This year I was organizing dream interpretation groups for Pepe Ozan's Dreamer sculpture. We also had a yurt near 3 and Esplanade for overflow groups. We found it impossible to hold groups in camp due to the incessant thumping from 2 nearby dance camps. Some of our group (including me) had to camp elsewhere in order to sleep.
This problem was markedly worse this year as theme camps extended back into the city. If a theme camp included amplified dance music, that stuff was blasted directly at other camps (where many including myself sleep in tents).
There must be something done about the all night rave electronica camps. Around 5am I would wake to hear at least 5 nearby camps with their amps up full blast. It is THE thing that has most dishardened me about Burning Man over the years. I don't think much of the monotonous mechanical house/techno stuff, but even if I loved it I wouldn't want to hear it every morning at 4 or 5 in the morning. Any comments?
many people like them, and many people contribute to some amazing setups in those camps. bm is loud all the time all over the place... i hear things driving by all night that could be construed as too loud... thats just part of it for me. i would think that making them all be positioned to point away from camps and into the playa would be the best thing... which honestly they all "seemed" to be doing from what i could tell. how were they pointing at other camps? i can definately see this being unfair.
Music is not art. Keep it at home.
The only real art is sculptures and costumes.
so glad the resident expert on what is or is not art spoke up, i was worried.
ps, my first burn in 1998, I remember sleeping in my truck, only to be awaken in the middle of the night by a camp of Israeli's blasting Gabber on a 5,000 watt sound system at around 3am.
I jumped out of my truck, and hit the ground running, thinking we were under attack. Didn't back to sleep until around 5am because of the noise.
I really don't like gabber music. But i don't like alot of art on the playa that I see. But this memory has become a fond memory of my first burn.
feed all of your senses not just sight... music is art dance is art...
Please say you were joking... wow
I hope Aaron here stays home next year... There are way too many pretentious Douchebags on the playa defining what art is...
As for The "Rave Camps" as you people love to call them to make yourself sound better than the people that actually show up to these camps. Dancing with the masses is some of the best parts of Burning Man. Hundreds of people converge on the camps to dance have fun and you might not believe it, but they actually meet people there... Who'd have thought that dance music could bring burners together to meet and enjoy each others company? These camps put of great shows to bring smiles to everyone looking for it. If you don't like the music leave the camp. More often than not I had to search for my kind of music which made it better when I actually found it. Not all electronic music is trance not all sound camps play trance... Get over yourself and stay away from the parts of the burn you don't like. You do not have the right to enjoy every little thing that goes on on the playa. Deal with it or stay the fuck home... Just quit bitching about it already...
"Here we go again"
LMAO!!!!
Geesh...... first I thought all the bitching was cuz people were anxious to get to the playa....
now I see that I was wrong....
they just want to bitch....
ya all crack me up.... sounds like a bad case of the 3 bears...
this porridge is too hot.... this porridge is too cold.....
how many of ya had your porridge just right....
I DID!!! I sure hope theres a few others.......
Bare
We have thought of a solution for whining neighbors who complain about the noise even though we do not play after 3 am...
Put up a sign saying that the camp is loud, and they should move near kidsville if they prefer silence or put up with it.
As for an ignorant statement like "Music is not Art", don't waste our time...go to Market Street in SF with a placard and stand next to the dude opposite the SF shopping center who scorns sex before marriage, etc. so the two of you can have intelligent conversations (for those who know what I'm talking about)...lol
As the organizer of the Opulent Temple, at 2:00 and Esplanade this year, may I say- long live loud 'rave' camps!
I say if you dont want to hear the party DON'T CAMP IN THE MIDDLE OF IT !!!!!! radical self reliance doesnt just stop at food and water it includes ear plugs if your wanting to sleep while camped within 3 blocks of the Esplanade
Not a complaint, but a question, was Opulent Temple and camps near it louder later in the week? I could barely hear them through my earplugs until Thursday night, then the earplugs barely seemed to dim the sound... I outsmarted them by staying up until dawn and collapsing into a coma instead of going to sleep.
The rave camps were much more tolerable then the death punk garbage metal band that played from 3am to 6am one morning, the dueling trumpets at dawn, or the dawn "wake up" bullhorns. The 3am death metal punk garbage band was so absurdly rude that later our camp thought they were cute and brought them vodka. We wanted to go over and say "You are sooo cute. Do something punk! Come on, do something punk!"
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 2:41 PM
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Steve,
I completely respect your opinion however....I just don't think that BRC is the place to expect a quiet atmosphere. There was loudness of all varieties...not just the "rave" camps. Isn't the purpose of it all to allow each and every one to self expression? Maybe a good thing to pack next time would be earplugs.....or.....camp away from the dance venues.....or try joining in and dancing....it's really fun and good exercize. Peace to you sir.
Jack
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 2:46 PM
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Syd,
The Opulent Temple was one of my favorite installations. Thank you so much.
Jack
p.s. I personally thought it wasn't loud enough.....I wanted to hear it in my tent!!!
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 2:50 PM
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Yes, thank you 1,000 times.
Tiesto was plenty loud but I have to ask, what was up during Oakenfold's set?
I could barely hear it and I was right in the middle of the space.
Well at least there is a constant in and out of BRC.
Whiners
I slept on the Esplanade and 4:30, it was loud as hell, and guess what I thought it would be.
I want to start a coalation to ban all coalitions.
Loud Music, bright lights, what next no nudity?
Maybe if you dislike loud music you should not camp on the Esplanade, or better yet maybe you should start a quiet camp, and make a quiet zone,
or better yet do anything, just stop whining...
Life is Art. Every breath, a "line" "drawn" in history. Find your "artistic style" and "draw" your "lines" in accordance!!
Sound is a sacred code humans have unlocked with music.
The ability to manipulate sound to induce thought, emotion, awareness of personal vibration, etc. is most definitely Art!!
My opinion is this: The technology of these sound systems have surpassed the size of the city. A consideration for those who are displeased with the bleeding over of sound into thier intallations and camps, I feel, should be respectively considered. The outer rim of the city could house the sound, aimed out into the open desert. This might make a difference. Again, awareness and respect, I feel, are very important aspects of, not only B-man, but everyday existence. We can work together on this. I love stomping my tribal, warrior ass all in the dust to bumpin' break beats, AND I love quiet Yoga at sunrise. Motion creates balance, stillness generates stagnation.
New CHALLENGES arise. Do we arise to meet them, or just keep bitching about our own selfish "motion sickness"?!
Respect.
PUMA
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 3:08 PM
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people who camp near 10 and 2 know hwat they're getting into, so let them be sound absorbers for everyone else. Put the rave camps at the outer circle around 9 and 3, and the only place sound will be going is towards the outside of the city.
Or...
Put the rave camps at 6, and let the quiet old fogeys live at the 10 and 2 suburbs. Just like a real city. If the rave camps are at 6, there is 8000 feet between them and the 12 o'clock trash fence. Chill art on the playa can be way out there.
I have no problem with the rave scene.
But Prophei, could you explain in 30 words or less...
how can a rave camp that can be heard for 1500 feet in every direction
be an inferior experience to one that can be heard for 2 miles?
The best experiences come from diverse sensations. That includes a wide variety of quiet and loud. Think how lifeless an over compressed mix is, even when you crank it...
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 3:11 PM
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Pushing play on somebody elses record and turning it way the fuck up is not art.
Spinning, scratching mashig, playing live that's all art.
But playing music so loud that is competes with other peoples music...
isn't that like painting on somebody elses canvas, or projecting on somebody else's screen.
By the way, I hope you all know that Aaron was being sarcastic about his art definitions. He's one of the biggest weird music lovers out there.
Someone call a whaaa-bulance. I'll play my little violin.
I myself was concerened about rave noise, so, I CAMPED FAR AWAY.
Sorry for yelling, thought you may have surffered hearing damage.
"Not a complaint, but a question, was Opulent Temple and camps near it louder later in the week? I could barely hear them through my earplugs until Thursday night, then the earplugs barely seemed to dim the sound..."
I noticed this too. Tuesday late evening I visited a sound installation at 12:00 & trashfence, it was a quiet and lovely break. I returned Friday evening, and the thumps from soundsystems reached the trash fence this time creating a different experience there... this is also not a complaint, just a comment that that there was almost nowhere within the trashfence that I ran across where soundsystems didn't reach once the weekend started... I'm glad I was there for the full week to experience both.
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 3:37 PM
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Yup...head towards kidsville...that's where it's quiet. it's fantastic!
"Dancing with the masses is some of the best parts of Burning Man."
Many of these camps have only a small handful dancing. Some have none dancing
"If you don't like the music leave the camp."
Amped up music at Burning Man is NOT like an ugly sculpture that you can just look away from (especially at night). Why do people always feel that because THEY like the music, everyone else must be enjoying too?
"Deal with it or stay the fuck home."
Listen, I was involved with the Cacophony Society and the very first Black Rock Burning Man in 1990. I find that attitudes like the above quote show a profound lack of respect for others. From many I've talked to about this issue, there is general dislike of the encroachment of rave "culture" on the event. It tends to homogenize the nighttime scene.
"Sound is a sacred code humans have unlocked with music.
The ability to manipulate sound to induce thought, emotion, awareness of personal vibration, etc. is most definitely Art!! "
Fine, I know a bit about music too. But unlike the visuals at Burning Man, sound travels far and wide. What if I decided to do a performance piece in your tent at 4 in the morning regardless of whether you wanted me there. You might get a little pissed I'd say.
"Dancing with the masses is some of the best parts of Burning Man."
Many of these camps have only a small handful dancing. Some have none dancing
"If you don't like the music leave the camp."
Amped up music at Burning Man is NOT like an ugly sculpture that you can just look away from (especially at night). Why do people always feel that because THEY like the music, everyone else must be enjoying too?
"Deal with it or stay the fuck home."
Listen, I was involved with the Cacophony Society and the very first Black Rock Burning Man in 1990. I find that attitudes like the above quote show a profound lack of respect for others. From many I've talked to about this issue, there is general dislike of the encroachment of rave "culture" on the event. It tends to homogenize the nighttime scene.
"Sound is a sacred code humans have unlocked with music.
The ability to manipulate sound to induce thought, emotion, awareness of personal vibration, etc. is most definitely Art!! "
Fine, I know a bit about music too. But unlike the visuals at Burning Man, sound travels far and wide. What if I decided to do a performance piece in your tent at 4 in the morning regardless of whether you wanted me there. You might get a little pissed I'd say.
From what I hear, Oakenfold sucked so bad, that everyone went next door to hear local F&F dj Forest Green play. Glad to hear that people learned that just because a dj has a big name, does not make him talented, and that some of the best talent in the world comes from within our own community.
Go Forest!
"Many of these camps have only a small handful dancing. Some have none dancing"
Who the hell cares. If its fun for one its fun for one. Who the hell are you to say shut it down or find more people, the fucking Emperor of Ice Cream? Thats crazy talk.
"Amped up music at Burning Man is NOT like an ugly sculpture that you can just look away from (especially at night). Why do people always feel that because THEY like the music, everyone else must be enjoying too? "
I think you missed the memo. THEY DONT CARE IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, and they should not have to. BM is not top 40 radio.
"
Listen, I was involved with the Cacophony Society and the very first Black Rock Burning Man in 1990. I find that attitudes like the above quote show a profound lack of respect for others. From many I've talked to about this issue, there is general dislike of the encroachment of rave "culture" on the event. It tends to homogenize the nighttime scene."
BLA BLA BLA im so old skool' and bla bla.... Hey No one care where you came from "In This Context ". Take action for your self and do not impose your will on others. Its a nasty side of us humans. YOu can choose to camp in a quiet area or you can choos to buy good ear plugs. You do notget to choose what others are doing. GET IT?
"Fine, I know a bit about music too. But unlike the visuals at Burning Man, sound travels far and wide. What if I decided to do a performance piece in your tent at 4 in the morning regardless of whether you wanted me there. You might get a little pissed I'd say. "
Get in my tent fool and I will crack your skull. Stand outside my tent and do a performance piece loud as you like and I will laugh and put in my 100$ earplugs that WILL drown you out. See the difference? THAT IS SELF RELIENCE. Look it up.
Music is part of BurningMan. People like loud music. Be self relient and buy good ear plugs and solve YOUR problem. (and it is your problem).
>>Re: Rave camps too loud
"Dancing with the masses is some of the best parts of Burning Man."
Many of these camps have only a small handful dancing. Some have none dancing
"If you don't like the music leave the camp."
Amped up music at Burning Man is NOT like an ugly sculpture that you can just look away from (especially at night). Why do people always feel that because THEY like the music, everyone else must be enjoying too?
"Deal with it or stay the fuck home."
Listen, I was involved with the Cacophony Society and the very first Black Rock Burning Man in 1990. I find that attitudes like the above quote show a profound lack of respect for others. From many I've talked to about this issue, there is general dislike of the encroachment of rave "culture" on the event. It tends to homogenize the nighttime scene.
"Sound is a sacred code humans have unlocked with music.
The ability to manipulate sound to induce thought, emotion, awareness of personal vibration, etc. is most definitely Art!! "
Fine, I know a bit about music too. But unlike the visuals at Burning Man, sound travels far and wide. What if I decided to do a performance piece in your tent at 4 in the morning regardless of whether you wanted me there. You might get a little pissed I'd say. >>
A post so nice you posted twice. :/
"BLA BLA BLA im so old skool' and bla bla.... Hey No one care where you came from "In This Context ". Take action for your self and do not impose your will on others."
Many artists have poured their heart and soul into this festival over the years to make it what it is; I believe that counts for something. For many years ravers could not camp in Black Rock City; the rave camps were sometimes several miles away and had to be driven to. After the horrible vehicle accidents of 1996, cars were not allowed to roam freely and the rave camps were allowed into the city.
To me, a particular kind of loud music turned up at 4 in the morning IS imposing will on others. Now if your wealthy enough to afford an RV or $100 ear plugs you can escape it but what about those less well off?
I'm not saying get rid of loud music but instead regulate it to certain areas. My camp at 3 and Amnesia was officially not in a loud zone but had a 24/7 dance camp right across the street. Once a theme camp is placed it isn't easy to just move to a quieter area.
"This year I was organizing dream interpretation groups for Pepe Ozan's Dreamer sculpture."
We had trouble with Pepe's group in 2000. They complained about our camp's music (we where next to them) and yet they had a louder system. They felt that when they wanted quiet, it should be quiet and when they wanted music/ie energy they could play loud. But we should not play unlessthey where playing.
People like that need to grow up and or get a grip. Life is not about what YOU want all the time.
WAKE UP!
Whether you like it or not...electronica is the music of Burning Man. It's an integral part of the experience in my opinion and I would fight any motion to change it.
The big sound camps get virtually no funding from BM, and put out $30K - 40K in funds to bring excellent parties and an incredible vitality to Burning Man. The effort that these camps in particular put out is something to be respected.
Strangely enough, I found that camped out on the very last street, at 7:30... There was plenty of silence. I didnt even need the earplugs I brought...
I made several treks out into the deep playa to commune with the stars and the imminent new moon. The experience would've been enhanced by silence. It seems there is no place in Black Rock City to escape into soundless serenity.
I am not opposed to large scale sound art as the raves are a part of Burning Man culture (though I generally don't care to participate). But I think we should consider re-zoning so we can have a clear and empty sound space on the playa.
Somebody above suggested 6:00 as an alternative location. Not a bad idea. How about 6:00 on the backside of Center Camp, with the amplified music blasting out toward the gate? I am sure that I'd be much more receptive to feeling that blast while passing through the Greeters' station, it would definitely heighten the excitement upon arrival in Black Rock City.
there is plenty of space toward the railroad tracks where it's pretty darn quiet all the time. if you put sound camps at 6 oclock, you'll be able to hear them in Gerlach which is probably not desirable.
"Many artists have poured their heart and soul into this festival over the years to make it what it is; I believe that counts for something."
It counts for a great deal my friend but not in THIS context. YOu are old skool. Sweet, so am I but that is not relivent to this talk IMO.
" For many years ravers could not camp in Black Rock City; the rave camps were sometimes several miles away and had to be driven to. After the horrible vehicle accidents of 1996, cars were not allowed to roam freely and the rave camps were allowed into the city."
I remember and I shudder when people suggest we "Re zone" as that KILLED people the lasttime it was tried.
"To me, a particular kind of loud music turned up at 4 in the morning IS imposing will on others. Now if your wealthy enough to afford an RV or $100 ear plugs you can escape it but what about those less well off?"
I make 12$ working with at risk youth. I AM less well off. Still sleep is a priority for me. So I have good ear plugs. Those who do not wish to spend can camp in quiet areas. Thereare quiet areas allready you know.
"I'm not saying get rid of loud music but instead regulate it to certain areas. My camp at 3 and Amnesia was officially not in a loud zone but had a 24/7 dance camp right across the street. Once a theme camp is placed it isn't easy to just move to a quieter area."
It is regulated. 300 watts Steve. 300 watts. Thats loud but not too loud for ear plugs. If you think no one is regulating then volenteer to check decible levels with therangers. They would be glad to have you.
Simple
"Whether you like it or not...electronica is the music of Burning Man"
Why,,, because they have the loudest amps? I've been to nearly every burn since 1990 (missed 2004 because of a bum knee) and I've never considered that monotonous computer loop music to have much in common with the artistic imagination on display at the event. I could go into some music criticism here about lack of contrast, no thematic development, no harmonic development, souless squared off 4/4 rhythms, etc, but will hold myself back. The visuals of Burning Man offer incredible contrast and mood shifts completely lacking in electronica. Yes, I know about its "trance inducing" aspect but that doesn't mean it's interesting or creative music.
I really don't think any one style of music should be sanctioned "the music of Burning Man." Diversity is incredibly important to the event.
A community-based solution. Wow. What a novel concept.
Puma has thrown some wisdom into this debate. See, folks, we're all out here trying to live together, not drive out people who have different likes and beliefs. Both sides of this issue have to be considered, and there has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. The large scale sound art camps are here to stay, so Burners have to tolerate them. At the same time these camps should be as respectful to the needs of their fellow Burners as possible.
We're a community. We can do better.
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 8:29 PM
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I was going to say the same thing that when I found myself wandering over at 3 and Fetish it was really quiet. If you choose to live next to construction don't the fuck complain!!!
And I rocked out to Forest Green over at Happy Camp as Okenfold didn't grab me at all. But Forest was dabomb!
No, that would not be desirable, I agree. Are they really that loud, so loud they'd reach Gerlach? Damn.
It's just that every year when I walk out as far as I can to greet the sunrise I always wish the only sound I can hear is the wind.
There have never been any easy solutions to this conundrum. This debate has been going on for years. I'd like the city to tey a new zoning strategy... it's possible we could find a solution that is more agreeable to all parties.
I was camped on 4 o'clock between Bipolar and Catharsis, and there was a camp kitty corner and down a bit that was way too fucking loud. Now, I knew it would be loud at that location and had brought earplugs, but when I can't hear what the person laying next to me is saying, it's too loud. I love the sounds of nighttime BM, and his music was drowning out ALL of it! I went over and asked him to turn it down, which he did, but not much. 20 minutes later I went over and very grumpily told him that he shouldn't have his speakers pointed into the neighborhood (which he did) and that it was simply TOO FUCKING LOUD for where we were. Oh, and there were zero people dancing or anything; it was just him on the turntables, playing away. And he would start his set at around 2:30am. He did turn it off and wasn't a dick about it, but his reasoning that "but it's burning man!" didn't hold any water with me, or my campmates.
Now, if there had been a bunch of people out there having a good time etc., I would've sucked it up. But there's no reason to practice your dj'ing skills at top volume. It was so loud he should've been on the outskirts. And that's not ok.
I DO believe that music is art (duh!) but people need to be more aware of the noise they're making. If you wanna be loud, be on the 2/10 areas. Just because you're a theme camp (and I don't even know if that guy was; if so it wasn't marked) doesn't mean you can be as loud as you want.
Oh, and to the person who was hoping to find a totally silent space even out in deep playa--HA HA HA!! That's a good one!
And if that dj is reading this--sorry I was so grumpy, but I was volunteering early the next day and...thanks for being nice even though I knew you were frustrated.
** SIDEBAR WARNING **
No... electronica is the music of YOUR Burning Man. It's an integral part of YOUR experience. I thought the gist of this whole thread was about not projecting what we want BM to be onto others whose desires vary so widely? I had way more fun watching amateur strippers at Whiskey Whores, checking out live rock bands on Esplanade and interacting with a multi-directional sound project on the open playa that mixed pop, rock, industrial, electronica and hip-hop.
We were placed, against our request, right next to a large dance camp on 2:00. We were bummed, but we sucked it up and created a new experience from it. What's Burning Man doing for you if you don't let it challenge your preconceptions? At one point, after 72 straight hours of thumpa, I nicely asked our neighbor when he might be turning down. He nicely replied, "15 minutes", and shut it off all afternoon. When it came back on at sundown... oh well. It's about working with your community in compromise, and learning to lose control of your environment so that you can truly be changed by it.
So... I would ask you, respectfully, to let go of any notion that "the" music of Burning Man is anything other than what's giving you joy in any particular moment. And stop by for a drink at my decidedly non-electronica theme camp in 2007...
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 8:44 PM
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I agree that the theme camps were too loud for sleeping unless you were really wasted. I actually was part of the Opulent Temple, and it rocked! And I couldn't sleep there, so I slept in a tent with some friends at 5:30 and Fetish. Very quiet. Comfortable. I used my spot in the OT just for dancing and fucking. Great rhythms at OT fer sher!
Another thought after going through this thread...
First of all Aaron did the best job at pointing out how pretentious fucktards (some artists) and assholic whiners (old skoolers) act on the playa with his sarcasm... Burning Man is an ever evolving Machine, and for you old skoolers to lump all electro music in the category of 'Rave' is ridiculous. It's saying easily that you don't like it and therefore it shouldn't be there, or at least not in your ear shot. Segregation! That's right! "I remember a time when the Rave camps were miles away and it was great." Get over it. You are bitching and complaining about your experience at BM not being as great as it could be because you chose to let something get you down. You know I hate ravers and glowsticks, and retarded hippie love. Do I let that bring me down? No, why? Because I know that this place isn't molded around my tastes. So quit bitching or stay home.
Fri, September 9, 2005 - 8:27 AM
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hey, I really found parts of this thread alarming. it seemed to me that people got nasty unto the point of abuse, and I haven't heard such reactivity about being asked to turn the sound down since my mother told me to turn the radio down in 1987. Wtf? It's a reasonable conversation. Some people want to be able to wander out and just hear the wind blow. Last year I camped with a rave camp. You could literally feel the ground moving until about 6 am every day, and I'm sure nobody in any proximity to us would have done that well with earplugs. Our sound system laughed at ear plugs.
A friend looking for a quiet place to crash camped in hushville and said it really wasn't all that quiet, b/c they had loud neighbors -- how odd to place hushville across the street from loudsters.
It can be really harmful to the body and mind to go a week without sleep, especially in conjunction with all the other tough-on-the-body elements that are necessarily part of the scene, not to mention the chemical elements we choose to introduce into our bodies out there. Sleep is almost the only restorative thing we could possibly do for our bodies on the Playa -- and those who want to be able to sleep or just have a the sensual experience of alternating between loud and quiet should be able to. They should at least be able to express the desire for that without being attacked. Those who want lots and lots of noise should be able to have that experience, too. There's no need to be abusive in a dialog about this.
" Music is not art. Keep it at home.
The only real art is sculptures and costumes."
You are kidding right?
I jsut think that if we don't control the live chicken population at burningman-- well man, it's over. OVER.
""Deal with it or stay the fuck home."
Listen, I was involved with the Cacophony Society and the very first Black Rock Burning Man in 1990. I find that attitudes like the above quote show a profound lack of respect for others."
THANK YOU!!!
Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that BM is about skull fucking each other for fun... I don't know where or when that came up...
" Whether you like it or not...electronica is the music of Burning Man."
UM WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
I like them well enough... but BM is about all kinds of diversity... there is no fucking 'official form' there inspite of the raver armies and their fuzzy uniforms....
where exactly do you get off?
(and this is coming form someone who likes a rave now and then)
Many a DJ does suffer rom a very very inflated ego..specially the ones wiht empty camps who still insist on foisting their thang on everyone within a two mile radius...
dig-- if your dome is empty - your dance floor still- the tribes have spoken -YOU SUCK- take your lumps and turn it down a bit.
Thanks Chanita-- sorry about the "you suck' comment...
What's up with all the self righteous aggro people?
my 2 cents...
1) when you say "camp somewhere else", those of us with theme camps get placed by the BMorg. We do not have a choice of where to camp. If we get put next to a loud camp, then that's where we'll be all week, like it or not.
2) 300 watts is the limit, but I know for a fact that camps go over that limit. I have seen their equipment. I have asked them how much power they are running. They have told me with pride how they are over the 300 Watt limit. That rule is not enforced (as far as I have seen), so don't even bring it up.
3) Good earplugs help somewhat, but much of the sound doesn't enter through the ears. I wear good earplugs, and even muffs over sometimes, but I can still feel the beat . I still sleep just fine though, even in the 3:00 Plaza. :)
4) My sound complaint (which I have stated elsewhere) is about the issue of respect. Yes BRC is a noisy place, and yes most of us are at least used to it, if not just fine with it. But when art cars with big amps show up at the temple, or some other "quiet" venue (I know, its BM, why should we expect there to be any quiet venues? :), without seeing what the vibe is (generally pretty contemplative at a place like the temple) it does show a general lack of respect and an imposition of ones expression on many others. (this is just one example of course)
I would like to reiterate that sound travels far and wide (much like smoke). 100 yards from the temple we can hear your music, but 100 yards from the temple you can't hear me weeping, or grieving, or smiling, or kissing. People's actions there do not impose outside the immediate area. Most of the times I was at the temple, people turned their sound off as they approached - they got that there's a time and a place - and they too wanted to enter and let the temple, and everyone's messages, fill their senses. But a few came driving up, sound on full tilt, took a look, didn't see anything that interested them, and eventually drove away. We all have the right to express ourselves, but I wish rudeness wasn't considered a valid form of expression (but that's just me)
Do we need another rule? Hell no. Do we need to respect each other (since we need to live together for a week), and think about where we do what? Hell yes. Do I think it will happen?
No.
Oakenfaux was really really bad. His name drew a crowd. His music emptied the floor.
i went to burning man and heard too much music and didn't get enough sleep!!! people were having way too much fun....!!! that's it...i'm never going again....
lol
peace
james
#dig-- if your dome is empty - your dance floor still- the tribes have spoken -YOU SUCK- take your lumps and turn it down a bit.#
do you know how many times we had an empty dancefloor for maybe half an hour only to be followed by a full dancefloor for the next hour, then an empty dancefloor again, then again it would fill up?
unless you're a mega-rave on or near the corners, you will get major flux of people coming and going. this is burning man. the music stays on.
Fri, September 9, 2005 - 9:29 AM
by
Unsubsc...
ah, yes, interesting word. do people say this? I'm returning to my home under a large rock now..
p.s. maybe it's playa withdrawal. or maybe they're cranky from lack of sleep...
Actually no, All this crap about being able to hear sound in gerlach is just plain B.S.
We brought a 15k (fucking loud) sound system this year.. i walked and walked out past it. and could not hear it or anything else way before i reached the permiter fence.
Yes sound carries in the desert but honestly after a mile or two.. silence.. Without the water on the playa (maybee like 1500 years ago) there is nothing to amplify it.
Your best bet it to camp within the city core, basically 2 or more blocks back from the esplanade. and make sure that you have neighbors that dont like sound either.. This is YOUR resposability as a burner..
wouldt it be great if there was an entry on the placement form that said "Keep me the fuck away from sound systems" then all these people could be lumped togethor into a collective unit of folks that can all sleep all night.. hurrah.
"But when art cars with big amps show up at the temple, or some other "quiet" venue (I know, its BM, why should we expect there to be any quiet venues? :), "
Some events are scheduled. One camp put on "Temple Of Breaks" Wednesday night. This was posted in the what where when I believe, but I knew about it from the burning man website well in advance to my arrival to the playa. I do believe that is very respectful to all who go. It was a pre planned event with plenty of warning in this case it was avoidable.
All I want to know is:
Who was the guy playing super dope house music out of his little tent in between two big domes on 10 o'clock?? That guy was my savior amongst the sea of trance and break beats (also, mad love to The Deep End, you guys rocked it).
As far as loud music goes:
I think you know what you're getting into when you pick where you are going to camp. Also, even the cheap earplugs help, you don’t need to spend $100 on them. We camped across from The Deep End this year. I have to say that they were non-obtrusive and respectful (they are mostly a daytime camp that plays house music … loud of course and they get it going in the morning), it seemed like they kept the music lower until noon or so and then they bumped it. It was like an alarm clock. Saturday they went all night. It only woke me up a few times, but it was the burn night... everyone “rocks it” on burn night. I’m also biased because I enjoy the music they were play, but that’s why we chose to camp near them in the first place. We knew full well what we were getting into. My cheapo earplugs helped a lot. Get over it people, BM is chaos and chaos is loud. I'm sorry that you weren't able to enjoy this year as much as you had anticipated. My advice, make changes to yourself and/or your camp’s location, pay attention to the map and the theme camp placement. Remember, there’s always next year to do it better and have better experiences.
I'm not expecting Burning Man to be quiet but the new city plan this year which put theme camps further back into the outer areas didn't take into account that some of these camps had dance volume sound systems. Since there was no open playa to aim speakers at, they were aimed at other camps. What I'm recommending is that dance camps stay on the Esplanade; is that too much to ask?
For those who say that Burning Man was always noisy at five in the morning were not at the early events.
>>>Some events are scheduled. One camp put on "Temple Of Breaks" Wednesday night.<<<
Oh, absolutely!!! That has nothing to do with disrespectfullness. That's a planned event. I actually tried to make it out there to it, but playa time was against me.
I'm really referring to what some have labeled "yahoos" going out making tons of noise, showing up at the temple (where a lot of us were bawling our eyes out) and not even bothering to get a feel for what was going on. And it's something that happens all week out there.
"I'm not expecting Burning Man to be quiet but the new city plan this year which put theme camps further back into the outer areas didn't take into account that some of these camps had dance volume sound systems. Since there was no open playa to aim speakers at, they were aimed at other camps. What I'm recommending is that dance camps stay on the Esplanade; is that too much to ask?"
It's not too much to ask at all, but, is it too much to ask you to do some research before choosing where to set up camp? You are right, I have only attended BM since 2000, for me it has gotten a lot bigger but it's always been pretty loud. Since you've been a participant for so many years I'm sure you'd agree that BM is an evolving festival every year is different, constantly changing. At least that's my observation. Most likely the only way it's going to go back to the way you remember, is if you start your own festival or attend some of the other regionals which are just starting up. Maybe it's gotten too big for you? With ear plugs I can usually get through the night/early morning just fine. It's only the loud noises between 7am-10am that annoy me the most, but I just deal with it. If you are upset with the theme camp placement, then you should take that up with BMorg, I'd advise to get a lot of followers though because I think most people were happy/excited about the new theme camp placement for this year.
I HATE TECHNO/TRANCE...
With that said if they were gone I'd miss 'em. When I'm up at sunrise stompin the playa, and i hear the Thumpa Thumpa it makes me feel good that there is still some people like me who are still trying to tear this city down. Not every moment can be your moment.. let some others have thiers
I'm with you. Hate it. But sometimes when I get to work in the morning, someone driving past will be cranking some dum, dum, dum, dum techno music and I'll close my eyes and think of the playa. Makes me smile.
I camp in and around Center Camp every year. I wear earplugs, I usually sleep fine. As I said above, the only reason the location of the rave camps bugs me is because I'd like a little silence when I'm wandering out in deep playa looking at the sky or the various art objects. I think a silent empty quarter out there would be nice, that's all. Probably won't happen, I don't see the Org rezoning in the near future, I'm just sayin'...
I love electronic music, but I love other music too, and sometimes silence. Why does this have to get so ugly? I think people would be happier if there was space for more aural diversity. Maybe if there were moments of no thumpa thumpa, it would be more appreciated when the amps get turned up and we can all tune in to a united, epiphinal dance experience. In the meantime why not find other ways to get our grooves on. Gooferville had some great afrobeat, reggae, and butt shaking funk, but seemed to be washed out by bigger systems most of the time. Y'know, so it gets to be like whoever can afford the biggest amps gets a monopoly on the soundscape. That don't seem right.
Fri, September 9, 2005 - 12:21 PM
by
Unsubsc...
I have no complaints about the music being loud (slept in an RV this year...nice) but my first thought of the new city layout was..."Uh oh, there goes the neighborhood."
We have to agree that not everybody is going to like the same art, the same music, the same food...etc, etc. So, maybe the 2:00, 10:00 & Esplanade plan for loud dancy-dance camps is best.
I thought that was the plan. BM has made it very clear all over the place. Large sclae sound can only exist at 10 and 2 with speakers pointing towards the open playa. Anything lese should not be over 300 watts. Of course, people disrespect or ignore the rules. It seems the system is in place, but it's not enforced enough....
Jsut as a thought experiment -- please close oyu eyes...well read this first then cose your eyes...
All the dance dome sound systems suddenly are taken over by the BLUEGRASS ARMY with back up from the UILLEAN PIPE BRIGADE -- and that dominated your entire experience for the week....
(Im saying this as someone who loves the woomp wooomp wooomp)
Fri, September 9, 2005 - 12:39 PM
by
Unsubsc...
Psytrance and electronica camps are a very important part of my experience at Burning Man. I never expected to get a good night sleep there and I am not sure why you did. This "amplified electronica music" has changed my life and I purposely look for these camps at BM even if they are far from where I am camping. Please keep in mind that these experiences are just as valuable for some people as your dream interpretation groups are for you. Try to chose a different location for you camp next time.
"I'm really referring to what some have labeled "yahoos" going out making tons of noise, showing up at the temple (where a lot of us were bawling our eyes out) and not even bothering to get a feel for what was going on. And it's something that happens all week out there. "
I do agree with you there. I try to make it to the temple when the least amount of people that tend to piss me off will be there. I had some ass come up and disturb the sunrise at David Best mobile temple with loud disco house attached to a bike. Luckily our faces that glared a not so delightful look told him to scram and he abided.
I love the mobile sound cars on the playa it brings a different feel to the experience. I'm all for a good system with *good music* going out to one of the big installations to party all night. I just like the respect that some camps did by letting everyone know what they were doing ahead of time.
Hi steve-
did you go and talk to those said camps & ask them to turn down their music? Did you ask a ranger to see if they were in compliance with sound guidelines of 300w or less in the city? Have you considered camping in shushville?
If you didn't or haven't done 1 or all 3 of these things- is this really the place to be discussing?
quite honestly 3 & esplanade sounds like a noisy address- how can you really expect quiet in this area? No wonder you were dissappointed. Camp in the quiet part of town next year and be happy- nobody's stopping you from doing that.
"Who was the guy playing super dope house music out of his little tent in between two big domes on 10 o'clock?? "
The Camp was Green Gorilla Lounge. They kicked ass until sunday morning... Sunday morings Dj's had some of the best house I heard out there all week. Sadly he crashed every mix he attempted.
"Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that BM is about skull fucking each other for fun... I don't know where or when that came up... "
Some people seem to have forgotten is not all rainbows and hugs...
You can't have a positive without a negative
I think having large sound systems in the MIDDLE of the city is not that cool. They're totally fine out at 10 oclock facing the open playa, though. imo.
but it really gets ugly when people turn their speakers towards your camp in an attempt to lure away your crowd. which causes you to turn the volume up or turn your speakers at them. and so on. there should be stricter guidelines/enforcement of the rules after Monday/Tuesday when everybody arrives and the wars begin.
As many have expressed their hatred or love for techno/electronica, I only wanted to point out, that in my opinion, 'electronica' seems to be the most widely played music on the playa. I base this statement strictly on my own experiences and perhaps others may gainsay me, but I stand by my opinion.
Ever since the sound camps were allowed to be on the Esplanade, they have seemed to grow in size each year. Perhaps it is the fact that a lot of people like them, and they provide a much needed form of expression - dance. Anyone who says that dance and music are not forms of art might need to have their head checked.
Even though I love 'electronica' I camp way out in the back, purposely to have silence while I sleep. I would suggest anyone having problems with the noise try camping a bit further back...its actually very quiet out there.
And even so, camps around us decided to fire up their generators, at all hours of the night. Did we complain? NO...Because to me, learning to tolerate things you may not like is all part of the Burning Man experience. In my mind any music a person wants to play is fine by me... I would applaud it and welcome them with open arms.
you guys are nuts...if you think its too loud, camp in Hushville...
the music this year was better than ever. The dancing this year was better than ever....Burning Man is a great party as well as a spiritual experience. What would Burning Man be like if it was quiet everywhere? You would have no idea what was going on at night, except for following the Blinkie lights.
Burning Man isnt a library. If its too loud take precautions, camp somewhere else or dont go.
What I hate is. (and I saw this more than a couple of times on the playa this year). Is when some rave camp is thumping full tilt blast and there art between 5 to 1 persons actually dancing. It is just inconsiderate in the big picture. Thousands of folks are forced to listen for the sake of a few. If your music is not drawing a big crowd there is absolutly no reason to have it so fucking loud. I don't think turning down the music would effect the vibe (if five deaf dancers can constitute a vibe) I hate to generalize but the raver kids seem more interested in getting fucked up than participating and interacting with the art and the rest of the community. It is an art festival not a rave. I understand they are part of the buring man community but they often leave their areas trashed and do not think about the well being of the community around them. just a little common sense and consideration is needed please. If we went and blasted classical music or some botty bass hip hop louder than the ravers systems I am sure they would cry foul. And I don't understand why they think loud means the music is good.
" 'electronica' seems to be the most widely played music on the playa."
"Perhaps it is the fact that a lot of people like them, and they provide a much needed form of expression - dance. "
This "electronica" music is easily the crudest form of dance music I've ever heard. There are many other kinds of dance music out there, and much more inspiring. And what about live flesh-and-blood human musicians -- not DJs but real musicians who actually know how to play instruments? I fondly remember hearing a band called Idiot Flesh at the 96 burn and it changed my conception of rock with their intricate and constantly surprising music. These days it's a rare thing to hear any interesting music at BM. Perhaps just as art cars have to go through a review process before they are allowed to prowl the playa, a sound camp must demonstrate some musical imagination before being let blanket the city with sound.
Steve I'd love to see more Live music on the playa. Do you have any idea how hard it would be to actually have a sound camp dedicated to entertaining for more than one night with all live bands (i'm talking sun down to sun up)? It'd be a nightmare. It'd be great but a nightmare to actually pull it off. I see that you have no respect what so ever for any form of electronica, and you seem to believe that no thought goes into it and it's just a simple way to entertain. So I'm glad you're not in charge or I'd have to find somewhere else to spend my vacation. But you aren't and your opinion isn't that of the entire group so you should maybe take some time to reflect on how You can make Your experience better next year.
"Perhaps just as art cars have to go through a review process before they are allowed to prowl the playa, a sound camp must demonstrate some musical imagination before being let blanket the city with sound."
But I have to ask... Who do you propose will head up this process of weeding out what you think isn't great enough for burning man? And do the 1000's of people that attended these unimaginative dance party's with the crude music get a say?
its hard to judge such a thing. some people like "Crap" a whole lot.
but there are very intricate, intelligent, and unique forms of electronic music out there that don't necessarily have to be "Dance electronica" oriented.
im surprise that there hasn't been more diversity in the sound camps.
Well, I meant that a bit in jest. It just seems that a domed DJ nightclub scene playing standard by-the-yard electronica isn't a very imaginative thing to do at Burning Man. I'd like to think of Burning Man as a place to see and hear things you wouldn't normally encounter. The sonic landscape should be far more avant-garde and experimental than it is.
again buck up folks -- Celine DION camp loud 24/7 -- I survived. I didn't get a fucking tshirt.
The divisive vitriol spewed by some factions of artists and old-timers has really gotten tiresome. The "good old days" may have been quiet, but there was also very little art of any kind, as I've been told several times by Larry, who himself is no fan of dance music but believes in the diversity of this event. It's a big playa, people, with room for both Opulent Temple and Angel of the Apocalypse, the two projects that I worked on this year. And they were each personally fulfilling endeavors that rocked Burning Man in different ways. If there's one thing that Burning Man demands of its participants, it is tolerance: of dust storms, of group dynamics, of people on different trips than you, and of art forms that you may not fully appreciate. So, tweak or enforce the existing rules, or just feel free to harbor grudges against the sound camps (personally, I was more irritated with the Dicky Box than anybody's sound system, but that was just my personal distaste for an ego-trip disguised as art). But don't expect us to turn it down during the one week of the year when we can blast our music into the next day.
I counted way too many times when some group was blasting full tilt and there were only a few folks dancing. It is just rude, inconsiderate to others. Unless you are rocking the throngs of thousands with your music there is no reason to have it so mind bending loud. And why is it that it is always the same type of music showin the least amount of class as far as loudness.
Almost all the time it is the techno-dance rave music folks doing the most damage and auditory pollution. Can someone explain why?
Lorin, Oakendfold and others hightlights of the scene did not have folks covering thier ears as they walked by. Loud is not always mean better.
It is so inconsiderate to the thousands who are in the 2 mile radius of thier system. Many of these folks may not like the music (otherwise theyse camps would have more than 10 folks dancing) Yes you can still hear it in the quite area too. Not that it is supposed to be quiet at BM but there is no way to avoid it at all.
And it is inconsiderate to the other folks who want to participate in the music scene. Many of the newer camps can't compete with the loudness of the sound systems and there is not much they can do about it. I remember a few years back on the esplanade hundreds of us were rocking out to some fantactic funky breakbeat they the camp next door turned on thier system and blasted the fuck out of some really bad techno and thus ended the fun for the crowd. No one even danced to the offending music and the crowd left because of the noise.
Why do these folks think they are so important that folks in Reno need to hear thier sound? If cant even get that many folks at Burning man to listen and dance to thier music.
I love all types of music (and but I avoid the loud techno-raver systems because they fuck up my ears for a few days (w/ earplugs) afterwards.) I would not want to hinder the ability of folks who want to hear other forms of music.
what gives?
I agree with you for the most part. And by bringing out more of what really grabs our attention instead of taking away the things that don’t quite spark the fire is what I am all about. I hate ravers and trance music, but to take that element away from the event would make it come off as even more uppity than it already is. Focus on the good and let go of the shitty parts.
Disco Boy?
You're so clever... Teach me your ways please. I'd like to be clueless too.
\m/ >< \m/
you came to burningman to get a deep restful sleep?
I brought earplugs and nytol.
"OR
Put the rave camps at 6, "
That my friend, will never happen. Because that's were 1st camp is. (First camp being the camp of Larry Harvey and the rest of the LLC of the BMorg). They don't want to hear loud sound either.
If you take a walk around Center Camp, or the outer loop, (The outer Center Camp road), you'll notice that it is a VERY QUIET area.
This year Lotus Wink was close to 1st Camp, but wasn't very loud, and had speakers facing OUT to the playa.
I can't say that about the camps around the 9'Oclock Plaza, or in the area.
If the loud camps were really at 10 O'clock and 2 O'clock, I don't think you'd have much complaining. But that's not what happens.
Indeed--
I came with the best earplugs, an eyemask to keep out the light
and ambien
I dont expect much sleep on the playa but have supplies for a few hours of rest
"wouldt it be great if there was an entry on the placement form that said "Keep me the fuck away from sound systems" then all these people could be lumped togethor into a collective unit of folks that can all sleep all night.. "
Fortunately for those people they already have an area to be in. What is it "quite town,ville or something"? And then of course there is the NO Generator Zone which I thuroughly enjoyed this year.
Wed, September 14, 2005 - 2:36 PM
by
Unsubsc...
> Well, I meant that a bit in jest. It just seems that a domed DJ nightclub scene playing standard by-the-yard electronica isn't a very imaginative thing to do at Burning Man. I'd like to think of Burning Man as a place to see and hear things you wouldn't normally encounter. The sonic landscape should be far more avant-garde and experimental than it is.>
These are disrespectful and offensive comments. It is obvious that you are not very familiar with djing, trance, or electronic music in general. It is a matter of your personal preference and nothing else. I camped with people who played country all day long. I thought it would kill me at first but instead it taught me to respect people with different tastes.
The bottom line is, there will always be people at Burning Man who will be doing something that you can't appreciate. If you can't open up your mind for a week, then simply find a way to avoid those people. If you start weeding out people and camps, Burning Man will no longer be what it is now. Many wonderful people will stop coming to the event if their interests/art/music are classified as undesirable. That goes against radical inclusivity.
"But I have to ask... Who do you propose will head up this process of weeding out what you think isn't great enough for burning man? And do the 1000's of people that attended these unimaginative dance party's with the crude music get a say? "
I will be glad to weed out the marching music for the third world war, oopsie I mean "dance" music.
I remember getting out of my sleeping bag to find the source of the obnoxious noise keeping me awake @ 430am for the third day in a row.
I found a big tent with one DJ and 1 person dancing.
the DJ's performing for the thousands have a clue and have a life.
Asshats like the DJ being rude to hundreds don't have a clue.
I say if you don't have at least 20 or 30 people dancing then you should shut the fuck up and let people have at least 5 hours sleep during the event.
but who am i kiddng? people like the DJ i described are fucking parasites and will never ever understand anything thats not given in a pill.
"atom, i think we should accept people not except them!"
Are you the grammar police?
Chris said: "I found a big tent with one DJ and 1 person dancing. "
did you stay for his whole set. did that one person dance by themselves the whole time or were there more people floating in and out. or did you see a split second and make up your mind?
was the area you in even a rave camp or was it just a camp with a DJ?
personally I prefer smaller dance floors with less people. more room to dance more likely to hear a DJ I have never heard before.
but whatever. wear earplugs and don't expect those around you at BM to be living by your sleep schedule.
later
Taz
"Many of these camps have only a small handful dancing. Some have none dancing"
When's the last time you saw 2,000 people regularly crowded around a single piece of art that wasn't a sound camp? Should we ban certain types of visual art simply because not many people look at it?
I understand this is an important debate, and both sides have very credible arguments. But please, drop the whole 'the dancefloor is empty' thing. How are you expected to fill a dance floor if there's no music playing? People don't crowd around your piece of art before it is displayed, just like people don't start dancing before the music plays.
OK, though I don't have a problem with LSS in general, this twitches my twig. God(Goddess)/Intelligent Design/Evolution has provided us with eyelids to allow us to shut out sights that prevent us from ignoring them. There is no equivalent physical device for ignoring loud, annoying sound. Yes, we can use earplugs, but what about the situation where there is an interesting, sonic art piece nearby (such as a musician)? Yes, LSS is a recognized part of Burning Man, but isn't actual performance also a part? If I don't care for a visual art piece, I don't look at it, and I can look at another piece. With LSS, any other sonic art is essentially impossible to appreciate.
If no one is there to appreciate the (LSS) art, why destroy the chance of someone enjoying the less-intensive sound? Just turning on a tape and walking away from massive speakers just seems rude.
YMMV,
Bartholomew
perhaps give wattage limits based on loc.
it is a community and sound does travel.
there are many ways to keep sound nice and loud and not have it project everywhere, for instance (positioning of speakers) create a smaller axis point or set up some sort of cheap wall system around your dancefloor.
of course this means more supplies...
in all honesty it sounds like an issue that will exist forever but hey, no point in not making suggestions,
"These are disrespectful and offensive comments"
No they are opinions. The disrespecful comments are a little higher up in the thread. I know because I posted some of them. And by no means should you let someone else's opinions about music be offensive.
>>>I'm all for a good system with *good music* going out to one of the big installations to party all night.<<<
Yea, I was out at the Flaming Lotus Girls Phoenix one night sitting around the fuel dump with some friends, and some big sound bus was there, and they were playing really good stuff (whatever it was) and we all loved it. Even the FLGs (who had told me they had worried about big sound things messing up the vibe) I was with thought it was adding to the whole atmosphere.
When it works, it can be awesome.
Get some friggin' earplugs! A simple solution where everyone wins.
I was camped at 9:00 & Bipolar near some pretty loud all night rave camps. Once my earplugs were in, I couldn't even hear my own sleeping bag zip.
My post is not going to help solve The Grand Question of Sound and Silence. Forewarned.
I remember having crawled to the top of our sleeping structure, getting into my sleeping bag, and thinking to myself "that music isn't going to keep me awake, it's going to help me fall asleep." And - totally weirdly enough - it did.
I don't expect that to work for everyone, and am mildly surprised that it worked for me. It was strange and amazing playasleep.
Anyway, I leave it to the rest of ye to haggle over this one. I understand it isn't all about getting sleep, but also so much more. I don't have any good ideas. About this, that is. At least not now.
Thank You Chantia !
A respectful discussion would be a nice start.
Respectful usually means, (IMHO), starting with "You have a valid goal, and I have a valid goal. Now how do we get to both of our goals together".
FYI - As an EL student at Cal Poly, a few of us made up a little device using a magnatron tube from a microwave and a shotgun wave guide. Aimed at any electronic device, and it went instintly to static. (It also had a tendency to fry amps after a couple of minutes). They are "Illegal" to posses. But I guess if folks don't want to have a "Respectful" discussion, it might be the next step in the "War of noise and quiet".
PLEASE, let's go for the Respectful Discussion.
"Hundreds of people converge on the camps to dance have fun and you might not believe it, but they actually meet people there... " more likely ten or twelve when I have looked in.
The prevailing feeling here is that if you don't like it then you get a carfully worded 'fuck you , I had a good time so you are unhip" done in a slightly condecending tone.
Funny thing you don't hear anyone complaining about other types of art in the same way.
Re: Rave camps too loud
Get some friggin' earplugs! A simple solution where everyone wins
I tried them & they didn't work for me
hmmmm, well...
As a member of one of the theme camps with perhaps the largest ( and sweetest if I say so myself) you would think I would say "No, you're wrong. BM is meant to be a place where people can express themselves any way they want- eincluding through music, and volumes that they feel are necessary to express themselves" and in fact, I do say that. Lets get our freak on. however the hell we wanna do it. but, Steve, you are right, too. souond travels. and just as you would not want the party to be in your tent when you are sleeping, the music is part of the party. so not so much fun.
But enough off all that bullshit here is my real opinion.
I tolerated the psytrance camps in the middle of the city aimed right at my tent. but I would rather not have to- it kinda sucked. But who am I to tell someone not to do wht they ame to BM to do. Hell, we did it and our sound system was 10 times their size- but it was also placed at 10 and Esplanade, and aimed out towards open playa- even at stratospheric amperages, the sound did not penetrate the dwelling areas of the city as some of the smaller inner camps did. but keep in mind, Steve, many of these camps are 'rouge' camps- just dudes like you an me trying to be ourselves- with loud sound systems. diplomacy and acceptance are paramount- but raising awareness of things that go bump in the night around town and getting our 'community' involved to understand everyones needs will bring us all happiness in the end, I should hope. Keep up the good word- I'm sure the people who were causing you a lack of sleep and the accociated greif really meant no harm- did you guys?
DC
oh yeah I almost forgot -I have to agree with many of the posts- earplugs and "other" things work well to make it all go away- but I think music/sounds/noises of ALL kinds are like dust- its just everywhere- and whether you like it or not, its gonna be all over you all the time!
Ten or twelve? Over the course of the entire week? I'm thinking in a broader spectrum. Did you happen to make it over to Deep End at all during the day? When a 100+ people were there on a daily basis.
This has nothing to doing with being hip or cool. It's about accepting that the things you don't like are going to be at Burning Man so deal with it or don't come. This event is what you make of it, and if you let something like the music ruin it for you then maybe you should find something else to do...
Thu, September 22, 2005 - 7:06 AM
by
Unsubsc...
One word - EARPLUGS (or is that two - Ear Plugs?)
Wow I'm suprised at all the whiners here... ITS BURNING MAN people. Radical self reliance = ear plugs or camping in quiet zones NOT asking someone else to not participate with their ART/Music. I personally love the CACOPHONY of the playa and all its music and noise. It is so beautiful!!
PEACE to the PEEPS
Read the back of your ticket.
Our camp had the same problem. But we just had to deal cuz... it's B.M.
Someone wrote a story about this issue two years ago:
www.eastbayexpress.com/Issues...ic.html
What really astonishes me about this post is the extreme prejudice I see against rave music and culture.
I agree that as a community, we need to be careful about the needs and desires of the members of that community, and try and plan as well as we can to benefit the diverse needs of the everyone. So maybe DPW didn't have the best idea moving the larger camps inwards into the city, and next year it won't be that way. And we who sleep at night should bring earplugs and strategically plan where we camp, and those who have sound systems should be as considerate as possible. I think we've established that.
(Personally, my sonically-worst moments at BM involved a lot of Top 40 being played on a near-by sound system. Not too creative, true. And I did wish it wasn't there. But I didn't feel like it was my place to tell them anything -- I've worked a lot of night jobs, which means that my sleeping schedule is often quite different from other people's. Not everyone is going to be on the same schedule I am. That's just the way it is... especially at BM).
But that doesn't solve the matter of the disrespect -- even lack of gratitude -- I see towards the rave scene and electronic music. Burning Man owes much of what it is to the rave scene and it's contributions. Big, glowy art installations came from the rave scene (and, yes, it IS because of the prolific use of ecstasy). A lot of BM "fashion" comes from the rave scene. The rave scene also made underground ideas and philosophies accessible to many who would not have had another way in to counterculture. If it weren't so early in the morning, I could probably think of some better examples... though I can recommend a REALLY good book, "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life."
You may not enjoy electronic music, but I think it's disrespectful to ignore the essential role raves play at Burning Man and the role they've had in creating the culture that supports Burning Man being what it is. How many playa-participants (those who make the art, the costumes, the theme camps, even those in DPW) come from the rave scene, or at least have going to a rave as one part of the journey that has brought them to this particular time and place?
And, I think it's disrespectful, arrogant, and damaging to the whole community to accuse an artist of not being an artist or to discourage their efforts of creativity. My brother is an electronic music producer, and I've seen him stay up all night for days trying to get a beat just so. It's a complicated medium to master, as difficult as oil painting or writing a play. If some musicians fall a little short of the mark -- especially beginners -- should we tell them, "Hey, you suck, turn that shit down?" Is that the way we nurture creativity in our community? It seems to me that an atmosphere of creativity nurtures all mediums and skill levels of art, even the types we don't like.
So, one last note about the loudness of the systems in comparison to the amount of people present. To me, the flow of people on a dancefloor or in any one place on the playa is part of a pattern a little too complex and chaotic for me to understand. One moment, there will be a billion people in the cafe, and the next, just a few. But the cafe is always open for people to get coffee, no matter how many people actually show up. And the dance floors are the same way. They're open and waiting for people to dance and have a transformative experience, no matter how many people have flow-ed in at that particular moment. It actually reminds me of a temple or library: the structure is there for you whenever you show up. And if no one is dancing and they turn the music down so that it ISN'T thumping and bumping at a decible level that makes you want to shake your booty, it certainly won't attract MORE people.
Kimric said "more likely ten or twelve when I have looked in."
Standard complaint that always leaves me cold. it's one of the worst ancedotal evidence that I could care less about. does your desire to sleep out weight the DJ desire to play and the 10-12 people who want to dance? if so why? did you stay for any length of time? if they aren't playing how are they supposed to collect people to start dancing? do the numbers vary when you weren't paying attention? were these LSS or camps mixed into the general city?
and then he said "prevailing feeling here is that if you don't like it then you get a carfully worded 'fuck you , I had a good time so you are unhip" done in a slightly condecending tone."
I don't know about the unhip part, I didn't get that feeling, but for me the feeling on both sides comes with a big Fuck You. "Fuck you, Why should I live on your schedule, take a page of radical self-reliance and set your self up to sleep come hell or high water" versus the "fuck you I want to sleep you noisy inconsiderate Etard" neither side really likes even having this debate.
But the truth of this debate is that is very close to a winner take all problem. part one. The LSS can not handle the numbers of people who want to dance and who want to DJ. Part two as a percentage of the city population, there are alot of people awake 24 hr a day on the playa. Part 3 Either the noisy night people shut down so the day time people can sleep, or the daytime quiet people lose sleep so the noisy nightimers can play. one side always ends up feeling like they have lost big time. hence why this debate is so difficult to have civility.
no real point except wanting to point out that both sides carry a big ass chip on their shoulders and tendency to say FU.
later
Taz
Thanks for the " better yet do anything, just stop whining."
This was my first year at BM and I loved every noisy uncomfortable sleep deprived minute of it. Techno, Rave, Electronic Trance... had never been a part of my life and though at times I kissed the ground whenever I chanced across any music containing words, I did enjoy the new experience and spent many fun hours dancing to it, meeting folks, even ending up as a default coat check girl while taking a minute to rest under one of the illuminated flowers at the Lotus.
In my limited experience there did appear to be a much greater supply of electronic music and very few live groups. Gooferman (Love them) from SF and a friendly garage blues band way out at the back of the edge of the city were the only live musical groups I encountered aside from the opera singer, bagpiper and random guitar players. (Would love to hear about any live music experiences)
Having said that A group of my friends from Portland area have already decided to "do something". In this case provide a space for performance of and enjoyment of Classical & Contemporary (Very open to interpretation) music. We have a great 38 ft air conditioned Broken Arrow Dome just looking for musicians, choreographers, singers, poets, dancers, all kinds of perfomers any one interested in collaborating on multi media performace art, string quartet ??? Harp... Violin.. Cello.. Accordian.. Kazoo.. geographics do not really matter as long as you can read music. Vlad one of our friends is an excellent and extremely versatile young composer who is just waiting to write music just for you!
Ballroom Dance Anyone?
No photo yet but coming soon... I am new to this kind of forum and was told not having a photo might freak some people out.
One possible solution would be to have all rave camps located at the last street, however far back it is, with amps pointed towards the mountains, and something at the amps back to "absorb" some of the backflow from the amps.
The esplanade and other streets like 8:30 would then be utilized for any theme camp which didn't have loud music as a main component of their theme.
The loud music points outwards, and would make it easier for dance parties to move from camp to camp as they hear what pleases them.
Ravers happy, strollers who like to hear themselves chat happy, sleepers happy.
I've seen this argument so many times on tribe I'd say it was dead but after reading most of this thread It appears it's still very much alive and well.
What happened to placement of LSSA (kilowatt) camps at 10 & 2 o'clock?
Is the 300 watt limit for non-LSSA camps and art-cars, um I mean "mutant-vehicles" the running joke?
Do most of theme camps/art-cars fudge on their application when filling out the "amplified sound" section?
Is it time for a "sound-police" division of the Black Rock Rangers dedicated to solving noise-complaint issues??
Something like a 80db limit at 50' for non-LSSA camps?
Good questions to be asking the org at: complaints(at)burningman(dot)com
-Cheers, Bruno (Camp Wrong/Wrong Radio)
Tradeoffs would be:
noise aimed at gerlach
no perfectly quiet areas for hushville (not that they actually got that this year)
dead esplande especially at night.
other wise I kinda like it.
taz
Sticking Up for the Man
Whiners who tar Burning Man as a giant, dopey rave should lighten (or light) up.
By Andrew John Ignatius Vontz
Published: Wednesday, September 10, 2003
Burning Man 2002. As the first crepuscular rays of a red dawn encroached on the inky darkness of the Nevada spacescape, I found myself dancing full tilt with about five hundred other revelers to the sounds of hyper-digital psy-trance in front of the Bass Waves Marina sound system.
Situated at the very edge of Black Rock City, the Bass Waves camp projected the loudest, crispest, highest-pressure wall of sound I had ever heard at Burning Man, though the sonic bombardment pointed away from the city and out into the emptiness of the playa. The system ran every night, all night, and in spite of its purposeful positioning in what the Burning Man organization terms the "large-scale sound art" zone in the city's hinterlands (an area reserved for all sound systems boasting more than three-hundred watts of power), it could still often be heard as far away as Center Camp.
For me and thousands of other electronic music fans, this astonishingly muscular sound system was a welcome gift, drawing us in night after night to be literally moved, vibrated, and elevated to a higher dance experience.
But as things often shake out at Burning Man, not everyone felt the same way.
As the oppressive burning ball of sun crested the horizon, heralding the beginning of our final excruciatingly hot day at Burning Man, an art car decorated as a military vehicle -- replete with what looked like a .50-caliber machine gun mounted in the back -- rolled up to the edge of the dance floor. The car's occupants were clad in the cookie-cutter black leather/shoulder pads/combat boots/punk rock haircuts sartorial modality favored by the vast majority of Burning Man's Department of Public Works volunteers, the people responsible for building the infrastructure of the temporary city we had all come to enjoy.
After popping a few beers, the Mad Max doppelgängers took turns pointing what turned out to be an ear-splitting air gun at the crowd of dancers in Middle Eastern garb and firing for the next twenty minutes nonstop, sometimes repositioning the vehicle behind dancers so as to startle the living bejesus out of whoever was unlucky enough to be the object of their attention.
Awesome, guys! What a fucking radical mode of self-expression!
The sum effect of these actions was the destruction of whatever cheery sunrise vibe existed on the dance floor; unfortunately, echoes of that destruction immediately crept online after Burning Man 2002 was officially over. Just days after the glitter and tribal face paint had been cleaned off and the geodesic dome shade structures had been lovingly tucked away in storage until next year, the blissed-out smiles and butterfly wings of the week had dissolved, replaced with the flaming, bare-knuckles rhetoric of some really pissed-off people.
The official message board at BurningMan.com was soon consumed by a thread titled "Less Rave More Anything."
"I noticed that this year there was too many rave tents with fancy names," wrote the anonymous poster. "Music playing across the playa with no one there. Maybe there should be more alternative music camps. What happened to Jazz, Rock, Reggae. ... I loved it but worry it will turn into a big Rave as years go by. That would be a shame. Anybody else feel the same?"
This was a profoundly odd statement, as every genre of music in existence -- including the aforementioned jazz, rock, and reggae -- had enjoyed representation at Burning Man. But the stigmatization of the relentlessly hyped counterculture event as one big rave persisted; over the course of the next several months, it became clear that many people did indeed feel the same as the person who started the thread. In short order, the heavy traffic on the "Less Rave More Anything" thread (which would eventually top 2,200 posts) rapidly escalated into an openly hostile rhetorical war over the nature of music at Burning Man.
"I wouldn't mind the amount of 'rave' crap going on if it was better music," wrote one poster in reply. "It kind of blows me away that there are so many camps with huge setups that are playing nothing more than crappy TRANCE and pedestrian HOUSE."
"The DJ infestation made me cry last year when I returned to my first BM in five years," wrote another.
So did this year's Burning Man -- held once again in Black Rock over Labor Day weekend -- make anyone cry?
Probably. But it shouldn't have. If you don't like something you see, hear, feel, or smell at Burning Man, you generally can pedal your bike or walk for about thirty seconds in the opposite direction and find something that's bright, shiny, and suitably mind-blowing. Then again, like the crippling heat that has baked the playa for the past three years, you can never totally escape noise. It's the nature of the beast, and to read complaints about the 2002 event for months afterwards bordered on the ridiculous, especially when you consider that electronic music, while certainly prevalent at Burning Man, has been under heavy attack from the government and mainstream media for the better part of two years, most recently with the passage of the R.A.V.E. Act.
Regardless of people's musical preferences, it seems that if there is any place on earth where those who love electronic music should be left alone to have fun, it should be Burning Man. When you consider that the event's overlords envisioned it as an experiment in radical self-expression and radical self-reliance, printed the motto "no spectators" on tickets, allowed anyone to apply to set up their own sound system in the large-scale "sound art" zone at the edge of the city, and banned sound systems more powerful than three hundred watts from being operated outside that zone, you have to wonder why people would waste their time complaining because they're hearing music they don't like. Camps and individuals responsible for large-scale sound-art installations spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours planning and building their camps -- and anyone who doesn't like what they hear is free to spend their own time and money to build a sound system more suited to their personal tastes.
Or again, you could just walk thirty seconds in the other direction.
These facts seem self-evident. But rather than taking action, the E-Playa prior to Burning Man 2003 was abuzz with people content to barb, jab, and complain.
At the festival itself, I was indeed confronted by numerous people, situations, and sounds not specifically engineered to enhance my own personal enjoyment while co-inhabiting a temporary city containing more than thirty thousand other people. A schoolbus full of gutter punks across the street from my tent were in the habit of singing along to bad metal blaring over their sound system and commanding passersby to stick playa boogers to a piece of plywood in front of the bus every evening at sunset, just as I was trying to sneak in my nightly disco nap.
Furthermore, a truck with what seemed like a much bigger than three-hundred-watt sound system drove down our block at 6 o'clock one morning blaring classical music, and a gag-inducing Kenny G-inflected style of sax-ridden house drifted from a bar a few blocks over for the better part of every day and night.
Boo-hoo. I didn't really care.
Bass Waves wasn't back this year because of financial constraints, but I got my groove on at a dozen sound systems I'd never visited before, and one that's been a favorite in the past: the San Francisco Space Cowboys crew's mobile party military vehicle. As I danced to Underworld's "Two Months Off" and Scott Hardkiss' "Infinitely Gentle Blows" while the sun rose Saturday morning, the aural torture various friends and neighbors had inflicted on me for the better part of the week evaporated. Hundreds of complete strangers -- people naked and painted and costumed, including one extra-happy dude tooting enthusiastically into a pan flute that could be heard over the music -- had gathered to share a pleasant moment in the middle of a desert on a dry lake bed in Nevada while millions of Americans were just about to wake up and mow their lawns or go to the temple or play golf or whatever it was they did to start their Saturdays.
Any temporary hardships -- or sonic inconveniences -- we'd endured to reach this point seemed piddlingly inconsequential in comparison to such a joyous event. In fact, I didn't even think about them at all. I was too busy having fun.
Then you weren't looking too hard. My camp had live 'jam band' music every day. Not my cup of tea, but there were members of String Cheese Incident, the singer of Spearhead, etc. camping with us and they were rocking out daily. Center camp had loads of live music. Everywhere I turned this year it was live music out the wazoo. If you didn't hear it, you weren't riding your bike far enough.
And how about Hamzalila (sp?)? Wow, they rock. I stumbled across them last year and even though I have an aversion to live music, I loved it. They had multiple gigs this year as well.
All in all, another pioneering year on the playa. Just what Buckskin Rogers likes to see!
sorry but it's Burning Man and it seems raves are a big part of it (if you like it or not), no two ways about it, and no good raves stop before 5am.
and me personally would rather be camped near a rave camp and have continuous music instead of some art car, guy with bullhorn, or other loud as being come strolling by every 1/2 hour waking me up. Just my opinion.
One of my best memories of Burning Man:
My friend Carl stumbles out of his tent a few minutes after the Deep End started, bleary, wild-eyed, stumbling. "They can't DO that -- jesus, it's DAYTIME, can't they let people SLEEP!" I laughed and laughed and laughed. Carl had spent the previous night on top of the bus jacking the playa with block-rocking beats of his own. And he's great.
I hate electronica, by and large. Loved the Deep End for the wake-up call.
I'd deregulate the whole thing. If you want to look at art in the desert quietly, start another event because this one has evolved into a party. If your event attracts more artists.....you can deal with partying however you want. I personally have found a couple other quieter things to satisfy my quiet urges. But the Burn is not it.
Another great memory: 4am, Wednesday. A-Dawg, on some combination of ketamine/acid/E/mushrooms/blow/whatever, stands on top of the bus having managed to start the generator and turn on an electric bass amp. He doesn't play bass to my knowledge. It SOUNDS....like....well, he's turned everything up to 10 and is going at it with some enthusiasm. There must be a few pedals connected, too. It's just a mess but it sure is fucking loud. Several people holler to "turn that shit off" but he can't hear them. Hell, even if he stops I'm sure the ringing keeps going for a bit. He starts in on a new "groove" in a time-signature known only to him. A neighbor tromps into camp with the intention of dismasting this boat. He's met by Kelly and others who tell him that "look, we don't like it either but it's what he wanted to do right now. If you touch that generator we're going to kick your ass. If you wanted quiet, well, you picked the wrong corner of Nevada for your vacation." A-Dawg lost interest about ten minutes later and the desert slowly subsided into silence. Just the sound of laughter in the distance. I loved that.
At the risk of adding to an already ridiculously long thread:
One thing I'm planning to bring this year is a small extra pup-tent; so that if I find myself getting cranky from too much sound one night I'll take the tent and a sleeping bag to the farthest reaches of the walk-in camping area and get a good night's sleep. Amazing what that can do for your attitude. In fact, if you're so inclined, get in your car, pay the $20 reentry fee at the gate and drive 5 or 10 miles out into the playa for a night of star-gazing. One night away from BM won't kill you, and may make the rest of your experience that much better.
You'll be far more successful controlling your own experience than attempting to control others.
Ear plugs.
Not that I need them, years of flying on jet aircraft and listening to the Nuge.
But thats just me.
KK
There was an Italian premier just before Mussolini, and somebody asked him if it was difficult to govern
Italians, and he said,
“Difficult to govern Italians? No, not difficult. Only useless.”
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telling anyone "this is what they must do" seems to really piss off burners.
I almost though this post was a joke.. just to start shit. holy moly long thread.
But Randomizer... that is a FANTASTIC idea... just you and some friends... ambient camping... play music, or don't, etc.... very good. Do you mediate? =)
