleting my own post on the URL:
www.youtube.com/watch
is the correct one.
What I said still applies, too:
One of my friends lives a mere three blocks from the station. It was in his blog yesterday a.m., and he gave me the youtube addy of the shooting:
Lonestoner, I took your post and sent it to my friend. Maybe he can help.
No matter what, people, I am only going to say this once. Please. DO NOT get involved in acts of violence, because violence is NOT cool. You're hearing it from the Rhino. Stay level headed. Be burners and leaders.
Is it racist of me to ask why there are all these plans for demonstrations, assemblies, protests, etc. when the death involves a young black man and a white BART cop but never seems to be such investment of time, resources and energy when the deaths are a result of black on black violence?
Sure it sucks that the unarmed kid was killed while handcuffed. Yeah, it *is* a fucking outrage but please spare me your fucking lynch mob behavior until a formal investigation can be completed.
Christ.
Well, Badger, I *do* think it's more outrageous when the person doing the shooting is armed and paid with the responsibility of upholding the law and keeping the peace. The kid was handcuffed and on his stomach, fer fuck's sake.
Your point is well made, though, that black-on-black violence never seems to get the same attention.
Yeah, marches and protests always help to calm people down and keep clear minds ready to learn and understand all aspects of a situation.
We've already got another misplaced thread, and corrections should be even handed.
bm.tribe.net/thread/4bd1...f211b29fd31a
May I suggest that we could have a thread called something like "I just posted in events" where people who've just posted in events could post a link and say a couple of sentences about their events. That way things could be seen, without our tribe being cluttered.
Dont you know that being a cop gives you the right to beat people down. They will probably give him a medal and give him a promotion.
I understand how you may feel about this But Living in Portland we have been witness to cops killing unarmed teenagers and nothing happened to the police officer who did it. We have seen police taken extreme measures to subdue protesters. And theres nothing we can do about it. it sucks but the police are not on your side.
At one time I wanted to make a shirt that said If you want to get away with murder become a cop.
Thanks, Crypto, I am quite on top of things..
This thread has become a thread people seem to be interested in, so I am would rather let people have a conversation about things that happen in our society than be a Thread Nazi today. Plus, it was pretty clearly labeled off topic of sorts, so I am cutting some slack on it.
Plus, this happened in San Francisco where Burning man is located, so we have the Burn ing man connection of sorts. I guess.
And um.... fuck the police, yeah... there we go... okay everyone carry on.
How 'bout that wretched pink bus?<<
Like I said, Crypto, I got it covered.
All is well...
Sorry, I should have checked and seen that it was gone.
Now, I've only made a fool of myself.
No worries.
Now let's talk about how much authority sucks and how we want to fuck with the man, only we are afraid of the man some. But fuck him anyway.
Before you do that you might think of suggesting 'Civics for Dummies' be required reading before you storm the Bastille and overthrow the kingdom.
Otherwise you'll probably come off like a gaggle of New College PolySci trustafarians as you go forth schlepping zombie-like towards the rally... one hand pumping a fist of fury in the air and the other trying not to spill your double soy decaf moca latte'.
Power to the People - BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, but this one has a perfect storm of circumstances. Starting with 'the whole thing got recorded'.
Some Oakland homocides can say the same, but how many involve a cop?
Maybe a few. How many also had the victim lying on the ground and getting shot in the back? Nada.
Throw in the fact that the cop in question hasn't even been questioned yet, a week later... it kinda stinks man.
It's not in the same category as an 'unknown assailant', or even 'everybody knows who did it but are afraid to come forward'. Everyone knows who did it, it's the person supposed to be protecting you, and nobody's doing jack shit about it. As far as injustices go, it's an order or two of magnitude greater. And people are entitled to be pissed.
> Yeah, it *is* a fucking outrage but please spare me your fucking lynch mob behavior until a formal investigation can be completed.
Oh right... because "formal Investigations" have such a terrific track record of achieving some measure of justice?
What planet are you from again?
And since when is a public expression of outrage through peaceful protest an example of "lynch mob mentality" ?? Maybe you'd benefit from reading up on the history of lynchings. You don't have to go far. Google San Jose + St. James Park" + Lynching. THAT'S a lynch mob mentality. Protests just aren't. Until or unless they lead to a lynching, or threaten to. Using this term is a pretty callous offense to anyone who has connections to a lynching. And there are more around than you might expect. Do you have any idea how many occurred in just our RECENT history as a nation?
> Is it racist of me to ask why...
Not really. Just trollish. Though I don't doubt some latent racism might hiding in there as well, given your "black on black" comment.
> We have seen police taken extreme measures to subdue protesters. And theres nothing we can do about it. it sucks but the police are not on your side.
One word: Greece.
www.boston.com/bigpicture..._riots.html
We should take a lesson. Seriously.
Ohhh badger put your penis back in your pants and watch the video. I dont assume that the cop did it with the intention of truly creating this catastrophe. But the same could be said for the cops that beat down Rodney king. The power of video can be so deceiving.
I wonder if the BART guy confused his gun for the taser they were all just issued a few weeks before.
That is what they have been saying. In which case the family's going to get a good chunk of that $25 Million. No way to put lipstick on that pig.
If that's the case, Crypto and Elaine, then they were never given adequate training in the use of the tasers. Our own police department here has tasers, and they've been moderately successful, despite deaths due to tasers in Kansas City and St. Louis.
We can second-guess the BART police all we want, but the bottom line is still this: A man, a father of kids who had a job is dead.
Agreed.
<The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Wednesday night's vandalism victims had nothing to do with the shooting death by a BART police officer of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day - but that did little to sway the mob.
"I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male."
Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed.">
Ah, Nia, such a model of compassion.
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi
Just like Crenshaw after the King debacle. Idiots looking for an excuse to vandalize.
Doesn't do much to convince you of their outrage over trampled rights, does it?
You know, it's really sad that people who DO have well-meaning intentions get labeled as a result of a few idiots. I call the idiots the "1% that ruin it".
An example. The vast majority of professional truck drivers go to great lengths to practice and follow over-the-road safety precautions...the pre-trip inspection checklist, keeping their rigs in good operable running order, and drive courteously when cars are around. The ones who cut people off in traffic are the '1% who ruin it". And they've effectively destroyed the reputations of honest, hardworking truck drivers.
I ran into a couple of the professional truck drivers a few weeks ago in deep southeast Missouri. They were parked at a truck stop on I-55 during an ice storm that put 2" of hardened sleet on the road. These two weren't moving (and hence, not getting paid)....but their common sense kept them safe. One of them told me, "I'm not movin' that rig 'til the ice has melted and the road is clear. I've got too much money and time invested in my job to go wreck my rig." The words of a good, solid, reputable truck driver.
Now, we have evidence of 'the 1%' in Oakland. And, because freedom of speech issues hamstrings the officers of the Oakland Police from making arrests of the 1%, the protest turns sour and the protesters get a bad name. Nia Sykes doesn't get it. Clueless. The problem is not all the police. The problem is the people, too. In particular, 'the 1%'.
"Dont you know that being a cop gives you the right to beat people down. They will probably give him a medal and give him a promotion. "
Yes, and all the people attending the 'rally' will be peaceful and non-violent. I mean, God forbid that they should make a statement against violence and brutality by randomly smashing the windows of several small, businesses belonging to people of color, burn multiple vehicles owned by said people using them to get to work to make a fucking living or terrorize a mother and infant child inside an occupied building seized upon by the peaceful but indignant crowd.
"At one time I wanted to make a shirt that said If you want to get away with murder become a cop."
Ask if they have one that says "If you wanna get away with burning, looting and destroying innocent business owners families and livelihoods just join a protest, act like you really give a fuck and start burning when the crowd gets large enough to provide you with some anonymity for your unfocused cowardice.
Have a look: tinyurl.com/97mj2l
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said.
She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed.">
And with that comment, you, Ms. Sykes, your group of fellow protesters and your cause lost any credibility with me.
Michael Franti has a song with lyrics that go "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace".
Truer words...
> because freedom of speech issues hamstrings the officers of the Oakland Police from making arrests of the 1%, the protest turns sour and the protesters get a bad name.
Say WHAT ??
I challenge you to provide one example, ever, of the OPD failing to make an arrest of anyone engaged in unlawful behavior due to "freedom of speech concerns". Ever.
The OPD has had an abysmal rep for 50 years, particularly when it comes to crowd control and protests. The Panthers. Judi Bari. The "Riders". The Port protests... remember the girl with her cheek out to San Jose from getting hit with a wooden dowel from some crowd control device after a mumbled megaphone warning that no one in the crowd could understand?
And protests turn sour because the police fail to make arrests? Are you for serious? Have you BEEN to any of these protests? 'Cuz that sure hasn't been my experience.
Cops tend towards "preventive" measures. While I completely support the arrest of window-smashers, firebugs, and other violent "protesters", most rabble-rousers don't get the attention they deserve from the cops. But the mostly peaceful marchers sure do. Nonetheless, cops ignoring or overlooking anachist-type protest-usurpers seems to have little or nothing to do with free speech issues, from my direct observations. Video from the Seattle WTO protests or the SF Iraq war demos are a great example of this. The "fuck-shit-up" types do it because they can, and because it's effective under cover of a big protest. The cops respond by cracking down on the larger crowd, because it's too difficult to chase the actual wrongdoers. Honestly, they're just lazy. Same old shit, different day.
Did you look at the pics from Greece at the link I posted above? A very, very different story there. In Greece, citizens apparently don't take kindly to their public servants killing them in the process of "keeping them safe". I've got to wonder what would happen if we were ever to rise up in similar fashion. Not by burning our neighborhoods down, but by simply filling the streets in numbers impossible to ignore. By shutting down the cities completely, as the French farmers occasionally do.
Honestly, we've grown soft. We're nearly hopeless. We don't have half the huevos that second-world college kids do. We're almost as lazy and pathetic as the cops.
Right. Who needs twinkies?
I was in the middle of all the shit that went down on the night of the seventh, and I'll post the full story tomorrow. Meant to do so tonight, but the story is running long, four pages and counting, and real life interfered with my cyberspace existence, as it often does. Rhino is right when he says 1% fucked it up for everyone. I met a group of concerned citizens at the jail last night to see what we could do, and was glad to learn that most of those arrested had only minor charges and had been released on their own recognizance. Fuck you if I didn't spell that right.
Whether he thought it was a taser or not, he should have been held accountable for his actions, and he will be, or we will burn this city to the ground, right or wrong.
<< I wonder if the BART guy confused his gun for the taser >>
That is the speculation. My understanding is the BART cops were told to keep their tasers on a separate side of their belt from their firearm, to avoid such confusion. The BART cop could have made a mistake, thinking he was using his taser. But the fact that he has not made a statement expressing remorse (if he made a mistake) undermines this idea. Yet maybe he is so freaked out from shooting the guy in the back that he can't make a public statement. Maybe he resigned because he realized he should not be deploying weapons. Hard to say.
The violent protesters destroyed a bunch of storefronts on 17th St between Franklin and Webster. That block is mostly black businesses, plus a medical marijuana co-op. I don't think that's right. The people on that block had nothing to do with this unjust death.
I don't think BART is to blame. I've been on BART for 20 years and have never had a bad experience with a BART cop, even though I probably looked suspicious about half the time.
Thanks, Elaine, for keeping the discussion open. It's OT, but when I showed up here, it's the first thread I looked at.
harriet
Exactly. Would it be 'better' if he thought he was just tazing a helpless, unresisting suspect?
(Is it preferable to be an incompetant sadist as opposed to a cold-blooded murderer?)
A trained police officer who can not tell a tazer from a firearm should not have either. I could not tell if he was even carrying a Tazer.
Besides, based on the videos it did not look like there was a reason for him to have a weapon in his hand anyway.
The longer it takes to bring charges the worst the rioting will be.And if the Bart police try to cover for him or if it doesn't go to trial it could get really bad.
Granted they are really poor video but it does look like the man just calmly holstered his weapon after the shooting. You think that there would have been a WTF moment before his put it away, if he thought it was a tazer.
The last time a CA cop mistook her pistol for a tazer; the results were the same.
In that incident, the suspect was handcuffed AND in the back of a police cruiser.
The officer shot him in the chest, killing him instantly.
The PD as well as the dead latino's family ended up suing the Taser company.
Apparently, Taser never warned of the danger of mistaking a firearm for their device during training.
IIRC, Tasers back then were painted BLACK. The model carried by BART PD is supposed to be Orange or Yellow and Black.
Most I have seen are orange. I was thinking more of the wieght then the grip.
Officer Marcie Noriega of the Madera PD faced no charges after her "I mistook m'gun for m'tazer" killing of a handcuffed AND confined perp.
They aren't that different in heft. The tazers have reels of wire darts and batteries. If BARTS service weapon is a full size Sig or Beretta, they're gonna be as heavy as the Tazer.
Plus you know how light everything is when you're at an emergency situation and your adrenaline is up.
But the fact that he has not made a statement expressing remorse (if he made a mistake) undermines this idea. Yet maybe he is so freaked out from shooting the guy in the back that he can't make a public statement. Maybe he resigned because he realized he should not be deploying weapons. Hard to say. <<<
He probably has been told by everyone, including his lawyers,not to say a word about it to the media or public. Including why he resigned so aburptly. He was probably told by his lawyers to do that too.
It's a lawyers game now, they are pretty much in charge of this mess from now on.
Very true, Elaine.
Thought experiement. How many of the people who are angry because he's not talking to the police also advise friends not to talk to the police when they get in trouble with the law, drugs or otherwise. It's a goose/gander situation. Everybody who wants to give up their Fifth Amendment rights, raise your hand.
Anarchy in the Streets of Oakland
How a peaceful demonstration against police brutality turned into an all out riot that left downtown Oakland aflame and in shambles.
Wednesday January 7th, 2009
It was just supposed to be a protest rally seeking justice for the cold blooded murder of an unarmed man at the Fruitvale BART station on New Years day. Oscar Grant, a twenty-two year old father of one, was shot in the back while lying on the ground by BART cop Johannes Mehserle and later died from his injuries. In an attempted cover up, Mehserle’s fellow officers began confiscating cell phones of commuters who’d witnessed the unprovoked murder. In spite of their efforts, not one but three separate videos were soon all over the internet and television news.
The killer was allowed to walk away from the scene, and was placed on PAID leave pending an investigation. He later resigned from the BART P.D. on January 7th, having still not spoken with investigators.
Not having a television or reliable internet access in the theater I’m currently residing in, I first learned of the murder of Oscar Grant when I received an invitation to the rally at the Fruitvale BART station where Oscar Grant was killed via my Facebook account. Not being a fan of law enforcement in general, and outraged at the merciless killing of an unarmed civilian and the resulting miscarriage of justice, I immediately decided to go to this protest rally and lend my support.
The rally was scheduled for three to seven P.M. and it was just before three when the bus deposited me at the BART station. There was a good size crowd already, and once the speeches began, the crowd began to grow at an almost exponential rate. It was a really diverse group of folks too, of all ages and from all walks of life. Among these were a couple of anarchist kids, girlfriend and boyfriend. For some reason I disliked them immediately, especially the girl. I had the strange desire to punch her in the mouth with a roll of quarters and I couldn’t understand why. I was really conflicted, because I don’t have anything against anarchists, I used to call myself one in fact, and this girl was really sexy, she had beautiful eyes peering out from atop her black bandanna, and beneath her bandolier belt she was all curves. There were a lot of anarchist kids in attendance, and she wasn’t the only hot chick, but none of the others made me nervous.
Something about her made me not just uneasy but a little worried and slightly angry as well.
I tried to forget about her and drank one of the two beers I’d brought with me as I listened to some of the speeches, collected some literature, and bought a “Stop the Violence” CD that later turned out to be blank. (If I ever see that dude again, I intend to have my two dollars or I’m going to START the fucking violence!) The crowd grew so large the BART people shut down the station to prevent the arrival of more demonstrators, although when I asked them they claimed to have closed it due to the unruliness of the existing demonstrators, a bullshit lie if I’ve ever heard one. I noticed a complete lack of BART cops, there were only the Fruitvale Village security guys, and the police helicopter, which along with every news chopper in the Bay Area, filled the sky above the station like a flock of mechanical birds of prey.
An impromptu march was scheduled, and roughly half an hour later, enough time for my other beer and some hastily scrawled notes, a group of demonstrators began to walk, down International towards downtown Oakland. Reports are conflicting regarding the total number but I would say at least four hundred, conservatively, and many people joined in as we slowly made our way towards downtown. The marchers, like the protestors at the BART station, were a mixed group; black, white, young, and old. Sure, we were intermittently chanting “Fuck the Police!” but it was still just a peaceful demonstration.
Remember the anarchist lovebirds who made me feel a little uneasy? A few blocks before the shit hits the fan, I’m smoking a recently bummed smoke (I had quit the night before) when I see the girl run over to the side of the street. She empties the entire contents of a free newspaper machine into her open backpack and rejoins the crowd. I’d first noticed she was part of the march about half a mile back, when one of the organizers of the rally had attempted to turn the march around, and she’d told him to “stop trying to run shit.” I knew it was just a matter of time before our previously peaceful demonstration took a turn for the worse, and it wasn’t long before she proved me right.
Near the closed down BART police station was a single police cruiser, it’s two officers standing on the corner across the street. The mob halted to shout a few choice obscenities. My sexy/creepy anarchist girl decided to use this opportunity and her recently acquired stash of paper to light up a nearby dumpster. A group of the white anarchist wannabes, almost as if they had just been waiting for this signal, push the dumpster over by the cop car while still others began to damage the cruiser itself.
A frenzy ensues as the mob mentality begins to take hold of the crowd, the lights and windshield of the black and white are smashed out, and then a group begins trying to flip it on it’s side. I contemplate joining in the destruction for the only time that night, I think one more person and they could have rolled that damn car, it was already leaning precariously on two wheels. I hesitate, and in my indecision the option is taken away from me, as several cans of smoke and one can of teargas are shot off in the street around the crowd.
At this point, most of the younger and older members of the march have had enough, they put an egg in their shoe and beat it. What’s left is the anarchist kids, a number of teens and young adults, all of the above feeling rowdy and pissed off, and myself and the few members of the press who’d chosen to follow the march instead of remaining at the rally. Also a few of the more hardcore protestors who, while not willing to resort to violence, are not yet ready to stop protesting and go home either.
I see the first police in riot gear arrive, and form a line directly ahead of me, so I decide to detour around the block. On the way I meet Bryan Wiles, one of the aforementioned hardcore but peaceful protestors, and since we both want to be where the action is and yet not necessarily take part in any mayhem and destruction, we “buddy up” and decide to watch each other’s back’s, and as we make our way around the block to where the police are making the first of the many arrests that night, we form an exit strategy and discuss what to do if one or the other of us is arrested.
Sometime between the ignition of the dumpster and the detour, the mayor led a small group of the original march to city hall and gave a brief speech. Previously, he couldn’t be bothered, and so he sent a flunky of some sort to the rally at the BART station to deliver a half-hearted apology. I missed the mayor’s undoubtedly stirring words, en route to what would become the front line of the war zone the evening would eventually become.
14th and Broadway.
At first it appeared to be a kind of totally one sided Mexican standoff. Lines of police in full riot gear blocked either side of Broadway. In between them, completely blocking off any traffic, are the two dozen or so protestors. Some of the anarchist kids remain, but the lovebirds are nowhere in sight. Perhaps they were so excited by their little trashcan fire they felt the need to rush home to Suburbia and make love in their evil lair located in his parent’s basement, or maybe they were tear gassed and had to pack it in early. I like to think it was the latter.
There are still a couple of bullhorns left in the hands of the remaining protestors, and they aren’t shy about using them. They lead the crowd in chants like, “No justice, no peace, fuck the police!” and “We are all Oscar Grant!” I was even pleasantly surprised to hear, “Hey cops, you better start shakin, today’s pig is tomorrow’s bacon!” It reminded me of Hunter. I think he would have been both pleased and disgusted with the way the night played out, pleased that so many had gathered to speak out against injustice and police brutality, and disgusted at the senseless destruction and vandalism that had nothing whatsoever to do with Oscar Grant or police brutality, it was just kids having fun; breaking shit and setting shit on fire.
It starts with another garbage fire, this time not a dumpster, just a regular sized can on the corner. It’s lit up and then kicked over, but the police seem uninterested, so the can on the other side of the street is set ablaze and knocked over as well. Still no reaction from the police, so a few bottles get thrown.
That pissed them off a little, so they order the crowd to disperse, and when no one seems to be dispersing they start herding us down 14th. This pisses the crowd off a little, and car windows start being broken, and a USA Today machine is kicked over and smashed. One of the cars with broken windows in set on fire when someone throws what I believe was a small Molotov cocktail inside it, in seconds there’s flames pouring out the windows and extending three feet over the roof of the vehicle. This was approximately eight-thirty, but I only know this from the newscast I watched later that night while having beers at Bryan’s place. I had no way to know what time it was at that moment, my ipod claimed it was just after three in the morning, which I knew couldn’t be right.
Several people refused to be herded like cattle, and I saw a couple sporadic skirmishes with the riot cops break out, usually ending with the person in the way being slammed to the ground, although one lady was simply picked up and carried away. I nearly catch the bums rush myself as I’m hastily scribbling notes and only Bryan’s tug on the shoulder saves me from becoming a doormat. “No justice, no peace!” chants the crowd, continuing on it’s path of destruction. It’s extremely violent, and just as senseless, the mob destroys things and sets other things on fire indiscriminately and completely at random.
I hear from a nearby photog that the police have closed down Madison, which intersects 14th about a block down the street. As he’s telling me this, I watch a kid looting the cars with broken windows. No one says a word to him, there’s so much anger in the air I don’t think anyone cared. A scary looking SWAT vehicle, armored and with some kind of gun turret, rolls by, loaded down with riot police, some of them wielding bean bag shotguns. One of them jumps off the vehicle and begins chasing the looter kid on foot, and then two more jump off and give chase. When they catch the kid I see all three of them pile onto his back, their knees on his shoulders and neck, one of them slaps the cuffs on, and another blasts him with a taser. By that time the kid was completely docile, and the taser was just a little bit of old fashioned police brutality.
We’ve reached Madison, and sure enough it’s blocked off by a line of cops. We’re forced to turn left on Madison, which prompts another volley of thrown bricks and bottles. Once again I’m saved from being trampled under the feet of the riot police by Bryan, who thankfully is paying attention to them while I’m busy taking in the sight of all the property damage and trying to write down as many details as I can. I see another small skirmish, a couple of men attempting to have a fist fight with the riot police. It doesn’t last long. More shit gets thrown, more shit gets broken.
At 15th and Madison, another car is in flames. I see a man across the street holding a fire extinguisher and go over and ask him why he didn’t put out the fire. “I was going to,” he told me, “but the cops told me to stay back. Dude said let it burn.” The power on the street goes out, and before it comes back on a minute or so later, the only lights are the car fire and the police Mag Lites. Someone says the cops cut the power so we couldn’t see them shoot us, which is both ridiculous and a little scary.
Once again, helicopters fill the sky above me. I see a well dressed man emerge from a nearby side street, speaking into a walkie talkie. “Keep the chopper right here, over me.” Says Supercop, for now I can see his badge and gun, both hanging from opposite sides of his belt. This is at 17th and Madison. The SWAT tank rolls by again. The distance between cars with smashed windshields and windows has grown longer. The worst seems to be over with. By mutual consent, Bryan and I make the decision to call it a night. There was nothing more to see, and we were not helping matters hanging around.
Turning down Lakeside Drive next to Lake Merritt, we pass a badly smashed Taxi whose driver wants no part of us or our fare. There’s some damage to cars and property down by the lake but not nearly as bad as the last few blocks have been. After a long wait at a bus stop, the buses are allowed to start rolling again and we hop on the 40 and ride it back to my place, where I immediately dig my old pack of smokes out of the trash and light one up, before going to the kitchen for a beer. Helluva night.
What should have been a show of support for the family of Oscar Grant III instead became a series of senseless acts of destruction that destroyed the property of small business owners and private citizens. (I make no mention of city or police property because I could give a shit about any of that.) A small group of white kids all hopped up on “Anarchy” as they understand the concept, ruined what should have been a good thing. Taking the focus off of the cop who shot an unarmed man in the back and the system that allowed him to, and instead placing it on a bunch of idiots breaking windows and burning cars. Way to go kids, you sure showed ‘em!
Thanks for the stirring eye witness report, Lonestoner. The end result, as you concluded, seems to have done more harm than good. How unfortunate.
Yeah but it ain't over yet. There's another rally at city hall on Wednesday, 3PM. I'll be there of course, we'll see how it goes and what they have to say.
thanks for the chronicle of the event, LS!
and I just can't help but fantasize what a crowd of the size that showed up would be like if everyone showed up and remained SILENT and STILL (for the most part) or at the very least gave up this 19th century anarchist ideal, which will only ever just put more money in SWAT budgets. ONLY.
>especially the girl. I had the strange desire to punch her in the mouth with a roll of quarters and I couldn’t understand why.<
certainly glad you can control your own violent impulses......
i like marklar's idea. too many protesters are there for a hit of adrenaline, and that's a bad combo.
Didn't they used to ahve pre-protest trainings where they practiced going limp when arrested?
I think that was the tactic back in the church-led protests in the civil rights era. It was a powerful statement in it's way.
Oh, and to answer my own question, because BART has passed on their info to the Alameda district attorney. So then the question becomes, why not outside the district attorney's office?
> In an attempted cover up, Mehserle’s fellow officers began confiscating cell phones of commuters who’d witnessed the unprovoked murder. In spite of their efforts, not one but three separate videos were soon all over the internet and television news.
Pretty clear evidence of guilty consciences, and probably grounds for a conspiracy charge if the DA had any balls.
I URGE you to report these facts to both the DA's office and to the local papers. If someone has film of an officer of the law trying to confiscate a bystander's camera or cellphone after the shooting, those officers should be prosecuted as with as much zeal as the shooter. I'm pretty sure that trying to destroy evidence of a crime is still a crime in this state, no matter which side of the badge you're on.
When are we going to begin to hold "officers of the law" ACCOUNTABLE to those same laws? Why do we let them walk away from shit like this?
I'm going to attempt to figure out who the chief of the "BART police" reports to, and see if I can make any headway there. Someone has got to reign these fuckers in.
In case anyone is unaware, it can't be more than two or three years ago that a very similar incident happened, suspect shot in the back by BART cop, no weapon, no crime, no evidence of wrongdoing, no reprimand, no consequences, no accountability.
Utter bullshit.
PS to Crypto: Great q's about where to direct the effort. If organizers put as much thought into where to aim as you have, there might actually be some real pressure applied.
I agree, but unfortunately I am not one of the organizers. The thing about confiscating the phones is common knowledge, they just aren't making a big enough fuss about it, in my opinion. Mehserle will face murder charges or the riots will be exponentially worse this time around, and not just because I'll be participating. FYI, the rally at city hall is actually sheduled to begin at four not three as I stated earlier.
Stay tuned...
Of course I can control my violent impulses, if I punched everyone I felt like in the mouth with a roll of quarters I would be in jail for life or at the very least have to work two jobs to pay for all the quarters.
;+}
>Didn't they used to ahve pre-protest trainings where they practiced going limp when arrested?
I know we did. ACT UP/San Francisco planned every demo they had to include a pre-demo meeting. If you didn't show up you were highly encouraged not to attend. At the meetings we inked the legal number on our arms, made sure we had all drugs and meds necessary should we be arrested and made a commitment that if we had a demo we would NOT under ANY circumstances resort to violence. It worked in all of my own 13 arrests for civil disobedience.
This horse may already be outside the stable, but it really would help here. I know that we are talking in part about a population that has deep resentments, with cause, but they're in risk of alienating the middle class support (black, white and other) that will ultimately mean success.
If you want to win, you have to forgo little pleasures in persuit of your goal.
so the bart cop was arrested....in nevada.
www.insidebayarea.com/oakland...11447812
Yeah, what a tool. Left his less than 2 week old baby behind or brought with? Stinks either way.
Well, I'm glad that the DA's office finally stepped up to that. Wonder what effect taht will have on tonight's protest.
He just got arrested.
news.aol.com/article/ex-...ested/298661
He's been charged with Murder
Today's protest should be starting soon. I wonder how that will work out.
Johannes Meserle beat someone up (sent to hospital) six weeks earlier.
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi
<BART spokesman Linton Johnson noted that Carrethers has not filed a formal complaint of police abuse against BART and he questioned Carrethers' timing and his motivation for coming forward.
"Would he have done so if Mehserle's name had never surfaced?" Johnson said. "I don't know.">
(And where did they get that moron to be their spokesman?)
When confronted by threatening behavior or persons, police officers tend to close ranks and invoke a powerful rule of silence. Then, they'll put somebody out front, like a public affairs officer, someone who's 'been there, done that' and is photogenic and all of the sudden the media can turn.
Someone needs to prod him into admitting that the BART police tried to confiscate cel phones and cameras after the event that recorded Mehserle's alleged murder of Oscar Grant, and remind him also that covering up such information is obstructing justice. If BART cannot police their own ranks, then get the FBI involved for civil rights violations on the part of the BART police.
I think all police forces need effective, not over-identified with the police, citizens review boards.
And if BART knew about this previous altercation, then why the fuck was Mehserle running around with a gun already.
And if BART didn't know, why the fuck didn't they know?
Public affairs guy is simply the mouthpiece of the higher ups that run BART and the city. He only says what he is told to say. That's his job and that what he gets paid to do.
Any prodding of people to say things should be directed towards the actual people who are in charge of this policy of lack of oversight on their employees.
The charges against the other officers who confiscated cell phones would probably fall along the lines of robbery, obstruction of justice, tampering with evidence...
Accessory to murder?
I wonder if these are the same guys who were with him when he beat up that other guy in November.
I'm guessing that not being called on that emboldened him on NYD.
Did he shoot to kill, or was the richochet and death a total surprise? Well, we'll never know the answer to that.
The rally and march were both peaceful, although I left immediately afterwards so there may have been a couple of isolated incidents with the police tonight, but nothing major. Rapper and Oakland native Too Short made an appearance! Full report to follow...
Uh, if you shoot someone, you better shoot to kill. Center mass.
www.indybay.org/
Looks like there was a little action tonight after all. I wonder how the corporate media is going to spin this...
And check this out, apparently some people didn't like my article.
anarchistnews.org/
And check this out, apparently some people didn't like my article.<<
Maybe it's just me, but the punk rock hot topix kind of "anarchists" always sound so naive and immature to me. Kind of innocent, even.
LS, I liked your article.
Wednesday, January 14th, 2009
I was a bit late arriving to the rally, and missed the opening statements, when it was announced that Mehserle had finally been arrested. The crowd was much bigger and more diverse than before, and so was the police presence. They were itching for a fight I think, many of them wore zipties in their belts, to be used as handcuffs if need be. I listened to speeches by members of C.A.P.E. the coalition against police executions, and M.O.N.A. mothers of never again. I took part in a demonstration where we lay on the ground in front of the stage with our hands behind our backs, imitating Oscar Grant’s position when he was shot and killed. They read the names of many other people who had been killed by police, and after each name we cried, “Please don’t shoot!”
Mayor Ron Dellums took the stage, to a chorus of boos, and encouraged the crowd to “Take pride in your activism.” He also encouraged everyone to remain peaceful, a sentiment that was echoed many times throughout the night. A group of young people read the five demands of the people. Here is a brief summary of those demands.
1. Immediate indictment of Johannes Mehserle for murder.
2. Resignation or retirement of Tom Orloff, District Attorney of Alameda County.
3. The release of the names of all officers involved in the shooting of Oscar Grant, and the filing of any and all charges relating to said shooting.
4. The creation of a BART P.D. citizens review board.
5. BART and the city of Oakland to give restitution to the community to be used in the creation of programs to stop violence and police brutality.
Next, rapper and Oakland native Too Short briefly took the stage. He said the protest rallies and marches and the resulting community togetherness and organization were a “very intelligent effort” and stressed the need to keep it peaceful. A prayer was said, and then the evenings march began.
We marched from city hall to the Alameda County Administrative Building, near the courthouse. I followed close behind a group of black clad anarchists, keeping an eye out for the pretty troublemaker from before, but while there were some of the same people from the night of the 7th in attendance, she and her boyfriend were not among them. Once again, cries of “No justice, no peace!” and “I am Oscar Grant!” filled the air.
At the Admin Building, there were more speeches given and more chanting and sign waving. I stayed with the anarchists, standing atop a brick wall across the street. As the speakers took to the podium, among them Oscar Grant Senior, I spoke with some of the anarchists, and felt confident that they weren’t there to destroy stuff, but if someone else started it, they would be happy to join in. I think I was a little hard on them last time, most of them are good kids, if a little misguided. (Okay, so some of them are a lot misguided.) One of the speakers read a letter from a death row inmate that prompted a robust round of cheering from the crowd.
On the march back to city hall, I found myself in the absurd position of holding one of the anarchist banners. I agreed with the sentiment painted on the cloth, but they thought I was one of them, when if they only knew that I was in fact the Lonestoner I would have probably been jumped and soundly beaten.
The march back was uneventful, and I left immediately following the closing ceremonies of the rally, confident that the anarchist kids would cause no trouble. And indeed they didn’t, but a group of young people did attack a Wells Fargo bank that night, and after once again dispensing tear gas, eight arrests were made.
In other news, there’s a walkout for Oscar Grant on January the 16th, and yet another, and probably the final, rally and march to ensure justice for Oscar Grant and to help end police brutality, will be held on MLK day.
Monday, January 19th, 2009. Assemble at 11:30am at the west Oakland BART. March begins promptly at 12 noon. Commemoration rally 12:45pm, Bobby Hutton Park. March continues through west Oakland, with a concluding rally at 2pm, back at the west Oakland BART. Organized by the International People’s Uhuru Movement, with a little help from yours truly. That’s correct, this time I actually AM one of the organizers! Come out and help us bring an end to 41 years of systematic killing by those sworn to serve and protect!
For more info or to join the movement: www.inpdum.org
inpdum_oakland@yahoo.com
www.revolutionaryworkersgroup.org
rworkersg@yahoo.com
:+}
Another in-depth and well-written report.....well done, Lonestoner.
Thanks guys.
The walkout on the 16th resulted in the arrest of four high school students, but as far as I know there was no rioting. Barring any unforseen events at the Uhuru rally on MLK day, there shouldn't be any more until we know for sure whether or not the other officers involved will be charged. That could get ugly...
If you read the comments under the last one you can see how some of the anarchist douchebags have placed comments supposedly from IMPDUM, only with a link to porn. Cheap underhanded tactics to undermine what we are trying to do. Cowardly Swine...
That Huffington Post article is good stuff. I especially like the fact that he didn't single out good people like Lonestoner, who are trying to change the system in a nonviolent manner, from those who use the pretense of anarchism to justify their actions.
I stand by my earliest assertion that involved burners need to stay nonviolent in the pursuit of change.
*Bump*
If you live in the Bay Area, I encourage you to come out to the rally and march tomorrow. See my previous post for details.
Spent all of last night posting flyers for the event, it felt good, reminded me of my tagger days in a way. Today I was at the Uhuru House most of the day, painting a banner and making signs. Dead tired but feeling good!
Cheers!
Lonestoner,
I encourage you to do only two things:
1. Remain non-violent.
2. Remain respectful of your fellow man.
The two are probably one and the same. Blessings on you in your pursuit, and I hope all goes well and peacefully.
No worries Rhino, as one of the organizers for this event I kind of have to remain peaceful to set an example, not that I have any desire to do otherwise. Not yet at least. And I always respect my fellow man, even when I'm kicking his teeth in.
;+}
So no riot for me, at least not tomorrow, but thanks for the DK track anyway Avishai, I've been rocking out to Jello and his crew for years! Good track!
:+}
cbs5.com/local/BART.po....2.917325.html
rawstory.com/news/2008/O...re_0125.html
I don't think I can bear to watch right now.
www.sfchroniclemarketplace.com/cg...cgi
Sorry folks, I guess I was too involved in this rally/march to want to write about it, every time I sat down at the computer with the intention of banging out some kind of article I ended up starting a short story instead. I considered posting those instead, but one was a blatant Harry Potter ripoff and the other was a teenage romance gone horribly wrong story that doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I'll spare you just this once.
I would like to reiterate that should the officers involved in that nasty business at the BART station fail to be charged Oakland will not be the place to be, if you live here stay inside and lock the doors.
:+}
I think the thing between Oakland and its cops, and between and amoung the citizens of Oakland is tragically awry. Even if there was a good mayor this would be a disaster. Is this the worst it's ever been there? I know it had a high murder rate in the 70s or 80s. (I know that a murder rate isn't the only or the best indication of the health of a city, but it does indicate that something's wrong.) Whatever's going on, I don't see it changing soon.
You're right, Crypto, in that the death of Oscar Grant is symptomatic of a larger problem with the BART police and the mayor as well. You're also right that an elevated murder rate is not a 'leading indicator' as to a city's lack of health.
St. Louis a few years back had the highest murder rate in the country until someone politely pointed out that the statistical basis for the number of deaths was for what's called a Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area, a demographer's tool to indicate economic and social change within an area. In this case, the SMSA included East St. Louis, which is in Illinois. The Mississippi River actually created a geographical barrier to the crime rate to some degree, and the murder rate changed overnight. There are areas in East St. Louis it's not prudent to drive through at night.
What's the problem? I suspect it's a lack of hope among the residents, for starters.
>What's the problem? I suspect it's a lack of hope among the residents, for starters.
Hmm... well... I don't know about that. Lack of hope/opportunity/prospects can certainly be incentives for lawless or anti-social behavior. But that sure doesn't directly equate to a ruthless police force.
Joseph MacNamara took over the beleaguered San Jose PD after many years of documented profiling, discrimination, and abuse of citizens. Within several years it was one of the most respected forces in the country, and he was in high demand as a consultant and speaker on police/community affairs. Within several years of his resignation the force was back to it's old tricks, and is currently not commanding much respect from the public. Sure enough, more questionable shootings, unnecessary force, and citizen complaints.
Point being, it's a lack of leadership, vision. professionalism, oversight and responsibility that lead to the kind of situation that BART and Oakland find themselves in. Hire a professional chief who demands accountability and who actually believes in the mission of a police dept being to "protect and serve" rather than oppress and harrass, and you've got a whole different ball game on your hands.
The single biggest problematic aspect of modern policing is the culture of impunity in which so many forces operate, and to which so many officials and politicians turn a blind eye. That and the fact that citizens all too often fail to demand accountability from their officials and the officers who commit these atrocities. NOTHING will change until this last fact changes.
The mayor? Well... this problem WAY predates Dellums, and will likely long outlive his reign. Sure, he hasn't done much about this, but he hasn't done much about ANYTHING, so I'm not sure it makes much sense to include him in a definition of the root cause. Sure, he could have a big impact on it if he chose to. But I doubt he will. A new chief and DA could have a monumental impact.
East St Louis and East Palo Alto were trading honors for years as "Murder Capital of the US" a while back. There are some striking similarities between the two that go way beyond the fact that they are (or were, anyway) both overwhelmingly impoverished black post-rural communities. Another factor to keep in mind is that the statistics are given *per capita*, and both these communities are very small in terms of population.
> Is this the worst it's ever been there?
Not by a long shot. (In terms of police brutality and misconduct, anyway.) The 80s and 90s were horrendous. The "Riders" being the most publicized eample thereof.
The murder statistics have been pretty bad the last couple of years however, outdone only by the fact that the percentage of murders solved is about as low as it has ever been.
Lets turn the pressure on again.
No justice, No peace! BAY AREA REPRESENT!
2:00pm Friday, January 30, 2009
Alameda County Courthouse Dept 011
1225 Fallon St, Oakland, CA
COME AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE (9AM!!! if you can)
INVITE ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS !!!
www.facebook .com/event. php?eid=47470342 963
Its that time again, people.
It was not DA Tom Orloff that filed murder charges against Mehserle.
WE FILED THOSE CHARGES. On Jan 7th and 14th, we forced a response from
what had been, and what remains a most unwilling, unaccountable,
unresponsive, and corrupt institution. These charges are truly the
people's charges, and we gotta represent at the courthouse when he
faces them.
Moreover, even as the murderer Mehserle is in court for his bail
hearing, a whole band of other police criminals is still running free,
armed and dangerous. This week we learned the same DA is refusing to
charge Officer Tony Pirone, who escalated the violence by beating
Oscar and then holding him down while Mehserle executed him! We got it
on video too. For its part, all BART can seem to offer is another
bogus promise (stall tactic) "investigation" .
And just put this on your radar, we still gotta talk about holding
those other BART officers or the BART Police Chief and his
administration accountable for their roles in illegally confiscating
cellphones to cover up this crime, for the false arrests of the victims
of the violence and witnesses to the murder, for their roles as
knowing accomplices. And we got the BART Board and the DA to sort out
too... but first things first...
www.facebook .com/event. php?eid=4747. ..
Alternate links for the Facebook-challenged ?
*shameless bump*
It's been a long time coming...
forwarded email:
3 upcoming events this week!
============ ========= ===
Wednesday Evening: See JR Valrey's film "OPERATION: SMALL AXE" in Berkeley
www.indybay. org/newsitems/ 2009/10/23/ 18626442. php
Thursday Evening: Community Organizing Meeting in West Oakland
www.indybay. org/newsitems/ 2009/10/26/ 18626798. php
Friday Morning: Come Support JR Valrey in court in Downtown Oakland.
www.facebook .com/event. php?eid=15781994 1957&ref=ts
============ ========= ====
Quick updates on the situation:
============ ========= ====
1. The Mehserle trial is being moved. The court will decide where on Friday.
2. Bits and pieces of the secret (independent) Meyers Nave report have been leaked and they seem to confirmed everything we said from the start. Including that ALL OF THE COPS are responsible for the murder, not just Mehserle.
3. BART still won't do the right thing.
* Killer cops Tony Pirone and Marysol Domenici are on paid leave and still on the job.
* The other 4 killer cops (Noel Flores, Jonathan Guerra, Emery Knudtson and Jon Woffinden) have returned to work. REMEMBER THEIR NAMES AND KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR THESE CREEPS. If you see them working, send us an email about when and where you saw them!
* Chief Gee will resign in December, but he is still on the job for now.
* GM Dorothy Dugger is still on the job.
* The Board of Directors is still spineless and refuses to take on these murderers and the people who are protecting them.
============ ========= =======
For more in depth information visit:
============ ========= =======
www.indybay.org/oscargrant
"* Killer cops Tony Pirone and Marysol Domenici are on paid leave and still on the job.
* The other 4 killer cops (Noel Flores, Jonathan Guerra, Emery Knudtson and Jon Woffinden) have returned to work. REMEMBER THEIR NAMES AND KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR THESE CREEPS. If you see them working, send us an email about when and where you saw them!
* Chief Gee will resign in December, but he is still on the job for now.
* GM Dorothy Dugger is still on the job.
* The Board of Directors is still spineless and refuses to take on these murderers and the people who are protecting them. "
Lonestoner, you are an ass. Really.
Fuck your lynch mob mentality. Last I checked I still lived in a country where the court determines guilt or innocence not the inflammatory rantings of a clueless, agenda driven ass monkey.
1. If you bothered to read the beginning of the post you may have noticed the words "forwarded email." In other words, I didn't write it.
That being said, I do happen to believe most of what it says. The "killer cops" as they are referred to in the text, have either killed themselves or they were involved in trying to cover up the coldblooded killing of one Oscar Grant, an unarmed man in handcuffs. I support Oakland Copwatch oaklandcopwatch.blogspot.com/ because it's a documented fact that the Oakland Police have been killing people needlessly for years. So yes, if you see them working, send an email. Agenda driven? Abso-fuckin-lutely! My agenda is to no longer allow those with power to be able to do whatever they want to those with none. It's not a question of the court determining guilt or innocence, the whole thing was caught on video from a couple different angles for fuck's sake! Here's one of them:
www.youtube.com/watch
So Fuck You Badger, you pompous ignoramus! Last time I CHECKED I still lived in a country where I'm free to do all ranting, inflammatory or otherwise, that I damn well please!
>>The "killer cops" as they are referred to in the text, have either killed themselves or....<<
Don't toy with my heart. I googled for a couple of minutes in a state of shameless giddy excitement before I realized I was parsing your verbs incorrectly.
THE COMMA: such a teensy little glyph, and yet, it's sometimes a quasar of oceans of meaning.
Sigh. No bacon today.
"So Fuck You Badger, you pompous ignoramus!"
"If the point is sharp, and the arrow is swift, it can pierce through the dust no matter how thick." -BD
This post is funny.
Oscar Grant is the kind of guy who if you met him in a dark alley...............would rob you if he thought he could/would get away with it.
So go protest white hippies........
<Oscar Grant is (sic) the kind of guy who if you met him in a dark alley...............would rob you if he thought he could/would get away with it.>
Has The Smoking Gun published his rap sheet?
I do believe, from what I've read of the case, that Oscar Grant was employed as a butcher in a grocery store and supporting a family at the time of the shooting. Plus, he was sitting on his flexicuffed hands when he was shot. I don't know about his 'rap sheet', but will look further.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART..._Grant_III
Oscar Juliuss Grant III, (February 27, 1986[31] – January 1, 2009), was the father of a 4-year-old daughter and lived in Hayward, California.[15] Grant had worked as a butcher at Farmer Joe's Marketplace in Oakland's Dimond District after previous jobs at several Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets.[9] He attended both San Lorenzo and Mount Eden High Schools in Hayward until the 10th grade and eventually earned his GED.[9]
Grant served two state prison terms for various felonies including a conviction for drug dealing.[32] In 2007 he was sentenced to 16 months at Alameda County Jail in Dublin for fleeing "from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol".[9] During that incident, near his Hayward home, San Leandro police shot him with a Taser to subdue him after he threw the pistol into the air and ran.[9] The arresting officers testified that even after being Tased, Grant "continued to resist efforts of the officers to handcuff him".[33]
Grant was released from prison September 23, 2008, and according to the attorney for Grant's family, John Burris, "had been doing well in recent months".[9] Burris also stated that the criminal conviction and Tasing was "irrelevant to the BART shooting because Mehserle wasn't aware of it when he opened fire".[9][34]
In the motion for bail, Mehserle's attorney, Michael Rains, stated that toxicology testing of Grant's blood revealed the presence of alcohol (0.02%) and Fentanyl, a strong narcotic pain reliever.[8] The coroner's bureau said the pathologist's autopsy protocol would be finalized in March 2009.[35]
Well, glenzzz, looks like you've been sleeping.
"Burris also stated that the criminal conviction and Tasing was "irrelevant to the BART shooting because Mehserle wasn't aware of it when he opened fire"."
Two questions for you:
1. What will satisfy you when a man who was convicted, sentenced, and served his term is shot by the police to not say something that impugns him without cause?
2. Why are you trying to insult people here by calling them 'white hippies'?
Just curious.
Just because a man had a few run-ins with the law, that automatically makes him some kind of dark alley robber? Does a checkered past justify shooting that person in the back? What the Fuck? I guess that means that I would also rob you in a dark alley if I thought I could get away with it. That's what you get for hanging around dark alleys in Oakland after dark!
;+}
Also, hippies are like Skittles, they come in all the colors of the rainbow.
-LS
Lonestoner......Shhhhhhh.....if you say "rainbow" a unicorn might show up.
We have enough problems to deal with.
Unicorn? I thought if you said "rainbow" a hippy would show up.
I am soooooo out of the loop. /:-?
What I'm saying white hippie...............
Is that I find it ironic that so much white hippie angst is being focused on Oscar Grant, because he was a predator who would have robbed or murdered you white hippie.
Oakland has a plethora of innocent murder victims that the guilty white hippie could concentrate on...............so why is the white hippie focused on Oscar Grant..? ONLY because a white police officer was involved I would proffer..................
It allows the white hippie to exclaim to the world that he is focused on the plight of the black man..........and that the white hippie is empathetic...........the white hippie is good...............
glenzzz, you're still not awake. You're *making* it a race issue. The problem is, since you haven't figured it out yet(and why you haven't I have no clue), is that Oscar Grant was shot IN THE BACK, while he was ON THE GROUND. If I were Lonestoner, and the victim were black, white, red, purple with green polkadots, it wouldn't matter because I would still be protesting the use of EXCESSIVE and UNJUSTIFIED force.
These situations tend to get out of control pretty quickly. It takes cool heads and teamwork on the part of the police to avoid bloodshed.
So, glenzzzzz:
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!
"Does a checkered past justify shooting that person in the back? What the Fuck? I guess that means that I would also rob you in a dark alley if I thought I could get away with it."
Predictable that you're all defensive and willing to cry 'foul' when one brings up past infractions on the part of the victim but seem unwilling to extend even a miniscule amount of indignation towards the accused before he even has his case tried before a jury of his peers.
Dude, you are a piece of work.
Badger, I just want the accused police officer to stand and be judged in a court of law.
When he crossed the state line in Nevada to avoid the media and local scrutiny.....if it were anybody else it could be called a Federal offense.....ever heard of "Interstate Flight to Avoid Prosecution"?
Now everybody, let's play nice before it gets out of hand. Thanks.
Yeah, well he certainly could have handled it better. He certainly should have.
I have to ask myself if I wouldn't have done the same thing what with the media hounding you, the kreig lights shining on your house/apartment, continuous phone calls from news venues wanting that precious sound bite and, most disturbingly, the phoend in threats by every crack pot in the world telling you that they're gonna kill you. Is there any wonder they guy took off? I actually think I would have.
Thing is he should have phoned a lawyer and gotten decent counsel.
"kreig lights?" for war? It wouldn't surprise me with the current hot nature in Oakland. You'd think they were forming a lynch mob.
I think you mean klieg lights........but I'm just a poor old Rhino who doesn't look as good as he once did under the lights......
It's the hardest thing in the world to maintain the upper road when everyone wants your blood, though, I agree with you on that. And the newsies? Oh my god, they get it SOOOOOOO wrong.
We just had an incident that spiraled out of control today in Jefferson City, Missouri's state capital. Somebody was upset with the alarm company about not providing decent security precautions, or so the story goes...and then they asked the alarm people what would happen if there were a hostage situation?
Within the next 5 minutes, there were police cordoning off a nine block area adjacent to the Governor's Mansion. The local police, after they had established that THEY, not the Highway Patrol or the Capitol Police, were in charge, brought in an RV...one of those new armored cars they use on riots. SWAT team with sharpshooters on adjacent buildings. The local news station had reporters on the ground of the State Capitol, and they were Twittering back an forth about what was going on. How friggin' stupid could they be? If it had been a real incident, the perps would have picked up the tactical disposition of the police right off the Internet. Even the Lieutenant Governor was Twittering - Republican dumbass that he is. I found out about it 6 minutes after the cordon closed, and I was two miles away. Turns out there was a major misunderstanding between the alarm company and the workers. I'm glad nobody got killed by an overeager sharpshooter/sniper. So, Badger, the moral of the story is, that EVERYBODY needs to settle the hell down before stuff gets so out of control that feelings are hurt and misunderstandings become the prelude to an all-out war.
I still think that the cops and the press should be held accountable for their miscues when they fuck up and mess with people's lives, don't you?
Thanks for adding the kind of clarity, reason, and unique insight that only you can, glumz. Maybe you can tell us more about your personal experience with Oscar Grant. We're all on the edge of our seats.
Thanks for your valuable contribution to the discussion. As usual.
> seem unwilling to extend even a miniscule amount of indignation towards
> the accused before he even has his case tried before a jury of his peers.
>
> Dude, you are a piece of work.
What an ignorant post.
Mesherle (or however the fuck you spell it) will GET his day in court. And the jury will certainly be made up of HIS peers, not Grant's. He doesn't NEED our indignation, suspension of judgement, or anything else really. He's out on bail after murdering a man in cold blood. He's undoubtedly under police protection, and he's likely got pretty decent legal representation.
So what would you have us do for him, exactly?
Stupid.
Grant, on the other hand, is a minority unarmed man, shot in the BACK and killed while handcuffed and physically restrained by an officer of the law, whose sworn duty is to "serve and protect" ALL citizens without regard to race or social status.
Doubt the facts? Watch any of the many vids shot from many angles. Doesn't leave much to the imagination. And if there's something we're missing, it'll certainly come out in the trial. At least Mejhserle will get that opportunity.
In the meantime, the rest of us citizens quietly accommodate the paramilitarization of our civilian police forces, trade away our civil rights for homeland "security", and assume that everything will turn out okay in the end.
"When they came for me, there was no one left to object.."
Dude, you're either blind, ignorant, or simply not paying attention.
****^^^^^notes sarcasm dripping in excess from previous post and vows to make embersandsparks clean up the excess from the floor of the forum.****
I think the handcuffs were miss-reported in the early news reports and it was later said that they weren't in use. It doesn't much detract from the horror and grostequerie of the crime, but it's worth our while to be complaining about real stuff.
There will be another community meeting to organize and strategize for
justice for Oscar Grant this Thursday, November 12th at 7 PM at the
Continental Club, 1658 12th Street in Oakland.
All are welcome.
As an update, a hearing is scheduled on Thursday, November 19th at
2:30 PM in Alameda County courthouse to hear arguments from defense
and prosecution on the two cities being offered as changes of venue.
There will be more information about this, as well as proposals
regarding January 1st, 2009 and continuing work for this group at the
meeting.
Please forward to any who might not be getting this notice.
As stated before Oscar Grant was a violent thug who had repeated run-ins with law enforcement. The odds were in favor of him meeting a violent end.
What happened to him was unfortunate.........but you can't call it murder either hippie......for that you have to have intent.
At worst it was manslaughter...............
So rally for Oscar Grant......you'll have about 8 people there...............
By all accounts this officer was a decent fellow..........who got freaked out in a very high stress situation and fucked up. But remember...........normal people don't find themselves staring down the gun barrel of a police officer on a regular basis..............Oscar Grant did regularly.
He wasn't deserving of his fate......but he did his part in getting there.
Thanks for adding the kind of clarity, reason, and unique insight that only you can, glumz. As usual.
And now you're an expert on LAW?
I call bullshit.
Manslaughter is a felony. The use of a firearm in the commission of a felony that results in a death constitutes murder in the second degree, IF the death is the result of the firearm being discharged, even accidentally. If there's intent, it becomes first-degree.
Also, Oscar had served his time for previous offenses. It's not a slate wiped clean, because it's on his record. Still, you want to tag him as a result of that.
Do us a favor. Think before you pipe up..
I only saw one "staring down a lawman's pistol" on the rap sheet below. And the fact that he completed his GED indicates that maybe he'd grown. Basically, I don't trust many men in the "crime prone years" between 15 and 25. The fact that a guy gets caught doing something stupid then is more indicative of how goofy men are put together (and I very rarely go there--I don't think many things are so aligned with biology) than it is of the worth of any particular young man. Personally, I wouldn't go down a dark alley if I knew either Grant or Meserle were there.
(Sits down and begins writing her post-modern gloss on The Lady or the Tiger...)
Crypto, I also noticed that he had gotten a job as a butcher and was trying to take care of kids as a father. Things to try to put one's life back in order.
And now you know why I live in Missouri and not Oakland. We use guns here to shoot deer and turkey, not each other.
Wow. How can I too attain such wisdom, insight and pervasive knowledge?
> As stated before Oscar Grant was a violent thug who had repeated run-ins with law enforcement.
Dude, we just read the rap sheet. We can judge for ourselves whether two or three incidents constitute "repeated run-ins", or whether this qualifies him as a "violent thug". I certainly don't pretend to have some special insight, and frankly, pretending to just makes you look like a pretentious ass. If it quacks like a duck..., well, you figure it out.
> What happened to him was unfortunate.........but you can't call it murder either hippie......for that you have to have intent.
Oh, but I can. And so can prosecutors and attorneys. Happens every day. Ever heard of second-degree murder? How do walk with your head up your ass so far?
> At worst it was manslaughter...............
No, at worst it was first-degree murder. You don't know what his intent was, and neither do I. Let's see... what was he charged with, exactly? Uhmmmm....
Let's see what the DA Tom Ohrloff, typically an ally of the OPD called it in his press conference, announcing what charges he'd decided to file, based on all available EVIDENCE:
www.youtube.com/watch
Hm. Weird. I could've sworn he said "murder". But I'm old and my hearing ain't what it used to be. And of course, even my mighty intellect is no match for such as you, Professor Glummzzzz.
> So rally for Oscar Grant......you'll have about 8 people there...............
www.youtube.com/watch
You don't get out much, do ya ?
> By all accounts this officer was a decent fellow..........
I take it you missed THIS account of Mehserle's previous misconduct:
www.ktvu.com/news/18600808/detail.html
Amazing that someone of your mental acuity would have missed that, but it's nice to know that you're human after all.
> who got freaked out in a very high stress situation and fucked up.
Uh, he's an OFFICER OF THE LAW who SHOT an UNARMED man IN THE BACK !!
Jesus. "Uh.... yeah, sorry dude. I guess I fucked up."
Right?
> normal people don't find themselves staring down the gun barrel of a police officer on a regular basis..............Oscar Grant did regularly.
Hyperbole? From the likes of you? Surely you're better than this... aren't you? Wait... you couldn't really just be an idiot in diguise, could you? Damn, you sure pulled one over on us if so... you really had me going there for a minute.
> He wasn't deserving of his fate......but he did his part in getting there.
In other news, shocking footage of the blue sky when we return!!
Not sure why your fastidious insistence on ignorance offends me so, but it does.
"you couldn't really just be an idiot in diguise, could you? "
The possibilities in the world as we know it are endless..............
If it quacks like a duck..., well, you figure it out.
You mean Bob Noxious will chime in soon?
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
> I think the handcuffs were miss-reported in the early news reports
I could have sworn I'd seen the cops using big tie wraps to cuff them in one of the vids. Maybe Grant wasn't among them, because as you point out, later reporting states that his hands had not been cuffed. And others claim that he hadn't been searched or patted down yet, which seems very strange if accurate. Yet another report observes that the officer restraining Grant with a knee on his back effectively trapped Grant's arms underneath him as he fell, having just been punched (inexplicably) by another officer.
It just doesn't get better, does it?
Anyway, thanks for the catch, Crypto. Your point is well taken.
If the "Community Justice Network for Youth" defines "youth" as age 10-17, I'm curious why they're wasting valuable press releases on a dead 22 year old.
Looking forward to whatever theme camp this represents, tho.
>>most rabble-rousers don't get the attention they deserve from the cops. But the mostly peaceful marchers sure do.<<
thank you, embers - you're a voice on this thread that's actually keeping me from blowing up in my normal fashion. I agree strongly with your words and empathize 100% with your sentiments.
Plastic bullets and tear gas aren't really all that effective against *actual* marauders, is the thing. Best to go after those that can't *really* fight back.
>>Last I checked I still lived in a country where the court determines guilt or innocence not the inflammatory rantings of a clueless, agenda driven ass monkey. <<
Oh?
What country is that? What does whatever island of rich people you live on have to do with the topic?
Why do you love murderers so much? Is it your hatred for black people? Or just a general hatred of freedom?
Dimwitted stooge of evil.
EDIT: Gosh, it sure reads harsh when I jam my dick into someone's obviously strongly held beliefs and castigate her or him with a logical extreme that I hiked out of my ass whole cloth. Interesting!
But do carry on; I'm sure your non-idiot side shines once you've rubbed one out. Do they have black people, in your country? Do they get shot, much? USA is freaky and often quite rough, lemme tell you. I know you Norwegians and shit are all, like, calm and happy and so forth. DUDE it is SO different, here. Seeing it from your foreigner perspective, I can understand why this all confuses and angers you.
Did they have the huge march yet...?
Maybe ole cottontop Dellums came out............
It's not significantly less meaningless than >>white hippie.<<
By which I mean, thanks for asking, because I was puzzled, too.
'white hippie' - glenzzz's tag for anyone who would go out and march in support of the criminal justice system prosecuting Officer Mehserle for alleged crime against Oscar Grant, when by rights, that should be done to determine guilt or innocence. Ignorant name-calling at best.
'cottontop Dellums' - glenzzz's tag for Ronald Dellums, duly-elected Mayor of Oakland, California, who happens to be black and old enough to have all gray hair on top. Ignorant name-calling at best, could be perceived as racist at worst.
glenzzz........please tone down your name calling, especially where race may be involved. Please.
Does anybody else think that glennzzz must have grown-up going to some really weird private school where kids didn't insult each other? Cause his insults suck.
Oh dear, I'm about to get a warning, too.
Look, I don't know how to explain it, but it's all very airy-fairy, like he hasn't been in touch with his gut since the last time he was praying to the porcelain god. Odd.
"Maybe ole cottontop Dellums came out............ "
Might be referring to Dellums being one of the most ineffectual mayors in Oakland's history.
The man is never present or available to carry through with the job he was elected to do and all inquiries made to his office by the media are handled by his wife who, by many accounts, is the de facto mayor of the city.
Oh, the Dellums regime is a total disaster, no doubt. I'm not completely convinced that that's what glennzzz meant. Honestly, "woolly headed" was right there for the using, and "cotton top" seems vaguely Q-tipesque.
"Oh dear, I'm about to get a warning, too. "
Nope. And glenzzz got a mild one. I was trying to be nice about asking, sort of like a friend nudging you to help out.
But if it were out-and-out hate speech, something a neo-Nazi, Christian Identity type or Klansman might say......I'd talk with Elaine and Bobzilla and we'd prepare for his departure. Advocate violence on another group? Same outcome. We're about RADICAL INCLUSION here, not RADICAL HATE.
"Might be referring to Dellums being one of the most ineffectual mayors in Oakland's history.
The man is never present or available to carry through with the job he was elected to do and all inquiries made to his office by the media are handled by his wife who, by many accounts, is the de facto mayor of the city."
Then why didn't he say something like that?
Maybe 'cause he's better at snide innuendo than actual clear discussion.
For once the Badger and I are in agreement, Dellums is a Lame Duck, he's been phoning it in for a long time. Not good for the city of Oakland.
My comments about Dellums have everything to do with his white shock of hair............and his amazing ineffectiveness. Breathtaking incompetence............
Dellums was ineffective in the Senate........and he has been amazingly ineffective as mayor. Dellums was elected "merely" because of his race. He had no other qualifications that would have led anyone to believe that he could have been an effective administrator of anything on a daily basis.
In Oakland there are plenty of innocent murder victims to hold vigils over. Yet the only time any of the so called activists get a burr under their saddles is when there is an opportunity to put a white face on a perpetrator and make the issue about race, racism. In this instance there is little doubt among reasonable people that the cop just didn't fuck up. As opposed to your daily garden variety of Oakland murder..........which is pre-meditated and involves drugs and/or money.
That day on Bart there were multiple fights/assaults taking place in this particular platform in the minutes leading upto the shooting. There were multiple people (mostly black it appears) shouting epithets at the police. To top it off Oscar Grant was resisting arrest (yet again) Assuming this is a racist execution is popping the cork a little early eh....................and perhaps.........gasp racist.
I would have used "cottonheaded".
Hope this helps.
Oh, and death to the fascist insect that preys upon the life of the people!
"My comments about Dellums have everything to do with his white shock of hair............"
My personal take is that he and Don King have the same stylist.
"Then why didn't he say something like that?"
Surely you're not suggesting that vagueness never makes an appearance on this board.
Badger, please clarify your post. It's too vague. What are you saying or suggesting?
(lol)
<<We use guns here to shoot deer and turkey, not each other.>>
One of the FEW things Californians don't seem to shoot = animals. One of the reasons I moved here. :)
Although, I do with there was a whole lot less shootin goin on everywhere...
<<Although, I do with there was a whole lot less shootin goin on everywhere...>>
I mean "wish". I'm postin like Cindy Brady today, apparently.
"Yet the only time any of the so called activists get a burr under their saddles is when there is an opportunity to put a white face on a perpetrator and make the issue about race, racism. "
HORSESHIT!
Lonestoner........
I call bullshit on you..............there are so many innocent victims of violence in Oakland that you literally can't turn over a rock without finding one.........................
The perpetrators of this violence in Oakland are overwhelmingly black.......................
It just is.......
The child now in a wheelchair for life because he was shot as he sat at a Piano..............the chinese and the indian guys working at their restaurants...........and on and on and on.....
But we never hear a peep out of you little birds about any of that.............
Oh, only when we can put a white face on a perpetrator will you hippies come out of the woodwork and march..................
Oscar Grant wasn't failed by white people, or a white system, or institutionalized racism...........he was failed by his parents.......and by a Union driven corrupt school system that refuses to realize their mission is to educate......and mostly by his own poor decisionmaking and work ethic.
So the streets are filled with violent thugs like Oscar Grant.............................
so horseshit right back to you buddy..........you're the biggest part of the problem.
Faux guilty white burners who just don't think that poor black people are accountable for anything in their lives...................it is the most sickening, condescending thing I've ever seen....................
Patria o muerto, veneceremos!
<<"Yet the only time any of the so called activists get a burr under their saddles is when there is an opportunity to put a white face on a perpetrator and make the issue about race, racism. "
HORSESHIT! >>
Please, no one tell him about Critical Mass. I can't imagine how he'd would polish that up.
glenzzz........
I strongly suggest that you get some statistical evidence to back you up. Because after one trip to wikipedia you end up looking like a fool (is that your intent?).
We know that Oakland, California has a very high crime rate. The African American community there bears the overwhelming brunt of the crime, though it commits the overwhelming number of crimes. Seventy-seven percent of all victims are black. Sixty four point 7 percent of all suspects are also black.
"It just is......." - contributing to the 'just is': 20 percent of the black population lives below the poverty line. Median age of the population is 32 to 33. Oscar grant didn't make it to 24.
Look, if the perpetrator is black or white, it doesn't matter. What DOES matter is whether or not they've committed a CRIME. Oscar Grant hadn't. But the police assumed he had. That makes an assumption. And Oscar Grant was not being a violent thug. That's another assumption. He was complying with the police until they started to get rough.
Evidence of a crime, in this case probably a misdemeanor, is required to charge someone. Mr. Grant had his rights violated, the right of due process beinhg denied. That's what citizens are upset about.
So glenzzz......put a lid on your unsubstantiated accusations. They don't fly too well - sort of like lead balloons. Your attitude is even more condescending and sickening than ours.
I don't give a fuck if an Albino cop shot one of the Blue Man Group, if it's wrong it's fucking wrong!
hey Crypto,
I ride in Critical Mass............if you see me say hi...........I'll pop you in the nose.........
you sick guilty white motherfuckers
glenzzz.........you are now skating on the very thinnest of ice. DO NOT threaten any member of this tribe, like you just did. That is crossing the line in here. A threat of that kind is a TOU violation. I'd back the fuck down and apologize if I were you, and do it now.
How much longer does he have?
He ran out of time. You don't threaten to hit and run here.
Code of Conduct point 1a.:
1. Conduct and Content
While using or accessing the Service--directly or indirectly--you agree to take a constructive tone and practice good etiquette and courtesy and you agree NOT to:
a.threaten, disrupt, inflame, intimidate, libel, stalk, defame, or defraud any individual, entity, or group on any basis including but not limited to age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability or encourage any one else to do so.
That's the justification.
Good call Rhino, but now that you've gone and posted the rules I have to confess to my share inflaming and disruption. I've also been stalking several of the more intelligent and beautiful women in this Tribe for years...
:+0
Lonestoner, it wasn't the inflaming nor the disruption of glenzzz that he got booted. It's the threatening. It isn't done here. I would have pitched your ass if it had been the other way around, in other words, you threatening glenzzz. However, he threatened Crypto, which is in my eyes a big no-no.
Never threaten a lady. Ever. It's the way I was raised.
I couldn't agree more. That was WAY out of line!
Good call, Rhino. Glenz has been pushing it for a very long while, but that was really out of line.
I think the troll patrol is getting the message that the days of spewing here the way you (hopefully) would never imagine doing in a face-to-face conversation are behind us.
"I only saw one "staring down a lawman's pistol" on the rap sheet below. "
I have been in the middle of a ring of shotgun pointing law enforcement. Twice. Ironic because there are few people more in love with the idea of "shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out" than I am.
It's actually much easier than you'd imagine.
Thank you, MdJGutie.
"Troll Patrol"? I guess they have now met.........
THE MOD SQUAD!
*Rhino adjusts his love beads, puts on his patchouli, and then puts on his badge......."Tribe PD -to protect and serve hard liquor"*
Glenz has been around for a while. He's pushed buttons, he's made his conservative view-points well known and and he's engendered more than a few back and forth discussions which have gotten pretty heated. But to my knowledge he's NEVER made a threat like the one that (rightlfully) got him booted. So, when I read
"Good call, Rhino. Glenz has *been pushing it for a very long while*, but that was really out of line"
I get this nauseous fucking feeling in the pit of my stomach because - more often than not - what's usually meant is "That <insert poster's name here> is an asshole and I don't agree with a DAMN thing s/he says. His conservatism/idea/beliefs/point-of-view pisses me off and pushes my buttons so I'm glad he's out of here."
That guy Adam a year or so back is a stellar example of what I'm referring to.
Personally, I find that just as fucking abhorrent as any threat goes - real or implied. So while I commend the thread monitors here I find the joyous relief that someone's comfort zone has conveniently been re-established Glenz's tossing to be absolutely puke-worthy.
"Glenz has been around for a while. He's pushed buttons, he's made his conservative view-points well known and and he's engendered more than a few back and forth discussions which have gotten pretty heated. But to my knowledge he's NEVER made a threat like the one that (rightlfully) got him booted."
I've got nothing for or against glenz. And, Badger, even though you rub some the wrong way I will defend your right to do so as long as you are here, provided there are no threats. If at some future date, glenz decides to apologize to Crypto and do so publicly here, while affirming that no threats will be made, Bobzilla, Elaine and I will (rightfully) let him back in.
I didn't agree with Adam at all, and he's still here, though lurking, I'm sure. No reason to toss someone simply because they don't agree with you. How many times have I called bullshit? Should I be thrown? They don't pay mods to put up with some of the baloney we do. We do it as a gift to the community of burners that we love dearly.
We have zero tolerance for threats.
Why is this completely off topic conversation still going on?
Because life is complicated, and it helps to hash things out with other people.
Ya know Rhino, your words read almost as if you took my last post to be aimed at you - which it wasn't.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
My words weren't aimed at Badger, Tantric MuffinPussy, or anyone here. I apologize if you thought I singled you out. That was not my intent.
I'm frustrated a little because booting is (and rightfully should be) the final resort of the moderator. It was the last thing that I wanted to do. The information available to the community is now diluted a little bit in perspective with glenzzz's absence.
Badger AKA Tantric Muffinpussy...you forgot to log out of your alt in order to respond to Rhino.
Too bad you cant delete this thread.
" `Good call, Rhino. Glenz has *been pushing it for a very long while*, but that was really out of line"
I get this nauseous fucking feeling in the pit of my stomach because - more often than not - what's usually meant is "That <insert poster's name here> is an asshole and I don't agree with a DAMN thing s/he says. His conservatism/idea/beliefs/point-of-view pisses me off and pushes my buttons so I'm glad he's out of here.’ "
Geez, Badger. You know I don't want your poor tummy upset, so let me clear up what I actually meant, so you don't get your tantric muffin pussy panties in a bunch over what you think I meant.
What I meant was that Glenz has been pushing the limits of impolite conversation for a while. Not that he was pushing my buttons. I actually root for the folks with the badges 99.99999999999999% of the time (and that is even after I had all those government issued shotguns pointed at me). I worked with criminal defense attorneys for a decade. I considered them good people and friends, then and now. Their clients, on the other hand, I wouldn't welcome into my home or my neighborhood. Despite my nice genetic tan and Spanish name, in cases like these, I assume the guy with the rap sheet is guilty until proven innocent. Sorry if that doesn't mesh with your little rant here, but my comfort zone is nice and comfy on the Oscar bashing.
Glennz wasn't saying much I disagreed with on his Oscar calls, but that little bit addressed to the Fish was out of line and shouldn’t be tolerated, is what I meant. Rhino gave him a chance, and beyond that, a call to offer a retraction or explanation. That seemed to me more than fair, is what I meant.
So, I agreed with Glennz and still was glad to see him removed, because he wasn't playing by the rules. I have to assume you now don't find my statement, "Good call, Rhino. Glenz has *been pushing it for a very long while*, but that was really out of line" to be nauseating, "fucking abhorrent," and/or "absolutely puke-worthy." Because, as we all know, it's all really about your comfort zone, isn't it?
This thread threatens my tolerance for insipid moderation. Please take it down.
Sorry, Bob...We do our best NOT to take down threads here. In fact they're usually anchored with AB Chance helical foundation anchors. I get 'em cheap, because I have friends that work for Chance.
Insipid moderation my hairy humor-filled Rhino ass.
Isn't the point that this is OT?
fucking take this conversation elsewhere.
I agree, PLEASE refrain from any more petty bickering in my thread.
Lonestoner,
To avoid people bickering in future threads, please post them in a tribe that is appropriate for the subject matter, or mark them as being off topic to begin with. I was very surprised that this didn't get nuked immediately as a political troll, as it should have been. When you try to cram a message down the throats of unwilling people, they tend to react poorly. Choosing to post a flagrantly off topic thread in a very large tribe to get the maximum exposure is very impolite. Please be more considerate in the future.
He did try to mark it as OT, he just didn't know the way to do that was to use "OT." Instead he used "I know it doesn't go here..." So it's a matter of nuance rather than flagrent imposition of his topic.
just sayin'
Yeah, what she said! Also, no one is forcing you to click on the thread or read any of the posts, so in what way is this trying to cram a message down anyone's throat?? It started as a simple, OT invitation to attend a rally, that's all. If I was going to cram ANYTHING down anyone's throat, it sure as hell wouldn't be a message!
So let me get this straight, by putting "OT" in the subject line, you can pretty much post anything you want?
That's like saying, "with all due respect..." and then thinking that saying anything you want is entirely okay.
www.youtube.com/watch
The irony here is that lonestoner is bitching about posts in his OT thread about an event long since past, when as the OP he could yank it himself.
~B~: So let me get this straight, by putting "OT" in the subject line, you can pretty much post anything you want?
From Elaine: This thread has become a thread people seem to be interested in, so I am would rather let people have a conversation about things that happen in our society than be a Thread Nazi today. Plus, it was pretty clearly labeled off topic of sorts, so I am cutting some slack on it.
Crypto: The moderators decided to let this stand. So perhaps this is done on a case by case basis.x
Rapunzel,
Are you the last clown to hop on board the Clue Train?
Badger and I are one just as Badger and Isotopia are one over on the eplaya. There's no secret to that.
Too bad you can't delete your clue deficiency.
Oh no, please don't yank the thread. I wanna go further into thread drift, because I have a question.
In so far as a term that depends on a subject as squishy as race means anything, doesn't "White Hippie" pretty much define the majority of Critical Mass riders?
If I were into bad Freudian speculation, I'd be wondering if Glennzzz wasn't some sort of self-hating White Hippie himself.
"Oh no, please don't yank the thread. I wanna go further into thread drift, because I have a question. "
I'm not going to answer this, and take the thread further off-topic just to mess with you, Crypto.
I'm waiting for Rob to arrive, our self-appointed "thread killer".......lol
That's all right, Rhino. I don't expect you have the frame of reference to answer my question.
Actually, now that you mention it, aren't most hippies white? I mean, weren't the hippies the disaffected children of the upper and middle class whites? I know there was a black hippy or two in "Hair," but when I picture a "hippy," it's always a Caucasian.
The reason I didn't just delete the thread is because I've grown rather attached to it, it's a subject that's near and dear to my heart. Also, it's an ongoing subject and I thought I should keep the thread alive until after the trial/trials. But it's become a bit of a monster so sometime tomorrow, after a short memorial service, I will lay this thread to rest. I will then post a new thread containing all the relevant information and my favorite posts and start anew.
I don't like it when threads are pulled. It smacks of re-writing history to please ourselves.
And, for what it's worth, we may want to remember someday why Glennzzz was booted.
Exaactly! At the very least it's redundant. And kinda stupid. And from his photos, Glennzzz is "white" too. Why would he then use "white" as an insult? It doesn't make much sense. Of course, I could be barking up the wrong tree with that.
Being I'm in Missouri and not San Francisco, Crypto, you're probably right....I don't have the SF perspective. I just admit it and go on.
>>Why would he then use "white" as an insult? It doesn't make much sense. Of course, I could be barking up the wrong tree with that.<<
It's not meant to be insulting by itself. Glenzzz's racism is researchable through a number of tribes, and can be easily understood when one accounts that Glenzzz also believes *you* are a racist. His exact insult is, essentially: "you feel guilty for being white". White Hippie Guilt is a strange trope that Glenzzz may have invented himself; it requires adopting his mindset to comprehend - which explains why so few on this site 'get' him. On Stormfront and WAR and various other similar fora, Glenzz would have no trouble making himself understood.
Interestingly, inasmuch as G assumes white people feel guilty, he also assumes nonwhites are violent criminals, even going so far as to pretend that there are "facts" which support his bias - though he has, as far as I'm aware, never actually been able to produce any documentation or cite which would verify that that's the case.
Here, he is a minority. On the playa, as well. In what many of you like to refer to as "the default world," he runs free and unchecked, and many self-loathing white hippies secretly and fearfully agree with even the most vulgar of the dumb panicked assloads he habitually spews out. He's not a very intelligent person - but, fortunately for him, he doesn't have to be, at all. No one opposes him; it is thought to be of greater importance to meditate, render one's own perceptions more "positive", and indulge one's inclination toward frivolous play.
> Dellums was ineffective in the Senate
Wrong.
> Dellums was elected "merely" because of his race.
Wrong. (utter conjecture)
> He had no other qualifications that would have led anyone to believe that he could have been an effective administrator of anything on a daily basis.
Wrong.
> the only time any of the so called activists get a burr under their saddles is when there is an opportunity to put a white face on a perpetrator and make the issue about race, racism.
Wrong.
> there is little doubt among reasonable people that the cop just didn't fuck up.
Laughably wrong.
> That day on Bart there were multiple fights/assaults taking place in this particular platform in the minutes leading upto the shooting.
Astoundingly wrong.
> There were multiple people (mostly black it appears) shouting epithets at the police.
Wrong and wrong again. Unless "Hey" and "Cool it" are epithets in your book. And if so, I'd be happy to personally redefine epithet for you.
> Oscar Grant was resisting arrest (yet again)
Are you blind as well as dumb?
> Assuming this is a racist execution
AH. Now I see. But I"m afraid it's you who's done the assuming. As far as I can see, you're the first troll to call it that. So maybe we should just leave you to argue with yourself ?
Man, is this still going on?
Anyway, the short version is when glenn and folks like him call folks "white hippie", what they really mean is "race traitor".
bingo; I defer to my more succinct colleague
Too much going on today, so this thread will live another day.
Too much going on today, so this thread will live one more day.
Then can I at least ask why, if Glennzzz objects to "white guilt," why it isn't hypocritical of him to participate in an event that is designed to induce liberal/enviro-guilt?
Of course it would be hypocritical - and frankly, I seriously doubt he rides in Critical Mass.
Kelly, he's assured me that he does indeed ride in Critical Mass. And though many think he's a Republican tool, he's not. glennzzz has even been to Burningman.
This must be a joke of some kind. How does that parse? My uncle is a republican tool and he goes to BM. He goes there with other Republican tools. They all have a great time and they don't even say stupid / evil things about the other spectators until they get home and vacuum out their SUVs.
Vanish the fucker.
<Kelly, he's assured me that he does indeed ride in Critical Mass>
Well, if someone says it on the internet, it MUST be true.
I'm exercising my right to change my mind. The thread stays, bullshit drifting and all. Carry on!
>>cottontop Dellums<
what does that even mean? >>
A racist insult against elderly black people, still quite popular in the South among the region's declining number of Kluxer shitbags.
<< Dellums was elected "merely" because of his race. >>
Bullshit. The guy's been in politics since the 1960s and USED to have a fairly good rep.
>>The guy's been in politics since the 1960s and USED to have a fairly good rep. <<
And his utter incompetence as a mayor should, in no way, actually take away from his competence as a congressman. He was good at it. Being a representative is a very different animal than being a mayor, and the skill sets may not overlap much.
How white of you.
Again, what theme camp is this?
The theme camp for insipid moderators.
<And though many think he's a Republican tool, he's not.>
Actually, he is a republican tool. Just of the self-loathing variety that identifies themselves as "Libritarian"
Shameless self promotion Camp! Come by and serve me drinks I'll tell you all about how great I am!
;+}
The only time I've ever seen that term used is when racists are referring to a Caucasian who dates or is married to a person of another race - uually a black person.
I think that there was a german (nazi) equivalent, but yeah, it's hard core racism.
In the string I created while I was wondering about the term "white hippie" I had it a notch or two above n_____-lover, which was a notch above race-traitor and somewhere on teh bottom was some pithy senseless term that meant welfare mother of color spawning yet another baby to keep her on the dole.
I know I don't understand what goes on in glennzzz's head, but that was my guess.
You mean Libertarian....the Glenn Beck crowd of ignorance.
> And though many think he's a Republican tool
Well, one outta two ain't bad.
More pub for John Burris...
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi
Another arrest on BART with violence caught on cell phone video. No one dies, but the arresting officer has to go to the hospital. Well, he basically pushed someone through a window and got caught by broken glass.
Okay, I haven't seen the footage, but a trusted friend tells me it's brutal.
Whatever the morals and intentions of Oscar Grant, BART Police are out of control. They better put in that citizen oversight soon, and retrain the officers.
And it's quite possible that I'm a bit hyperbolic here, it always takes a few days for the basic scenario to filter out.
Crypto, it's already had over 18,000 views on YouTube:
www.youtube.com/watch
From one perspective, the BARTofficer was correct in removing the man from the train. However, my support for the officer does tend to drop when he puts the young man's face through the glass window outside the train.
Of course, we need to know the context in which this incident occurred before actions are taken BY ANYONE.
Using Bob's link from above:
(11-23) 18:07 PST OAKLAND -- The lawyer for the BART rider whose videotaped arrest by a transit police officer resulted in injuries to both men when the suspect was pushed into a glass window says he will sue the agency for alleged civil rights violations and police brutality.
John Burris, an Oakland civil rights attorney, said Monday that his office will represent Michael Joseph Gibson both on criminal charges stemming from the arrest Saturday evening and a civil suit that he says he will lodge later.
Gibson, 37, of San Leandro, suffered cuts on his right arm when the glass panel atop a concrete wall at the West Oakland station shattered as he was being arrested. The officer who pulled him off a Pittsburg-Bay Point train at 5:45 p.m., after riders complained that Gibson was being unruly and threatening, suffered a gash to his head and a concussion.
BART has not released the name of the officer, who has been put on paid leave. The agency said he joined the transit police in May after working for six years as a Contra Costa County sheriff's deputy.
A rider on the train captured the arrest on a cell phone video and posted it on YouTube. BART officials said they will investigate not only the incident but also why the station window shattered into large, dangerous shards.
Gibson, whose family says he has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, was in Santa Rita Jail in Dublin on charges of resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Bail was set at $51,500.
In the video, Gibson is standing on the train and yelling, "Who wants to play?! King of the mountain!" followed by largely unintelligible shouting that includes an obscenity. After a passenger tells Gibson to get off the train, the officer appears and says, "Please get off the train now," as he grabs Gibson.
Other riders can be heard applauding as the officer walks Gibson briskly across the platform. When they get to the wall, the officer appears to give Gibson a small shove into the glass, which shatters.
"I'm particularly offended by the criminal charges - that he was arrested for assault on a police officer - because it was the officer who was the aggressive person, and the officer who manhandled him and threw him against the window," Burris said.
"These are cover-up charges, because Mr. Gibson did not do the crimes he was arrested for," Burris said. "The officer, by charging them, he is covering for his own misconduct."
Burris said Gibson might be guilty of disturbing the peace. "But the manner in which the officer grabbed him and assaulted him was unjustified," he said.
Gibson has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals for years, Burris said. He was discharged from Alameda County's John George Psychiatric Pavilion in Oakland within the past few days after being hospitalized since October, Burris said.
Saturday's run-in in West Oakland was not the first of the day for Gibson. At 11 a.m., Daly City police said, an officer arrested Gibson for allegedly kicking an 84-year-old man on a Samtrans bus that was stopped at the Serramonte mall. He cited for a misdemeanor and released, police said.
Burris called the incident minor. "He is an impaired person, he is on Social Security disability - he has a long history," Burris said.
In addition to questioning the arrest, Burris said he was concerned about the safety of glass panels in outdoor BART stations. In this case, he said, "that glass shattered in such a way it was fortunate that someone was not more severely injured."
Linton Johnson, spokesman for BART, said the agency is investigating the incident and is trying to determine whether there are safety issues concerning the glass.
Burris is also representing the family of Oscar Grant, the unarmed rider who was shot to death early New Year's Day at the Fruitvale Station by an officer who was trying to arrest him. Grant's mother and his girlfriend, the mother of his young daughter, are seeking $50 million from the agency and several police officers, including the former officer accused of murdering Grant, Johannes Mehserle.
Johnson said BART is looking into whether the officer in Saturday's incident used a proper amount of force. As for Burris' comments, he said, "we will take his allegations as seriously as we take everybody else's."
From the San Francisco Chronicle's website.
Ban public transit, it attracts thugs.
Ban jobs that require commuting with mentally unstable goons.
Ban BART, it *exploits* the *ecology*.
First step? Ban transit cops. They're *so* oppressive. Whenever I see a BART cop, I fear for my life. Sitting in my BART seat, thumbing through the Bay Fucking Guardian desperately looking for the nonexistent crossword puzzle, all it takes is seeing a reassuring face in a uniform to drive me into a panic.
"Now, apply that to Burning Man. "
I can't. I slipped and fell on the excess sarcasm that dripped off the last post.
Everybody wants an end to thugs. That means we need to get involved where we can. I am. And Burningman is all about radical inclusion. Isn't it awfully radical to give a damn about your fellow man?
Mentally unstable goons? At Burningman, we have Rangers and Green Dot Rangers for that. Rangers to mediate and facilitate, and Green Dots to provide sanctuary if needed. What the hell is causing the mental instability in the first place? Find it and address the problem. Radical self-reliance, bub.
As far as you being nervous when BART cops are around, why's that? Are you holding somebody's stash? The BART cops have a tough and thankless job that they do pretty well. It's the few making the many look bad. There's no excuse for a cop to push someone's face through a plate glass window.
It appears to be a pretty clear case of excessive force, the officer was right to remove the man from the train but he could have just slapped the cuffs on him, did you see the blood on the ground from the poor bastards face? Assault on a police officer? Are you fucking kidding me? The man clearly has a long history of mental illness and he should have been taken back to the psychiatric hospital in Oakland he'd just been released from, not to the hellhole of violence that is the Santa Rita Jail, his only crime as far as I can tell is disturbing the peace. I think I was most disturbed by the reaction of the gentleman doing the recording, he was ecstatic about having just witnessed two people getting hurt. I'm glad I was not on that train.
:+{
I stand corrected. It was the man's arm that broke the glass and not his head as it first appeared to be. Still, how hard did the cop have to push him for his arm to go straight through the glass like that? Pretty harsh...
No doubt the tempered glass shattered on light impact due to weakening by scratch-graffiti vandalism by other mentally impaired BART users.
Oh, excuse me -- *art* by mentally enlightened BARTicipants. Apologies.
BTW, we can officially kill the thread if someone blames Ronald Reagan for closing all the loony bins.
Badger, Bob's only slightly to the right of Attilla the Hun..........
Just sayin'.....
<BTW, we can officially kill the thread if someone blames Ronald Reagan for closing all the loony bins. >
Okay, thread's dead then.
Maybe it's actually a good idea to care for mentally disturbed people so they won't be a danger to themselves and others, ya think?
At Burning Man, someone who is obviously not able to control their actions is sent home - or at least out of BRC. Kind of passing the buck, there. The buck stops on BART, apparently.
Well, you know mental illness is scary, and a violent responce is the best choice of reacting to fear.
Seems the joke has been lost on you.
Ever heard of Godwin?
<< when glenn and folks like him call folks "white hippie", what they really mean is "race traitor". ??
OH, yes. Before "white hippie", it was "peace creeps" (a favorite epithet of George Lincoln Rockwell, the lump of shit who founded the American Nazi Party in the 1960s) and before that it was "beatnik," "Okie" and "bum" before descending into epithets like "mick" and "peckerwood" (to cite two dumbass insults hurled at myself) meant to distinguish the Doubtfully White from Real Americans like Glenn. Loki's right about how today's Nazis deploy the term.
The thing is, he's convinced every last one of us is choked with guilt over being just like him and he finds that offensive. To such people (along with too many others in this world), EVERYTHING is race, just like their dear old Uncle Adolf told them- "Everything that's not race is trash."
I've tried to explain people like Glenn to non-Americans and most are completely mystified as to how such specimens can even exist.
"At Burning Man, someone who is obviously not able to control their actions is sent home - or at least out of BRC. "
You've obviously never been to my camp around mid-week. Even I got nervous, but we never considered sending anyone home, we just made sure they were well fed and kept them away form sharp objects.
:+}
Glad to know people like you ride the BART every day, looking for trouble. So reassuring.
Heard of him. Don't know what his significance is.
<<Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 >>
His name gets waved around like a magic charm on the Internet whenever TV-educated Americans show any sign of remembering the 20th Century.
**pulls back his fishing pole, having caught one Rockstar and one Crypto Fishey......**
Guys, I know what Godwin's Law is. I was playing straight man in an Abbott/Costello team of Badger and Rhino. You know, the pair that originally did "Who's on first?" in comedy?
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm surprised you buhrnurz aren't planning on commemorating Oscar Grant this New Year's Eve.
Well, Bob, it might not fit YOUR definition, but I'm watching and participating in a city-wide effort to restrict the use of tasers here. What scares me is this:
www.taser.com/products/la...kwaveLE.aspx
The 'Shockwave' is a threat device for 'crowd control'. In a military use, I could perhaps see it. In the hands of law enforcement it becomes a weapon for compliance 'or else'. What happens in a nonviolent protest when these are used on a crowd and people DIE? Non singly, but in multiples?
I'm surprised you haven't spoken up before now. I was expecting your counsel in some manner or another.
